Dec 18-11

Past-E-Mail: Cam Notes - 2011: December: Dec 18-11
'Occupy' Calumet 1913    ...scroll down to share comments
Photos from Copper Country Reflections

Charlie at Pasty Central (Chopper) on Sunday, December 18, 2011 - 09:22 am:

Interesting to note that Time Magazine's "Person of the Year" award for 2011 went to "The Protester". The current 'Occupy' stories, and this years struggles in the Arab world are miles and decades away from demonstrations that focused attention on the Copper Country almost a century ago.

This morning's Day in History mentions a man who was born during that time here in Houghton, who ended up on Wall Street, not as a banker but an attorney. Frank Stone's great grandfather was one of the founders of Marquette. He was a lifelong friend of the late Herman Gundlach. Next time you're in the Portage Library you might find the name of Frank B. Stone among the contributors who helped build the library in honor of "Winks" Gundlach.

Time passes, but the struggles and controversies remain much the same. No doubt as we approach the 100 year mark of the labor unrest in the Copper Country, there will be more attention to that time and place. A good resource to see more of that period is Copper Country Reflections, a rich part of Pasty Central's archives.

Have a good week :o)

By Alex "UP-Goldwinger" (Alex) on Sunday, December 18, 2011 - 09:29 am:

What has been will be again,
what has been done will be done again;
there is nothing new under the sun.
Ecclesiastes 1:9

By Shirley Waggoner (Shirlohio) on Sunday, December 18, 2011 - 09:45 am:


By FJL (Langoman) on Sunday, December 18, 2011 - 09:58 am:

Big difference between striking for working conditions and occupying for entitlements......

By Shirley Waggoner (Shirlohio) on Sunday, December 18, 2011 - 10:11 am:


By Dave Smith (Dmsmith222) on Sunday, December 18, 2011 - 10:15 am:

The occupation of Wall Street is to protest corporate influence on democracy, address a growing disparity in wealth, and the absence of legal repercussions behind the recent global financial crisis. It has nothing to due with entitlements.

By FJL (Langoman) on Sunday, December 18, 2011 - 10:23 am:

I did mention liberal propaganda the other day, and it makes its apperance again..........

By Mr. Bill (Mrbill) on Sunday, December 18, 2011 - 10:33 am:

Amen on the entitlements!

By Tom (Tom) on Sunday, December 18, 2011 - 10:42 am:

The part of Dave's email, "growing disparity in wealth" is the initiator of the Wall Street group.
They want something for nothing. They are not content to work for what they receive. Some how they think that wealth can be redistributed to their favor.
As long as I can remember there has been this "money envy" in the US.
As long as people have ordinary talents to offer to the business sector their income will be ordinary.
Extra-ordinary talent is not evenly distributed among the population. Why should you expect the
income distribution to be different? Hmmm,I guess
the old communist model could be revisited? Or even the socialist model which has been somewhat
dismanteled in countries like Sweden. And is the cause of the budget problems in much of Europe.

By Shirley Waggoner (Shirlohio) on Sunday, December 18, 2011 - 10:50 am:

The U.S. is a republic, not a democracy....big difference.

By Bob Rupe (Bingobob) on Sunday, December 18, 2011 - 11:51 am:

Occupy Raleigh yesterday had 6 participants arrested for not following police orders to stay on the sidewalk. They were mostly late 20's early 30's from all over the USA. From Alaska, California, Pennsylvania, one, the youngest at 19, was from Raleigh. This group is renting a commercial lot to camp on (@ $400 / month)and the temps here at night are under freezing. I do not get what these folks are thinking.

By Paul H. Meier (Paul) on Sunday, December 18, 2011 - 12:00 pm:

The events of the late 19th and early 20th centuries offer real proof that laissez faire Capitalism didn't work. The Capitalists, being human, were in need of some restraint. The events of the last 70 -80 years offer the proof that Communism and Socialism don't work. If you look at this country at its peak, we had a strong middle class and a reasonably regulated capitalist system. We lost that somehow and we now consume more than we produce. We have almost as many takers as makers. This is very dangerous, look at Greece, they have more takers than makers.
The Occupy Wall Street people are occupying the wrong place. They should be occupying Washington. Over the past 45 years or so it has been the 535 members of Congress and the Senate that have led us to this. They have taken money from both Wall Street and labor while selling influence or entitlements. All while exempting themselves from many of the laws they enacted. It is time to hold them accountable - vote them out in November.

