Discussion about the discussion

Past-E-Mail: Various Topics: Misc Fall 2004: Discussion about the discussion
Charlie at Pasty Central on Tuesday, November 2, 2004 - 06:28 am:

First of all, let me ask that your comments on this page stick to one topic: the future of our interactive discussion at Pasty Central. We would really like to hear your suggestions about how this area should be managed.

To put this forum feature in perspective: usually, far less than 1% of the people who visit this site post messages. (Yesterday slightly exceeded 1% according to our logs).

When we started this website almost 9 years ago, our primary mission was to share our love for the U.P. - its beauty, history, people and culture. For several years, a few of us posted the daily picture and passed along comments from numerous emails we received. Then we expanded to allow for immediate posting capability (years before the current 'blog' craze). The comments were generally on topic, pleasant and upbeat - and usually focused on Michigan's Upper Peninsula. As the number of participants grew, there was an obvious desire to discuss other topics, chat between individuals, post personal artwork, etc. We received much feedback about this evolution of the forum, both positive and negative.

We are attempting to address this variety of desires by providing a parallel area for posting general notes, and leaving the daily picture discussion ("Cam Notes") intact. The results have been a bit of a surprise. Perhaps the timing of this change (right before the election) was not the best choice.

Pasty Central is one of those rare community discussion boards where visitors can leave messages without registering. As a result, some individuals post multiple notes under different names, some include content which carries possible legal consequences (slander, liable, etc.). We take responsible action when it becomes necessary, and this requires valuable time on the part of our staff.

We would welcome you thoughts on the future direction of this feature.

Charlie Hopper

By Mike, MI on Tuesday, November 2, 2004 - 07:23 am:

Charlie, I like to look every day to see the picture that is posted. I also enjoyed the banter that followed. Every once in a while it seems that we all need to express ourselves, and I am disappointed that we all can't be tolerant of other opinions. I have only commented to this site maybe a dozen times in the passed 2 years, and will probably continue in the whatsup page when compelled. I hope that moderating does not become too much of a burden and jeopardize the sharing of sights of the UP. Please keep up the good work. Thank you for keeping this site so enjoyable.

By LS - Michigander on Tuesday, November 2, 2004 - 07:32 am:

I'm in agreement with Mike. I do enjoy the FRIENDLY banter and am disappointed when there is intolerance of opinion. I hope the new format will work well for all.

By Becky. Lansing/Tamarack City on Tuesday, November 2, 2004 - 08:43 am:

Seems common sense, the golden rule and tastefulness should guide the way in most cases. Keep up the good work, it is much appreciated.

By Alan, Kansas City, MO on Tuesday, November 2, 2004 - 08:43 am:

I like the fact that you've split the discussion between the picture of the day "what's up".

I know it can be burdensome for the moderators to read all of the rhetoric to help keep things clean and civil.

To those posted above, I take issue with your talking about "intolerance".

One person's intolerance is another person's expressing of a differing opinion.

I didn't see a lot of intolerance, just disagreement.

The right to free speech isn't free. In a society with free speech, you don't have the right to not be offended. Otherwise we sink into total political correctness.

If you don't like what you were reading, then stay out of the "what's up" section of the Pastycam site, and enjoy and comment on the pictures. Don't grouse about it. If you don't like what you hear (read) you have two choices:

1. Move away from it--no one is forcing you to hear (read) about it or. . .

2. Post your opinion without attacking others.

Your choice. Isn't America great?

Thanks Charlie and Mary. I love the new feature, and, yes, you may have chosen a somewhat inopportune time to launch it, but I support you 100%

By maijaMI on Tuesday, November 2, 2004 - 08:44 am:

I'm concerned about the editors being able to manage all this.

I do have the feeling that it will die down somewhat, but think that some order imposed on the site would help us all. The 'it's a new month' page got huge!

I'm wondering if all the pages should be designated topics. The 'start a new topic' page could be free-form and ideas moved to new pages by topic.

I also REALLY wish that people would use their e-mails. I wonder why they don't! On-going personal chatting is a lot to wade through. I have never minded personal comments: people looking for links to others, kind wishes sent, humorous banter like the Betsy clan, etc. But back and forth chatter gets in the way. Betsy clan would make a great 'hunting camp' topic page. Some would love it, others can freely ignore it.

I also wish people would use their e-mail because I have had some good experiences contacting people or having people contact me. I really appreciated the good wishes that were sent my way recently, but I also wondered if I was cluttering up the site with postings others didn't care to read.

