Dec 16-01

Past-E-Mail: Cam Notes - 2001: December: Dec 16-01
Pine Street Apostolic Lutheran Church, 1926    ...scroll down to share comments
photo from Paul Taylor

Charlie at Pasty Central on Sunday, December 16, 2001 - 10:09 am:

Our previous shoebox memory of these steps in 1920 give us a look at the changing styles in the Copper Country. If you compare the earlier one, it appears to be the same Sunday School teacher - a little younger and heavier - but there are noticeable differences in the hats. Here we see the flatter brims in 1920 (left) gave way to a more curved look:

I'd be interested to hear if there's anyone you recognize in this photo, and if you happen to have any later years in an old shoebox in your closet.
By Martha K., Pinckney, MI on Sunday, December 16, 2001 - 04:13 pm:

Looks like they still hadn't invented the word "cheese" yet.

By Alicia, Michigan on Sunday, December 16, 2001 - 07:44 pm:

I think they were saying cheese but it came out
I probably have family here but it is hard to pick out any familar faces.Nice to see a bit of
Finnish heritage posted.
Alicia Koski Marshall

By Nancy Nelson, WI on Sunday, December 16, 2001 - 07:51 pm:

A group of boys on the right side of the picture look as though they are up to something, but the rest look as though they had just attended a Lutheran potluck dinner:creamed fish, creamed potatoes, creamed turnips, and tapioca for dessert!

By Charlie Hopper (Admin) on Wednesday, August 11, 2004 - 05:57 am:

There was a technical glitch which truncated this page, and someone found the previous text on their computer. Unfortunately the email addresses referenced in some of the posts were lost in the process.

Thanks to the anonymous individual who reconstructed this conversation:

By DE on Sunday, December 16, 2001 - 08:15 pm:
Where and when did the buns come into style for the Apostolic Lutheran women? To this day, there is a "sect" of the Apostolic church that basically mandates the women wear buns in their hair at all times. Did that come along after the 20's? Or are the "Pine Streeters" not mandated to wear that hair style?

By MD on Sunday, December 16, 2001 - 11:16 pm:
I was wondering the same thing about the
hair. The girls all seem to have bobs. When
did the long hair come in to practice?

By M on Monday, December 17, 2001 - 12:07 pm:
A better question is why do they mandate it?

It is noteworthy that there are no such "rules" governing the men's hairstyles...
BTW-I am male.


By M on Tuesday, December 18, 2001 - 04:46 am:
ok, i'll bite. Why do they lose their freedom when they marry?

By K on Tuesday, December 18, 2001 - 12:13 pm:
The "Old Apostolic Luthern" women are required to keep their hair long...the "Finnish Apostolic Lutherns" aren't required to keep it long. (I think this picture is taken on the stairs of the Finnish Apostolic Luthern church). The chuch split into two somewhere around 1900...I don't know the exact date.

By 4th Generation Yooper Lutheran Finn on Tuesday, December 18, 2001 - 12:23 pm:
FYI - No buns required, no hairstyles "mandated".

By former Yooper, still Lutheran Finn on Tuesday, December 18, 2001 - 02:22 pm:
This picture is on the Finnish Apostolic Church stairs before the lobby was added. The church split happened in 1888 from what I understand. So this picture was taken well after that date. Fun to see faces that look so familiar.

By Me on Tuesday, December 18, 2001 - 07:37 pm:
Then how come almost every Apostolic woman has a bun? If it's not mandated, is it an internal fashion statement? I was told a few years ago, that "only her husband is allowed to see her crowning glory" and that is why they do the buns.

By Eliminating myths on Wednesday, December 19, 2001 - 04:51 pm:
Some do, but the majority of Apostolics don't. If you believe they all wear buns you are mistaken. There are some churches where they are the "norm", but overall it is not.

By FYI on Thursday, December 20, 2001 - 06:25 am:
Original OLD APOSTOLIC CHURCH women wear buns. OLD APOSTOLIC CHURCH is the new one at the end of Elevation St. in Hancock. Pine Street which is the split from THE OLD APOSTOLIC CHURCH do not. See The Book of Church Denominations, it will tell you all about the split in the Apostolic Church.

By S on Friday, December 21, 2001 - 02:24 am:
As you notice, as with all religious discussions, no matter
how petty.... if they are about religion,
there is a slight tension and a hint of anger
in the responses Why is that anyway... I guess its
true.. no war was ever won in the name of religion.

By Paull E.Homola, Michigan on Friday, December 21, 2001 - 10:34 am:
How's everyone doing?
Merry Christmas & a Happy New Year!

By Me on Friday, December 21, 2001 - 10:50 pm:
Sorry, but I don't detect tension or anger. Simply questions asked, and answers given.

Happy Holidays!

By Karen P., Alaska-Hawaii on Sunday, December 23, 2001 - 12:24 pm:
I agree with the person who said, "fun to see faces that look so familiar." My grandma and family went to that church and grandma had a bun, I think only because it was a convenient way to wear her hair.

By Christopher Johnson;Mt. on Wednesday, March 6, 2002 - 03:54 am:
Gods Peace to all my Brethren and Sisters in our Faith to our Lord Jesus Christ.I am not sure of which church this is but I am in need of getting ahold of Duanne Sarkkinen Of Battle Ground, Washington. It is my belief and firm hope that he gets in-touch with me as soon as possible.In the name of our Lord Christ I Pray if any of you know of him,tell him that I am trying to reach him.May all of you be in our Lords graces and keep you and guide you all safely from our adversary.

By steph, NJ on Monday, May 27, 2002 - 07:46 pm:
Christopher Johnson,
Gods Peace
i know duanne sarkkinen, if you would like to contact him please email me i believe we have his telephone number, let me know if you still need to contact him

By Randy Kangas on Monday, June 24, 2002 - 11:42 am:
My mother was born in Hancock in 1925 and some of her family may be in the large photo. Her maiden name was Eleanor Amanda Somero and was the daughter of Fredrick and Arline Somero. They later moved to New Hampshire

By Mrs N in MN on Saturday, November 9, 2002 - 12:25 am:
It is my understanding that if you have time to be on the internet, you have time to be doing some serious reading in the bible!!??

By me on Saturday, November 9, 2002 - 10:38 am:
Hmmm....practice what you preach!

By TD, Canada on Sunday, November 10, 2002 - 02:35 pm:
I would like to know some information about this religion. I do not know much about it, but it is defenitely something that interests me. I would like to know what are some of the rules practised in this religion, besides women keeping their hair long not being allowed to wear make-up, etc.

By Mrs N in MN on Sunday, November 10, 2002 - 09:55 pm:
Isn't it true that you that follow the religion of Old Apostolic should not have the internet? I do practice what I preach, and I am from "the world".

By anon on Friday, November 15, 2002 - 10:30 pm:
TD, please leave your email. I will provide you with plenty of info. I was in the church for a long time, and the Lord led me out once I began to read for myself what was in the Bible....

By wwjd on Sunday, December 8, 2002 - 04:15 pm:
I have a brother who has joined the Pine Street Apostolic church. Could you e-mail me what you know about that particular religion, and what they use to entice people into that church. I have heard that they do not have ordained ministers, is this correct?

By Sharon on Thursday, January 2, 2003 - 09:46 am:
RE: The difference in the two churches.... was mentioned above that one is the true faith.... It really isn't the church its whats abiding in the heart of a believer, knowing and truely beliving that Christ's work on the cross alone is what saves us! He paid it all! I have been going to a apostolic church thru childhood and it depends some churchs are into laws and traditions... I grew up sadly ... with alot of focusing on the outside look and appearance thinking that being a christian is based on that! There was no joy and happiness, there wasn't a true relationship with my Jesus! Gods Peace to all!