By Dave Smith (Dmsmith222) on Sunday, December 18, 2011 - 12:28 pm:

A large part of the reason for the "growing disparity in wealth" is that the greedy corparations are cutting wages while expecting the same if not more amount of work out of their employees. They demand and get huge tax breaks from the government which is then made up for by the shrinking middle class. Programs that we financed all our carears through our tax dollars are being chopped to smithereens. Starting Jan 1st retirees in Michigan will be paying state taxes for the first time, on their pensions. The state found over a billion dollars in the financial dept. just recently. Want to guess who this is going to? The big, greedy corparations!!

By SARAH CUDLIP (Porter) on Sunday, December 18, 2011 - 12:49 pm:

All these young "Occupiers" are boo-hooing the fact that they can't get a job after graduation. Well let's see. How many people do we need in the work force with Liberal Arts degrees? And why haven't a single one of these cry babies protested the all to high tuition at the very colleges they graduated from? Are they afraid to step on all the liberal college profesor's toes that sent them out into the world?

By Shirley Waggoner (Shirlohio) on Sunday, December 18, 2011 - 01:14 pm:

Good all-around point, Sarah! These 'occupiers' put me in mind of the 'hippies generation'...they don't really know what they're protesting...just want to 'protest'! Socialism rears its ugly head once more.
Charlie, bet you wish you'd chosen another subject today, eh?;-)

By Dave Smith (Dmsmith222) on Sunday, December 18, 2011 - 01:46 pm:

The protests are against social and economic inequality, high unemployment, greed, as well as corruption, and the undue influence of corporations—particularly from the financial services sector—on government. The protesters' slogan We are the 99% refers to the growing income and wealth inequality in the U.S. between the wealthiest 1% and the rest of the population. The protests in New York City have sparked similar protests and movements around the world.

If you are fortunate to be a part of that 1%, count your blessings. Realize, everyday, more are losing their jobs to this corporate greed, don't fool yourself into thinking, it can't happen to you. There but for the grace of God, go I.

By ILMHitCC (Ilmhitcc) on Sunday, December 18, 2011 - 02:05 pm:

Haha - Yes, history does indeed repeat itself. On
the other hand, it appears the
market is looking up in swampland and used bridges
for some specially talented
Do you have any information, Charlie, about the
people in the photo? There looks
to be a few women at the front of the march, and I
wonder what the chances are
that one might be Big Annie.

By Charlie at Pasty Central (Chopper) on Sunday, December 18, 2011 - 02:41 pm:

Chuck Voelker says with the photo that he thinks it is not Big Annie carrying the sign, because she was so much bigger than the average person.

I'll bet some of the folks in the march are great-grandparents of many who live here in the Copper Country today. Interesting to note in the newspaper reports of the day, more often than not, they were called "agitators" instead of protesters, strikers (or occupiers). In the final analysis, the labor movement was not as successful for miners in the Upper Peninsula as it was downstate with auto workers. Maybe the labeling by the local media contributed to the outcome.

Interesting discussion. Our topics are normally a bit milder on the daily Pasty Cam. It's good to know disagreement can still be expressed in a forum of mutual respect and civility.

By Sharon I. Smith (Sharons) on Sunday, December 18, 2011 - 02:45 pm:

Shouldn't all of these posts belong on the "Politics and Religion, Ketchup or Gravy" page? We are all entitled to our own opinions (thank God, I live in the USA!) but I don't happen to agree with any of you and I would rather not read about it.
That's my rant for the day.

By D. A. (Midwested) on Sunday, December 18, 2011 - 02:54 pm:

To Dave:

Virtually every one of your comments about corporations should be reviewed in the light of how those corporations are simply responding to government laws and regulations. They are simply dealing with conditions that have been created by the government (e.g. free trade). They are simply interacting with members of the legislature and the executive to the extent that those government members allow.

If people in business are breaking laws during the above actions they can be and should be prosecuted by the government. How many big business/Wall Street people have been prosecuted recently? Virtually none.

Certainly a minimum set of business morals above and beyond the law are important for prosperous commerce to take place but is protesting business really the answer? If some bank was “too big to fail” in 2008 why is it allowed to be even bigger today?

Are we really expecting that Wall Street can be given an “attitude adjustment” such that THEY will then become responsible for holding government’s feet to the fire? What I see are OWS people that desire even bigger change, potentially, by collapsing the entire system.

Thanks Charlie for the change of pace today. A further historical study of movements similar to OWS during the early 20th century reveals just how close we came to its own communist/socialist revolution back then.


By Dave Smith (Dmsmith222) on Sunday, December 18, 2011 - 03:59 pm:

To Ed:

I happen to feel that corruption, and the undue influence of corporations—particularly from the financial services sector—on government, via lobbiest and campaign donations, to benefit said corporations, is against the law, or at least should be. The fact that they are getting away with this, is in fact part of the reason for OWS. The banks that were too big to fail in 2008, were in fact bailed out by taxpayer monies. The same taxpayers that the banks are foreclosing on now. The government bailed out many companies and banks then, and now when people can't find jobs, the government is selling them down the river by cutting the programs that were put in place using the same taxpayers money, to give large tax breaks to the corporations and the rich. It is easy to see why the 99% are so PO'd.

