Heated debate

Past-E-Mail: Cam Notes - 2003: Jun: Jun 02-03: Heated debate
Some days on the Pasty Cam the pictures (or certain participants) inspire controversy. For the sake of those who want to simply enjoy a pleasant 'glimpse of life from the U.P.', we have moved the controversial thread of the conversation to its own page.
Please avoid inflamatory remarks or personal attacks. They will be removed.

Hey, it's not even a full moon.
- Toivo
By Bev Margolis on Monday, June 2, 2003 - 08:22 am:

FRIDAY, May 2 (HealthScoutNews) -- The first proof that fish feel pain is outlined in a study by University of Edinburgh and Roslin Institute researchers... The researchers tested the responses of anesthetized rainbow trout to various mechanical, thermal and chemical stimuli. They found 58 receptors in the face and head of the rainbow trout that responded to at least one of the stimuli.

By Mr. Wheatman, South end on Monday, June 2, 2003 - 10:44 am:

Aah Bev, just as you can name a study to promote your ...point of view..., I can name another to refute it. A study conducted at the University of Wyoming published in February 2003 by James D. Rose, professor of zoology and physiology asserts that fish, including your quoted rainbow trout, Oncophynchus mykiss, lack the brain structure to feel pain, and that their reactions are pure instinctive. This is the latest study in the matter by a esteemed professional that has spent 30 years in the matters of neurology. A study, however, is not required by fellow anglers to continue to enjoy nature's bounty, as our creator has intended. Responsible sportsmanship is respectable and required for a flourishing ecosystem indeed.


By Rick Karl, Wisconsin on Monday, June 2, 2003 - 12:10 pm:

As Bev, others, and many esteemed studies show, pain is or isn't shared by anything and anyone.

No matter what you do or say, everything IS or ISN'T bad for you, animals, or the environment.

For God's sake folks, lighten up...the photo was one of solitude and relaxation...no more, no less...

By FJL, MILW. on Monday, June 2, 2003 - 12:16 pm:

Mr. Wheatman said it all..... Thank you...

By 100% yooper on Monday, June 2, 2003 - 12:25 pm:

Weel said Mr. Wheatman!!!

By 100% on Monday, June 2, 2003 - 12:26 pm:

OOps! Well Said Mr. Wheatman!!!

By Rivera on Monday, June 2, 2003 - 01:08 pm:

Indeed, the first proof that fish is delicious was outlined about the time that man (and fish) was CREATED and has been substantiated by untold millions in the afterward.

By Dave - Colorado on Monday, June 2, 2003 - 01:10 pm:

Thank you mr. Wheatmen!! and as Rick Karl said... "lighten up!!" It is a wonderful photo that captures the feeling of being in the woods enjoying Gods beauty... Some people need to "get a life"...

By Dave - Colorado on Monday, June 2, 2003 - 01:18 pm:

oh, and not to pick nits, but if memory serves me correctly, the latin name for the rainbow trout is Salmo gairdnerii...

By Katherine D. in G.R. on Monday, June 2, 2003 - 01:31 pm:

What descent creature born from the pure mother earth would hesitate to give it's life for a poor starving human?

By SkyHopper, AL on Monday, June 2, 2003 - 02:06 pm:

Well, guess I'll jump in...

What a great picture, a little tight to cast a fly rod in there but sure would love to try. Stuck down here in S.E. Alabama, the rivers just don't compare to da U.P.

As far as Bev's post goes, study or no I would guess fish can feel pain. It is obvious the can feel presure (just grab one) why not pain. I am sure they can feel, at least for a second, the blunt end of a club just before you throw'em into the ice box for dinner. After all, God created them, (not pure mother earth, sorry Katherine D.) for food. (Gen. Chapter 9)

And the fear of you and the dread of you shall be upon every beast of the earth, and upon every fowl of the air, upon all that moveth upon the earth, and upon all the fishes of the sea; into your hand are they delivered.
Every moving thing that liveth shall be meat for you; even as the green herb have I given you all things.(Gen 9:2-3)

By Mr. Wheatman, South end on Monday, June 2, 2003 - 02:16 pm:

Ah Kudos Dave for the input and the kind words. You are correct on the original Latin apellation being Salmo gairdnerii, but it has since been reclassified as Oncophynchus mykiss, along with several others in the genus. You will see it referred to as the former as often as the latter, so basically they both accurate. Kudos also to Rick, I concur in his avowel that the photo should be enjoyed, as it has on this end. The young man pictured, however, should not be made out as anything less than reputable for a laudable activity. Enough said, fine picture, and I wish the angler well.

