Thumbs down

Past-E-Mail: Cam Notes - 2004: July: Jul 14-04: Thumbs down
President's visit to Marquette
Positive messages of support for Mr. Kerry or Mr. Nader

By JVO New Richmond MI on Wednesday, July 14, 2004 - 07:10 am:

Even though i am basicly a bush supporter ANY
national attention to the UP is dangerous.

By dave s wisc on Wednesday, July 14, 2004 - 07:21 am:

I think its great that Bush visited the UP....
Hopefully he doesn't like it up there because if he moves there, I surely won't.

More liberties have been lost since he took offfice than ever...
He has alienated much of our overseas support, and has kindled the flames of terrorism to an all time high. If you don't believe that, you have blinders on.
Our country is more polarized than I have ever seen...what happened to his political speeches on how he was going to bring everyone together?

I think the billions being wasted in Iraq should be used to help the homeless and downtrodden in this country. Yes, Saddam was a real bad man, as was his entire regime, but war is not the answer.

By BWL, mi on Wednesday, July 14, 2004 - 07:23 am:

Pre-emptive war is simply not a morally defensible position.

By Uncle John on Wednesday, July 14, 2004 - 07:43 am:

President Bush stands up there and assails Sen. Kerry for having voted against NAFTA, as all our manufacturing jobs move to Mexico and the iron mines that support the manufacturing shut down. Then the people cheer him for saying it. Are we missing something here folks?

By Uncle Bud/old Mohawk guy on Wednesday, July 14, 2004 - 07:44 am:

Way to go George, keep up the great work

By dan, TX on Wednesday, July 14, 2004 - 08:05 am:


What about the non UN sanctioned (security council only) war in Kosovo to prevent ethnic cleansing? Pretty much the definition of pre-emptive, except that Saddam never killed any of his people. Only the Kurds in the north (with WMD), ahh but that doesn't count does it because we all know this one is for oil.

By Brent, In a conservative enclave, Rochester, NY on Wednesday, July 14, 2004 - 08:30 am:

To Dave S:

Bush didn't take away your liberties, a bunch of muslim middle eastern men between 18-40 yrs old did.
Or have you not read a newspaper since Sept. 10, 2001?

On this war: If you liberal types want to feed, clothe, house and pay for the medical care of every poor person of this country, feel free. Just as you don't want to pay for a war, I don't want to pay for some wino's liver transplant and give him $700/month because he is "disabled". I can't wait until cigarettes are banned. I'll be able to get on the dole too because I won't be able to work without my smokes.

By Uncle Bud/old Mohawk guy on Wednesday, July 14, 2004 - 08:45 am:

Way to go Brent,
These do gooders should take a trip to NYC and observe ground zero.
These liberals are the same folks who as kids offered the school bullies candy or taddled stories to the teacher to save their own hides.

Rochester NY area, a great place to live, been here 33 years.

By Principal Mathers on Wednesday, July 14, 2004 - 08:50 am:

Still bitter about someone telling teacher you stole candy, Uncle Bud?

By Uncle Bud/old Mohawk guy on Wednesday, July 14, 2004 - 08:55 am:

Uncle John,
If you want to keep or create jobs in the UP , you need to vote out that Canadian gov you got and get rid of Stupac and some of those other socialists, and get the TAX burden down so industry will move in. You can't bribe a company to stay (as your gov tried to do with the downstate refrigrator outfit)

By Uncle John on Wednesday, July 14, 2004 - 09:00 am:

That's a simplistic view, Bud. We can lower the taxes all we want, it would still be impossible to compete with Mexican/Chinese wages. When Republicans give tax breaks to corporations to move jobs offshore, it pretty much tells you who they care about.

By Mel, Kansas on Wednesday, July 14, 2004 - 09:16 am:

I suppose it would be considered out of place by you folks supporting the war and saying that it wasn't Iraq that attacked us in the first place. It was a small sanction of people in Afghanistan - where the government offered to turn them over to us rather than have us start a war over it.