By jbuck (Jbuck) on Sunday, December 18, 2011 - 04:24 pm:

The Occupiers need to remember this quote, attributed to Margaret Thatcher:

"The problem with socialism is that eventually you run out of other people's money"

By Dave Smith (Dmsmith222) on Sunday, December 18, 2011 - 04:48 pm:

Somehow everyone thinks that this is a socialism debate. All the so called "entitlements" were fiananced by my tax dollars for over 30 years of working and now 5 years of pension that "I earned!" Now they want to take my money out of the programs I funded, and give it to the greedy corporations and rich through tax breaks for them. I cry FOUL!!! How many billions of our social security payments from our paychecks, were siphoned off, by the government? Leaving that program in danger, and me vulnerable to not getting back what I put in. Again, I cry FOUL!!!

By Shirley Waggoner (Shirlohio) on Sunday, December 18, 2011 - 05:06 pm:

Thank you, jbuck, and your quote from Margaret Thatcher (a very intelligent woman)! As my final input here I'd like to quote the old adage: "If you can't stand the heat, get out of the kitchen."

By below the bridge (Wolterdr) on Sunday, December 18, 2011 - 05:07 pm:

today's "Day In History" was very informative; LOVED
the pics! :)

By Daveofmohawk (Daveofmohawk) on Sunday, December 18, 2011 - 10:26 pm:

The working class and the poor have always been under the big thumb of the wealthy and the big corporations. History repeats itself. Just heard on the news that 1 in 2 Americans are now living at or below the poverty level; 146 million people.

By Dave Smith (Dmsmith222) on Sunday, December 18, 2011 - 10:59 pm:

America, the greatest country in the free world... Half of our people live in poverty? When will we sound the alarms? We send billions overseas to other countries. We can't afford to feed our own? I am sorry, this is unacceptable to me!!!

By mickill mouse (Ram4) on Monday, December 19, 2011 - 06:50 am:

SHARON SMITH; I agree with you.

By mickill mouse (Ram4) on Monday, December 19, 2011 - 06:51 am:

That it should be on the other page.

By FJL (Langoman) on Monday, December 19, 2011 - 07:52 am:

I was told more than once by some on this site that if I don't like a post, just skip it.

Something about a shoe being on the other foot??

By Deb S. (Usedtobeayooper) on Monday, December 19, 2011 - 08:16 am:

I agree with Sharon, also!! And for once, FJL and I are on the same page. The rest belongs on its own page. Just sayin.....

By Deb S. (Usedtobeayooper) on Monday, December 19, 2011 - 08:29 am:

OOPS!! I meant I agree with FJL about skipping the posts. No doubt we've all said that at one time or another. BUT I agree with Sharon also. They should be on a different page.

By Shirley Waggoner (Shirlohio) on Monday, December 19, 2011 - 09:40 am:

Did all of you read Charlie's last statement above? Since he is our host, I believe we respected him and didn't overstep the 'bounds' set by him, and I think he expressed his appreciation for the manner in which everyone 'behaved', which is admirable of him. Thank you, Charlie!

By David S. (Yooperdfs) on Monday, December 19, 2011 - 10:22 am:

Does anyone find it odd that after centuries of socialist poverty, China finally embraced capitalism and is booming, while the USA, after two centuries of booming capitalism has decided to move towards socialism, redistribution and sees capitalism as 'unfair'? Amazing.

By Robert Goniea (Rjgoniea) on Monday, December 19, 2011 - 10:23 am:

Yes, America is the greatest country in the world.
That 1 in 2 stat is sooo misleading as to be
laughable. Does anyone here realize that most of
those classified as 'poor' in that statistic would
be considered well off in most of the world? You
people calling yourselves the 99%ers, compared to
the rest of the world you ARE the 1%. Here is a
great article on what the people the government
says are poor have access to:


Just a couple of highlights:
The poor today live better than all but the rich
est persons from 100 years ago
In 2005, the typical household defined as poor by
the government had a car, air conditioning,two
color televisions, cable or satellite TV, a DVD
player, and a VCR. If there were children,
especially boys, in the home, the family had a
game system, such as an Xbox or a PlayStation. In
the kitchen, the household had a refrigerator, an
oven and stove, and a microwave. Other household
conveniences included a clothes washer, clothes
dryer, ceiling fans, a cordless phone, and a
coffee maker.