By Dave - Colorado on Monday, June 2, 2003 - 03:42 pm:

Mr. Wheatmen:
Indeed, I stand corrected (or at least updated)with respect to the current taxonomy for the beloved rainbow trout... so when the heck did that happen?? :)

Humbly yours,

By Katherine D. in G.R. on Monday, June 2, 2003 - 06:16 pm:

Sorry Skyhopp, I did mean it tonge-in-cheek. I'm sure you have seen His Marvelous work first hand from aloft.

By R. Holland on Monday, June 2, 2003 - 06:34 pm:

inflamatory remarks removed
For right now I have some good fish which I will not name on the grill and cannot wait till they are done and chow down on something that our maker gave us to eat and enjoy.
If I want to eat weeds and all that other stuff find but that is up to me.
And if I did I would not try to push it the on other people.

By Dave the River Slave MO on Monday, June 2, 2003 - 06:44 pm:

If they can feel pain, Bev, maybe those trouts
should avoid snacking on worms with hooks
coming out of them, don' cha know?
Stimulated a great deal of thought anyway!

By David S. - FL on Monday, June 2, 2003 - 08:46 pm:

Oh boy!!! Here we go with save the whales and save the snails. I once saw a documentary on TV about a religious group in Asia or India who would go through every grain of rice to make sure a bug would not accidentally get murdered by us terrible humans. Let's find a little middle ground and just know how to live. A kid with a fishing pole in a U.P. creek is as right as rain. I know; I was. And I even murdered a little tree to use as a pole. Again, right as rain.....

By Scott, Wisconsin on Monday, June 2, 2003 - 09:51 pm:

I have no doubt that fish feel pain, but
I have to wonder about people that worry
more about fish then their fellow humans
and the pain and suffering of the world.

By Rich, Michigan on Monday, June 2, 2003 - 10:03 pm:

Nothing quite like a good waste of time, oxygen, and valuable research dollars on a topic as useless as whether fish feel pain or not!

Toivo - take the Lower Peninsula route. The L.P. stands out on your trip map almost like a state that you forgot to visit! When you swing by Bay City let us know and we'll be happy to snap a digital pic so we can all see the true identity of the still mysterious TOIVO!

By DM, MD on Monday, June 2, 2003 - 11:28 pm:

What a sad lack of compassion from some of you supposedly superior animals. If a creator made you, it did a poor job.

By Paul in Illinois on Tuesday, June 3, 2003 - 12:27 am:

What if someone decided it was a waste of time to do research on mold? That's a pretty dumb thing to study. But someone decided to see what use mold might have and we got penicillin. We knew warfrin kills rats and mice, research on this known poison proved that, in measured doses, it can keep people alive longer - Coumidin. An Italian physician long ago experimented with mixing two acids and glycerol together and found the mix would relieve chest pain. Nobel exploited another property of nitro-glycerine.
It is easy and popular to criticize basic research - often the first experiments appear to be dead ends. Knowledge gained in understanding pain in fish may or may not provide a key to pain management in humans - do we dare stop research?
Today seemed a bit more heated than yesterday's education issues. This is the US of A and we have the right to express our thoughts. We have the right to fish and eat fish or not to fish or eat fish. If we expect to have our opinions heard and respected, then we need to listen to and respect other people's opinions. Personally, I don't like to eat fish so I will never bother to go out and try to catch any. I do like to eat meat and have dispatched various animals for that purpose. I can't say that I found that to be "fun", so I haven't had any desire to hunt for sport. It is much more of an accomplishment to raise an animal than to kill it. This doesn't mean I don't like all those who hunt and fish, the vast majority are good people and they have every right to enjoy their sport. Bottom line, we can disagree with and question each other. That is our way. If, however, we start attacking each other, we start to drift away from the principles upon with this country was founded.

