Jul 17-03

Past-E-Mail: Cam Notes - 2003: July: Jul 17-03
Tilden Mine    ...scroll down to share comments
Photo by Joe Dase

Charlie at Pasty Central on Thursday, July 17, 2003 - 09:19 am:

I don't think we have ever featured Tilden on the Pasty Cam before - appropriate for this week's spotlight, as it's is located in the Marquette Iron Range. Thanks to Joe Dase for several mining shots in the guest gallery.

Welcome to all of the Calumet and Sacred Heart High School Almuni in town for the All School Reunion. Hopefully some of our guest Pasty Camists will get some good shots during the festivities, now through Saturday.

By Missin the UP from NJ on Thursday, July 17, 2003 - 11:00 am:

Wow! There are people who are against open pit mining, but we can't ever forget how these mines have supported the families of so many Yoopers. That's a proud thing.
(Hey! Did miners ever uncover any fossils in any of these pits?)

By rick karl, wisconsin on Thursday, July 17, 2003 - 11:19 am:

Unfortunately, Geology and cost made it vastly cheaper to get at Iron Ore this way.

Yes, these mines were essential to the UP's economic success.

One has to constantly weigh economic benefits vs. damage to the environment. If either side of this argument is predominant, you end up with a situation where someone loses. Balance is the keyword.

What a beautiful area the UP is.

By Joe Dase MTU Mining Engineering Student on Thursday, July 17, 2003 - 11:30 am:

As far as the fossils are concerned, some of the oldest fossils known to man, some 1 billion years old were found in the Empire Pit, which is right next to the Tilden Pit, from time to time you can find a sample of these for sale, I came across one in Cincinnati at the national SME convention. As far as the open pit mining goes Mining as opposed to Geology has made it more economical to go open pit. With an open pit you can have an extremely high production rate, and most of the development of cost saving technology has been directed towards open pit mining. Also you donít have pesky problems like subsidence, as was the problem with high production block caving underground mines such as the Mather Mine. Plus its an added benefit to the environment as the Mine site can be readily converted into wetlands, after mining is complete, as CCI demonstrated with the Republic Mine. I hope you guys enjoy the mining shots, more to come this summer.

By Phil, Manton, MI on Thursday, July 17, 2003 - 12:35 pm:

Nice Picture. I worked there around 1972 with Lindberg Construction Co. excavating for the Tilden Phase 2 Pellet Plant. It definately looks a lot bigger now after years of mining.

Anyone heard of the underground farming that started in the White Pine Copper Mine? I heard that some things can grow twice as fast because of the controlled environment, and away from the damaging elements.

By David Cloutier - Colorado on Thursday, July 17, 2003 - 12:52 pm:

Unfortunately, it seems that many people forget that ALL of the basic materials we need to live come from the earth.... Iron for steel, aluminum for cans, copper for wire, coal for power and so on... These mineral resources are only available to us at certain locations... it is not like we can mine them anywhere... and even the availablity of renewable resources such as trees, food crops and water power are controlled by environmental factors such as climate, soil and topography... The problem is we can't simply "Ban Mining" or "Ban Logging" as some people would suggest... We must have these resources to support the population of the world. However, we do need to acknowledge that all of our actions impact our environment and we need to understand how to manage those impacts so that we do not cause irreparable damage...

By Judy Brown-Kurnik Chesaning, MI on Thursday, July 17, 2003 - 02:44 pm:

Well said, Mr. Cloutier!

By deb - Michigan's UP on Thursday, July 17, 2003 - 02:49 pm:

I have recently talked with a man who is working at the underground farming being done at the White Pine Copper Mine site. He said they are currently planting tobacco plants at the site as well as the mushrooms. Rumors abound as to whether the tobacco is the regular variety or wacky, and I wasn't comfortable asking him.
The plants do grow faster, and of better quality. The products are used in medical reasearch by a Canadian company.

By John / New Hampshire on Thursday, July 17, 2003 - 03:07 pm:

Great picture - I am curious to know what "flavor" of iron oxide ore comes from Tilden Mine. Is it magnetite, hematite, ...?