But I guess it was un-American for us to accept that, and we had to go invade a country with no relation to the attacks in the first place.

By MI on Wednesday, July 14, 2004 - 08:07 am:

Someone would believe what Michael Moore puts in a movie?

By joeyooper on Wednesday, July 14, 2004 - 08:08 am:

The movie, although containing some untruth's, is more truthful than the lies Bush told us to get us into Iraq.

By daveS on Wednesday, July 14, 2004 - 07:24 am:

family values, what a joke. go see Fahrenheit 911
greed...his family values are in 7 digits.

By UncleBud/old Mohawk guy on Wednesday, July 14, 2004 - 07:39 am:

Someone would believe what they see in a movie???

By RSK,wi on Wednesday, July 14, 2004 - 08:07 am:

DaveS, comments removed.

This message was edited and cleaned up. Remember we're not insulting each other on this page. Be civil to one another, please.

By julie b., MI on Wednesday, July 14, 2004 - 08:19 am:

DaveS and joeyooper just go to show the libs can't ...comments removed

Comments that are insulting each other will be removed. Remember to stick to the issues. Just remember, we can disagree without being disagreeable.

By Jimmer on Wednesday, July 14, 2004 - 09:48 am:

Ah yes, it is really very easy to see why our country is in trouble. It is not because of which politician has paid for the seat in the White House. It is not because of which international problem we choose to involve ourselves in or not. The real problem is that we cannot seem to have rational discussions about much of anything without mean spirited taunting and name calling. You see it from all directions - right, left, whatever. It wasn't right in kindergarten, people, and it still isn't.

By Rob on Wednesday, July 14, 2004 - 09:49 am:

Oh Geez, there goes the neighborhood.

By Qtip on Wednesday, July 14, 2004 - 10:36 am:

Iraq, a waste of time??? Why do you hear from every soldier that comes back that the Iraqis are very happy to have them there? Building roads, fixing schools, hospitals etc taking Saddam out of power... All this after the gutless UN issued 17 resolutions telling Saddam to cease and desist. Hopefully our country will never allow a foreign body tell us how to protect and run our country. Bush for 4 more!

By Paul on Wednesday, July 14, 2004 - 10:36 am:

WHatever your political persuasion let's keep it civil. It doesnt do anyone any good to stoop to the level of a five year old just because they dont believe the way you do and slam someone for what they believe. Everyone has a right to his/her belief and to insult and/or ridicule someone (especially not to their face) is downright pathetic.

By anon on Wednesday, July 14, 2004 - 10:48 am:

Hey wino's and drug addicts have to be clean for at least a
few months before they get a transplant for $200,000.
Then, they can go back to the sauce. You think we don't
have standards??? What else we gonna do with em?

By Kathy from Ann Arbor/Cheboygan on Wednesday, July 14, 2004 - 07:47 am:

What a horrible sight to tune into. As requested, I'll make no more political statements, here. But I look at this site to get away from downstate, to see natural beauty and get small-town perspectives. This is not what I expected to see here.

By RLL on Wednesday, July 14, 2004 - 07:57 am:

Kathy - I cannot see your "horrible sight" on this site, and you're obviously not seeing the "small-town perspectives" that you are looking for.

Tune out, I'd say.

By Senior citizen on Wednesday, July 14, 2004 - 11:14 am:

I am a senior citizen.

During the Clinton Administration I had an extremely good and well paying job. I took numerous vacations and had several vacation homes. Since President Bush took office, I have watched my entire life change for the worse. I lost my job. I lost my two sons in that terrible Iraqi War. I lost my homes. I lost my health insurance. As matter of fact I lost virtually everything and became homeless.

Adding insult to injury, when the authorities found me living like an animal, instead of helping me, they arrested me.

I will do anything that Senator Kerry wants to insure that a Democrat is back in the White House come next year. Bush has to go.