By Shawn on Wednesday, January 15, 2003 - 12:59 pm:
God's peace be with you all. I'am a life long member of the Old Apostolic Luthern church. It sure is nice to see our brother's and sister's posting notes to the best of their ability to enlighten others as to the ways of our religion. I myself am a very poor christian and have very poor understanding of our faith. All I can do is keep striving forward believing that God will guide me. I'am fully aware of the dangers of the internet and all the temptations that are here on the net. But I'am a father of school children as well and also understand the usefullness of the internet. There are always two sides of every thing. As we manuever through the internet we must remain strong and resist those evil temptations. I hope to see more postings from you all. And hopefully we can stop the bickering. Bye and God's peace be with you all.

By pr on Tuesday, January 28, 2003 - 12:38 am:
Concerning the bun's. There is no rule concerning hair, or when a woman must wear her hair in a bun. We are taught that "But if a woman have long hair it is a glory to her, for her hair is given her for a covering" ( 1 Cor 11:15 ). And as was mentioned the bun is a convenient way to wear long hair. These teachings are not rules that one must follow. We try to be obedient to what we have been taught for the love of Christ and for the pain and suffering he has done for for my sins. If one has the true and right kind of love in one's heart, they wouldn't want to do anything that would make our Savior suffer any more than he has when he suffered on the cross.

By Shelly WA on Tuesday, March 4, 2003 - 06:37 pm:
I'm a christian and live in the Battleground, Wa area. There are a lot of "Old Apostolic Lutherns in are area.

I believe and have accepted Jesus Christ as my personal savior. I do wish with all my heart that the group of Apostolic christians would be more friendly with others. I come from a baptist background, and do believe we believe in the same gospel.

I know as a christian and to be more "Christ Like" we are to love one another. I can hardly ever get a smile or glimce from any of the women in my area. With the love of God and his hope, peace, love and joy we should be radiant around others saved or not saved, this is what Jesus would do if here were here walking in Battleground. We are to set a example to others, by letting the Holy Spirit work in our lives and to be able to let others see the spirit in us.

I do like the fact that they are a really close knitt family.

My husband and I and our 3 kids have always been curious to try a service, but feel we would be stared at or judged.

I would like to know more about your beliefs, laws of your church, buns,skirts, etc. There is only one way to the father and that is through Jesus Christ. He died on the Cross for our sins, so we could have a relationship with God.

I know God loves me for me and not my outside apperances, or the laws of the church. If I remember right Jesus came to free us from a lot of the old testamant laws. He knows my heart.

I love Jesus....

By Happy in the Lord on Wednesday, March 12, 2003 - 10:53 pm:
Shelley, I'm so glad you have the freedom in Christ. If you or any one is searching for the "right" church to go to, Just pray to your Heavenly Father to guide you to the church that He wants you to attend and believe in Him for the answer. I did that years ago and He lead me. I praise God to this day that now I truly have freedom in Christ-the peace only He could give. I agree, they sure don't smile much!

By Pattyanne, California on Monday, March 17, 2003 - 12:51 am:
What do the Apostolic Lutherans believe is the plan of salvation? Are they filled with the Holy Ghost and do they speak in tongues as God gives the utterance? Are you Baptized in Jesus Name or in the titles? Do they live a Holy Life?

By still anon on Wednesday, April 2, 2003 - 03:31 am:
Dear Shelly WA,
You are wrong about only one thing. You do not believe in the same gospel. You believe in Christ, they believe in their church. I am also from Battle Ground, and I am a former member of the OALC. The love of Christ is one thing that you have, and the freedom to know the truth. I hope God can use you as a witness to those around you who are bound in rules and regulations, and not taught to love others.
I love Jesus, too....

By anon on Wednesday, April 2, 2003 - 03:52 am:
I tried to send you an email but it was returned. Don't know if you have a new address or what...

By unworthy OALC member on Friday, April 4, 2003 - 10:00 pm:
Question for anon...

Why did you leave the one and true saving faith, the Old Apostolic Lutheran Church? Was it because of the devil preaching to you that you can have allowances of sins and still believe you are a child of god (dead faith)? Or perhaps you have become convinced that the devil of self-righteousness has pumped you up so high that no other Christian is better than you. The devil has now made you blaspheme true Christianity, who are humble, lowly and sin-feeling people. How does it go for you now, when the devil takes any feeling of sinfulness away and quickly replaces it with personal pride, honor, and self-righteousness, even more sins?

How will it go for you, anon, in those last days and especially on Judgment Day, when you are sitting before The Father Almighty, the son and precious savior Jesus Christ, and the book of life is opened, and in which your name was previously written, and IS NOT CALLED among the saved people? Those who have previously tasted of this pure and blessed Christianity, where SIN IS SPOKEN TO BE SIN, and have not eaten of the bread of life and drank of the precious reconciling blood as a confirmation of their faith will have much to answer for on that great day of Judgment, even more to answer for than the people of the world.

Be aware of this precious time of grace, which is coming to an end.

Be aware of other dead faith churches which may also have the name bearing "Apostolic Lutheran." Any other church besides the Old Apostolic Lutheran is an abomination before God, because they hold church services very similar to ours, but they have organs playing worldly music and their preachers read from prepared texts that do not reveal anything of the true word of God but only reveal what the intellect of man wants to think and believe is God's word.

Also, in speaking of these matters, I am not a good example at all. A very poor one at that. The devil is so cunning and powerful and I am so faulty and lacking that I have fallen into sins of all kinds. But it is through that great grace, which has to be given in small crumbs that fall from the master's table, that one is able to believe...that all sins that one has committed (and everyone does commit sins whether you believe it or not) are washed away in his most precious reconciling blood, never to be remembered again, and those sins which have been forgiven in the truth are not visible even to God's eyes anymore. Believe and be free... to ignite your spark of faith which you have kindled in this life, in that step from time into eternity, into a large flame to propel you to the other side of the river of Jordan, where the true longing of every Christian is, while the others who have blasphemed, ridiculed, and tormented the true and living Christianity will only sit on the river's edge and try to swim across only to drown in their own unfortunate condition.

Take heed of this time of grace, dear friends...

By unworthy OALC member on Friday, April 4, 2003 - 11:59 pm:
I would like to add this comment to the message I posted above:

It is my sincere and utmost hope that no person would be harmed body or soul by the message I typed above. I realize it may have been too harsh, but there needs to be said of dogs barking at the enemy, as Lars Levi Laestadius speaks of. If I have said anything wrong pertaining to the OALC's doctrine, I would like to know and please let me know by posting a message to this site, because it would be a heavy matter if I said something wrong about the true and saving doctrine. I have love for everyone, and I certainly wouldn't want any soul to be clasped in the hands of the enemy of true Christianity. May God bless.

By anon on Saturday, April 5, 2003 - 08:21 pm:
Dear unworthy,
I dearly wish for you to know the Savior, who sets us free. I notice you only mentioned Christ once in your message, although the power of Satan was mentioned multiple times. I do not believe we are at liberty to sin, but it is the sin of idolatry to teach that any church or doctrine is the road to heaven when Jesus says, "I am the way, the truth and the life. There is no other way to the Father except through me." The Bible is a book, written in plain English to mold and guide our lives. It is a tragedy that there are so many people convinced they are the only ones on the path of righteousness (and, might I add, judging whether or not others are written in the Book of Life) who actually have no clue what is written in the Bible. Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved actually does not mean have faith in the preachers and you will be saved. There are harsh warnings in the Bible about trusting in man. Please be extremely cautious in standing in for the position of God and spiritual pride that seeks to exalt ourselves and condemn others. You have no idea what is taught at these churches you call dead faith, and you have no right to pass judgment on them. Christ died so the world could live, and there are people who love the Lord all over the world. Jesus loves all people, and commands us to resist the enemy and he will flee from them. Christianity is not the same as Christ, and your church is not the gate to the sheepfold. Jesus is, and if you are unable to believe that his sacrifice on the cross was enough to save, and that we in addition need some wisdom that is unavailable through the word of God but is only found in certain men, then you need to test your faith in light of the true word of God, which is the Holy Bible alone. (And if you are going to condemn churches with instruments, it might do you well to read Psalm 150.)
Jesus loves you, he loves all of the world. He loves the Iraqi people, even Saddam Hussein. Even though there are many people who are not walking within His will, He came for a message of love and forgiveness, and I love Him with all my heart. I pray to Him, I seek His face and He ministers to me. I am His friend, and I would be careful about condemning His friend to hell. You guys are quick to pooh-pooh other's relationship with God, however the Bible is full of examples of how God walks with those who walk with Him. Not an outward walk based on appearances and adherence to regulations and traditions, but an inward searching of the heart. He says,"you will seek me and find me if you seek me with all your heart." This is for all people.
I know you will think I am self-righteous because I know what is in the Bible. I would like you to reread your posting and note that you called me a servant of Satan, called my church dead faith, and stated that my name is not written in the book of Life. Pretty bold.
I love Jesus and can't wait until He comes back for me!