By danbury, germany on Thursday, July 17, 2003 - 03:54 pm:

Hey, environmentalism again!
Nay, no weird comments from me. Just an indeed, Mr. Cloutier. And while the balance aforementioned by rick karl is important so we can live in the luxury we're used to, I can imagine environmentalists to survive more or less decent without the kind of economy we've got. And now vice versa - can anybody imagine economists (and every other beeing) surviving without environment? Even people who acknowledge the importance of the environment sometimes seem to forget about that funny little, and perhaps even stupid sounding, snag. Not thinking of someone in special, no offence meant - just something to think of.
My biggest fear along these lines is that the US (and others with them) in their wish to avoid a maior change of the american way of living might be frantic enough to destroy whole landscapes in search for the coal, oilsand etc. uncerneath once the cheap oil is gone.
Not necessarily, though.
Until then, we can enjoy the land as long as it's still there - and there better be a whole lot of it left when I'm coming for a real life visŪt.

By Missin the UP from NJ on Thursday, July 17, 2003 - 04:13 pm:

To Joe Dase MTU-
Thanks so much for the fascinating info on the fossils. I have long thought that the UP is "hiding" huge ancient secrets for us to uncover.

If you know of a web site I could check out that has info on UP fossils, that would be cool. Not necessarily for sale. I'm just interested in learning new things.
Thank you again.

By Jeff, MI on Thursday, July 17, 2003 - 04:32 pm:

Does anybody know how tall the mine rock pile has risen to next to the tilden mine? You can see it on US-41 from Ishepeming on the way to Marquette and it is huge! I'm wondering if it taller then Mt. Arvon.

By Joe Dase MTU Miner on Thursday, July 17, 2003 - 06:37 pm:

Missing the UP-

http://www.mindat.org/index.php Is a good site for mineralogy I'm donít recall coming across any sites about UP fossils, there maybe one out there I donít know of.

John / New Hampshire-

The flavor of that pit is hematite, however Tilden does have a magnetite pit. About Midway through December the Tilden Mill shuts down to switch over to mining Magnetite, this gives them time to move equipment such as drills and shovels, and switch the mill its self over to process magnetite, since its magnetic they use magnetic separators in circuit where in hematite you donít. After 3 months or so Tilden then goes back to mining hematite, or until they have filled their customers demands for the magnetite pellets.

As far as destroying "whole landscapes" goes, the mining industry is pushing hard for accepted definitions of sustainable development, and are working with the major environmentalist groups to do so. The problem is that the industry is trying to fix a bad reputation left by years of mismanagement. What doesnít help is you have the extremist environmentalists who will not listen to reason no matter how much evidence you present to them, they think that mining is bad and thatís that. An excellent example of this is the Crandon Mine, its a case where the mining company was operating well within the law, yet a group of uneducated/misinformed environmentalists started tying the project up in court.

Finally the White Pine mine project seems to be going well from what I have heard, except for some ground stability problems near the main entry way, its an excellent idea, there arenít that many places where you can control every aspect of the climate on that scale.

By Paul in Illinois on Thursday, July 17, 2003 - 06:43 pm:

Once upon a time there was a world power. They led the world through an industrial revolution, they made the best steel and the best machine tools - all the other countries looked up to them. As time went on, they became richer and used to the finer things in life, they turned to service industries like banking, insurance, and trading. They closed their shops and mills because they could get stuff cheaper from other countries. Since there weren't as many shops and mills, and mining was dirty and expensive, they closed most of their mines. With the few shops, mills, and mines left, there was no point in making machine tools anymore either. They forgot how to mine stuff and make things. They were happy and comfortable.
But then there were evil-doers in the east. The good people tried to make the evil-doers happy and gave them the very countries where the good people's steel and tools were made. The evil-doers didn't stay happy for long - they were greedy evil-doers. They came after the happy, comfortable people. The good people soon found that paper wasn't of much use against steel and they didn't have enough people left who knew how to make things. They were in deep ____!
The good people had a friend in the west, who sent steel and tools. The friend came and helped fight the evil-doers. Together they won.
Paraphrased from BLOOD, SWEAT, & FOLLY by Len Deighton, British. It is about Great Britain in the '30's. It could be about the USA right now, except I don't know of any friend to the west who could actually bail us out.
We need Tilden. We need to be responsible -"balanced" - about it, but we need to keep our mines, mills, and factories open. We have lost an alarming amount of our ability to be self-suficiant.