I just thought your readers would like to know how one senior citizen views the Bush Administration. Thank you for taking time to read my note.


Saddam Hussein

By J. Golden-Arizona on Wednesday, July 14, 2004 - 11:20 am:

Attn. Liberals-
According to your views, the U.S.A shouldn't make a move until some spineless European Nations give us the go ahead. Funny, I didn't realize we had to seek the approval from countries (i.e. France/Germany)that stand to lose millions of dollars because of our actions. Terrorism on the other hand has always been on our doorstep. Better to keep it on the backburner I guess until we are attacked on our own soil again. How quickly we forget!!!!!

By Tauno from Toivola on Wednesday, July 14, 2004 - 11:21 am:

First we get "Reaganomics",now we get "Bushwacked"

By joe upper pensiula on Wednesday, July 14, 2004 - 11:23 am:

my daugther is going to be sent to iraq in the near furture and for what reason i ask gov bush..........why did he only send 11000 troops where the real crimnals are that attacked this county............after 9/11 and i mean right after 9/11 i would have sent at least a 100 thousand troops surrounded all of afganstan and caught the real crimnals now this would have been an honrable thing for my daugther to go fight for.........the war in iraq was wrong and now bush is saying it was for other reasons then he first stated ........and if he believes in the war in iraq why doesnt he send his daugthers there

By KATHY, LOWER MI. on Wednesday, July 14, 2004 - 11:28 am:


By Bush fled, while Kerry bled on Wednesday, July 14, 2004 - 11:35 am:

Wait a minute.... there's a place for Thumbs Up(pro-
Bush), and another for Thumbs Down(pro-Kerry), so
why does this latter one have the arguments from both?

By joe upper pensiula on Wednesday, July 14, 2004 - 11:38 am:

one more thing im sick of all the bush adds cutting down kerry where are the bush adds telling all the good things he has done for the county.........why arent there any cause he hasny done any thing good...........natoinal debt an unjust war losing jobs and dividing the county........didnt he say he was a uniter in the 2000 election ..............from reading all the stuff on this site are we more untied now........dont insult me anymore gov bush and dont ever come back to the upper pensiula for votes where were u the past 3 years

By jim on Wednesday, July 14, 2004 - 11:39 am:

The president can't send his daughters to Iraq. We have a
volunteer Army. Your daughter chose to serve her country,
and you should be proud of that sacrifice. I can't believe
that it is an easy one for any parent at any time.
Why would you send more troops than you need for a
military operation. That is why there aren't more troops in
Afganistan. Your question is you answer. If an unecessarily
large force was sent to Iraq more families would have their
daughter and sons in harms way for no acceptable reason.
More servicemen and womens families would be suffering
and waiting for thier return for an unnessary reasons.

By joe upper pensiula on Wednesday, July 14, 2004 - 11:46 am:

your right jim unessary reasons and i am proud of my daugther very proud but we could have caugth bin laden in afganstan if more troops were sent we didnt finish the job did we? or am i missing something

By waiting on Wednesday, July 14, 2004 - 11:58 am:

Where is Wheatman when we need him?

By Jim on Wednesday, July 14, 2004 - 12:10 pm:

I am under the impression that most of the troops that are
actually after Bin Laden are the special forces that everyone
hears about. These aren't very large in number and are very
nimble which is good for the mountainous guerilla warfare
that goes on there. While Iraq is being led by the armys real
heart force. Which is better at holding ground and fighting
heavy warfare. I think the big question is to ask why George
H W Bush didn't take out Saddam Hussein in the first Gulf
War. After all, we had him on the ropes. The answer is we
were worried that it would be a mess to operate such a
militaristic and messed up place and obviously we had
allies in the arab world that were footing the bill in that war
and weren't gonna pay or support the takeout of another
Middle Eastern leader. Probably that is the real mistake in
this, if you ask me. I don't know what Husseins link to 9/11
is other than rumors of meetings and the fact that he just
represented lawlessness in the region(violations of UN
treaty) ,had the ability is a really bad guy( ability to produce
WMD), that the world probably will be a better place
without him generally(tried to assasinate a former US
President), the war allows America to project power into the
region and if all works out maybe a successful democracy
in the middle east, if that happens, will be a guidepost to
the improvement of life and security in the region.