By Shelly WA on Monday, April 7, 2003 - 01:27 am:
Thank you anon.

I attend a church in Battleground which welcomes anyone. Thank you for your posting, and responding to the unworthy OALC posting above.

I can not even belive what I just read from unworthy OALC member. How sad, my heart goes out to all of the members who must feel bound in bondage to rules and regulations, and has no joy in the Lord. Wow, it is interesting what other "churches" do and believe. I really don't even like saying what I am as far as a church. I just respond " I believe in Jesus Christ, I have accepted him as my personal savior,I believed he died on the cross and rose again 3 days later for my sins. YES, we all sin, but that is why Jesus came to forgive us so we can have a relationship with God.

There are a lot of "Wordly" things I disagree with or do not engage in, but Jesus would like us all to not hide and be judgemental in this world but to go out and "Love one anohter" and save people. We are accountable for lost souls here on earth as well as believing ourselfs.

There are so many evil things that are happening but in all evil God does create good. There are situations that occur to bring people to the father good or bad. The Devil can only capture the ones who are not walking with the Lord. If you are doing God's will and truly trying to be christ like here in the world, the devil has no gain on you. Rebuke......

Jesus teaches LOVE, it's all about LOVE. I will be praying for the people who don't have that personal relationship with Jesus. I have a friend who is Catholic, same thing It's all about rules of the church. It is so sad, there is no joy or excitment. I never here her talk about prayer, scripture anything. They really don't even know many verses in the bible.

If you have asked Jesus Christ into your heart and confessed you are a sinner, and have a personal relationship with him, YOUR NAME IS IN THE BOOK OF LIFE, AND IT CAN NOT BE ERASED. You will know ETERNITY.

Happy Easter, He is Risen and Alive!!!!

By anon on Monday, April 7, 2003 - 02:52 am:
Dear Shelly,
I would love to talk to you.
For obvious reasons I can't post my name and email- I am considered evil. I am glad you got a glimpse of what actually is taught there.
We both live in Battle Ground..
I love the Lord and am thankful for His work in my life!

By curious in SD on Tuesday, April 8, 2003 - 11:33 am:
I have many questions about the religion and beliefs. Hopefully some of you can answer them for me. I want to know why, if we are all Christians, do you only give the handshake and God's Peace to people in your church? What is the reasoning for having so many children when it costs so much to support them. I know God will provide us all with what we need if we just believe. How do you explain receiving governmental assistance programs? I don't mean this email as harmful to anyone. I am just trying to understand a religion that is new to me. Thanks to anyone who responds and God's love to you all.

By shel, WA on Tuesday, April 8, 2003 - 10:12 pm:
Very interested in your church and have wondered about it for a long time. I have attended once and am planning on coming again. I have so many questions, but am very shy. I know some Apostolic's and am very impressed with how kind and loving most of them seem to be. I would love to give someone my e-mail address to someone who would like to take some time to answer some of my questions. I live in Yacolt and am surrounded by this religion and am really wanting to know more.

By Shelly, WA on Tuesday, April 8, 2003 - 11:06 pm:
Dear Shel,WA (in Yacolt)

I would suggest trying Maple Grove Chruch. Excellent chruch. New Height or Crossroads.
I would not recomened the Old Apostolic Luthern Chruch. Just my thoughts after reading some of the postings.

No matter where you may go, it really does not matter, what matters is if you are willing to accept Jesus Christ into your heart, confess that you are a sinner and have a personal relationship with him. It does not matter if you are black, yellow or white, tall or short, short or long hair, rich or poor, makeup or none. Nothing can take you away from christ if you believe in him.

Shelly WA.

Good luck

By Shelly, WA on Wednesday, April 9, 2003 - 12:38 am:
Dear Anon,

May I ask if you are Male or fe-male? I really do not like giving out my e-mail as well. What church do you attend? What Apostolic church were you from? Yacolt area?


By anon on Wednesday, April 9, 2003 - 01:48 am:
Dear Shelly,
I am sorry, I assumed you knew I am female. I am also married with kids. Used to go to the church in Brush Prairie, also the one on Lewisville Hwy.
I will get an email I can put up.
PS-Shel,wa--run as fast as you can! Find a healthy, Bible-based church.

By anon on Wednesday, April 9, 2003 - 03:39 am:
Here is my e-mail.

By shel.wa on Thursday, April 10, 2003 - 12:40 am:
Thank you but I am still interested.

By Shelly, WA on Thursday, April 10, 2003 - 01:23 am:
Hi Anon,

You can e-mail me as well.

I'm married with 3 children. How many kids do you have? If you want you can respond here or e-mail me, I'm interested in what church you attend now?
I also have more questions about the OALC.


By unworthy OALC member on Thursday, April 10, 2003 - 02:22 am:
There is a difference, to all you preciously awakened souls, between dead and living faith. I hope to explain this here, although I feel myself to be very unworthy and lacking to explain how God has extended such a beautiful gift of grace to me, such a wretched and sinful person as I.

Dead faith, as the devil of self-righteousness commands, is incumbent upon each member living a "sinless" life, that is, holding yourself to be such a great and honorable Christian that you cannot commit any sin at all, that it would destroy your pride and honor, both of which are sins as well.

Living faith, on the other hand, is faith in which a Christian feels themselves to be a totally unworthy, broken-hearted, wretched sinner and that he/she of themselves have absolutely nothing of themselves except being a pile of sin, and it is through God's grace and Jesus' holy word and his precious reconciling blood that you are saved, NOTHING of your own works or your own goodness, or your own knowledge.

There is much more to this concept than what I have written, but that is the basic, bare-bones description.

It is the hope that no person would be distracted from the road of life, which is a narrow road that sits directly in the center, between the left side, in which sins of all kinds are abound, and the right side, which is a haven for personal pride, honor and the devil of self-righteousness to affect in one. A humble and lowly Christian must walk on that one and narrow road to heaven, begging for those crumbs of grace from God, the heavenly Father, which are needed to travel through this dark and perilous world in order to obtain that wonderful goal.

Believe and be free...

By Shelly, WA on Thursday, April 10, 2003 - 12:15 pm:
WE all fall short of the glory of God. All, we are all sinners. Even the pope, Billy Graham all christians are sinners. There is no Pride, but the joy of the Lord in our hearts. That is where Christ takes up residience.

It sounds to me, that most of you are deppresed and bound to guilt and shame. IT is sad. In order to feel the holy spirit in your heart, you have to ASK him IN besides just believing. John 3:16, John 14:6.

So many are caught up in rules and regulations and works. It clearly states in the bible this is not the way to the father.

Yes, his forgivness of are sins and his grace are for all who ask in his name, and they are forgiven. Gone. No need to dwell on the past. We all make mistakes.

My goal is to reach out and spread the gospel for lost souls, so that they can know our father in heaven and not be left behind when he returns.

We want everyone, every race that wants to accept Jesus Christ to have Eternity, not just a select group of people, It's a FREE GIFT to every human being who accepts it and belives.

My faith is alive, Jesus is in my heart and he is alive. I'm doing his will. I'm trying to do what he asks of all of us christians, spread the word. Love one another.