By The Dam Guy, Parasite Creek on Tuesday, November 2, 2004 - 08:47 am:

Generally, I've found that the comments are usually related to the posted photo albeit indirectly at times. The excellent photography is also bound to spark discussion on water issues,
lumbering issues, mining issues and more, because the UP IS about water, mining and logging as well
as mosquitoes, ticks and tourists. (This was perhaps a subconscious grouping, but I'll let it stand :). It is just a shame that internet discussion contains and supports a dearth of manners and common courtesy and that civilized discussion of opposing viewpoints is becoming a
lost art form. There wouldn't be any NEED for censorship if people would just practice a little respect and restraint, much in the same way that there wouldn't be any NEED for beer if God hadn't invented wives and girlfriends. I am, of course, jesting.

By Marie, Howell, MI on Tuesday, November 2, 2004 - 08:59 am:

The best part of the whole Patsy Cam, besides the beautiful pictures, is the banter. How silly that people would want that in a separate area. Transplants from all over long for what you have... a sense of community and a freedom. That's what made this site what it was!! Hometown people knowing who lived where and what they were doing and sharing it freely.

Just by reading this site when I visited my son at Tech, I got a feeling I knew the people who live there just from the ideas and topics they share. You also helped me discover areas I didn't know existed. Let's go back to that and not make us come to this page. Have a good day. Go and vote for what you believe in.

By Alice, Ventura, CA on Tuesday, November 2, 2004 - 09:36 am:

I love the pictures, but also the issues that they brought up like the lumbering, history of the area, water, mining, etc. I have to agree with Marie above that that was one of the things that made this site so special. It was a sense of community, and even when the remarks were somewhat personal, if they related to the area as a whole or a better understanding of the area/people, they seemed appropriate.

I think the objection is to the personal, cryptic email-like remarks that the rest of us don't understand or were a party to and that went on and on. It felt like we were intruding on someone else's personal emails and that they should actually have used email to do their personal business. It is tough to have to have someone else regulate our remarks. We should have the sense to understand what is appropriate and of interest to the "community."

By danbury on Tuesday, November 2, 2004 - 09:41 am:

Great point made about the hunting part these last few days, maija. Same goes for the E-Mails.
What's up, people? Too much spam?
I usually love to put in my two cents, but think it's too early, what with all that voting banter (ok, guilty as charged, but still) and general excitement about the new format.
Plead apologetically guilty to one of the sins above - no promises included since usually nothing was deleted.

By danbury on Tuesday, November 2, 2004 - 09:46 am:

Sorry, me again. Once had a longer exchange on site, going to and fro, friendly of course. Suggested to mail instead, but other side said discussion probably of interest for all, although topic was in no way UP related. No one minded, so we kept it on site, and I think it's still there. So, how to decide?

By Patti, TN on Tuesday, November 2, 2004 - 09:57 am:

Charlie & Crew. I appreciate and support your decision 100% to segment the discussions. I don't see any problem in providing different pages for the different types of discussions. I don't really view that as censorship or monitoring. Everyone still has their way (they can still post), and their 'say'. I see it as staying true to yourself, and your original intent, as you expressed it in your third paragraph. Thanks.

By Mike in Florida on Tuesday, November 2, 2004 - 10:14 am:

Are the readers no longer allowed to post their own
pictures on the "Picture" site? I greatly enjoyed seeing
the variety of wonderful pictures.

By Very confused on Tuesday, November 2, 2004 - 10:21 am:

I'm confused. Was the posting on the VOTE site wrong? I thought that we had the option of posting on the picture in one spot and other issues at another site? Am I right? I'll tell you that sometimes a picture will bring up something funny and everyone will chit chat about it. Like the picture of the man in the water with binoculars...remember all the hilarious comments that went with that? Ok, and then you have people talking about hunting and etc...where do you draw the line where the comments are no longer related to the picture? I remember you would just say "We've moved it to such and such site" and then we could go there if we wanted to. Why did you change the format from the way that it always was? And please explain to me the definition of legal consequences in posts. I am very curious about all this. I will admit I am a little dense in all this types of things, but I really liked it before all the changes.

Confused, I'm going to jump in here and answer about the VOTE postings...No, they weren't wrong, but with so many postings, I spent most of my day checking them to make sure there were no personal attacks. Some did, some bordered on it, so I felt compelled to return more frequently than I normally would have (this is a part-time job), just to keep it all in check. Charlie's decision to end that discussion, in my opinion, was wise, as pretty much everything that could be said, had been already said and you can still read it. No more talk, now it's time for action, go exercise your voting rights! ...Mary Drew at Pasty Central :->

By pasty lover on Tuesday, November 2, 2004 - 10:26 am:

I feel like there might be too many sites to check into. Kinda looses the closeness of our little community.

By yahoo in flatland on Tuesday, November 2, 2004 - 10:53 am:

I see you have eliminated the "create/start new discussion" (whatever it was called) option, and that is probably a good thing. (That was going to be my suggestion.)
If you keep it to just 1 new page for "Whats UP" & one new page for the "Picture of the day" that should be enough & make things less intense.