By Steve the flying troll on Thursday, July 17, 2003 - 09:34 pm:

Amen Paul................ A nation of "service" folks............no wonder "they" hate us........

I do service.........every day........I fix things........every day......it puts gas in my airplane...........everyday..........Get out of your cubicle and MAKE SOMETHING.

By Mary Lou on Friday, July 18, 2003 - 08:07 am:

Missing the UP from NJ....when swimming at our camp at Bootjack, my small grandson found a "pretty rock"....I kept this gift as a door=stop until my son suggested I take it to the Seaman Museum. Stan Dyl was pleased to see it and described it as: a band of agate in a besalt matrix and that it was from the eruption of the vulcanos....2 BILLION 500 MILLION yrs ago.....it had been rolling around Portage Lake since the eruption. The "Pretty Rock" is now part of the Copper Country Collection at the Museum....given the respect it deserves....You are right about a "ancient secrets"....and sometime they are right in front of our eyes and we only have to look...

By danbury; germany on Friday, July 18, 2003 - 11:44 am:

Hi, Paul.
Nice story.
How about teaching them the taste of the finer things (and allowing them to grow the ability to afford them) before they get evil? ;-)

By Phil, Manton,MI on Friday, July 18, 2003 - 12:59 pm:

It seems that the same thing is happening to the steel industry as happened to the copper mining industry. That is why I am living below the bridge now. The almighty dollar changes everything, especially if its not offset with the help of advanced technology.

By Missin the UP from NJ on Friday, July 18, 2003 - 02:34 pm:

To Mary Lou-
Thank you for the great story about your fossil.
I get a kick out of hearing about those kinds of finds cause it lets me think I too, will find a fossil someday.

Also, Thank you Joe Dase for the link. I appreciate the time you took to answer my question.

By Paul in Illinois on Friday, July 18, 2003 - 08:00 pm:

Danbury; Germany,
That was a simple story about a very complex event. But, simply put, the "evil-doers" of the 1930's were members of the "haves" who wanted to "have" more resources and, more importantly, power.
Today, as I take your comment to mean, we have the the "haves" and the "have nots". The "haves" want to keep what they have and it is assumed that the "have nots" want what the "haves" have, but this is also complicated by the "haves" exploitation of the "have nots" natural resouces. This seems to sum up most of the world's problems - until you throw in the religious issues where some of the "have nots" really believe that what the "haves" have is evil and should be stamped off the face of the earth. Human nature being what it is, creates an equal and opposite reaction in the "have" camp. And here we are. We have the total illogic of famine ridden countries turning away US grain and food because it might contain geneticly modified organisms which they think might make the starving people sick. The world seems to plagued by a whole lot of politicians and very few statesmen. If we can find an answer, and we can help the under developed nations, all might work out. In the mean time, we need to keep our ability to sustain ourselves, least, like Great Britain in the 1930's, we find ourselves cut off from the sources of the things we need to survive.

By C. Walega on Friday, July 18, 2003 - 08:51 pm:

Hey, what's all this talk about "billions" of years when the Bible only mentions about 6000 since the time when God created the heavens and the earth?

By mike usa on Friday, July 18, 2003 - 11:32 pm:

thank you PAUL OF ILL. you pretty well said it all. maybe as a whole we (in the usa ) have made a lot of mistakes. but tell me a nation that has made more contributions and helped more nations. than us!!!!!!!! (to the PC) who has given more money and people to help other causes than the USA? to those that complain. thank our nation that you have the RIGHT and LIVE in this nation to complain. thank the servicmen & women.

By Mary Lou on Saturday, July 19, 2003 - 05:12 am:

C Walega....There were pre-historic, ancient-miners mining copper in the Copper Country, as well as other areas 5000 yrs ago.....I know nothing of Metallurgy or Geology but I would guess it took many thousands of years for the metals to form in the earth. Apparently, the volcanic eruptions in the Keweenaw brought the copper to the "surface"......are there any Metallurgists or Geologists out there who know approximately when the volcanos in the Keweenaw erupted?......I find this ancient history interesting....