PUSH.....Pray untill something happens...

Have a great day in Christ!! A happy heart makes you smile.


By Curious on Saturday, April 12, 2003 - 09:09 pm:
Dear unworthy,
Just out of curiousity, if it is not by your own works that you are saved, how do you justify saying that you have to go to your church? Isn't that a work?

By just wondering in washington on Monday, April 21, 2003 - 01:59 am:
I am glad I found your site. In our community we have several families that belong to the old apostolic faith. I need all the information that I can get. Sincerly courious as a cat.

By curious in SD on Monday, April 28, 2003 - 07:00 pm:
I would really like more information about the practices and beliefs of the old apostolic religion. I sent a message earlier wondering how families supported themselves, etc. and did not receive any answers. If anyone is willing to provide me with information about the religion I would appreciate it.

By anon on Tuesday, April 29, 2003 - 02:51 am:
You can email me.

By Polish on Thursday, May 1, 2003 - 01:35 am:
Dear Unworthy,
What do you do? Work wise? Why are you so negative? It is realy sad. You should be encouraging to others to find jesus...dont scare them away.

By Smilin' now on Friday, May 2, 2003 - 02:31 pm:
To those who are cutious about the Old Apostolic Church: It is taught by the Old Apostolic Lutheran Church that the church saves sinners. A church member has the power to forgive sins on behalf of God in the name of Jesus. A believer confesses his or her sins to a fellow believer, and each encourages the other that all sins are forgiven in the name and blood of Jesus. It is believed that this is the ONLY way a sinner can be reconciled with God. I no longer believe that this is the only way to be saved because it puts control of Christ's redemptive work in the hands of man when the bible teaches that Jesus is sovereign, the "Lord of lords and King of kings." (Rev. 17:14) Further, in the gospel of John, when people saw the miracles of Jesus, many believed in his name. "But Jesus would not entrust himself to them, for he new all men. He id not need man's testimony about man, for he knew what was in man." (John 2:24-25.)

By Polish on Friday, May 2, 2003 - 11:07 pm:
to smilin' now,

I agree.

By Sidman,Wy on Saturday, May 3, 2003 - 12:12 pm:
Ok instead of bickering over the straying churches I got a story to tell, it may help you understand how I interphet the Old Apostolic Church. I don't want to harm anyone by the things I say? I say its good to see the Old Apostolic Lurtheran Church members on the internet searching for something... I believe that that church even though I never gone to it. I can tell by the way the live their lifes. Its kinda odd to see poeple that support Rules and Regulations that the church has set, but yet abandon them when its convience for you. From what a friend at work has told me about the Old Apostolic Lurtheran Church is this. Its because of this church that prevents God from his devine plan we both love each other and repect each other but if you are thinking about attending the Old Apostolic Church this is some of the stuff my friend has told me, that they believe that I can not aggree with,

"Must accept the faith to Believe in God, Jesus, Holy Spirit through the Church"
here are some things you won't find Old Apostolic Lurtheran members doing, because to them its impossed on them as a Sin:
Watching TV
Internet (oops so glad some of you are standing against your own doctrine)
Computer Games(including arcade games)
Now I see why most of them are always so rude and self righous, I don't want to judge, but I do think the only thing we can do about this Church is to prey that the members see insight and start reading the bibble on their own.
It is too easy to let someone read you the bibble and be lead actrey by their teachings. Old Apostolic Lurtherans who are on the internet should stand up to the Church confront them as Jesus Did?
Also how can one be shure one church is the right path to heaven?
and why are you so against Prepared Speach? Well think closly if God wanted unprepared Speach wouldn't you known because I doubt the bibble that you so foundly claim you believe in wouldn't be around.

They are taught to be nagative to thoughs that don't believe as they do, and from a friend and the poeple here I truely understand God has shown me the truth about that church, When my friend has a hard time getting along with anyone, She Displayies doubt about anything that threatens her! They are allowed to do stuff with poeple as long as its in the walls of the Church. They don't assiate with other believers because the church things the other churches have gone astrey.
I honestly hope that the Old Apostolistic Church would somehow wake up. I am not convinced it is a good church from how my friends attitude is.
she is rude inconsiderate, and won't compermise.
she wants me to go but I reather learn about it before I went. I'am not saying they are bad or good its just a extreme Church with alot of power in the wrong hands.

For God did say I am the only one that is rightous enough to Judge? and for thoughs that Judge others I will Judge you the same way that you judged them?

Old Apostolic Lurtherans Please! Please I beg you fight the rules and regulations through the Church so I may some day be able to love someone inside that church!! I prey for a revivial of True Spiruatality within that Church!! For how can one have sin free life if they feel they have to abide by the rules of a person that sins? Christainity isn't a religon its a way of life thoughs that live it will be filled with joy and your doubt will be gone, No matter waht you do! Jesus is always there for you no matter what faith religon or believes you may have been too!
but God did not promise a perfect life, or sinless life heree on Earth but yet a trouble free life on Earth!!

By Sidman,wy on Saturday, May 3, 2003 - 08:13 pm:
All you Old Apostolic Lurtheran Church members.
A revivial of True Spirualaty happens by just 1 person saying I Care about you and your Soul,
I Love all you, I wish you well and prey that you will come to terms with the trueth in your life so because God has Sent himself in Flesh to die for us, what can the Church do but Love Each Other and Love him and themselfs for God has paved the way and not the Church! All you Old Apostolic Lurtherans. You can help by spreading the world of their Doctrine for a Hidden doctrine is something decieving like saton. Help the ones that want to leave understand the truth of Christ!
and remember if levi something could say something you can to. Calling the reunification of the Old Apostolic Church into Main Stream Christainity Please prey that the leaders will see there errors and change there ways or be forced down by the congergation that they once controled. Jesus Said you can do all things through me, who Strenthens you?

By Polish on Sunday, May 4, 2003 - 12:40 am:
To Sidman, wy
is there a large group of old apostolic lutherans where you live?

By Sidman,wy on Sunday, May 4, 2003 - 11:02 am:
Well not in my main area but isolated areas are good places for thoughs churchs to form and also mountain and base of mountain towns probly because of suclusion. I want you to prey for the Leaders!, The congergation, its sad when a friend that you care about goes to one of thoughs churches. I can really honestly say that church has been a curse on are friendship and I hope and prey each day her and her family gets out of it. But the more poeple that prey for it the better the chances. I just got to do one thing with her and that was a church thing she never told me about. Well maybe 2 things.
I want you to prey for me in showing her the true way to God through my actions, I want to prey that she will see what a good light I am and that she and her family will be shown some way out.
The Churchs I want you to prey for are the following...
Sheridian,wy: Old Apostolic Church
Big Horn,wy: Old Apostolic Church
Spearfish,sd: Old Apostolic Church

Please if there is anyone that Got out of thoughs churches help me get my friend out I can tell deep down inside she wants to leave! but is affraid because thats all she grown up with. They are taught if they leave the church they will go to hail, because I tried getting her to go to a church I went to but if one old apostolic member would come with us it might help her and her family realize what the church is doing.
So if your interested Please email me. Its sad to find someone you like and care about end up in such a destructive Church.

By Polish on Sunday, May 4, 2003 - 12:28 pm:
To Sidman, Have you tried talking to your pastor? He may have some ideas on how to guide you.

By sidman,wy on Sunday, May 4, 2003 - 01:06 pm:
Well maybe when I pick a church to settle down in I would. Theres just too many of the wrong faith churches around me. Also there is alot of good churches in Gillette,wy and thank god we don't have old apostolic Lutheran church here!

By anon on Monday, May 5, 2003 - 07:17 pm:
Unworthy, where did you go? We miss you.

