Politics, NAFTA & Gas Prices

Past-E-Mail: Various Topics: Politics and Religion, Ketchup or Gravy: Politics, NAFTA & Gas Prices
FRNash/PHX, AZ (Frnash) on Wednesday, March 12, 2008 - 02:15 pm:

I see that rising gas prices are a major subject of discussion in today's What'sUP, including mention of China and India's insatiable demand for oil.

Maybe we should be careful who we vote for, lest we wind up with a president and/or a party in control of the US House and/or Senate that would "get us out of NAFTA", thereby encouraging our biggest foreign oil supplier to sell the bulk of their oil to China. Are you prepared for $10.00/gallon gas prices?

1. From Financial Times (London)…
Click ® FT.com: Candidates' Nafta stance stirs Canada
2. From globeandmail.com (Canada)…
Click ® ReportonBusiness.com: Oil is Canada's ace in any revisiting of NAFTA

By Deb S. (Usedtobeayooper) on Wednesday, March 12, 2008 - 04:25 pm:

Thank you FRNash! Would it surprise anyone if this happened? Common sense does seem to be lacking in DC when it comes time to spend our tax dollars. Maybe we just need to lose the part of NAFTA that sits below CA, AZ, NM and TX.
Mr. Deb

By Snowman (Snowman) on Wednesday, March 12, 2008 - 06:39 pm:

Maybe we should just start walking. There's no cure for the oil scam.

By Deb S. (Usedtobeayooper) on Wednesday, March 12, 2008 - 06:49 pm:

Sure there is, but they're the ones spending all their time running for re-election.

By Peter Osmar (Pcosmar) on Wednesday, March 12, 2008 - 06:51 pm:

This is a mixture of two false assumptions.
First, that NAFTA is or has anything to do with FREE TRADE.
It does not. It is managed trade and like everything that the government manages, it is poorly managed.
Second that politicians have any intention to go against their corporate managers.
I doubt that either Obama or Clinton would do anything but continue NAFTA or restructure it to make it even worse.
They may make those promises to get elected, but have no intention going against their Globalist masters.
I would fully expect that they will continue along with Bush"s SPP and usher in the North American Union.

By Deb S. (Usedtobeayooper) on Wednesday, March 12, 2008 - 08:00 pm:

Peter, I didn't mean just the presidential candidates, I menat congress as a whole. Once they're elected, most of their time and energy is spent trying to remain on the public dole.

By Peter Osmar (Pcosmar) on Wednesday, March 12, 2008 - 09:50 pm:

Deb S. (Usedtobeayooper)
That is true. most people don't look at the positions of the people they elect, how they have voted in the past, who they are connected to, etc.
They hear a couple sound bites, see the slick marketing, or vote party line.
Most in office today are Collectivists. It does not matter which party, they will follow the program laid out by others.
If the Constitution was followed, we would see much less of this. Collectivists find the Constitution to be a hindrance, and circumvent it as often as possible.

By Deb S. (Usedtobeayooper) on Wednesday, March 12, 2008 - 11:59 pm:

Deb and I are delegates to our county convention this weekend, should be interesting. Any thoughts or ideas we can take with us would be much appreciated. It is Minnesota, but I think we're still part of the U.S.
Mr. Deb

By Peter Osmar (Pcosmar) on Thursday, March 13, 2008 - 08:44 am:

I commend you for getting involved as delegates.
Any "Ideas" would depend on the goals, and finding out where candidates stand on key issues.
What do you believe is the proper role of government is? How about Individual sovereignty? National sovereignty?
Are you in favor of a one world Government(New World Order)?
Both the Media and our Educational System have done a good job of confusing the issues.
Fortunately, we have these plastic Libraries in front of us (WWW) and can research both history and present current events. It just takes a little time.

By k j (Kathiscc) on Thursday, March 13, 2008 - 04:32 pm:

I have a comment to make and this seems to be as good a place to make it as any. (Doesn't really fit into any of the labels I have found here).
Just got off the phone with the appliance place in town. Asked how much it would be to get the new antenna, amplifier (we are far away from big cities) and rotor and the 2 converter boxes we need to convert our 2 TV's to digital. About $600-including the rebate on the 2 boxes. Now isn't that how much we are supposed to get from the government? Don't you think it is too much of a coincidence that everyone must convert, so everyone gets this money? Oh, it MAY go back into the economy? Well, yeah, I guess so. Don't you think they knew they would have mass uprisings if they didn't pay for it? Why not just install it free?

By Peter Osmar (Pcosmar) on Thursday, March 13, 2008 - 04:54 pm:

k j (Kathiscc)
This has been coming for 10 years.
You would be much better off to get satellite.
Either DISH or Direct TV are much cheaper than that.

By Marianne Y (Marianne) on Thursday, March 13, 2008 - 05:01 pm:

Umm, I think the federal government will give a coupon for qualified people for $40 for the converter box. It could be for a box for each TV, but I'm not sure about that part. I have not clue about the rest. I think that's all you get off.

We are getting really messed around by our cable company (Charter). Our latest bill contains an increase of about 12%, or in that neighborhood. They claim that it's not an increase, but that their promotion from last year just expired. We've been offered a "promotion" every year for the last 3 to 5 years. But, they don't have any promotions this year, or at least there were none in their computer, when I called a week ago. Hmm, that's a price increase, at least in my book, and in my budget. I don't see how they can call it anything else. And, oh btw, there was no warning at all on this--it just showed up on our bill that is due soon.

By Kathy P. (Katiaire) on Thursday, March 13, 2008 - 06:08 pm:

Peter, in my book, it still doesn't make it right even if there has been a 10 yr warning (?).
I resent the government pushing me into another expense. Cable etc is a monthly fee and would eat up the $600 in no time.
And yes,Marianne, the government is allowing a $40 rebate on each converter box (limit of two rebates), each of which cost $60, and there isn't any mention of the necessary new antenna.

By Snowman (Snowman) on Thursday, March 13, 2008 - 06:21 pm:

Took me a while to decide that the "dish" was the way to go. We had our own dish, you know, the big six footer sittin' in the yard. That was a waste of money. Then we switched to cable but the groundhog kept chewing on the cable, we got sick of watching the TV turn to snow. We finally switched to Dish Network. The satellite is the way to go. Those of you that don't have the "little pizza dish" should check into it. It's the way to go.

By David Hiltunen (Davidcorrytontn) on Thursday, March 13, 2008 - 07:42 pm:

I hear we are going to hit close to $ 4.00 a gallon by summer and it might go higher!!Want gasoline prices to come down?

We need to take some intelligent, united action. The oil companies just laughed at that because they knew we wouldn't continue to 'hurt' ourselves by refusing to buy gas.

By now you're probably thinking gasoline priced at about $2.00 is super cheap. Me too! It is currently $3.15 for regular unleaded in my town.
Teach them that BUYERS control the marketplace...not sellers.