By Saturday Soapbox on Saturday, July 19, 2003 - 06:03 am:

Try legislating morality today and listen to the outcry of opposition.

Listen to the astounding silence as public opinion, lord of the universe, is prodded not with fears of eternal damnation, but of eternal environmental damage.

Government has no more right to use science to infringe upon the liberty of man than it has the right to use religion to accomplish the same ends.

Amazing it is that a scientist who argues "the scientific method" would also argue for governmental control of a process better left to the free market.

Insured certification is one way of caring for the enviroment and utilizing the resources given us. There is a market for environmental management--we have created one. Get government out of that business before we lose even more of our rights.

Government cannot protect private property rights and express an interest in its use.

By Joe Dase MTU Miner on Saturday, July 19, 2003 - 09:58 am:

I couldnít have said anything better myself.

Mary Lou-
I do not know when the volcanic event occurred (Probably in the one+ billion year range.), but I do know that basically it was a result of a massive geotectonic collision, which also created lake superior. When the two plates collided it forced all of the copper enriched liquids (Mainly extremely high temp. water) through the fissures and cavities that were created from the plate collision. The liquids eventually evaporated leaving behind the materials they were carrying in the Keweenawís case, copper. Interestingly there is a theory now that the Marquette Iron Range was formed from the same event, as most of the iron deposits have evidence of hydrothermal vents near the iron formations.

C. Walega-
Donít take me as trying to shoot down your religious beliefs because I feel its great to have religion in ones life if you so choose to, however one must be willing to accept the possibility that the bibles time frame is wrong. Even if it is wrong it wouldnít affect the teachings its meant to convey, I am one of those people who feel that the bible was not meant to be taken literally all the time, just give people guidance on how to be good people. You may not agree with my opinions but thatís ok because thatís what helps make our country great, the free exchange of opinions.

By Mary Lou on Saturday, July 19, 2003 - 11:01 am:

Joe Dase MTU Miner..Thank you for the information.....I have the book "Prehistoric Copper Mining in the Lake Superior Region" (Drier & DuTemple). Many folks believe our history of mining started in 1840s and not 5000yrs ago. I think I read that the C&H was founded when a pig fell into one of these ancient copper storage pits and it was filled with pure copper.....apparently, these ancient miners left the area..never to return...we do not have a clue who they were..where they came from..or where they went...

By Mary Louise Pearce Strohl on Monday, July 21, 2003 - 12:18 am:

This picture and all the interesting comments reminded me that I have a book on my bookshelf named Wonderful Power, the Story of Ancient Copper Working in the Lake Superior Basin by Susan R. Martin, It was published in 1999 by Wayne State University Press. Susan Martin is an assistant professor of archaeology and anthropology at Michigan Tech. It looks quite academic, so I must admit I haven't read it. It says it is written for both the layperson and the interested professional. I think I'll take it along on my 6 week vacation in the Keweenaw--starting next week. Mary Louise Strohl, (previously Pearce--Lake Linden)Now living in Davis, California

By Mary Lou on Monday, July 21, 2003 - 08:16 am:

Greetings Mary Louise...nice to hear from you and to learn of the new book. Octave Dutemple's book is out of print. Peter Kettenbeil, (Bruce's son) and his wife, Nicole, who live in Montreal,Canada are researching with the possibility of writing a television series based on the ancient copper trade. He is using the Dutemple book. He is helping Fred Rydholm with his new book with a chapter regarding this subject, as well. Fred"s current book is "Superior Heartland".

Except for Fred,who lives in Marquette we all have Lake Linden ties....making "Glory for Lake Linden"!! Hope to see you next year at the all school reunion.

By Mary Louise Pearce Strohl--Davis, CA on Monday, July 21, 2003 - 09:56 am:

Mary Lou: How happy I was to get up this morning and find your message. The internet is so great! I'll be sure to tell my sister Carol in Montreal to check out this particular posting on Pasty.Cam. What do you know about next year's all school reunion? Maybe I should plan to be there. Laurian and Ingeborg are the only two classmates I still correspond with. Where do you live now Mary Lou?