By Exodus member, Wa. on Monday, May 5, 2003 - 11:08 pm:
As a recovering OALC member, I can assure you that the members of this "church" believe that they are rightous before God, and that they and fellow church members who have "living faith", are going to be the only people in heaven. They feel free to exclude any and all peoples based upon the doctrine of their church.(This exclusion can be based upon heridity, prior church attendance, education level and the most horrifying- Skin color).
This doctrine as was stated previously by Unworthy, has taken the word of God, and twisted it to meet the needs of the church men and women. Ask any member of this group why they belive what they do? They can't answer this question for many reasons. 1. They don't know the word of God themselves- it has been preached in the church that it is actually a sin to pick up your Bible any try to read it for yourself- because God can only really talk to/through the preachers. 2. They have replaced the importance of God's word, with the sermons of a man, Lars Levi Laestadius, who preached in Europe, long ago. The sermons have been compiled into books, or "Postulas", and the majority of any church service is spent reading these sermons and commenting/teaching alongside of the sermon just read. Unworthy mentioned that God does not want man to plan what he is going to say in his sermon, because it is not truly from God when it is planned out. What about the sermon reading of L.L.Laestadius? When an actual Bible verse is read, it is one of the same 20 or so places that all of the preachers choose, when they are called upon to speak. I once asked why the whole Bible is not studied and the reply was that these places are understood best, and it is good to stay with something that is familiar. 3. The OALC church has taught, throughout the many years I was in the church, that seminary/college is a sin, and that when you go to these places, satan takes over your mind, and you will loose your simple belief in the" True and Living Christianity". To apply any advanced knowledge to reading/studying the Bible is a Heresy in the OALC church. Undoubtly, knowledge can be sought for it's own sake, but, this church assumes all knowledge is detrimental. The children are not encouragedd to plan for college, and it is a very small percentage of the population who goes on to any post-high-school training of any sort. Many of the young people don't even finish high-school, as they are eager to begin making money, so they can move out from home and get married. Many of my friends and family from that church, were married before the age of 18. The church encourages early marriges, rather than having the kids sin. 4. When you as a church member begin to evaluate what your personal views on any subject may be, you have to be very careful to/with whom you speak. If you raise any doubts through actions/words, your fellow church members will pounce upon you, bringing the fear of Hell and damnation right to your face. They then, may or may not tell the preachers about their knowledge, and then you will have some real explaining to do! The church belives you can "loose your salvation in a twinkling of an eye", even though God's word teaches that not one beliver can be snatched from his hand. I, personally was told that" I was going straight to Hell!". Of course, I was assured that my condemnation to hell was said in love, and that if I could just put my faith back into the preachers and Elders, everything would be fine again. Fear is used to twist the arms of men, women and children.
In this atmosphere of fear and uncertitany, many abuses take place. From spouse to spouse, parent to child, child to child and from leaders to congregation. The average person in this group deals with at least one source of abuse, some suffer many. I know, I was one of them, and I know so very many more who cry silently for help from somewhere, and because of the exclusiveity in this group, no outside counciling or intervention is allowed the church members. Many of the older people in this church know what is happening, but claim that all answers are found,"in this Living Christianity".
I have read the questions asked by many people interested in knowing more about this OALC church group. I have answered from my personal experience. In a church where no Bible study is allowed because it may cause disagreements and cause splits in the church, the atmosphere is at best suffocating, could it even be leading to spiritual death by those proclaiming to have the" One and only True Christianity?" I cannot make the leap to condem anyone to Hell. Only God knows whom he will save, for he has known us since before time, is he not capable of saving his own?

By Sidman,wy on Tuesday, May 6, 2003 - 10:33 am:
Its a Great blessing to see so many Old Apostolic members coming and telling there story it renews faiths in me that Jesus can still work miricles when all hope seems lost. its a shame that the OALC doesn't have a website or we could really get the message out to thoughs that believe the way they do that just suggests they don't want there members to find sources out about the church and its lies. I am curently have evidence that God speaks to you from the bibble!! He warned me of the cult, before I even thought about it. Its sad for someone you known are compatible with but yet be stoped by this cult.
of course there I don't mean any harm by the things I say if some of you old apostlic stumble on this site be blessed that God is leading you away.

By Polish on Tuesday, May 6, 2003 - 08:12 pm:
Thank you exodus member. Do you have any suggestions on how to approach/let them know they have some one who cares and?

By Sidman,wy on Wednesday, May 7, 2003 - 07:04 am:
I think the best way is confront them with giving and love and they will shurely breakdown, hint the Old Apostilic long for people that care about them. She accused me of wanting to be her Girlfriend because I cared for her, but just because I cared fro her does that mean I like her that way no. Giving is a estial part of Gods love and the life of a Christian, when areas of the bibble can't enter the giving freely command can sometimes help them to experience joy for the first time, but since the church don't let them have outside conciling they won't believe what you say anyways, but encourage them to read the bibble that is probly the best way, don't force the bibble down them there just get mad. But encouragement is the best way, but see that won't read the bibble because they are affriad of thoughs that might condem them. I knewn from proof that they condem them from acting in good fun manor, or otherwise the church would loose control of them. So if you can make 1 of them smile, laugh or be silly your doing the lords will. I have made my friend laugh smile and be silly. That is unsual that thoughs poeple laugh and act silly and alive in public, because they are afriad that members of their church is watching them. In order to get them to listen an ex member of that Church would have to tell them the trueth about it in a civalized fashion in a place that is hidden from prying eyes that could condem them.
In Gods Love Peace Prey and Forgive them
For they that seak the trueth will be awakened.
Prey that God will call out to your friend and that they will see the trueth.
Love Sidman your brother in Christ!

By sidman,wy on Wednesday, May 7, 2003 - 08:36 pm:
wow I must have aswered my own questions!! oh no!! thats bad:(

By Exodus Member on Thursday, May 8, 2003 - 07:07 pm:
Dear Polish:
You are at a disadvantage with this particular group. Lots of prayer needed before you do anything! This "church" only acknowledges the King James Version of the Bible, and many church members do not know their Bibles at all. Many have never read any scripture because the church has taught that it is a sin to think you can pick up the word of God and understand it, without the preachers or Elders explaining it to you. They have taught for years, that anyone who says that they know scripture, is to be avoided, and all "spiritual things" are to never be discussed with such a person. They see a Bible reader/studier, as an evil influence to be fought against. The typical individual will avoid any deep conversation about their beliefs, until there is a group around them, to lend support of the group view. It is like an ant colony. What is better for the group, superceedes the individuals wants, needs and desires.
This group has been refered to as one of the hardest groups to help, both in and out of the church. When people leave,(this happens rarely), they usually avoid All churches because they feel so betrayed by religion. Once you leave this "church", you are dis-owned by the whole community. Admitidly, there will be a short time of members in good standing, trying to win back the "Lost Soul". When the attempts at "re-claiming" the individual are not successful, then the time of shunning begins. The church members will not bend for any reason, to accept you with friendship and Love. You have chosen to leave the one and only true way to salvation, and now you will be punished both on the Earth and they believe, forever in Hell.
The local mental health centers will admit that it is almost impossible to get the church individuals to seek a healthier lifestyle. The person would rather DIE!!! inside and out, than to make any changes to the way they carry out their daily lives. Drugs, Alcohol and other abuses are commonplace. A local AA chapter member confessed that there are many Apostolics in their group, but that they really don't want to change. Drinking is their only release. Really,they feel they are not hurting anyone but themselves, and, also feel that individually they aren't worth much.
Personally, I and my family have had several chances to witness as to the truth of God's written word, and the importance in reading it. The very foundation of our Faith is contained in the pages. We were quickly involved in attacks so severe, we feared for our bodily safety. We were warned to be quiet and that our words were Blasphemy!
The OALC has taken the lies of Satan and embraced them for truth. As humans we cannot compete on this playing field. However- we can pray for the complete and absolute destruction of the church. God wants these souls to be able to choose True life through Jesus Christ! Not an empty immitation that leaves the human empty of all spiritual fruits... Peace,Patience,Joy, Love, Kindness, etc.