The only way we are going to see the price of gas come down is if we hit someone in the pocketbook by not purchasing their gas! And, we can do that WITHOUT hurting ourselves.

But we CAN have an impact on gas prices if we all act together to force a price war.

Here's the idea: For the rest of this year, DON'T purchase ANY gasoline from the two biggest companies (which now are one), EXXON and MOBIL

If they are not selling any gas, they will be inclined to reduce their prices..If they reduce their prices, the other companies will have to follow suit.

But to have an impact, we need to reach literally millions of Exxon and Mobil gas buyers. It's really simple to do! Now, don't wimp out on me at this point...keep reading and I'll explain how simple it is to reach millions of people!!

I am sending this note to 30 people. If each of us send it to at least ten more (30 x 10 = 300) .. and those 300 send it to at least ten more (300 x 10 = 3,000)...and so on, by the time the message reaches the sixth group of people, we will have reached over THREE MILLION consumers.
If those three million get excited and pass this on to ten friends each, then 30 million people will have been contacted!

If it goes one level further, you guessed it..... THREE HUNDRED MILLION PEOPLE!!!

How long would all that take? If each of us sends this e-mail out to ten more people within one day of receipt, all 300 MILLION people could conceivably be contacted within the next 8 days!!

If this makes sense to you, please pass this message on.I suggest that we not buy from EXXON/MOBIL UNTIL THEY LOWER THEIR PRICES TO THE $2.00 RANGE AND KEEP THEM DOWN.THIS CAN REALLY WORK.

Again, all you have to do is send this to 10 people. That's all!

By Peter Osmar (Pcosmar) on Thursday, March 13, 2008 - 07:59 pm:

David Hiltunen (Davidcorrytontn)
Do you get this SPAM too?

I don't even read it anymore.Just delete.

By Peter Osmar (Pcosmar) on Thursday, March 13, 2008 - 08:15 pm:

Part of the reason our fuel prices are up is that we are bombing the crap out of the places that sell it. Cutting the supply and angering the sellers.
Our laws have prevented the building of refineries and the drilling for oil in this country.
Alternative technologies are stifled by excessive regulation and little incentive.

The other reason is the falling Dollar. As the Dollar fails, it's value goes down, and it buys less.
The cost of everything goes up.
The more money printed out of thin air, like the 200 billion bailout on bad investments, drives the Dollar down more.
It is called the inflation tax.

By Heikki (Heikki) on Thursday, March 13, 2008 - 10:40 pm:

Boycotting certain companies/stations won't do a darn thing. The only thing that will work is reducing our consumption. When the demand goes down the price will follow. If we as consumers would declare war on OPEC and oil companies by reducing our consumption by even 10%, we'd be surprised at the result. But no, I don't see any evidence of motorists reducing their speed or accelerating slowly. They drive as though gas was $.50/gal! I realize that people who still work find it hard to reduce their driving unless car pooling is a viable alternative. Being retired, Precious and I have vowed to reduce our driving by 50%. It's a bit of a shock at first, but we are now used to it. We did a lot of needless driving in the past. We have to change our lifestyles with respect to gas guzzlers and sane driving habits if we want to see the price at the pump drop. That's just the way it is for now. There are no quick fixes.

By k j (Kathiscc) on Thursday, March 13, 2008 - 11:26 pm:

Peter, Marianne and Snowman-Being just on the wrong side of I-90, at the very edge of the county, we probably won't get cable here for 20 more years (we don't have natural gas or DSL here, either). Direct TV- Dish Network are here, but offer us less channels (and cost @$50 a month) than we get with our current antenna (Chicago, Rockford, sometimes Madison). But, it's old. The TV's are not all that old, but are not digital. So 2 (of our 3) TV's get a new converter box. You are only allowed 2 rebates. We are between Rockford and Chicago, so to be able to get channels from both, and, because there are lots of trees here, we need the amplifier and the rotor. Without the rebates-$680, with rebates-$600. Even if we got 2 new TV's, with digital tuners, it would still be $560 for the antenna, etc. I have been to the government's website, the Rockford channel's website, the Winegard (antenna) website and have now talked to the appliance store and they all tell me the same thing. For our location, and I'm sure for many others, this is the only solution. So unless we want no television it is what we must do. I just think it's very interesting that this change has been mandated and now they are giving us this stipend. And, surprisingly enough, it's a wash.

By Peter Osmar (Pcosmar) on Thursday, March 13, 2008 - 11:48 pm:

k j (Kathiscc)
I know what you mean, I am in the UP. There are NO stations close. even with an antenna and an amplifier the US stations are fuzzy. I can pull in some Canadian stations better. No cable here. 1 mile away does, different Twp.
If you have telephone lines you should be able to get DSL, that is your local Phone co. They may not want to offer it, but a copper line is a copper line. That is all it takes to carry it. I had to pitch a fit, but I have DSL now.
Digital has been in the works for some time and all TV sets made in the last 10 years that I have bought are digital ready. If it comes with a cable connection it is Digital ready.
If you need to blame someone that would be the FCC, just one more Government agency we don't need.

By k j (Kathiscc) on Friday, March 14, 2008 - 10:31 am:

They have DSL down at the corner- other side of the tollway. They are not willing to bring it under the tollway for the total of 6 houses on this street at this far end of the county.
One government agency or another, it's still THEM.

By Iron Range Dave (Blackhawk) on Friday, March 14, 2008 - 10:47 am:

k j , Man your Directv must be gauging you. I have their plan which gets me local channels and their channels for about 60 bucks a month. They have plans that are as low as 30 bucks a month with a 5 dollar adder for local channels. I don't have the link at present but 600 bucks to get what you need seems really excessive to me. There is a website that gives antenna info and tells what you will need to buy to get your digital signals. You may not need to change what you have all ready. Also if you went to the dish their provided box will work with your TV's as their box does the tuning necessary for the digital end of it and you just feed the box output to your tv which would no longer function as a tuner but just a monitor to watch the picture.

By k j (Kathiscc) on Friday, March 14, 2008 - 10:49 am:

This is from the Best Buy site and I quote-

"What does "Digital Cable Ready" (or "DCR") mean?
Today, a television designated "Digital Cable Ready" (or "DCR") is able, when used in conjunction with a separate CableCARD™ module, to receive one-way digital cable signals — with full image quality — without the need for a traditional cable set-top box.
Are "Digital Cable Ready" and "integrated digital tuner" the same thing?
No. Although many TVs today will offer one or both of these features, it is important to know that they allow access to different forms of digital content:
"Digital Cable Ready" means the set has built-in technology that, when combined with a CableCARD, allows reception of encrypted digital programming from the cable company without the need for a set-top box.
An "integrated digital tuner," when combined with a sufficiently sized and properly positioned antenna, allows reception of unencrypted digital signals provided by local "over-the-air" broadcasters.
What is a CableCARD?
A CableCARD is a separate module which, once inserted into the corresponding slot on a Digital Cable Ready TV, connected to the incoming coaxial cable, and properly activated by the cable company, enables the delivery of one-way digital audio/video content from the local cable operator to the TV. Base CableCARD functionality includes service authorization, signal demodulation, billing authentication and copy protection.
What does "one-way" digital-cable-ready mean?
The current "plug-and-play" agreement between the cable industry and TV manufacturers provides for unidirectional, or "one-way" connectivity, meaning that a Digital Cable Ready TV is able to receive signals from the cable operator, but it cannot send signals, like a two-way digital cable set-top box can, to the cable operator to request access to additional services like video-on-demand.
What are the pros and cons of one-way Digital Cable Ready?
Receive all standard and high-definition digital cable signals without the need of a separate cable set-top box.
Simplify setup and connections to other audio/video devices.
Simplify TV operation through one remote and consistent user-interface.
Without the cable set-top box, you lose access to two-way services from your cable operator like video-on-demand, enhanced parental controls and, in many cases, an interactive programming guide.
You still have to lease the CableCARD from the cable operator for a nominal monthly fee (prices vary by cable operator).
How do I get a CableCARD to go with my new Digital Cable Ready TV?
Beginning July 1, 2004, nearly every local cable operator is required by the federal government to have cards available for consumers. Customers, regardless of whether they are new or current digital cable subscribers, must call the cable company to arrange delivery and installation of the CableCARD. Prices, programs, and installation timelines vary by cable operator.
Will one CableCARD work in more than one TV?
No. After your CableCARD device is installed and activated by a cable field technician, it is "bound" to the original Digital Cable Ready TV in which it was installed. In order for your CableCARD to operate properly in another Digital Cable Ready device, the CableCARD has to be re-installed in the new device by a field technician.
Can I take my CableCARD with me when I move to another city?
No. Your existing CableCARD must be returned to your local cable company prior to your move. Once you arrive in your new city, you must call the local cable operator to arrange delivery and installation of a new card."
So, unless you have cable, you still need "an integrated digital tuner" or a converter box.

By Deb S. (Usedtobeayooper) on Friday, March 14, 2008 - 11:03 am:

kj, we've been on satellite for over 10 years now because we live in techno wasteland also. Our area was about the last one in the state to get cable and when it did arrive, it left a whole bunch to be desired. The local phone company also was awarded the cable rights by the city and so had the power to do as they pleased. They refused to interconnect with any other city as far as education local channels and had close to the worst programming selections I've ever seen. We live just far enough out in the boonies so that with an antenna, we can watch most programs in a snowstorm. We've had both major satellite providers, and as soon as the contract runs out on our current one, we'll be swithching back to the original. Depending on what programming package you choose, it is about the same as cable.

By Iron Range Dave (Blackhawk) on Friday, March 14, 2008 - 11:07 am:

To get back to the gas price issue you all must understand the oil companies do not control the price of a barrel of oil contrary to what some people might think. The price is set by world market conditions and my company must buy off that market just like anybody else. At the present time our refining margin is actually lower than it was several years ago. We are not making as much as we were even last year. Regulations and a NIMBY mentality prevent us from realizing all of our capabilites to find and produce oil in our part of the world. India and China at the present time are going thru their industrial revolution at present and they are demanding crude oil like never before. Also even when there is a surplus we do not have the refining capacity to process it all here. This country imports a significiant amount of gasoline just to meet the needs of our country. Trying to get a refinery built in this country would be almost impossible with the siting requirements necessary. Even expanding a refinery is proving to be very difficult as meeting your existing emissions permits isn't good enough. No, the Greenies want you to not discharge anymore than you all ready do even IF you all ready have an existing permit that would allow you to do it. My company is trying to satisfy them in the Chicago area but the technology doesn't exist. We are giving boatloads of money to several universities to come up with the technology but if we don't succeed we may not be able to expand the refinery to process cheaper North American crude from Tar Sands projects in Canada and the US. Finding and bringing that technology to market costs money which means we need to make some money to reinvest for a situation like this.

By Deb S. (Usedtobeayooper) on Friday, March 14, 2008 - 11:14 am:

Very good points Dave! I think the thing that twists a lot of folks shorts is the fact that oil companies posted record profits in the midst of all of this. Of course all we know for sure is what the media tells us, and we know they would never steer us wrong......
(look for the dripping sarcasm in that last statement)

By k j (Kathiscc) on Friday, March 14, 2008 - 11:28 am:

Iron Range Dave (Blackhawk)- they aren't gouging us because we don't have it. Nor will we. We have been to every website and talked to many people about this and we will be getting the antenna. Every time they introduce something new here, they let us all know- they know we are all waiting for it and I'm telling you that they only offer us like 20 channels, nothing local-no premium channels- for $50 a month. That's one year of Dish=$600= same cost of the antenna-and after we get the new antenna and converter boxes it's free tv. When we need new TVs they will still work with the antenna and still be free TV (won't need the converter boxes then). When you are on a fixed income as we are, a monthly fee that can go up with the whims of the satelite companies and you get so little in return is not a viable option.

By Iron Range Dave (Blackhawk) on Friday, March 14, 2008 - 12:30 pm:

That's too bad as it sounds like a deal my father-in-law had when he first got DirecTv. You had to purchase the programming thru a local provider, in his case Baraga telephone. He paid more than I did for the same stuff because they got to surcharge it. I never understood this as they didn't have to maintain anything at all. You bought the satellite, the reciever, and cable yourself. The programming which you set up thru Baraga Telephone was identical to mine. Someday when AT&T gets it act totally together you will be able to get your TV thru the phone line. You will only need one line to your house to carry phone, DSL, and TV if you wish. Some people all ready have this arrangment thru their cable company here in Toledo, OH.

By Iron Range Dave (Blackhawk) on Friday, March 14, 2008 - 12:44 pm:

Deb, We are convienent whipping boys on the profit end. Even though I work in the business it is hard to talk your parents etc on fixed incomes with what big oil has made lately. I won't try and justify it either but I want people to understand there is more to the picture than media etc would have you beleive. Here in OH gas is about 3.40 a gallon of which approximately 2.50 or so is strictly due to the price of a barrel of oil. When oil was 50 dollars a barrel, refining was not the place to be. We lost a lot of money for my company and they at one time would have passed us on to the independants long ago. I feel thankful to be where I am at.

By Deb S. (Usedtobeayooper) on Friday, March 14, 2008 - 01:09 pm:

Until the oil and auto industries, as well as the boys and girls in DC, allow the technology that is out there to be used, we are at the mercy of the almighty barrel. Sad, but true.
Sorry I forgot to sign the last one, this is Mr. Deb. I have an identity all my own......my wife told me I could. :]

By Iron Range Dave (Blackhawk) on Friday, March 14, 2008 - 01:41 pm:

Mr. Deb,
See how nice that is, no one can tell who you are. I'm one who thinks you can throw a lot of money at certain things and come up with a fix. As much money as we are spending in Iraq, and I support our troops, I think that money could be better used on the technology end to come up with a viable fuel cell or something to power cars. It might mean the end of my job but in the long run I could probably utilize my EE degree in that field too. Identity all your own Huh? I see there is a ladies only posting here and they are just daring us guys to jump in!