Hope it all works out that way and well for you. I wish we
were tougher with North Korea and Iran's nuclear weapon
program. Seems time ran out on those issues. That is a real
travesty IMHO. Bin Laden is in Pakinstan from everthing I
read, near the border of Afghanistan. He crosses back and
forth and suffers from kidney failure. So he has to have
dialysis, is already dead or someone gave him a kidney

Sadly, I don't think he is the end of the road until we are
able to undermine the overall stucture of organised
terrorist organisations. In other words, shut down Al

Best of Luck to your daughter and you. Wars make the
world better sometimes, but in reality it is a stupid fact of
human existance that we find them necessary from time to

By daveS on Wednesday, July 14, 2004 - 12:13 pm:

I'm not usre what dirogatory comments were made from my f911 statemnt which got moved...sorry it shouild have been in the thumbs down category...
I am very much against the Bush admin.

I'm an American. I do not want my civil liberties diminished. Not sure where you guys are, but I will guarantee that if you speak too harshly about how you feel on the iraq mess, or talk too harshly against Bush, you will be in some hot water very that's freedom for ya.
If you instigate any discontent with the current regime, you're going to be on the watch list.
If you want cia and fbi to know everything you do, and basically arrest you without any regards to your rights, go ahead and support this Patriot Act.
We're on the virge of our election being postponed...for what???

This government has folks running around in fear..or at leat they're trying to make us afraid. Its very easy to control people when they're afraid. They will allow just about anything to happen to make them feel secure again.

Relelect the shrub and see what happens.

I used to have money many people have to lose all their insurance, their retirement income, and pretty much their lives before you bush supporters wake up.
How many jobs have to be sent to Mexico, China, and India before you wake up.

When will you wake up and realize that killing does not achieve peace in the long run. We;ve v\been killing since the beginning of time...and we still are. How long have they been fighting each other in the Middle East ? In Eastern Europe?
Ireland? think about it.

Why was Iraq so bad when North Korea HAS nukes...and is sabre rattling all the does Pakistan and India. France, Isreal...the USA...weapons of mass destruction.
Who are we to be so control the world. Yes, we have the biggest stick, but how many empires have survived by beating down their enemies....NONE

By J Golden-Arizona on Wednesday, July 14, 2004 - 12:15 pm:

Did I say something wrong? Are we not allowed to mention the French or Germans? Just pointing out the fact that others were against the war because of "side deals" of certain nations just as much as we are for it because of "oil". Terrorism has been an issue for decades. Dubya just decided to do something about it...unlike others- Peace

By joe upper pensiula on Wednesday, July 14, 2004 - 12:17 pm:

nice converstaion jim thanks you for ur words and ur wishes of good luck for my family

By JM, Washington on Wednesday, July 14, 2004 - 12:31 pm:

To Brent in Rochester, NY


By Jim on Wednesday, July 14, 2004 - 12:42 pm:

You too. I'd be going nuts in the same situation. Probably
wish they would take me instead of my kid. Your right to
ask why. There always should be one ____ of a good
reason. Anyone who disagrees with that fact is just crazy.
And those who feel there is never a good enough reason
may not be far off the mark.

By Vanessa MI on Wednesday, July 14, 2004 - 12:47 pm:

People aren't being nice here??? WOW!!!!! I had to check out this side of things.... LOL

By Linda in Genesee County on Wednesday, July 14, 2004 - 12:47 pm:

Sure glad bush is a Uniter not a Divider. From the looks of the posts on this thread and the things I see on the news, people are 180 degrees apart on this president.