By Polish on Thursday, May 8, 2003 - 07:57 pm:
To Exodus member, thank you for all that you have taught all of us here on the oalc. It is so very secretive and the only information I have found is here. It really saddens me to know that the people of this group are so misled and in bondage to the (i hate to call it church) group. I know a few of them and now I understand better. I wish I could do something but I am just a regular person that belives in Jesus and all that he has done. I don't know scripture but I know the important thing and that is that you are saved through the Lord and Jesus and no one has right to pass judgement (except for the one and only that is). I can only pray and ask for guidence in how to be there to help these people.
How long have you been out of the group?

By unworthy OALC member on Thursday, May 8, 2003 - 11:13 pm:
In all lowliness and humility, with absolutely nothing of myself except for that great grace given from God, I must rebuke this person for spreading terrible, horrible, and abominable lies, blasphemy and all-out wickedness about the true and living Christianity, otherwise I could be held accountable for not saying anything. I hope this is my last posting to this site.

The reason I say wickedness is because of their hope of the destruction of our church. This is nothing less than sickening.

I find this interesting that these people find all other faiths and beliefs to be acceptable to them, except one, and that is...The OALC. Why is that? Is it the horrible devil of one's soul, which a true Christian must battle and fight against day after day, that is trying to deceive lost souls and destroy the one holy Christian church?

It accurately represents how much power the devil really has, through that stubborn self-righteousness that can affect in one very fast, believing that they, of themselves, have some kind of merit or good works that God recognizes and, because of that, they are not only good, wholesome people and that they are so perfect in their example that everyone else should look up to them. This is an effect of the enemy of Christianity, and most certainly is a sin, but cannot say that is has been far from me either.

Alcohol is held to be "dragon's poison" in our church. Drugs are an equal if not more wicked weapon the devil uses to destroy a person, naturally as well as spiritually. This is a complete and utter blasphemy of the OALC to say that many of the members are involved in this terrible sin. I'm not saying that there isn't someone who may come to our church that has a problem with the bottle, but it is held to be sin, and it is their responsibility to be released from that before the Angel of Death comes and takes them away.

It was mentioned before that we do not have televisions in our homes nor go out to movie theaters, nor partake in the fleshly desires this world so much does in this day and age. This is true. What kind of home is it where the devil can work through such a medium as the television, with that pornography, violence, and all other garbage that comes over that appliance, and the home still be a Christian home? Is Jesus truly in such a home?

Also, along with the television, the devil has another powerful medium in which to attack man's soul with. This is the internet. Why can't there be just an internet with just the usefulness of it? Because the devil is most certainly not going to be idle in letting any soul go to being a reconciled Child of God. Although it may seem hypocritical that I am on this internet typing, I should not be. The devil most certainly isn't idle with that either. He has tempted me with all these vicious sins against God and I am such a poor example that I have fallen, and need to go and repent of that. I should be visiting with the other precious Christians, speaking of what should matter the most in our hearts.

I certainly do not want to be a judge of any. That is left up to the supreme ruler and Creator of all on Judgment Day. But a true Christian MUST FEEL that he is absolutely nothing spiritually, and that naturally, he has to give all thanks and praise to God, where it all belongs in the first place, not to take ANY honor or pride for himself at all. He must feel that, because of this unworthiness and lacking feeling, he has nailed Jesus Christ to the cross because of his own sins. But there is hope. There is that living water which is flowing here. That precious water of life, which cleanses and renews the soul. This is the forgiveness of sins. When a person can, because he feels his own terrible wickedness, all his sins, faults and shortcomings, he can go to the neck of another true believing Christian and receive that beautiful testimony that all sins are forgiven, in Jesus' holy name, and washed away in his precious reconciling blood, never to be remembered again. You can believe and be free. Oh, how beautiful this is and how a Christian needs this traveling staff so much on this narrow road of life!

Believe and be free!

By anon on Friday, May 9, 2003 - 12:32 am:
So good to have you back. I am sure that everyone can see how logical and humble you are, and how much sense you make with your Biblical arguments. I noticed that you earlier said that we are not saved based on works, but now you are saying that if one dies with unconfessed sin they will not be saved. Also, I see you are still giving much glory to Satan. Thanks for your input.

By Missy in Hong Kong on Friday, May 9, 2003 - 02:01 am:
Dear Unworthy, I hope you are not having problems with picking up the bottle, with what you write, I think maybe you have had a little much to drink and hope you don't have the brown bottle flu in the a.m. For not having t.v., you sure know alot about it. Gosh, I have t.v. and don't get any porno sights, but I can get them on the internet if I would like, and the devil is sitting right here next to me, and I guess I don't have the sickness in my head to look at them. I guess if I do and it is a sin, I will blame myself, not the devil. I do believe there is a devil, and I do believe in God, and I do believe there are temptations out there from the devil, but I believe God also gave us a brain to use!!! I hate to see people always sinning and finding something to blame, use your head!!! Hey, does the name Jim Jones ring a bell? Before you go to church on Sunday, I seriously would look up who he is and if they want you to drink something that is similar to koolaid, I would think twice about it!!! Before I go, just a nice little saying that my husband says to me, he is a former, not at his own will, oalc member. He says wherever the oalc members are going after their life here on earth, he doesn't want to go to the same place. Anon, you are too funny...I love "Unworthy, where are you?, Unworthy, So good to have you back. I love it. Hey, Unworthy, go talk to Ruskel about being on the internet.

By Missy in Hong Kong on Friday, May 9, 2003 - 02:10 am:
One more thing Unworthless, what kind of home is it where the devil can work through such a medium as a perverted, sick human being,molesting children, and the home still be a christian home?

By Shelly on Friday, May 9, 2003 - 02:23 am:
I can't believe what I'm reading. Not only will I be praying for the Mormons and Jehovah Witnesses, now all of the Old Apostolic Lutherns.

Plain and simple

" Cults "

Everyone should feel free to read God's word, that is what "Having a personal relationship means"

"Unworthy" I know why you are on the internet, God works in mysterious ways and is trying to open your heart and help you get out of your cult you are so mixed up in. God is totally present on this web page.

If you were ever aloud to read the Gospel "Matt, Mark, Luke and John you would understand Jesus's "Good News to EVERYONE" He was not here on earth only teaching and hanging out with a select group, he was here for all of us and hung out with some of the worst sinners. Mary the prostitute is one good example. If she were to come to your church would she be accepted? Would you try to help her change her life and accept Christ as her personal savior so she would not be left behind when he returns. Would her horrid life mean anything to you and your congregation. Are you sure "Everyone is Welcome"

Why is it around the world that 90% of Christians are not the mormons, Jehovahs, and OALC. Why is that? Would it be the other way around, if God is trying to have a relationship with us?, wouldn't 90% of christianity be OALChurches, or Mormons etc?. Think about it. Even though there are many different denomanations, there is the one and only true gospel that many follow. Which makes a lot of us ask questions when other organizations share what they believe. It just sends red flags, because they can never back up any of what they believe through scripture. It's usually all man made. To me if that is the case this is pure Idolatry. Someone or Something is taking the place of the direct relationship between the beliver and God.

Trust in the Lord with all your heart, lead not on your own understandings,in all your ways acknowledge him and he will make your paths straight.

By Non-smoker on Friday, May 9, 2003 - 02:37 am:





By anon on Friday, May 9, 2003 - 02:55 am:
You are so right, Missy. In the boundaries of the OALC dwell many child molesters, being protected by the church. All they have to do is ask forgiveness, and they are never held accountable. In fact, parents of molested children are told not to go to the authorities. This perpetuates the cycle. Romans 13 teaches us to be accountable to the law of the land, and if we don't abide by it we will be prosecuted. Cultlike churches consider themselves to be above the law. It is so backwards that someone can molest a child and be protected, yet if you ask questions about the doctrine, you are crucified.

By Born-again, ex-LLL on Friday, May 9, 2003 - 10:52 am:
I just ran across this website and was blown away by the messages posted by how someone could call themselves “unworthy” but yet place themselves in a position as judge (and jury for that matter), and then have the audacity to call others “self-righteous”!