By Deb S. (Usedtobeayooper) on Friday, March 14, 2008 - 02:01 pm:

And I'll continue to keep my distance from it. Had an electrical inspector who said something about the two E's in electrical engineer, but it wasn't flattering to you guys so we'll just save that for another time.
There was a radio call-in talk show back in the 90's (late night) that would have topics from baseball to nuclear energy and most nights was fairly tame. However, one night a man called in with what he claimed were plan and such for engines that would run on any number of things besides gasoline. He claimed that these plans/possibly patents had been bought up by the oil industry to keep the country dependant on oil. He wasn't on long and didn't divulge too much, even had the host a little baffled. We did learn from the host that the FBI wanted to know who this guy was. Never heard any more after that on the subject.
Mr. Deb

By Peter Osmar (Pcosmar) on Friday, March 14, 2008 - 03:32 pm:

I have been an advocate of Hydrogen power since high school. Everybody thought I was crazy back then too.
It works and the Technology is available.
However there is a Catch 22.
Nobody is going to retool and produce Cars, Trucks and Aircraft on a massive scale to replace all the Petro burners,until there are fuel stations on every corner.
Nobody is going to produce the millions of gallons of hydrogen fuel and build all the fuel stations, if there are not vehicles to use it.
It may change, but not easily and not right away.

By Deb S. (Usedtobeayooper) on Friday, March 14, 2008 - 03:36 pm:

Whenever hydrogen is mentioned, images of the Hindenburg keep coming to mind. I'm guessing the safety measures are a little better now.
Mr. Deb

By Peter Osmar (Pcosmar) on Friday, March 14, 2008 - 05:45 pm:

Deb S. (Usedtobeayooper)
"Whenever hydrogen is mentioned, images of the Hindenburg keep coming to mind. I'm guessing the safety measures are a little better now.
Mr. Deb"

Much safer, though the Zeppelin's safety record was pretty good till then.
You can see trucks transporting Hydrogen on the highways every day, though production would need to be increased.
As far a safe, how many natural gas explosions turn homes to toothpicks or how many other fuel fires happen every day? any fuel can be mishandled,and accidents happen. Hydrogen is less dangerous than LP or acetylene.
It has been used in the past and will be again.
Fuel cells have been around for years, they just have not been developed.
It can be run in internal combustion, though it seems that fuel cells are the direction that is being taken.
It will just take time to change over.

By Deb S. (Usedtobeayooper) on Friday, March 14, 2008 - 05:53 pm:

As a fuel source, not taking the massive changeover costs into account, what would the costs and emissions impact be? I don't know much at all about hydrogen as a fuel source and now you've got me nervous about home heating. LOL We use LP.
Mr. Deb

By Peter Osmar (Pcosmar) on Friday, March 14, 2008 - 07:25 pm:

Burning Hydrogen and Oxygen gives you Water vapor and a small amount of Hydrogen peroxide.
Hydrogen peroxide breaks down into water and free oxygen.
Pretty clean.

By Deb S. (Usedtobeayooper) on Friday, March 14, 2008 - 07:31 pm:

How about cost per unit of fuel? Cheaper than gasoline? I can see why there is so much resistance to change, all the larger cities would probably lose their warming blanket of smog in the winter.

By Tom (Tom) on Saturday, March 15, 2008 - 10:37 am:

Producing hydrogen requires a lot of oil and water and electricity. To produce it on the scale needed would not save much oil. That is what I got from a DOW engineer.
Or something like that.

By Peter Osmar (Pcosmar) on Saturday, March 15, 2008 - 11:18 am:

Hydrogen has not been exploited as a fuel for many reasons, Fear (Hindenberg) and the abundance of oil mainly.
The only thing needed to produce it are Electricity and Water. Oil is used to produce Electricty, but is not necessary. Wind farms and offshore Nuclear plants could be used.
The technology is being explored, but it is 30 or 40 years late.
Fuel cells and Hydrogen generators are the main focus at this time.
The change would be difficult and will be expensive at first, but costs would come down with mass acceptance and improved efficiency
A Google Search takes seconds, and there is a lot of information available..

By Marianne Y (Marianne) on Sunday, March 16, 2008 - 10:01 pm:

I am wondering if the huge jump in gas prices, from a week ago Thursday to this past Tues, anyway, might have had something to do with a changeover to the summer gas blend, or whatever, in Wisconsin, I believe it is, that also hurts those of us in Michigan, in gas prices?

I don't quite understand that connection, though. I have noticed over the past few years that after you get a few miles west of the Mackinac Bridge in the UP, the octane for the gasoline all drops, across the board. I believe that the lower octane stuff would all be coming from the refinery that makes the Wisconsin gas. But where is the higher octane gas, that the eastern part of the UP gets, as well as the whole lower peninsula (at least that I am aware of) gets, coming from? Why the difference in octane levels? And, if it is a different seasonal blend from the Wisconsin blend, then why would we be paying a penalty here in the rest of Michigan, for Wisconsin's summer blend, if that is not even what we are getting?

Another part that perplexes me is that according to numbers in today's Detroit newspapers, is that their gas farther downstate seems to be as much as $0.20/gallon less than ours is, from mid-Michigan up to Houghton, for whatever reason(s)?

By Peter Osmar (Pcosmar) on Sunday, March 16, 2008 - 10:54 pm:

It is a couple things. Transportation costs are up, due to $4.00 a gal diesel. The dollar is going down, so it takes more per barrel. $200 billion to bail out bad investments, printed out of thin air, devalues all the money in circulation.
And we keep threatening to attack Iran. The tension is driving up cost, and cutting supply.
The lunatics are running the asylum.

By A. David Archibald (Yooperatheart61) on Sunday, March 16, 2008 - 10:59 pm:

You sure said a mouthful!!

By Marianne Y (Marianne) on Monday, March 17, 2008 - 09:08 am:

Peter, I assume that you were not attempting to answer my questions above, since what you said doesn't make any sense, at least as potential answers to my specific questions. I hope that those who have some knowledge of what is going on will try answer my questions, if they can, please. :-)

Why is gas higher in the UP and at least the northern half of the lower peninsula than in southern Michigan? Why is the gas in the western part of the UP lower octane than the eastern UP & the rest of Michigan? Are the possible seasonal blends for Wisconsin responsible for the western UP gas prices? Why doesn't the price go down, as you go east and south, where we have higher octane gas, since we don't have the expensive seasonal additive required by Wisconsin? Why the differences in gas pricing, within the state of Michigan? Why is gas more expensive in Michigan than much of the rest of the country?

By Peter Osmar (Pcosmar) on Monday, March 17, 2008 - 09:36 am:

"Why is gas more expensive in Michigan than much of the rest of the country?"