I think that when we saw a page called "Vote" that just caused many of us (myself included) to think about posting on that topic, which of course ran way out of control.

As you said, the timing with the Election just made things crazy.
I hope you are willing to give this new format a chance AFTER things settle down.

Many have posted about the fact that sometimes the picture just causes other conversations, related to the UP to start.

This question comes to mind; If the subject of a post is about something UP related, which comes to mind, because of the picture posted...
and are NOT a personal message or random comment (like the Little Betsy discussions, which are funny, but probably belong on the Whats UP page)
...can those comments perhaps remain on the picture page?

By Candy, CA on Tuesday, November 2, 2004 - 11:01 am:

Charlie, since the "start new discussion" button is gone, does that mean you'd prefer posters to choose between the cam page (posts relating to the picture of the day) or a "blog" page, and not have many pages going at once?

That might make things much more simple for everyone -- only two pages to monitor, and two to go through on any given day. The "blog" page could be open-ended, with tangental conversations such as those that have developed lately on the cam page. This would allow anyone who chooses to leave a comment or greeting, or stir the pot a little, depending on their outlook.

We still need rules to play nice by. Even though I have posted without leaving my email on many occasions (and with it often as well), I think having a real email address associated with names will weed out people who just want to make a mean comment or who post something that may be potentially libelous. Fortunately, while Charlie, Mary, Toivo and anyone else who fills in for them are likely immune from defamation liability under current laws (see: http://techlawadvisor.com/blog/2004/06/libel-blogs-round-up.html), that may change at any time, because we are, unfortunately, a litigous society and want to be paid for any hurt, real or imagined.

Charlie, I hope you are all able to find a way to keep my favorite (first in the morning, last before bed) website going. I love to read what everyone has to say, love the pictures and galleries you have thoughtfully provided space for and love the feeling of community that exists. Maybe we all have an opportunity to clean up our acts to keep pasty.com viable, fun (for us AND for our moderators) and open to all comers.

By Scott, Illinois on Tuesday, November 2, 2004 - 11:03 am:

If multiple discussions/forums are being considered, I'd like to suggest that Pasty.com look at another way of doing the forums. The "Cam Notes" format works very well for the intended purpose. I believe that the format is inefficient when multiple topics are running. Why not look at something like vBulletin, YABB, or similar forum scripts? These scripts allow the webmaster to set up multiple forums and effectively manage tvarious topics. Other benefits include the ability to have moderators for each forum. This would lighten the administrative burdon.

As far as posting my e-mail address on websites.....I refuse to post my e-mail address on an open site because of spam. Spammers scan thousands of web pages daily to get address for their lists. Even if you use things like "nospam" or "at" in your message they still can get the address. Once on a spammers list, the only way to stop the flood is to change your e-mail address.

Keep up the good work Charlie & Crew!

By Bryan, Michigan on Tuesday, November 2, 2004 - 11:14 am:

Charlie, I just want to thank you for all the great things you have created on this website. I am putting in my vote to keep the comments the way you had them before, all on one page with the photo of the day. I liked the way that the comments flowed into new topics and they all were together in one place. It seemed to me to create more of a sense of community, than the having two pages.

By shelly/Yankee in Texas on Tuesday, November 2, 2004 - 11:25 am:

I would like to say that when I first came across this site I fell in love with it. It was a place where I felt I belonged. People who loved Michigan and also had a sense of humor. It never bothered me when someone got off the subject, or just logged on to say Hello, or whatever. I would just skip over it if I wasn't interested. I don't understand why someone would get irritated with that. Anyway, it seems that somehow its kinda changed into something less than it was and I find myself checking in to see the picture and then checking out without commenting. I did chit chat yesterday, but have done less and less over the past few weeks. I appreciate the site and am in awe of all the talent of the photographers, but miss the community it used to seem to be. It was fun to log on and say Hello and see names of people that were on every day and saying Hello back and etc. I'm sorry if my posts irritated anyone and I think maybe sometimes just looking will be best for me in the future.

By Pasty Fan on Tuesday, November 2, 2004 - 11:37 am:

Why can't everyone just accept this???? None of your complaining is going to change anything. The audacity to complain about something that's for free is beyond me. Lets all accept the fact that this is the new Pasty.com and it is going to stay. Instead of complaining, why don't you thank the Pasty folks. Lets all try to make their jobs easier. Make your next post a positive post, please!


By Cori, U.P. on Tuesday, November 2, 2004 - 11:41 am:

Thanks for all of your work with pasty.com! I really enjoy checking it but have rarely posted. When I was away at college downstate and at seminary in St. Paul, I was able to get a taste of home everyday through your website. I absolutely love the photos, and I find the conversation really interesting.