I’d like to put my response into its proper context and introduce myself. I was born into LLL doctrine and spent over 20 years listening to the abuse of ‘living Christianity’ called Apostolic Lutheran, so any assertions I make regarding the beliefs of their church (as absurd as they may sound) can be found in the writings of Laestadius who is believed to have been revealed the “true and living faith” (and everyone else is going to hell). My own testimony is one of not really wanting to “rock the boat”, but when I came to faith in Christ I quickly realized the stark contrast between the gospel that Christ taught and what I was being taught, and as I’ve studied the Bible I’ve realized that the OALC is neither Apostolic nor Lutheran (eg. Luther taught the priesthood of the believer, OALC only believes in the priesthood of the elders).

While there may be some similarities in what Luther and Laestadius taught it should be noted that Luther did not claim to have any special revelation, nor did he claim to have exclusive rights to ‘true and living faith. My testimony is one of realizing that God is creator of the universe and as such he would not hide salvation from 99.99% of the world, but Laestadeans actually believe that they are God’s “chosen people” and as such have misinterpreted many a Bible passage in an ethnocentric manner (i.e. Christians coming from the “four winds” refers to Norway, Sweden, Finland and America – as absurd as that sounds, that’s actually a widely held belief)

Someone mentioned earlier that the preachers in the OALC tend to speak on a few “more well understood” texts. This is true, and when I was born again (in ’97 by the way) and began to seek the scriptures I learned the reason – the passages that they use when taken in context of all of scripture would never say what they are asserting them to say. I know this will come as a shock to many, but LLL actually backs up his wacked out theology (sorry, couldn’t think of a more intelligent sounding description) with Scandinavian mythology of his day!

It’s no wonder that the elders would prohibit studying the Bible without a preacher around – they might actually think for themselves and realize that in the light of all of scripture, their preachers are wrong.

It is also true that LLL teaching discourages getting too much education because thinking (using one’s God-given gift of intelligence) would necessarily cloud one from coming to know the ‘true and living’ Christianity. I’d really like to know where that’s found in scripture to take ones talents and hide them. The result of this teaching is that they’re taught to commit intellectual suicide and listen blindly to the teachings of the ‘older Christians’. While I agree that older Christians have had more experience and as such should be respected, I also know that if something is the truth, then it will also stand up to intellectual scrutiny.

As I began to grow in my walk, with the LORD, I found that the most fundamental flaw was a distortion in my view of the nature of God as a result of 20+ years of being under the teaching of LLL sermons. Much discussion has been made regarding if the OALC is a cult or not. I don’t know that I can answer that, but it certainly is an abuse.

Most of you were probably shocked by reading the responses of “unworthy”, but I was not. My challenge to unworthy is this: put away your Postillas for 3 years and only read the Bible. Also, don’t associate with the preachers or the congregation, for those 3 years. I’d be curious to know if you come up with the same doctrine. While I don’t think you’ll actually take me up on this challenge, I will make the assertion that there is no way you will ever return to the bondage of the OALC once you come to know the truth found in scripture. I fully expect that I’ll hear another rant session from “unworthy”, but one question I’ve got for him is this: if what you’ve been believing all your life were wrong, would you want to know about it? I’d like to think the answer were “yes”, and if it is, see the above-mentioned challenge.

To everyone else, I’d like you to pray for those caught in any religious system (be it Mormonism, JW, Catholic, OALC, etc.) that they’d be released from that bondage and would come to an undistorted view of God that is only found in the Bible.

By just wondering....... on Friday, May 9, 2003 - 11:06 am:
Born again, ex LLL,
You made it clear that you were once a member of the OALC, but then at the end of your post, you said "any religious system (be it Mormonism, JW, Catholic, OALC, etc.)". Were you also a member of those religious systems, that you can lump them all together with the one you belonged to? Just wondering.....

By Born again, ex LLL on Friday, May 9, 2003 - 12:22 pm:
Dear just wondering,

I have never been a member of any other religious system, but the fundamental issue that I was addressing in my post does apply across the board to any exclusive doctrine that focuses on the teaching or infallible revelation of any man other than Jesus Christ. The inevitable result of this becomes a distortion of the true nature of God which is the reason that people who belong to those systems would be compelled to lead people to “the church” rather than leading them to Christ.

By the way, if you question this assertion regarding the OALC, see the response from ‘unworthy’ where he tells ‘anon’ “Why did you leave the one and true saving faith, the Old Apostolic Lutheran Church? Was it because of the devil preaching to you that you can have allowances of sins and still believe you are a child of god (dead faith)?”. Such scare tactics are used by all religious systems to keep people from leaving (i.e. you’ll lose your blessing if you should ever question what is being taught).

In my experience (having talked to people from the religious systems I mentioned as well as several others on airplanes, in bookstores, etc.), I’ve learned that there are parallels to what they believe and what I was taught in that religious systems don’t allow you to question what is revelation (for example: the validity of Joseph Smith is above scrutiny (even though there is no archaeological evidence to corroborate the Book of Mormon which is ultimately a fairy tale – parts of which are plagiarized from the KJV), the JWs believe that they have the “inspired translation” of the Bible even though their translators didn’t know Greek or Hebrew, the Pope is infallible for the Catholics despite inconsistencies between official Catholic doctrine and scripture (check out the official Catholic doctrine of the Assumption of Mary sometime, among several others)).

Rather than dwelling on details though, I’d like to get to the point that I was making in my previous post which is that any doctrine that claims to have a divine revelation that is inconsistent with the Word of God ultimately leads to a system where people are in bondage and as Jesus would have us “know the truth, and the truth will set us free”. The intent of my previous post is not saying that there are not Born-Again believers in those systems (I believe that there are many), but rather is a call for prayer that the Holy Spirit would lead them to find the peace that passes all understanding which only comes through knowing Him and being in His will

By Missy in Hong Kong on Friday, May 9, 2003 - 12:30 pm:
Anon- I was quite young when I married my husband whom is a former, not by choice, OALC member. The reason I brought up child molestation is because that is the first thing that I picked up on when I became a part of my husbands family. Very hush hush. A kind of attitude that, sweep it under the rug, and the child will be just fine. I think this is very sick and from day one that God blessed me with children, I have watched them around this family, like a hawk. I trust no one. I am so thankful to God that he gave me this instinct to know a rat when I see or smell it. I am not good with my bible verses, and am dumb when it comes to the bible,so cannot visit with you on that level, but very much enjoy what you have to say, and can understand what you are saying, unlike others that have only the knowledge of what they have been told. I am so glad that I have found someone I can speak to about this religion. My husband thinks the religion is a joke and does not talk about much, almost like he is trying to hide pain from me, but don't worry my friend, we have many laughs about the religion. I must tell you, my husband attended college, this was probably a terrible no no, because look where he is now!!! I am so thankful to God. I know in my heart that we, together, have made up in the last thirteen years, for all the sadness he held for the years before we were married. God is good.