By steve ristola;minnesota on Tuesday, June 3, 2003 - 12:28 am:

Wow.2 days in a row that the cam notes have to be edited.I do have to respond to DM from Md.Lighten up already....please

By DM, MD on Tuesday, June 3, 2003 - 12:37 am:

Steve, I find most people to be far too light and shallow which helps them maintain their constant state of denial, whether it be of the pain of other animals or of the general consequences of their actions. I'm not interested in being like them, thanks.

By mike IL. on Tuesday, June 3, 2003 - 12:48 am:

thank you mr wheatman. dear bev i am not a avid fishermen but i was wondering was there something in the bible about the loaves & fishes? now you make me wonder if the farmers are bad when they harvest their crops? would disturb a lot of people here in corn,bean& wheat area in central IL.

By Jennifer - CA on Tuesday, June 3, 2003 - 01:17 am:

Hey DM, Why are you so surprised when when people act as they do if we are all, as you say, "superior animals"?
Love the pics, miss the U.P.!!

By Rich, Michigan on Tuesday, June 3, 2003 - 01:20 am:

I probably should correct my posting, based on the comments from Paul. As a strong proponent of science, I in fact have no problem with research in any form that leads to usefull results. My basic knowledge on the fish issue, though, is that the research was done more on the basis to prove the claims of animal rights activists. This in turn fosters comments from people such as Bev - and provokes discussions such as this. How someone can look at pictures such as these and only see negative is beyond me. Charlie - on behalf of all, sorry this has taken up so much space on what is usually a refreshing place to visit each day.

By ILMHitCC on Tuesday, June 3, 2003 - 03:52 am:

Sheeesh! And here I thought fisherpeople were such an easy-going lot. What a touchy bunch!! I'm way too stressed, I need a break. Now, where's my pole...!?

By danbury; Germany on Tuesday, June 3, 2003 - 05:03 am:

Wow, all that fuss 'bout a pic of some guy fishing - and now I'm going to add some more - geez. As far as I know, the homo sapiens is designed to be able to be eating all kinds of food - animal stuff, plant stuff, and even that weird stuff I get in american Supermarkets, like Fluff (just kidding). Does include fish, though. Central question seems to me the matter of respect - to one's fellow citizens, one's environment, one's children (have to clean up the mess one is leaving behind), and, oh my, even your enemies. But yes, I think one can respect fish (e.g.) by not destroying their habitat and still enjoy eating them. After all, we're higher up in the foodchain. Our choice.
(Don't people enjoy picking on each other, screaming "accept my superiority you .......", just to prove themselves "right"?)

By Gary, CO on Tuesday, June 3, 2003 - 06:31 pm:

Mosquitos, Blackflies, No-see-ums, and Ticks have inflicted more pain on me over the years than I have ever inflicted on fish lips. If anyone is keeping score, Mother Nature is way ahead in this game. This isn't even counting the times I've hooked myself!

By Ryan, coming back UP in August on Tuesday, June 3, 2003 - 09:17 pm:

Isn't it nice that we can have different opinions but each make our own decisions? Yes Gary, :-) I think Mother Nature is ahead of too.
If I were a fish, I think I'd rather be eaten by a human than be eaten slowly by a bird or devoured by a bear.

By JB MI on Wednesday, June 4, 2003 - 03:05 pm:

I find it very puzzling that animal rights and other liberal groups try to say that conservative people are so close minded and not tolerant of of other ideas. But show a young man enjoying nature and it's surroundings fishing and the animal rights people just go off on some tangent. He could be out hurting people or himself in some other form of entertainment or problem behavior. Instead of seeing the positive in what he is doing they want to destroy the experience and try to convince him that he is doing something wrong. See this young man for what he is, someone enjoying what the creator has given to us to enjoy, {which includes eating fish and fishing} and the beautifull scenery in front of him. I for one am very thankfull for pictures like these, fishing and hunting are a very big part of the u.p. heritage. And a very big part of the commerce of our economy. It seems that the anti hunting and fishing movement really comes from people who don't have there roots from the rural areas. And who don't understand the people of the U.P.

By Polish on Thursday, June 5, 2003 - 12:54 am:

does any one know why we can't post on some of these? I was posting to the old apostolic lutheran one and now we cant. why?

By Delaware on Wednesday, September 3, 2003 - 11:21 pm:

Polish-- Did you ever find where the old apostolic posts are now? I'd be very interested in reading more...

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