However, I don't like the new format nearly as much as the old. I didn't mind glancing through personal posts that I didn't understand without knowing the context. I liked that people had a place where they could talk about whatever came to their minds U.P.-related. I preferred seeing all the posts in one place. It was fun, informative, and a little random in a good way.

I remember when a bunch of us were posting our thanks to our U.P. troops in Iraq. Though many of the comments may have been considered personal, or not related to the photo, I think it was a wonderful use for the website forum. And I will actually miss wondering what is so great about Groundhog's Day that it warrants poetry! I never understood it, but it fascinated me! ;)

Thanks again for providing this wonderful service to all of us!


By Diana, MI on Tuesday, November 2, 2004 - 11:44 am:

Charlie, maybe registration IS the key to making this site easier to manage. You have mentioned some negative consequences of NOT REQUIRING that people be registered in order to post; what are the downsides to REQUIRING that people be registered here in order to post? What exactly does registration entail?

It seems to me a little misleading for people to post multiple notes under different names. Registration might cause people to really consider what they are posting, and be more accountable, which would make your job easier, I think.

I found this site because I have two students attending MTU currently. I enjoy your photo of the day, and I often e-mail it to my children as a bright spot in their day of studies. Your site helps me feel connected to the UP and to my children at MTU.

I live downstate, but have family ties to the UP, and have always thought that Up North (meaning north of the Big Bridge!) is the best place on the face of the earth. I have learned a lot about the Keeweenaw peninsula and the UP from all the information posted on your site.

I think it would be great if this site could maintain its original focus on the "beauty, history, people and culture" of the UP, as you stated. I think it's okay for you to limit subjects that are discussed; a discussion board doesn't have to be all things to all people.

Since you are asking, I would rather not see political discussion, or extended personal conversations between relatives on this site. Maybe there is a separate website somewhere for people to discuss politics, and e-mail could be used for extended personal conversations.

Charlie (and Mary and Toivo), thank you for this site, and for your patience, and keep up the wonderful work! :)

By Dave - Colorado on Tuesday, November 2, 2004 - 12:48 pm:

I think that you guys at Pasty.com do a great job of moderating and managing this site. And since you were the ones that started it and manage it, I think you should make it what YOU want it to be. Just let us know what you want it to be... If people do not like the way it is managed, then I suppose they can find some other place to visit.

By Tom Green Bay on Tuesday, November 2, 2004 - 12:52 pm:

I belong to a Mercedes talk site and somehow the manager of the site has an automatic block on messages that contain profanity. The message comes back to you with a sharp reprimand reminding you to not curse, etc. And this is for the most part about cars!!!! Imagine what tomorrow's postings could be like once the election is more certain? Is there some way to do a block on out of line commentary without a lot of manhours?

By R Somero CA on Tuesday, November 2, 2004 - 01:29 pm:

Whatever the final design, format, etc. is-please keep up the good work. I have connected with people I haven't heard from in over 20 years. It's just been wonderful. Thank you.

By Happy. on Tuesday, November 2, 2004 - 02:00 pm:

Complain,complain, complain,. What a bunch of gripers, never satisfied. I think this is great just the way it is. Be thankful that we have it. Pasty cam was getting pretty crowded. If I want to view the photos and talk about them I do, If I just want to gab I can come here. Whats the big deal. Settle down. Go and vote, and enjoy. Great job, Charlie and crew.

By Lisa, Wisconsin on Tuesday, November 2, 2004 - 02:47 pm:

No wonder I'm having so much trouble trying to teach my children the difference between rights and privileges. Seems like a lot of us "adults" have trouble telling the difference too . . . Being able to access a beautiful website such as this one is a privilege. This is a great site no matter what the format.

By AimeeR on Tuesday, November 2, 2004 - 03:11 pm:

I've been visiting Pasty Cam for more than 4 years now, and I can tell you a lot has changed. I have to say, it was nice when there were less than 10 comments per picture and everyone knew each other. I'm not complaining though, I still love to see the picture every day and I'm glad it's a place where people can share their love for the UP. I think the forum thing is a good idea as it is a more organized way to post.

I think most of the problems on these pages have been happening because people don't have to take any responsibility for what they post. It is much easier to hurt someone's feelings on an internet message board than go to their house and tell them. Think about it, you don't even have to see the hurt look on their face or anything. Perhaps everyone needs to think about whether or not they'd be able to say what they're typing to someone's face.

Oh, and my advice about spamming... I have a few good email addresses that I only give out to friends and family. Anything I sign up for online or post with my name, I use a separate account (hotmail, yahoo, they're free). SO, I get some spam in my "spam" account and none in my others! I never click on "unsubscribe me" links and if I think it's spam, I don't open it. That's my strategy and it's working for me.

Thanks again Pasty Cam for my daily slice of life in the UP!