Along a similar vein, I don't think there has ever been a President who has received so much "Bad Information". I guess it makes an easy out when your statements are exposed as falsehoods.

I truly believe most of the people who vehemently support the abberation that sits in the White House are doing so out of the old defense mechanisim that kicks in when people are presented with anything truly evil and bad. They really don't want to face up to the fact that the president is NOT looking out for their best interests, that he has an agenda to help out all of his buds who fork over large contributions, and that he wants this country to evolve into his fascist view of how things should be.

A vote for W is a vote to kill America.

By Mary in Maryland on Wednesday, July 14, 2004 - 12:48 pm:

I keep wondering how all the money spent in Iraq would have been used in this country, if there was no war.... Seems like that would add up to a half billion dollars to each state every few months this past year, if the feds were paying attention to home issues.

By vet's daughter on Wednesday, July 14, 2004 - 12:49 pm:

please see this(requires Flash)

it really makes you think...

By Sarah, California on Wednesday, July 14, 2004 - 01:01 pm:

I can understand both sides of this argument, and am torn between them. But there is one thing I feel needs to be said. It is incorrect and racist to make the blanket statement that all Arabs and Muslims are terrorists, hate Americans, or what have you. Osama bin Laden and Saddam Hussein are extremists, exceptions to the rule. Islam is not a religion of hate or violence, but extremists give it a bad name. There are extremists of all religions out there, and we should be careful not to discriminate. It's also important to educate ourselves. People often say that Arabs and Muslims are bad or evil without ever having met any. Every Arab and Muslim that I have met is disgusted with the actions of Saddam and Osama, and all of them detest terrorism just as much as all of the Christians I know. Also, I want to point out that not all Arabs are Muslims. They are Christians, Jews, Buddhists, and many other denominations. Also, not all Muslims are Arabs. I have met American Muslims with no Arab ancestry whatsoever.

By bsb, sr on Wednesday, July 14, 2004 - 01:19 pm:

Vet's daughter,

Cool slideshow of colorful snappy propaganda. Too bad none of it is true, but they did a good job of it, democratic spinmeisters would be proud. Of course "spin" is what they are all famous for, too bad there are still "Kool-Aid drinkers" that will believe it.

By Openminded regardless of what you think of it on Wednesday, July 14, 2004 - 01:21 pm:

The Koran sure isn't the New Testament either and i think
that ought to be clear as well. It basically reinterprets the
whole Judeo/ Christian thing and not in a way that is
terribly positive from a
modernist perspective womens rights, acceptance of
differences in others beliefs. Certainly there are still open
minded Muslims. I had a room mate in college that was
Muslim. Haven't heard from him since 9/11 but he probably
doesn't want to have to talk about the whole thing. He is a
big Republican ,by the way . I don't
condemn his religion, but I don't accept it as being right
either. You shouldn't have to downplay the real differences
that human beings have in order to be considered open
minded. It represents a vastly different view of the world
and God. It is a valid question to ask how Western
Democracy and the muslim view will coexist in time. Or for
that matter Muslims and the state of Isreal. When do their
opinions as nations cross into the realm of hate. Remember
the good Germans let the bad Germans commit the atrocity
of the holocaust.

By Bthecute1, San Jose on Wednesday, July 14, 2004 - 03:16 pm:

You keep right on laughing Vanessa, but this is no laughing matter. This country is truly divided, thanks to Bush and Company, and in Big Trouble. Why do we have to be the Savior of the world, when we can't even be the Savior of our own nation. Take United in United States for instance. Are we really? We need to make a change come November, providing he doesn't cancel the Conventions. Next, he will be canceling the elections just to stay in power. Just my opinion.

By BT,TC on Wednesday, July 14, 2004 - 04:01 pm:

Good thing this one didn't come up before would have been a food fight for sure!