Transporting fuel to the UP cost more.
But that is only one factor. There are also taxes, and other service charges.
The fact is that Michigan is NOT the most expensive.

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California $3.634 $3.868 $3.932 $4.180

Hawaii $3.620 $3.828 $3.900 $4.042

New York $3.394 $3.631 $3.709 $4.283

Oregon $3.462 $3.652 $3.707 $3.946

Michigan $3.337 $3.534 $3.676 $4.174

New Jersey $3.054 $3.274 $3.398 $4.010

Wyoming $3.096 $3.228 $3.439 $3.823

This is just a sample, but there are variables from state to state and within each state.

By Snowman (Snowman) on Monday, March 17, 2008 - 09:42 am:

Marianne, Peter did answer your question. "The lunatics are running the asylum".

By Marianne Y (Marianne) on Monday, March 17, 2008 - 10:58 am:

If you have been following the thread, we have been talking about gas that has been $3.50, plus, a gallon, from mid-Michigan to Houghton. I do not feel that my questions have been answered, I am still looking for others how might have answers on the variations for me to chime in, please, not just the same old... Thanks. :-)

By Snowman (Snowman) on Monday, March 17, 2008 - 11:16 am:

Marianne, ask Bush or Cheney or better yet, contact the governor of Michigan.

By Peter Osmar (Pcosmar) on Monday, March 17, 2008 - 11:36 am:

well I expect it to go above $4.00 very soon and $5.00 not long after.
Watching the Stock market crashing this morning is Interesting, but not at all surprising.
This has been warned about for years. While the Talking Heads in the Media have been saying that "the Market is Strong, Robust,Great" others have known and spoken the truth.
This has been coming for a while, but those that warned an spoke out were derided as Nuts.
Do you really believe that the Federal Reserve has your best interest at heart? Do you believe that the Federal Reserve is a Federal agency?
It is not.
This is a plan that was started long ago. Do you Really want to know?
Are you ready to take the "Red Pill".

The Federal Reserve was created under President Wilson.
His close adviser at that time was Colonal Mandell House, He said this.

"“Soon, every American will be required to register their biological property in a national system designed to keep track of the people and that will operate under the ancient system of pledging. By such methodology, we can compel people to submit to our agenda, which will effect our security as a chargeback for our fiat paper currency. Every American will be forced to register or suffer being unable to work and earn a living. They will be our chattel, and we will hold the security interest over them forever, by operation of the law merchant under the scheme of secured transactions”.

“Americans, by unknowingly or unwittingly delivering the bills of lading to us will be rendered bankrupt and insolvent, forever to remain economic slaves through taxation, secured by their pledges. They will be stripped of their rights and given a commercial value designed to make us a profit and they will be none the wiser, for not one man in a million could ever figure our plans and, if by accident one or two should figure it out, we have in our arsenal plausible deniability. After all, this is the only logical way to fund government, by floating liens and debt to the registrants in the form of benefits and privileges. This will inevitably reap to us huge profits beyond our wildest expectations and leave every American a contributor to this fraud which we will call `Social Insurance.’ Without realizing it, every American will insure us for any loss we may incur and in this manner, every American will unknowingly be our servant, however begrudgingly. The people will become helpless and without any hope for their redemption and, we will employ the high office of the President of our dummy corporation to foment this plot against America.”

Colonal Mandell House, the founder of the CFR, from a meeting he had with Woodrow Wilson in 1910.""

The rabbit hole gets much deeper. If you want to go down that path. Otherwise go back to sleep.
Everything is fine.

By Peter Osmar (Pcosmar) on Monday, March 17, 2008 - 11:56 am:

Snowman (Snowman) said,
" Marianne, ask Bush or Cheney or better yet, contact the governor of Michigan."

I have no love for Bush. But just blaming Bush is is missing the mark.
This has been in the works before Bush's daddy got into politics.
Do you really think there is any real difference between "R" and "D"?
Those are two heads of the same coin. It is an illusion of choice.

"“The Council on Foreign Relations (CFR) is the American Branch of a society which originated in England … (and) … believes national boundaries should be obliterated and one-world rule established.”

Carroll Quigley, member of Council on Foreign Relations (CFR), mentor to Bill Clinton, quote from “Tragedy and Hope”, 1966""

"“We shall have world government, whether or not we like it. The only question is whether world government will be achieved by conquest or consent”.

Paul Warburg(member of the Council on Foreign Relations and architect of the 1913 Federal Reserve Act) in a speech to the US Senate, 17 February 1950.""

And a few gems from mister Henry Kissinger.

"“Who controls the food supply controls the people; who controls energy can control whole continents; who controls money controls the world.”

Dr. Henry kissinger

“NAFTA is a major stepping stone to the New World Order.”

Dr. Henry Kissinger

“Today America would be outraged if U.N. troops entered Los Angeles to restore order; tomorrow they will be grateful! This is especially true if they were told that there were an outside threat from beyond, whether real or promulgated, that threatened our very existence. When presented with this scenario, individual rights will be willingly relinquished for the guarantee of their well-being granted to them by the World Government.”

Dr. Henry Kissinger - Evian-Les-Bains, France 1991""

By Matt Karhu (Matt_k) on Monday, March 17, 2008 - 03:49 pm:

How to drive your neighbors nuts: Buy your wife a new SUV and yourself a new P/U truck that get 10 to 12 mpg. (I never did like those neighbors very much, they were constant complainers.)

By Snowman (Snowman) on Monday, March 17, 2008 - 04:12 pm:

I'm gonna drive to Wyoming to gas up with the low rate. Then, on the way home I'll gas up in Wisconsin and get the "good stuff".

By Peter Osmar (Pcosmar) on Monday, March 17, 2008 - 07:09 pm:

Matt Karhu (Matt_k)

Where I am at 4wd is a necessity, not a luxury.
All of ours get 20 to 22 mpg, but I am considering getting some horses.
The times they are a changin'.

By Janie T. (Bobbysgirl) on Tuesday, March 18, 2008 - 07:57 am:

A bale of hay is going for $4.50 in Iowa due to the cost of fuel to run the haying equipment. It's costing almost as much to fuel a horse as a car.

By Iron Range Dave (Blackhawk) on Tuesday, March 18, 2008 - 12:07 pm:

Gas typically costs more the further away from the source you are. Transportation cost is the biggest contributor. I don't think the octanes are different in different areas. The gas all has to meet a minimum standard to be called 87 octane. You asked why the price doesn't go down when you go east and south, east and south where? Do you mean east and south of Michigan or east and south of the UP? States like Illinois and Wisconsin have higher gas taxes then other states therefore the same gas costs more even though it left the refinery as the same gas. The other beef I hear is that people think diesel should cost less because it is not refined as much. At one time that was true but not so anymore. The new ultra low sulphur diesel requires additional hydrotreating to remove sulphur to very small levels. This takes additional catalyst and hydrogen so it costs more to refine now. Gas prices are a very complicated thing. Some people think its a simple issue but in reality there are many things that go into that gallon of gasoline.