By just observing on Tuesday, November 2, 2004 - 03:46 pm:

FYI to all those who think comments are about complaining, the last line of Charlie's Post says "We would welcome your thoughts on the future direction of this feature." I think people are doing just that, commenting.

By JAD, Oskar, MI on Tuesday, November 2, 2004 - 03:49 pm:

Charlie -- I too thank you and pasty.com for all your wonderful work and promoting of the UP. I preferred the old format but am willing to go with the new. One suggestion: We could limit our comments to the space of this "Add a Message" window. That would both cut down on your editing and the time it takes the rest of us to scroll through. I love the off-beat topics, some related to the pictures and some not, which arise occasionally.

By DH, Flushing, MI on Tuesday, November 2, 2004 - 04:10 pm:

I first found this sight through the MTU web sight when my son decided MTU was where he wanted to attend college. I have enjoyed it from the very first time I checked it out. I love seeing the pictures & getting information on the UP & especially in the Houghton area. Sight-seeing is always a part of our trip when dropping off & visiting my son & we have stopped at numerous places recommended on Pasty.Net. I know the eastern part of the UP well as my father was raised in Curtis & now has a cabin there. We rarely went sight seeing farther than Munising & Manistque because there were always realatives to visit. The first thing I look at every morning is this sight (it's addicting), along with the MTU Campus pictures...I feel closer to my son who is so many miles away from home (8 1/2 hrs). I find alot of the comments interesting & some are quite funny, but would have to agree that this may be a better place to have the bantering that does not pertain to the pictures or the UP! Thank-you very much for creating such a wonderful sight that I enjoy so very much!

By Yahoo from Flatland on Tuesday, November 2, 2004 - 04:50 pm:

To those who are complaining about the comments & opinions being presented here today...

Charlie ASKED for our comments!

Thank Yoju Charlie & all at PastyCam for putting up with us and for being willing to listen to many thoughts & ideas.

If this continues to be a burden on the staff, perhaps the registration suggestion is a good idea.
Every other public posting site I know of, requires some type of registration, to help keep things civil.
It's a shame, but apparently a necessary evil in the Internet Age we live in.

The reactions people have had in THIS "Discussion about the discussion" show that there is no way to please everybody.

By a thinker on Tuesday, November 2, 2004 - 05:10 pm:

I for one would gladly register my e nail and name with pasty.com ,if I it made it easier on them.
BUT I would usually want it kept private by the staff..{I would use a nick name and sometimes post my junk only e mail if I wanted}.
One site I use will post a message right away if I use my registered name and e mail BUT holds and reviews my message if I do not leave my registered name.

By J, chassell on Tuesday, November 2, 2004 - 05:40 pm:

Charlie--Whatever works best for you and your crew is what I support. Yes the new format seems kind of strange but that's how it is with any change. We'll get used to it. So, whatever you think is best. However, I did like the "cozy" feeling of the one page. I'll just go with the flow. Thanks for your hard work.

By Jody, WA on Tuesday, November 2, 2004 - 05:43 pm:

I prefer the old format of one discussion page under the daily picture. Someone pointed out last week that we could simply scroll past anything that appears undesireable to read, which is the way I chose to view the postings. Do most people take the time to read each and every post each day? Personally, my Pasty.com time is usually quite limited so the idea of having go from page to page to scan comments is going to cut down on my reading any of them. It would also seem that editing and moving so many postings would be a very cumbersome job for the webmaster and his crew. I also think JAD, Oskar had a great idea of limiting the comments to the size of this message box. (Which I have already violated! (~:* )

I too, love Pasty.com and with so many others start my day with it - a touch of home away from home. Many thanks to everyone involved in bringing this website to us everyday.

By WhoCares?, MI on Tuesday, November 2, 2004 - 09:51 pm:

AUP violation - personal attack from IP#

By RGG - Cedar Rapids on Tuesday, November 2, 2004 - 09:58 pm:

That is an inapropriate post in an inapropriate place.

Mr Waters,
History has told us that your ideas and direction have worked so far.
Keep it up. I like the idea of two areas to read and post. More opportunity to interact.

By WhoCares?, MI on Tuesday, November 2, 2004 - 10:14 pm:

AUP violation #

By jonasgirl in NM on Tuesday, November 2, 2004 - 11:56 pm:

i'm like a lot of displaced yoopers who check out pasty.com everyday, usually at work in the morning, so I can share the photos with co-workers, and they can easily understand why i'm counting down working days to retirement so meticulously! (I'll be back home before the next presidential election!) I'll keep visiting this site no matter what the format, all the links to everywhere else are SO COOL! And I look forward to scanning the messages, looking for names and places I recognize and remember. So, THANKS to Charlie and Mary and everybody who keeps this up and running, in whatever format you want!