By CJ exhausted in MN on Wednesday, July 14, 2004 - 04:02 pm:

Wow, what a day in this journal! I can't wait for something less intense tomorrow. Alot of strong opinions, no viable solutions, as usual. I've come to the conclusion that people love to complain, but very few step up to the plate with any workable solutions. I'm exhausted from reading all of this negativity.

By Jason Tormala on Wednesday, July 14, 2004 - 04:02 pm:

Its great to see the President visit da good ole U.P. but I wonder why many are against Bush and what hes done...going to Iraq was not wrong, how else w ould we have handled 9-11? What would have happened if we did nothing? and being there for oil is a lie, doesnt' anyone know about the roads being rebuilt or the schools being put up? i have one cousin in Afghanistan and one came back from Iraq and trust me, what G. Bush decided to do has helped those people out a as a soon to be soldier I say good job G. Bush and he will have my vote for 4 years

By danbury; germany on Wednesday, July 14, 2004 - 04:13 pm:

Ouch. Where to start?
First: Just put in a "Go Bush" on the other site and forgot to ensure any reader understands the irony, because here comes the full: Go Bush! Go home asap.
Clarification: "You" and any reference to the US is meaning the official USA as represented by the government. Not all you people (unless, of course, you feel properly represented by said government in given context).
Here's to J.golden, AZ: spineless, huh? Short story: Bully of the hood say's let's go punch these folks (whoever), anyone not going with me is a wiener. Ok, so you think going is tough. I think it's spineless.
Must admit your honesty, though. At least you have the decency to admit you go out killing people over oil. I'll leave the civilizedness in this for anyone to consider.
After all, you went out to bring civilization and democracy to the barbaric and undeveloped middle east, so the primitives there could creep out of their holes and celebrate th glory of the allmighty US. Seemed like that about a year ago.
And then - oops! They have streets here! Houses! In short, modern technology! This is not my saying. It is the short version of the thoughts of an american soldier who was lead to believe above position and suddenly found himself not among the barbarians.
Yes, as far as I got it, they (Iraqis) were mostly glad S. H. was gone. But they didn't ask for your democracy (which is a questionable claim as I feel it to be rather an economical oligarchy, something I don't expect to change with another guy in the white house).
Not to mention civilization.
The point with democracy, no matter to which degree, is that it is the result of a development. It needs several things. The urge of the people to have it, for starters.
Iraq: No.
A strong middle class, to put the damper on extremists.
Iraq: No.
People being able to think, and a whole lot of them on several sides of the political spectrum so people have something to chose from. To use a bad word: Intellectuals (at least to a certain degree).
Iraq: Not enough (exported).
Most of all, democracy is not a thing to trade. And most certainly nothing to be dealt out among the loosing side after a war.
Don't forget their pride.
The situation in Iraq is very different from Germany after WWII (read this position somewhere, think it was on the pc). WE, or rather, the people here, had democratic experiences before. so, after the military dictatorship after WWII, the switch towards a version of democracy was not as abrupt as it would be in Iraq.
I have to admit that there were german companies doing business with the wrong countries. Still are, I should think. Just like americans. Where there's money to be made, Big Biz will move in. It's just, I think, there was more profit to be made by starting the war and then keeping the rebuilding to american companies. An understandable attitude.
But what is german business to the UN? A lection many people in europe have learned, and I dare to say even whole countries, is that war is no answer. So, the UN did'nt go for the american bad-boy-bashing not because some states might loose money, but because another way was tried. 17 resolutions and no end in sight ... oops, wrong. When the american threat could no longer be ignored, progress finally was made in negotiations with S. H. & Co. Inspections found nothing in the means of mass-destructive weapons (term?), almost nothing of all the things that were given as reasons for the necessity to move in there.
The US decided to go anyway.
Oh, well, in you went. And now you've found out war means your own folks get killed, too, you want to leave again, huh? Not that I can blame you.
But would you please understand that you're not here to democratize, free, and civilize the world?
As to the kindling of terrorism and fighting it: Erasing Al Quaeda would accomplish not much. There's a potential of millions of poor, angry young people, perfect fodder for extremists looking for victims to be radicalized and used against anyone they happen to have a grudge against.
What you wnat to do with them? Line them up and shoot them?
How about giving them a chance not to become utilized by extremists? That not cool or what?
Just a little comparison I stumbled upon recently: Funds needed to keep the HIV-problem in check for the next decade: 20 billion. US military budget: 900+ billion.
I'm not saying we're that much better. But ti still seems obscene to me. And I don't think education is that much more expensive than fighting a disease that has no cure.
Only your credit as samaritan seems rather low to me.
On religion: It is a valid question to ask how western democracy and christian fundamentalists will coexist in time. As good as w. d. and muslim fund.s, I presume. If you want to know how it might work out, look at todays modest religious people, no matter Jew, Muslim, Christian. It works. Just so smoothly it only gets perceived when searched for.
Good germans and bad germans: How sad to read that again. The whole mass of the german people got agitated. All good, honest people. Of course there were the bad ones. But they are anywhere. It was the corruption of the good people that made the holocaust possible, and maybe WWII.
And this can happen anywhere. All it needs is a mostly homogenous people in heavy stress, like fear, and a strong leader with a good PR detail. In that case, watch out.
I will not launch into social expectations, herd dynamics and such, having exhaustively uttered my opinion enough already. But think about it.
Two things at the end: You've said (before you went, when we said we wouldn't go) that we have to be brought in line, to be taught proper awe and respect towards the US. There was the word of "insubordination". If it wasn't so disgusting, it would have been the political laugh of the millenium.
Even then, I never hated you. Depending on whom I was thinking of, amusement, disgust, disdain, pity, just with you. Never hate.