By Exodus Member on Friday, May 9, 2003 - 07:29 pm:
Dear Unworthy:
I hope that you really are not intending to end your postings to this web site. I am impressed that you are willing to think outside of the box that you were raised in.
If you are not reading God's word, how can you really know who he is? Are you not just believing in a Folk tale? When a story is repeated, it is human nature to embellish or distort. Not always on purpose, but the human memory being what it is, you know where that leads. Which of your teachers/preachers want to take responsibility for leading your whole congregation astray? That is a huge weight to bear- the mis-information of many souls. The rightous God does not hold innocent, anyone who purposely leads anyone astray. That is what is being done in this building.
When you started to date( I assume you are married, since all men over the age of 18 are), did you court your girlfriend by talking to all of your buddies? Did you ask them about her personality? Did they report to you about her laugh, and her hair, her prefrences in food? Did her siblings tell you secrets she would hide in her heart, only to share with the man she truly Loved? No!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! You made sure you were there to touch her hand, look into her eyes, smell her scent, speak with her about her likes and dislikes, her dreams, and visions. If you covet the time alone with a human as much as you did the time you spent with your girlfriend, how can you put God on such a Back-shelf as your church teaches? They teach ignorance of God's written word; no instruction about prayer(either privately or corporately), no Bible studies, no delving into origional manuscripts to understand usages or phraseing, and no independant personal relationship with the Father in Heaven.
If the church building is so important, what happens when/if a building burnt down? Would God be unable to work amoung his people? Can you really limit God so?
As to my refrence previously about drugs and Alcohol, I think you should speak with truth instead of protecting your churches image. I know for a fact that over 50% of the women and men in the OALC have taken or currently are taking anti-depressant medication. I have seen church members bring 1 gallon size zip-Loc baggies to friends and family members, when it is known that the person is having a "Hard time". I have had church members ask what drugs I or my family are taking, currently, to wake up, calm down, focus, get energized, zone out and best of all, sleep? These church members, assume everyone is living the same existance. Very Sad!
I know from the statements made in frustration, by health care professionals, who have attempted to help this mass of hurting humanity. From young mothers who have had too many babies, too close together, to fathers who work so hard at menial or under-paying jobs, that try to support so many children on so little money. The inability to make everyday choices without consulting the "Preachers", to make sure that the choice is not going to be sinful or offend any of the other "Christians"(this has even gone so far as to pertain to one or two ply scented or unscented, colored or white toilet paper). I do not exaggerate about these matters, as any honest congregation member will attest to. In fact, these are the very issues, along with the molestation/abuse, that are driving people to the brink of coping.
You may choose to argue, I know what I have seen and heard. I ache for these souls that have no answers in that church. I pray for Jesus to intervene and reveal the truth to the world. May God grant you the ability to seek the truth in his word, and may you take the offering of his Grace and seize it for yourself.

By Believing AND Free on Saturday, May 10, 2003 - 02:37 am:
You are creating quite a fan base for yourself! It really is quite entertaining. How do you know what you TEACH and believe is right? Seriously, anybody that has read the Scriptures cannot possibly come up with the doctrine that you TEACH. Your organization came into existence about 150 years ago. Weren't there any believers before that? The OALC teaches that Swedish Lapland is the Bethlehem of our time (that is where L.L.Laestadius is from). Isn't that paramount to saying Laestadius came to save the world because Jesus forgot something? Or putting Laestadius on the same pedestal as Christ?
It is routinely taught in the OALC to put full trust and confidence in the preachers and elders in Sweden, Finland, and Norway.
"This is what the LORD says,
Cursed is the one who trusts in man, who depends on flesh for his strength and whose heart is turned away from the LORD." Jer. 17:5
I am sure, Unworthy, you will disregard this because it is in the Old Testament, but maybe you should look at the numerous New Testament Scriptures that say put trust in the Lord. I know you are familiar with Philippians 3 (a commonly used text in the OALC) which says put no confidence in the flesh, but that is the tragedy when Scripture is not interpreted with Scripture. An organization such as the OALC preaches what they have heard the others preach, and this becomes doctrines of men. Having come out of the OALC myself (Praise God!), I pray for God to touch the lives of all those under the false teachings of Unworthy and the OALC. Unworthy- perhaps you should ask someone who has left your organization what they believe because you clearly have no idea, nor do you want to know. Instead, your group is told not to discuss their beliefs. Doesn't the truth stand up to scrutiny? I am sure you regularly check this site, but doubt you will continue to post. However, I hope you will, and perhaps you will even check your beliefs in light of Scripture, and you too will come to know a God who doesn't judge you for not wearing a skirt or for wearing jeans instead of a suit; but based on what is in your heart.

By Born-again, ex-LLL on Saturday, May 10, 2003 - 09:48 am:
Believing and Free,

In your message it seems you're implying that "Unworthy" is likely actually an OALC preacher; do you really think so? I have to admit that several things he has posted seem to indicate that, such as:

"In all lowliness and humility, with absolutely nothing of myself except for that great grace given from God, I must rebuke this person for spreading terrible, horrible, and abominable lies, blasphemy and all-out wickedness about the true and living Christianity" -- Unworthy

(hmm.. is there an award for humility? he is obviously pretty proud of that virtue)

I didn't mention this suspicion in my previous post because I was giving him the benefit of the doubt; I still know many people in the OALC and they teach that being on the Internet is a terrible sin, and that basically the only stuff out there is pornography (he does mention this in his posts as well). That said, I'll say that while the Internet has lots of bad stuff on it, it can also be used as a useful tool (just as the technologies of TV, radio, etc.)

By Born-again, ex-LLL on Saturday, May 10, 2003 - 10:48 am:
I should clarify my previous post to say that the reason reading Unworthy's posts raised the suspicions that they did was that he is very adept at wielding the OALC rhetoric, which would indicate that he was actually awake during the LLL sermon. And since he's clearly the winner of the humility contest, he would be first in line to be a teacher.

Regarding throwing away whole technologies (TV, internet, radio) based on the fact that it can be used for bad stuff brings to mind an analogy about babies and bathwater, but since I've already reached my quota of sarcasm for the morning, I'll refrain.

By anon on Saturday, May 10, 2003 - 12:00 pm:
Missy, I would love to email.

By polish on Saturday, May 10, 2003 - 01:17 pm:
Mr. you acualy have the internet in your home....or do you just sneek out and use some one elses or the public library? I would be surprised that you would us a library, for they have freedom of speech and they don't care what sites you are looking at....totaly un-regulated, compare that to a home with the net. Mom and Dad will regulate their house and make it a big to go onto bad sites and they also have the tech. to block out those sites. why do most of you oalc people smoke? it polutes the temple within and it is a sin to do damage to one's self knowingly! oh and also why can people get braces on their teeth and yet the girls are discourage to cut their hair or wear earings, alittle make-up? arent they altering what god gave them to please them selves? but yet they can tell another little girl they are going to hell because they have thier ears pierced. why are the girls allowed to dress in clothes that are so tight and short shirts? the mothers always dress so conservitively and show nothing? is it to attract a man? whats up with all this? it seems so hypocritical.

By polish on Saturday, May 10, 2003 - 01:22 pm:
Oh yea...also I forgot to ask mr unworthy...does their seem to be alot of children born with defects? the growth seems to be from within and that usualy means cousin/cousin realtionships. YUK in the group for no one in thier right mind on the outside would want to live and breath what is being taught in this group. God gave you a should use it every now and then...on your own....with out feeling guilty.

By Missy on Sunday, May 11, 2003 - 12:57 am:
Does anyone know the percentage of people in the OALC that have joined on their own and were not born into the church. Just curious. Also, I have noticed that the members of the OALC do not extend their duties outside the church, such as sending money to starving countries, serving community meals to the poor and hungry, volunteering at the nursing homes, hospitals, schools, etc., but I am sure that many get reduced and free lunch tickets at school, school functions, such as field trips are paid for their children by scholarships from donations, they take advantage, why not give back in some way, what you have recieved? Maybe not money but time. Do they offer to be a mentor, big brother or sister? Do they offer their time to correct spelling tests at school or read to the class. Are they there at the Christmas party helping the excited children? Probably not, just taking advantage of all of these "worldly" things.

By Smilin'Now on Sunday, May 11, 2003 - 02:17 am:
To Missy: I think that most members who aren't born into the church join because they marry into the church. Not many people stay who don't have family connections of some kind. As for giving back what they've recieved, many are struggling to keep their heads above water, not even doing a good job with their own children. I was there. Pray for them. Jesus rescued me, he can rescue them too.

By Paul the Apostle on Sunday, May 11, 2003 - 04:38 am:

I Corinthians 15

1 Now, brothers, I want to remind you of the gospel I preached to you, which you received and on which you have taken your stand.

2 By this gospel you are saved, if you hold firmly to the word I preached to you. Otherwise, you have believed in vain.

3 For what I received I passed on to you as of first importance : that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures,

4 that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures

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