By Marianne Y (Marianne) on Tuesday, March 18, 2008 - 12:39 pm:

Hi Iron Range Dave--I was hoping you would answer. I can't exactly speak to the octane of regular gas, because my older Suburban gets much better mileage on Premium than on regular. It is cheaper to run it on Premium. It has been our experience that from some miles west of the Mackinac Bridge, east, to I-75, and all the way south through the lower Peninsula, our octane has been 93 (as posted on the gas pumps). But, from some miles west of the Bridge, all the way through the western UP, the Premium octane has only been 91 (as posted on the gas pumps), and that has been the case for some years, to the best of my knowledge. That led me to believe that it is also subject to one of the different formulations, since the octane levels are different, it is likely a different additive.

Again, when I have referred to east and south of the UP, I am referring to strictly within the state of Michigan, not another state, so gas taxes, etc, should be the same.

We don't use diesel, so the only reason that I care about diesel is that the trucks that carry everything that consumers buy and use, whether food, clothes, or whatever, run on diesel.

Thank you for coming into this discussion. Your knowledge should eventually help me with the answers that I was looking for. :-)

By Peter Osmar (Pcosmar) on Tuesday, March 18, 2008 - 01:55 pm:

Marianne Y (Marianne)
One other variable would be the stations themselves.
I don't know where you get your gas but most of these stations are privately owned. If they can make money on their store they can take less of a profit margin on gas. Some make as little as 1 cent a gal.
It would depend on their overhead.
I get gas in the Soo mostly because gas locally is a dime a gal more.

By Iron Range Dave (Blackhawk) on Tuesday, March 18, 2008 - 02:46 pm:

Here is a discussion about octane, hopefully it will answer some of your questions:

In the state of Michigan, of which I drive a lot to and from my in-laws in the UP, I would say the price is greatly influenced by distances from gas source. No refineries close by to minimize transportation costs.

By Marianne Y (Marianne) on Tuesday, March 18, 2008 - 03:34 pm:

Iron Range Dave, thanks for the octane facts. I am a chemist, and my dad was a chem engineer, so I knew a lot of that. In fact, my dad worked for one of the major oil companies for over 40 years, so I have been to a some of the actual oil production fields, et al.

I know that your article says that thinking you are getting better gas mileage with higher octane is a myth, and it may be, in some or many cases. But, I have the data to back it up, that vehicle does get significantly better mileage with the higher octane. For one thing, our '94 Suburban was not built to run on 87 octane. If I remember right, it has to have a minimum of 89 octane. And, we have had major tuneups, but the engine still pings, unless you feed it the high octane stuff. When you start seeing the differences in gas mileage that we have seen, you would not go back to regular.

I know that the gas additives affect octane, and that is actually the way they achieve higher octane. Thus, there must be a different blend in the eastern part of the UP as well as the whole lower peninsula. So, it surprised me, when my son found identical prices, all the way, from mid-Michigan, up to Houghton (with the exception of the Pines at Baraga). The price is usually higher when you get to the lower octane stuff, at least based on past experience, going west, presumably because of the added cost of the additive to make the summer fuel?

Actually, they usually sock it to those of us from about mid-Michigan, north, from about Easter on, because they know that people are going to be out, driving their cars more, going to enjoy the outdoors, etc. And, I know that the gas stations deliberately will jack up their gas prices, on like Tues before a big holiday weekend, so they can get you, before you fill your tank for your trip. I have been told as much, off the record, by station attendants, over the years. I don't know if the oil companies raise their prices then, or just the gas stations do, though. The thing that was really surprising this time is that these gas price hikes hit Friday morning, two-plus weeks before Easter, which is odd timing. Actually, make that Phase 1 of the gas price increases hit then. Phase 2 hit the Tuesday morning, before Palm Sunday, four days after the first price increase.

Then, we run into why was gas 20 cents a gallon cheaper in the southern third of the lower peninsula, at least on Palm Sunday, when it has been roughly the same price as ours was, as an average over the years.

I understand that when you have to truck it longer distances, that costs more money. But, were not charging price differentials that would make one believe that was a price-driving factor in this stuff. Hmmm....

By Tom (Tom) on Wednesday, March 19, 2008 - 12:36 pm:

Interesting comments on gasoline. I drive a MB Sport Sedan Kompressor. Owner's manual says high octane. I mentioned this to my mechanic and he said not to worry as the computer on board will adjust to regular gas. ?? So, that is what I use.
Gasoline in Wisconsin is somewhat regulated by a minimum markup law. Somewhere around 6% over costs must be charged. Wholesalers must charge a specific percent over their costs, too. You won't see price competition in Wisconsin.
Also, pipelines bring gasoline to the Green Bay area and it is trucked to stations from there. I see that some of the truckers deliver to the Copper Country. I don't know where the tank farm in the Marquette area gets their gasoline. It used to be Spur(Murphy Oil) that stored product.

By Iron Range Dave (Blackhawk) on Tuesday, April 1, 2008 - 03:41 pm:

My company president recently spoke to Congress as part of hearings called. I have a long letter that was given to the congressional committee if any of you would like to see it. It gives a lot of information about oil and gas prices and the resulting run up in price as well as puts into perspective the amount of profit the oil companies are making in relation to other industries. It is a pdf file which includes a lot of information.

By FRNash/PHX, AZ (Frnash) on Tuesday, April 1, 2008 - 06:24 pm:

Iron Range Dave (Blackhawk):
"... if any of you would like to see it."

In short, Yes!

FYI: You may attach a PDF file here by including the following in the Add a Message box:



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As with posting pictures (images), after you click the [Post Message] button, the "prompt" you get "for an attachment to upload" will include a [Browse] button, which, when clicked, will allow you to rummage around on your PC to find the PDF file to be uploaded. Having found it, then just click on the [Upload] button, and there it is!

(This method has been tested and verified. It works as described above!)
Brooke (Lovethekeweenaw) on Wednesday, April 2, 2008 - 10:27 am:

They put the gas companies on the spot again yesterday, our Government actually mentioned taking away subsidies from the oil companies to convince them to get it under control. Now wouldn't that just turn around on us the consumers so we are having to pay more to make up that money the oil companies are no longer getting? Supposedly that money would be used to research alternative fuels, like any of us believe that would really happen.

By Iron Range Dave (Blackhawk) on Wednesday, April 2, 2008 - 02:45 pm:

Spoke to soon I guess. Even though it is on the public record our communications people would rather I only use references instead of posting the whole thing, sorry. Brooke be careful, some of us do work for those nasty big oil companies and my company does spend a fair amount of money on new technology and fuels. We are not all bad. One of the figures in the letter actually shows the average profit margin the oil companies make. It is not as great as you would think about 8 cents on every dollar. We actually are in the middle of the pack in terms of profit. Anyone want to guess who leads?

By Tom (Tom) on Wednesday, April 2, 2008 - 05:31 pm:

8 cents on the dollar-----8% profit is darn good. Remember A&P? They made 1 cent on the dollar.
Who is the leader in profits??? Microsoft?