By Louan-Elk Rapids on Wednesday, November 3, 2004 - 03:55 pm:

I like the old format. I like it when the conversation drifts. After all, how many times can you stand to read that the picture of the day is so cool, stunning, beautiful, and etc.
Time is also a factor. I don't have all day to mouse around on this site. It just feels too big. I guess, I like the feeling of conversation with friends, instead of wrestling with the tech part.

By so far so good on Wednesday, November 3, 2004 - 06:09 pm:

Now that we a few days into this ..
I still am ok with the updated site.
I know the cam page will mostly be
"how nice " "WOW" and the like, so {if if I am in a hurry} I can go to whats up and see by the time/date stamp if a topic I want to read has been updated.

It should be nice on the Sunday historic cam page to see "just" stories that relate to local history ETC and not to have to wade past all the hello from... stuff.

By jim in fort wayne,ind on Wednesday, November 3, 2004 - 07:40 pm:

I like it either way what I do not like is the 1000 word posts. does anyone read all of these?

By downstate don on Wednesday, November 3, 2004 - 10:56 pm:

It will be more fun to read about other subjects
besides the pic of the day. There are so many topics to read or write about that takes place in
the Great North that interests others from away.
Good info on places to see, places to eat. All
helpful to those that never have been there for a
visit. Keeps people updated on events that are
happening and no longer live there.

By Patt - Mid - Michigan on Thursday, November 4, 2004 - 10:53 am:

Charlie & gang.. Though I often post and often not about the photo, I have learned & received help when needed, so much from this sight & from the various topics that I am both disappointed & understanding of your dilema.

If it were up to me I would leave it as it was before but I trust in your judgement & defer to your decisions. Disappointing as they may be for me personally.

By Marsha, Genesee/Aura on Thursday, November 4, 2004 - 11:41 am:

I prefer the old cam page. It was more enjoyable for me to read it that way. I agree with Maija that people should use the e-mails for private, back and forth banter. I get ticked at all the nastiness, also. If you don't have anything good to say, keep your mouth shut (or hands in your pocket?).

By Mark in Coulee Dam on Thursday, November 4, 2004 - 11:48 am:

Charlie, Mary and Toivo…thank you all for this great site. It must take a huge amount of work to maintain and moderate the site, especially with the ever-increasing number of inappropriate posts. Though I seldom post, as a former yooper, I have enjoyed the site almost on a daily basis for a couple of years.

So far I do miss the old format, though it was obviously getting out of hand. I most enjoyed learning more about both historic parts of the UP and new and interesting places to visit. Many of the tangential topics took on a life of their own, like what “boat” might be passing by or working in the area. Some of the “help” requests are often of interest too. Such diversions have brought me into contact with acquaintances from more than 30 years ago, which has been great.

What I don’t miss are the personal attacks, political and other self-motivated posts, and the messages of a personal nature that would be best left to personal e-mails….(they still have “e-mail groups” for multiple mailings don’t they :^) ? I know all of that is usually in good fun, but it leaves most of us on the outside, and time is a consideration to weed through to get to the info-type stuff.

Bottom line…Great Job…Many Thanks….where else can we find such a great site….beautiful photo albums…all for free….we’ll go with whatever format is most appropriate, and register if necessary. You guys are GREAT, and it will still remain my first “look” of the day (and many times my only place visited). Thank you!

By A real Finn Mom on Thursday, November 4, 2004 - 01:15 pm:

You people would complain if you were hung with a new rope.

By gee whiz on Thursday, November 4, 2004 - 03:33 pm:

Charlie asked for opinions.

By Jeffrey in Houston on Thursday, November 4, 2004 - 05:15 pm:

Yep, seems it never fails that all good things must end. Like your favorite hole-in-the-wall restaurant or secluded beach that gets discovered by everyone else. Inevitably it loses its charm. I've come to accept this as a sad part of life; we're victims of our own success.

But I do appreciate the ride. Thank you.

By Julie S., Kiel, WI on Thursday, November 4, 2004 - 05:20 pm:

The best thing that I found for just "chit chat" is an instant messenger. I use MSN's but have used Yahoo's. I just love it and it is a great way to keep in touch without the long distant calls. Anyone interested in MSN just e-mail me and I will send you the info.

By So Thankful. on Thursday, November 4, 2004 - 07:14 pm:

Yes, Jeffrey, I agree. Although, the good thing that came to an end, was the original Cam Notes page & format, where people only posted notes on the pic of the day. Then the site got discovered by people craving attention and posting nonsense & inside jokes that didn't apply. People think the 'old' format of chit chat was the original, but it wasn't. I am very, very glad, the cam notes page has returned to its original form & integrity, and a separate page for 'What's UP' chit chat created. The good news is, most of the attention seekers & inside jokes seem to have left. It isn't as much fun to post when it doesn't generate as much attention on the main page. The ones who do leave, are the 'fickle fans', not the true devotees of UP history & beauty.