This is not a denial that we have poor in America,
just that it's not as bad as the govt would like
you to think

By Shirley Waggoner (Shirlohio) on Monday, December 19, 2011 - 10:50 am:

But don't you know, David and Robert, 'free-thinking' Americans are supposed to ignore the elephant standing in the middle of the living room, and just ingest our daily dose of propaganda pablum?

By dpm (Dpm) on Monday, December 19, 2011 - 11:35 am:

The strikers in 1913 were called communists, socialists, agitators, and every other manner of rude names by the bosses and capitalists (most of whom were not from the area but from the East Coast) who ran the mines. Funny how those in power tend to resort to the same smears and lies whenever those below ask for a fair piece of the pie that they had a hand (literally or figuratively) in creating. The regurgitation of propaganda-speak on these boards is staggering.

As an aside: notice in the photo the complete absence of one of the things that makes the Keweenaw and the rest of the UP so beautiful -- there are no trees to be seen anywhere.

By Janie T. (Bobbysgirl) on Monday, December 19, 2011 - 03:00 pm:

My occupation deals with titling cars. There are Government *assisted* people driving 2008 or newer cars, Impala's, Taurus', not that many economy/budget cars. How can they wing that? Perhaps they should *thank* us for making that possible?

By Shirley Waggoner (Shirlohio) on Monday, December 19, 2011 - 03:12 pm:

Don't hold your breath, Janie.
You all know what?....I'll bet Charlie will look far and wide before he'll put some subject like this one on the 'front page' again.;-)

By Paul H. Meier (Paul) on Monday, December 19, 2011 - 11:57 pm:

The trees went to buildings, mine props, and home heating. Even as late as the 1930's and '40's pictures of the Copper County "urban" areas had few trees. Nature does eventually reclaim what man removed.

By David Soumis (Davesou) on Wednesday, December 21, 2011 - 10:46 pm:

wow ... I haven't posted here in quite awhile, and I come back and find this debate .... I'm in shock, actually.

I am part of the occupy movement ... who would ever believe that? :) I did go to Washington as someone suggested, and took part in occupy DC/October 2011....look it up and look up what it stands for. Dave Smith is right on target.

Why do a lot of you blame everything on socialists and communists? Can someone tell me why its so bad to have healthcare for everyone? Why is it bad that everyone gets an equal and free education? Or why is it bad to have something like social security to fall back on when you retire? or medicare? Do you guys realize the very people that are screaming against us regular people having these things have it as well, but even more? Those in congress have free healthcare, paid for by us. They get their salaries for life even if they only serve one term...and medical coverage....and we pay it through our taxes. Same money I've been paying for over 40 years...and then you call it entitlements? That is MY money that I put in there...all of our money. WE deserve to get it back....with interest.

I'm really confused why its wrong to help each other. Not all of the people receiving subsidies, food stamps and so forth are lazy , bon bon eaters trying to screw the system. Sure, there are some, no different than some of your lazy coworkers that you all whine about everyday. I think a lot of you need to take a harder look at what is happening in this country....a serious real look at it. This country is being run into the ground, along with the middle class. There is so much propaganda and lies it would make your head spin. Do you think Jesus was a capitalist? just saying.

By Dean Dasson (Deaner) on Thursday, December 22, 2011 - 12:24 pm:

I've been away from reading these posts for some time. Sorry to see that has become a right wing, tea party sort of affair.
Oh well, i guess all good things end.
PS I guess you anti"entitlement" folks will be swearing off your medicare and social security benefits...Er, "entitlements" right away huh?
And then maybe any pesky old farm subsidies...

By David Soumis (Davesou) on Thursday, December 22, 2011 - 07:59 pm:

AMERICA IS NOT #1 IN THE WORLD. YOU MaY THINK WE ARE , BUT WE'VE BEEN GOING STEADILY DOWN FOR QUITE SOME TIME. LOOK AT EDucation, healthcare statistics. we're near the bottom of nearly every category in the developed world. plus we sell more weapons than anyone, torture, wars, blind eye to global warming, refuse to sign treaty to get rid of landmines, PAtriot Act, the new NDAA ....we're far from #1

By Robert Ziebell (Vinnyfinlandia) on Monday, December 26, 2011 - 09:53 am:

Thank you Deaner for pointing out the hypocrisy of most of the
"entitlement" comments.

I believe Pasty.Net itself was trying to get some of that
"entitlement" money not that long ago to upgrade the internet
since all the "major" corporations said "no thanks" to
improving internet access to folks on the Keweenaw. A
socialist plot!

So please folks, stick by your beliefs and cancel your
Pasty.Net subscriptions now! Live the dream and stand by
your morals however ill-informed they are!

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