By Marianne Y (Marianne) on Wednesday, April 2, 2008 - 05:39 pm:

I wouldn't be surprised if the leader were Microsoft, especially now that they are powering computers that are driving down the highways in automobiles, or they will be soon, etc. Personally, I find that to be a very scary thought, especially if they catch a virus, while the vehicles are being driven down the highway, which is not that far from the realm of possibility!

By David Hiltunen (Davidcorrytontn) on Wednesday, April 2, 2008 - 08:38 pm:

The people in charge of your 401-K invest in oil.

By Iron Range Dave (Blackhawk) on Thursday, April 3, 2008 - 09:08 am:

I can't give you the actual companies but the sector of the economy that leads all others is: The tobacco and beverage industries at almost 22 ents on the dollar. Close behind is the pharmaceutical and medicines at just over 18 cents on the dollar. Computer and electrical is next at 14.5 cents on the dollar. The oil companies make large amounts of profit true, but the oil companies are very large companies so a lot of money changes hands. We are convienent whipping boys at the moment when in reality we are not at the top of the heap.

By Tom (Tom) on Thursday, April 3, 2008 - 01:37 pm:

Ah, I should have thought that tobacco would be tops. And the pharmaceuticals, of course. They claim they need the profits for R&D. Somewhat true.
By the way, why are the same drugs we buy in the USA cheaper in Canada and Mexico, as two examples? Developed here? Produced in those countries, too?
But no R&D to recoup?
I agree with David that our IRAs and other pension funds are invested in those same industries. Kill their profits and hurt the retirees. Had a friend who invested in tobacco but when it became a whipping boy he sold. What a shame. Lost some good earnings.
ON TV yesterday I saw that some in Congress want to force gas prices down. That would result in us consumers driving like there is no end to oil.

By Marianne Y (Marianne) on Thursday, April 3, 2008 - 02:15 pm:

Tom, on the drugs, the FDA, et al, claim that there is no way you can be sure you are getting the same drugs in Canada (or Mexico) as you would get here in the US, because the FDA has no control over the foreign countries. As such, there could be imitation drugs sold as the real item there. You might recall they found a little bit of that in Nevada, I think it was, a couple of years ago, where the fake drugs and diluted strength drugs were immediately removed from the shelves, but that would likely not happen abroad. Some of this information, on the lack of product protections, etc, I got from my niece, who is a PhD pharmacist, who worked at MD Anderson Hospital (renowned for cancer treatment) in Houston, until a couple of years ago. She has now moved back to her native, California. I got this info from her while she was still at MD Anderson. In addition, my brother, a retired oral surgeon, gave me similar information.

I guess the bottom line is that you have a lot better chance of your getting what you pay for in the US than you would have abroad. That would be pretty bad if you thought you were paying for a potentially life-saving drug, and you got something that was either not full strength or another drug entirely, or even a sugar pill, in false packaging.

In addition, unfortunately, Americans end up paying for most of the R&D costs of drugs sold world-wide. That part I don't think is right. For those countries, like France and Canada, where the government sets the price, should have to pay for their fair share of the R&D costs, which they currently are not, or at least they were not as of a couple of years ago.

By Tom (Tom) on Thursday, April 3, 2008 - 03:41 pm:

Are you saying that in foreign countries the locals get prescrip drugs that are not consistently the same dosages?

By Marianne Y (Marianne) on Friday, April 4, 2008 - 10:56 am:

From what I've heard, without the FDA watchdog, to double-check things...you get the message. Maybe your are getting what you think you are, and maybe not. Not because of the pharmaceutical companies, but because of the middle people.

By FRNash/PHX, AZ (Frnash) on Thursday, May 15, 2008 - 06:10 pm:

Gas prices, alternative fuels?

Viable hydrogen fuel for the "car of tomorrow"?

Speaking to a Joint Session of Congress on May 25, 1961, President John F. Kennedy first declared the goal for landing a man on the Moon within the decade, saying:


"First, I believe that this nation should commit itself to achieving the goal, before this decade is out, of landing a man on the Moon and returning him back safely to the earth. No single space project in this period will be more impressive to mankind, or more important for the long-range exploration of space; and none will be so difficult or expensive to accomplish."

Kennedy later made a speech at Rice University on September 12, 1962, in which he said:


"No nation which expects to be the leader of other nations can expect to stay behind in this race for space."


"We choose to go to the Moon in this decade and do the other things, not because they are easy, but because they are hard."

Just a few days less than eight years and two months later, on July 20, 1969 (almost six years after JFK's death) Project Apollo's goal was realized when men landed on the Moon.

So how long would you guess it would take us to accomplish the goal of producing the hydrogen car, along with ensuring the availability of convenient fueling stations, if we just set our minds to it in a similar fashion? Less than a decade?

Would that be a more difficult challenge than it was to do a moon landing with 1960's technology?

Let's just decide to stop being victims of OPEC, and, to steal a line … lets "Just do it!" (™ Nike, Inc.)
Peter Osmar (Pcosmar) on Thursday, May 15, 2008 - 06:40 pm:

I have advocated Hydrogen for over 30 years. In my youth folks thought I was just a wacky idiot for suggesting it. then I was ignored and droped mentioning it.
In recent years there has been a renewed interest and research. I am glad to see it.
It could be done. It will work.
There is still the supply and demand "catch 22".
No one will mass produce millions of vehicles that have no fuel supply.
And no one will refine and distribute a fuel source that no one can use.
Oil refining and the internal combustion engine both evolved together, and over time. It would take some time to change over, and many folks resist change.

Then there is the other question of how much alternate technology has been repressed over the years. There is some "evidence" of patents being buried or denied. But that is another subject.

By David Soumis (Davesou) on Friday, July 4, 2008 - 09:19 pm:

are the gas prices rising in the rest of the world like they are here in the US? I don't hear any clamoring from other countries. If its a true shortage /demand worldwide, everyone's prices should be going up, not just ours.

If not, why not?
and it just shows we're getting screwed.

By Roger Somero (Rsomero) on Friday, July 4, 2008 - 11:33 pm:

There are large protests world wide-truckers strikes in the UK and India to name two places. When I was in Eurpoe two years ago gas was six dollars a gallon. I hear it is now nine dollars a gallon! They choose to tax themselves this way-taxes are several dollars a gallon-go figure.