By thankful also on Thursday, November 4, 2004 - 07:56 pm:

Well said thankful!!!

By elsa, Kearsarge on Friday, November 5, 2004 - 12:01 am:

TO: Thankful and Thankful Also, it's been a Thank-
less job for those who are running the show. Show
some respect!!

By wassa KeweenawKid on Friday, November 5, 2004 - 12:39 am:

So thankful

I also thought you were right on and showing respect to the site management too. Like you I think The main page is more like the good 'ol days now annd people can ramble here {best of both worlds}..I think the true blue Pasty die hards will remain and the attention getters will dwindle..
I bleed copper so I will be here regardless.

By Karen... on Friday, November 5, 2004 - 06:04 am:

I,for one, enjoyed the site the way it used to be. Last June, I tuned in to learn so much about the UP (where to visit, where to pick berries, the bridge, etc.). Now, it's just way too much trouble to chase the conversation and the tone of the conversations over the last four/five months have been anything but nice. It was informative to here from California, Nevada, Texas, Florida,and know we all had one common thread; however, folks are selfish and want to dominate the whole conversation...when it's a public website. It's ashame some have to ruin it for others. Peace to all of you and thank you Pastycam for the opportunity to enjoy the UP from afar.

By Homesick Copper Country Kid on Friday, November 5, 2004 - 09:18 am:

The charm of the way this site originally was it what kept all of us displaced Yoopers checking in each day to get a slice of home. In the past while as it evolved into something else, it was no longer special, but more like any other place on the net. I agree that people could discuss back and forth by e-mail if they have private conversations. That never seemed to be what was envisioned for pasty.com and why it was such a breath of fresh air to all of us. A little diversion into other subjects was just fine until it got so carried away. Some of us have visited this site every day since the beginning and its focus, beauty and non-controversial nature is why we stayed. Thanks to all who make this place so special and unique. We are truly fortunate.

By SarahK, FL troll on Friday, November 5, 2004 - 10:12 am:

It's getting to be so much to read in little time. Just like everything else...I like the way it was about a year ago, but we can't go back in time, things always change.

By Country Girl in the LP on Friday, November 5, 2004 - 01:04 pm:

A wonderful site with a homey feel -comments that moderately digress (where to find those waterfalls? How old is that building? When's the best time to avoid blackflies? Are you related to so-and-so?) seemed to me to add to the charm and attraction. To discuss ISSUES a separate page is better. Even there the problem seems to have been that a few don't know the difference between discussing and putting down others with rude and vicious language. I also hesitate to post personal info publicly due to the ever increasing difficulty of protecting privacy. In the long run you hard working and devoted folks who run Pasty.com should make the decision that is workable for you. You are appreciated.

By ruth in the up on Friday, November 5, 2004 - 02:10 pm:

I seldom post. I have been reading the comments from the last few days, and am still chuckling about the "some people would complain if they were hung with a new rope" My Mother used to say that half a century ago, what a blast from the past, I can see her standing at the stove (and talking to me) as she did so! Someone who doesn't understand UP humor jumped right on the gal who posted that, not understanding, which added to my enjoyment! Lots of wannabes out there who need to thicken their skins if they think they'll move here and love it. I liked the old format better, but would suggest, along with the early bird, some way of humorously nailing the crab of the day! And I think registration is a viable way to go, without posting the email addresses, as we all agree there is way too much spam!

Mary says: Too funny Ruth....humorously nailing the crab of the day! What do you think, Charlie? :->

By Margaret, Amarillo TX on Friday, November 5, 2004 - 06:08 pm:

To Ruth in the UP and Mary too: I really like that crab of the day idea. Sometimes people don't get recognized for what they really are!

By anita, lp on Friday, November 5, 2004 - 06:40 pm:

ditto on the crab of the day. I also agree with Homesick

By Suzy/Mn on Friday, November 5, 2004 - 10:37 pm:

Hi Charlie and Mary,

I liked the old format better as I don't really have time to read two or more! I also miss the early bird on the cam notes. That was such a great way to get the discussion off the ground. It's too bad a few selfish people used it to achieve what could have been done privately on e-mail. The connection with the photos and historical significance is what we are all after, a way to stay in touch when we can't be there. Thanks for taking us there! Keep up the good work, but not too many changes. Thanks! Suzy/Mn

By FRNash/PHX, AZ on Saturday, November 6, 2004 - 09:17 am:

I have to disagree with the awarding of the early bird. It just encourages a sometimes lengthy stream of meaningless, deliberately short, hastily constructed nearly simultaneous content-free postings made solely in attempt to snag that

Early Bird

... which serve as little more than clutter. The early bird award surely isn't automated, is it? If not then that's also just one more little manual chore for our overworked hosts.