I think there are many people like that out there. Despite that guy.
Sorry for the space taken.
Have a good one, what ever it is.

By AARP/MI on Wednesday, July 14, 2004 - 04:22 pm:

Anyone who votes for the Bush is comitting suicide for this country. I too lost my job and everything after going to college and working very hard all of my life. George Bush is useless.

By James, MN on Wednesday, July 14, 2004 - 04:23 pm:

FDR declared war on Germany but they didn't attack the US,
Truman declared war on Korea but they didn't attack us.
Kennedy declared war on Viet Nam but they didn't attack us.
Clinton declared war on the Yugoslav countries but they didn't attack us.
Bush declared war on Iraq and they didn't attack us.
So what is new?

By Roudy Mi on Wednesday, July 14, 2004 - 04:48 pm:

As the wealth of this world shifts to the far east, your petty discussions will be moot. Chew on that for a while

By Proud to be born in Michigan on Wednesday, July 14, 2004 - 04:49 pm:

Just a few thoughts:

To Qtip: "Iraq, a waste of time??? Why do you hear from every soldier that comes back that the Iraqis are very happy to have them there? Building roads, fixing schools, hospitals etc" Don't we have some of those here to fix?

To Golden-Arizona: "Terrorism on the other hand has always been on our doorstep." Hmm...shouldn't we have attacked Saudi Arabia then? The 911 highjackers were all Saudi's. That's right, I keep forgetting, we went to Iraq because they had WMD...oh..they don't? Whats that you say, our intelligence was flawed? Well, um..hmm...well...

To everyone in the UP that posts to this site: You all live in a beautiful place. There are other beautiful places. President Bush wants to drill for oil, and open up logging in those places. If he came into your back yard, how would you feel then?

By Frank,,,,, Milw...... on Wednesday, July 14, 2004 - 04:55 pm:

Well,the left coast didn't let me down. The "cute one" from San Jose.... How predictable........