By Roger Somero (Rsomero) on Friday, July 4, 2008 - 11:37 pm:


By Heikki (Heikki) on Saturday, July 5, 2008 - 06:36 am:

Western European countries have a long history of oppressive taxation. They are more 'conditioned' than we in the U.S., hence the delay in protest over high fuel prices. My relatives in the U.K. write they are using public transportion almost exclusively due to ridiculously high petrol prices ($9-&10/U.S. gal.). Because it's a densely populated country, and small, public transportation is highly developed. Not so in the U.S.. In reality, comparing the economic impact of fuel prices on individuals living the U.S. and foreign countries having high fuel prices is very close to comparing apples and oranges. Our country runs on oil, whether one feels that's good or bad, and the size of the U.S. having vast areas where public transportation is yet uneconomically feasible keeps the price at the pump a major issue. Short term solution (20-30 yrs) is to increase domestic oil output while developing alternative energy sources that show economic feasibility. No quick changeover is possible because of the humongous size of our main sources of energy and infrastructure. But, none of this can or will happen without a comprehensive long-term national energy policy. That's what we as citizens should be demanding of our elected officials. In the foreseeable future, internal combustion engine-driven cars fueled by petroleum will still be with us, even if in hybrid form.

By David Soumis (Davesou) on Saturday, July 5, 2008 - 08:59 am:

its really a shame we didn't do something about this over the last 36 years when the Saudis threw the shutoff switch on us before. Should have been a warning. But no, we just keep clamoring along using too much oil. You would think all those smart people running the country could have predicted that other countries would start using more oil too.
Then there's the fact its a limited resource.

Well, no problem...we'll just go over there and take control of all that oil. That's the ticket, yes. And if we decimate a lot of countries like southeast Asia, and now Iraq, that really puts a clamp on their oil useage. keep em poor...more for us.

The bottom line is, nnow we need 30 years to develop something, when all along, we had plenty of time to avoid this situation, but did basically absolutely nothing. Cars get worse mileage than 10 years ago. Check the ads. Even the hybrids get crappy mileage really. 34 mph for a hybrid ? Look at the civic..a couple of years ago it got 40. now its down in the low 30s, although the new EPA mileage ratings account for some of that difference.

There is no excuse for what is happening. Now we're going to suffer because of lack of foresight, or just plain greed on the part of car manufacturers, oil companies, etc. You have to pay the piper sooner or later for the high standard of living, and its catching up really fast.

Where's the national effort? We surely got a lot done with the Manhattan Project? Or the space race to beat the Russkies. Where's the alternate fuel race? Where's the race to find different solutions for materials? Probably more than half the oil is used as basis for materials, such as plastics. Well , here is a partial list ..
Some Products From Oil

This is a list of some of the products made from oil. Nearly everything in our lives is made from oil, made by machinery and systems dependent on oil, and transported by oil as either gas or diesel fuel.

Ammonia, Anesthetics, Antihistamines, Artificial limbs, Artificial Turf, Antiseptics, Aspirin, Auto Parts, Awnings, Balloons, Ballpoint pens, Bandages, Beach Umbrellas, Boats, Cameras, Candles, Car Battery Cases, Carpets, Caulking, Combs, Cortisones, Cosmetics, Crayons, Credit Cards, Curtains, Deodorants, Detergents, Dice, Disposable Diapers, Dolls, Dyes, Eye Glasses, Electrical Wiring Insulation, Faucet Washers, Fishing Rods, Fishing Line, Fishing Lures, Food Preservatives, Food Packaging, Garden Hose, Glue, Hair Coloring, Hair Curlers, Hand Lotion, Hearing Aids, Heart Valves, Ink, Insect Repellant, Insecticides, Linoleum, Lip Stick, Milk Jugs, Nail Polish, Oil Filters, Panty Hose, Perfume, Petroleum Jelly, Rubber Cement, Rubbing Alcohol, Shampoo, Shaving Cream, Shoes, Toothpaste, Trash Bags, Upholstery, Vitamin Capsules, Water Pipes, Yarn

we need more than alternative fuels and energy.

By David Hiltunen (Davidcorrytontn) on Saturday, July 5, 2008 - 11:06 am:

Congress has made it illegal to develop vast domestic oil resources in large parts of the United States.

The most startling Congressional prohibition on domestic oil production concerns the recently enacted ban on the development of oil shale resources in parts of Colorado, Utah, and Wyoming in the Green River Formation. According to a Rand Study estimate, this reserve contains over one trillion barrels of oil, with 800 billion barrels fully recoverable, or three times the current oil reserves as Saudi Arabia. The same RAND study indicated that technology exists today that would allow oil shale extraction and that the process would be cost effective once the price of a barrel of oil was $95 (p. x). The price of a barrel of oil today is around $130. Shell Oil has been investing in technology that would make extraction much cheaper than standard pit mining. In short, if the Congress removed its prohibition, America could develop a substantial amount of its oil needs from domestic oil shale resources rather than relying on foreign governments.The Energy Policy Act of 2005 specifically declared that it was the policy of the United States to recognize oil shale as a strategically important domestic resource. Section 369 states.
Buried in a Department of Interior appropriations bill passed in December 2007 was an amendment that prevented establishing regulations for leasing land to drill for oil shale. The House passed that amendment, proposed by Rep. Mark Udall of Colorado, on June 27, 2007, by a vote of 219-215. On May 15, 2008 in a 15-14 vote, the Senate Appropriations Committee rejected an amendment by Sen. Wayne Allard (R-CO) to allow oil shale drilling and overturn the Udall moratorium.


(Senate panel retains oil-shale moratorium)

By Heikki (Heikki) on Saturday, July 5, 2008 - 11:58 am:

Let's not forget the stonewalling, whining, lobbying, and propagandizing done by radical enviromentalists over the years. That has had a more pronounced effect than many folks believe on legislation concerning dependable energy sources. No new nuclear plants for over 30 yrs. No new oil refineries for over 25 yrs.....in fact, a decline in number of refineries occurred. Bans placed on drilling in the coastal plains of ANWR. Bans placed on off-shore drilling, etc., etc. All the while increasing our dependency on foreign oil as our population increased and consumption rose. Conservation measures have done much over these same years in better insulated homes, more efficient home appliances, recycling, etc., but conservation alone can only do so much. The Manhatten Project and space programs are awesome technological achievements but involved a miniscule part of our land area and relatively small number of people who actually made it happen. Using those examples are fine for tech improvements, but fall short as an example how to revolutionize a huge, widespread industry such as energy supply.
There is much disagreement on the theory of peak oil. Perhaps it is relevant as it pertains to easily obtained reserves, but with modern (more expensive) methods of exploration and removal, there are many that claim there is an ample supply still to be obtained for many decades. We have been through oil crises before....several times....and each time the price of crude reached what the traffic would bear, the concern for world oil reserve depletion calmed down.
There are thousands of products we use daily that are derived in some form or percentage from petroleum, but all do not necessarily have to be made from that base stock. But the products we depend on for our basic needs have to continue to be economically viable in the foreseeable future, otherwise, we can all say goodbye to our standard of living. Just think how this country would be impacted with $10/gal. at the pump! I agree we have been asleep at the switch for the most part since 1974. That should have been our wake-up call. But, who misses the water until the well runs dry? Perhaps this current price crisis is a blessing in disguise (again). When we recover from this current crisis you can bet your sweet bippy we'll return to our carefree days unless we have a national energy policy in place. There are ample energy sources available. We just have to develop and utilize them wisely.

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