By Agree on Saturday, November 6, 2004 - 11:05 am:

FR Nash/ Phx,Az. I wholly agree with you , just a bunch of clutter, nuf said.

By Movie Star on Saturday, November 6, 2004 - 11:07 am:

You typed 67 words to complain about a tiny graphic.

By Movie Star on Saturday, November 6, 2004 - 11:11 am:

I think Pasty should charge 19.99/mo for everyone to post here. Usually people will complain about anything and everything if they are paying......so whats your excuse?

By free thought on Saturday, November 6, 2004 - 12:30 pm:

Hmm ..crab of the day award sounds like a neat idea..

By Rose on Saturday, November 6, 2004 - 12:32 pm:

I think the " Crab of the Day" award would only fuel the fire. But it is very very funny. Wish we could do that in the office too. ( Or maybe we kind of do. LOL )

By FRNash/PHX, AZ on Saturday, November 6, 2004 - 12:55 pm:

Movie Star:
"You typed 67 words to complain about a tiny graphic."
No, I wasn't complaining about the graphic, just about the ....sometimes lengthy stream of meaningless, deliberately short, hastily constructed nearly simultaneous content-free postings that it encourages!

"I think Pasty should charge 19.99/mo for everyone to post here."
Say now there's a clever concept, although the price point might have to be reduced. A reduced price point would work much as was demonstrated by JFK's, Ronald Reagan's and GWB's reduced tax rates, which increase tax revenue!

By wolverines! on Saturday, November 6, 2004 - 01:04 pm:

movie star said,
"Usually people will complain about anything and everything if they are paying......"
I am not sure if you ment that or
if they are NOT paying . 19.99 a month would eliminate a lot of attempted "early birds" however for sure Eh.

By {B in gb } ..no .. seriously! not! on Saturday, November 6, 2004 - 01:16 pm:

Hey how about charging $1.99 a day for the early bird graphic to be placed by your post.Pay pasty .com by credit card and they place it if you are first.crabby could be number two post.

By greg on Sunday, November 7, 2004 - 10:28 am:

With the new "What's Up" page(s), some were worried about the personal chit-chat? Guess we were lucky back when Charlie and crew cut short the religious posts, huh?

By Clyde...L'Anse on Sunday, November 7, 2004 - 06:41 pm:

Hi Gang, I haven't posted here in a long time but I'd like to add my 2 cents if I may. First let me say that I really don't care for this new discussion board format but I do understand why the change was made.

Here is my solution to get back to posting messages on the picture of the day instead of multiple discussion board topics.

1. In order to post messages on the picture of the day discussion board, people must become registered members and abide by rules and policies stated in some type of written forum guideline.

2. If the discussion board guideline rules are abused or broken, the forum monitors (Charlie, Mary, Toivo...) would then have the right to permenently delete those registed members from a secure data base created when they first registered.

Here is an example of guideline rules from a different discussion forum.

I'm sure this was an idea that was floated around by Charlie and the pasty gang. Personally, I think the idea of a secured registration would work. I know it has for other discussion board sites.

By Chris K, IL on Monday, November 8, 2004 - 10:30 am:

I would just like to go on record and say that the pasties we ordered (along with Dan's calendar) are the best we ever ate.

Thanks, guys. Keep up the good work.


By . on Monday, November 8, 2004 - 04:00 pm:

Part of what makes Pasty.Cam so great is that one can just chime in, post once or twice and keep silent again, enjoying just the pix. While this may be annoying, since some choose to leave rather disturbing posts, it's also part of the charme, with folks suddenly piping up because they've found an old, long lost friend posting. Registration, IMHO, would isolate Pasty.Cam from such events.
Appreciative (is there such a word?) of your trouble and work,

By Frank,,,,Milw...... on Tuesday, November 9, 2004 - 09:50 am:

Seems some people want to know what Charlie wants this site to be. A past post from Charlie. " This is a site about the beauty, history, and culture of Michigans Upper Peninsula. Daily contact with the U.P. is the purpose of this wonderful site".I personally, would like to keep it that way..

By Grimace on Wednesday, November 10, 2004 - 09:43 pm:

Fractured, Pasty net
Like all of America,a reflection of the best !
spider cracks divide our thoughts ,can we ever be one again?

Powered by:  
Join Today!
Each day the Pasty Cam has 2 areas to post messages: 
  • Cam Notes - comments related to today's picture and discussion
  • What'sUP - other topics, conversation and announcements
  • *** Please use the appropriate forum ***
    Here's a list of messages posted in the past 24 hours
    See our guest photo gallery for more great views from the U.P.

    Add a Message

    A user/password combination is now required to post messages to Cam Notes. Registration is free. Click here to register or maintain your I.D.

    Home | Pasty Cam | Contest | Order Now | Bridge Cam | Past-E-Mail | GP Hall of Fame | Making Pasties | Questions