By Mary Lou on Monday, July 21, 2003 - 12:52 pm:

Mary Louise....The sign in front of the school states that the all school reunion is set for July 3?......the ? implys that date is not firm....but I did hear that Charlotte is working on your regular reunion for next summer.....I just may crash that one because I would have been there if Gary was still here.....I loved it when the two classes got together......Robt. Miller passed away Saturday night...he and Mary were our good friends..as well as Bob and Barb Lewis...so I always enjoyed your class as much as my own.....

By Chris Walega, UP & MN on Monday, July 21, 2003 - 02:26 pm:

So, Joe, are you saying that sometimes the Bible is false? Sometimes mankind thinks it knows too much. Pretty soon people will be telling God what's up. Besides there is overwhelming SCIENTIFIC evidence that the world CANNOT be any older than 6000 or so years. Many scientists are finding through there own research that previously held notions about "old-earth" and evolution simply cannot be intelligently supported with scientific evidence.
check out www.answersingenesis.com

By Mary Lou on Tuesday, July 22, 2003 - 07:01 am:

C Walega...As a Catholic and Christian who has faith in God's wisdom to rule my life, I prefer to think that Joe is right. I believe that God gave him and others the intellect and desire to pursue His gift for us.........this wonderful world and it's many mysteries. I believe we must use the gifts God gave us....and to use the knowledge the Bible teaches..in a positive way....and to move ahead.....there is no conflict here. God the Creator... was the ultimate scientist!!

By Paul in Illinois on Tuesday, July 22, 2003 - 06:24 pm:

Amen, Mary Lou! I had 12 years in a religious school and I also believe that we were given the ability to learn and seek the truth. If one assumes God is the creator and the ultimate good, then one is obligated to use the tools given. There a great many religious (Christian)people throughout the world who believe that there is overwhelming evidence that earth is billions of calender years old. They do not find this to be in conflict with the Bible since we don't presume to know what a year means to God. Maybe it is equal to a billion calender years. In infinity, how is time measured by infinite beings?
Fortunately, we live in the USA where the founding fathers saw fit to ensure our freedom of speech and freedom to practice the religion of our choice. That allows us to participate on this web site without fear of retribution. In other places and times C. Walega's comments could land him/her in a very dangerous position. Same for us, there were times and places where we ould be persecuted for any "heresy" concerning the Bible.
Wow, to think this all started with a picture of an open pit mine!

By C. Walega, MPLS on Tuesday, July 22, 2003 - 08:56 pm:

"...and the evening and the morning were the first day...and the evening and the morning were the second day...and the evening and the morning were the third day...and the evening and the morning were the fourth day...and the evening and the morning were the fifth day...and the evening and the morning were the sixth day...and on the seventh day, God ended the work which he had made...and God blessed the seventh day and sanctified it."

There is no room for speculation when it comes to worshipping God "in spirit and in truth." Truth is not relative. Man can not substitute his theories for God's truth. "Religions," all 1,187 of them, are only the result of mankind not being humble enough to except God's Word as it is.

By J. Birk on Wednesday, July 30, 2003 - 07:02 pm:

Mr. Walega,

I went to your website and checked out the "overwhelming SCIENTIFIC evidence that the world CANNOT be any older than 6000 or so years" that you refer to. Sorry, but the evidence wasn't there at all. The same old questions about Genesis were posted, but NONE of them had any believable answers. Who was Cain's wife and where did her village, Nod, come from? Where is the geologic evidence for a recent worldwide flood (there is none - I'm a geologist) How could terrestrial trees, plants and freshwater fish survive a worldwide (salt water) flood? How did those Australian and Western Hemisphere animal species get to the Ark anyway? What about the fact that the Hubble Telescope has discovered one billion galaxies, each containing one billion stars, as far away as one billion light years? When light from any of those distant stars hits your eye, what does that mean? How long ago did was it generated by and leave that star? Bingo.

By G, Illinois on Friday, June 18, 2004 - 02:57 pm:

Quiet yourselves and enjoy the not so tranquil beauty of
man's work. Needless to say it is breathtaking in its own
way. The UP is a paradox. Some of the most impressive of
mans creations alonside of Gods. Quincy hill is a great
example. The lighthouses are another. The great collection
of mining ruins adds interest to the beautiful scenery. The
mines create the wonderful towns full of interesting
history,culture and people.

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