By Dave of Mohawk on Wednesday, July 14, 2004 - 05:04 pm:

As if enough of the world didn't hate America before; Bush with his personal war in Iraq has caused even more people to hate us and for good reason. We had no business taking over Iraq. It's been a terrible cost of lives, not to mention the fact that our great grandchildren will still be paying for this war, and for absolutely no reason. Bush's only justification for the war was that Saddam had weapons of mass destruction, none were ever found. Even if he did have them, Iraq had no way to deploy them. As for the economy of the country; just take a look at the past track record. From 1980 to 1992 the country was in a terrible recession if not a depression. Clinton took office in '92 and got things back on track, the market was doing fantastic, unemployment was down and we were paying down the national debt. Since Bush took office the market has gone down the tubes, unemployment has skyrocketed and the national debt has spiraled out of control. This is not even an opinion but just the facts.

By Grandma. on Wednesday, July 14, 2004 - 05:39 pm:

My parents told me, don't say anything about any one, that you wouldn't want them to say about you...Your not going to change there mind...

By Hmmmmmmmmmmm on Wednesday, July 14, 2004 - 05:45 pm:

I wish Mr. Bush would send his daughters overseas to work as medics. Maybe if he had some first hand experience with the horrors of war, he would change his tune about war-inflicted injuries and deaths to our soldiers and the people of Iraq.Is the war about the flow of oil since there haven't been any weapons of mass destruction found? Perhaps the only weapons of mass destruction are Bush/Cheney/Rumsfelt brains.

By Carl, Ohio on Wednesday, July 14, 2004 - 06:03 pm:

It's exciting when a president visits. W visited Owens CC, where I teach, the day after this year's state of the union. But his visit showed me the fear he seems to have of some Americans. At least one person was nearly arrested for having an anti-Bush sign in the area for the official reception--which W skipped. Interestingly, pro-W signs were allowed so the content must have been what rankled the secret service. And only two profs and several students were granted tickets to attend. Other tickets went to Ohio's gov, senators, local pols, and ceo types. Moveover, throughout the discussion W never used the word "education" rather he referred to "job training." Draw your own conclusions about W's commitment to education. As for the visit itself I could do without that kind of excitement. Carl

By Reagan Fan, MI on Wednesday, July 14, 2004 - 06:21 pm:

To Dave from Mohawk:

I just wanted to correct you revisionist version of history:

1) The U.S. economy was NOT in in a recession from 1980-1992 as you state. It was more like 1979-1983. I realize the U.P. began its recession in approximately 1919, but I believe you were referring to the U.S. as a whole.

2) The economy and stock market didn't crash AFTER Bush took office in January, 2001. It crashed specifically in March, 2000. Many liberals try to slip that one by.

By J. Golden on Wednesday, July 14, 2004 - 06:29 pm:

First to danbury Germany. Perhaps the problem is that people have different definitions of the word "spineless". Probably different definitions of the word "appeaser" as well. I'll leave it at that! Speaking of definitions. I thought a Bully is someone that picks on those that can't defend themselves. last time I checked, Saddam was quite OFFENSIVE"!
Second to Proud to be born in Mich- Me too. See, we do have something in common. I also agree that we should disengage ourselves with the Saudis. Your Man Kerry talks about being more self-sufficient in regards to oil but yet we can't dril in Alaska, Florida or put up windmills off the coast of Nantucket. Almost as confusing as saying life begins at conception and being pro-abortion...hmmmm, that's Kerry too.

By Bernie in Troll Land on Wednesday, July 14, 2004 - 06:36 pm:

I agree with JVO - let's keep the U.P. a secret from the rest of the country, so it doesn't get ruined!

By s on Wednesday, July 14, 2004 - 07:00 pm:


I don't think pre-revolutionary America was rich or
prosperous but democracy began to thrive there. Culture
has something to do with that issue. I love the arguments
that countries in the third world aren't ready for an idea
which really is a pretty good one. As a culture, I seem to
notice that Germans apologise alot, but don't seem to really
defend principlesof human behavior. I think Germany
learned the lesson that war didn't work when they kept
losing them to America. Leave it to Germans to equivocate.
You sound like a southerner talking about Slavery and the
Civil Rights Movement. I wonder why.

By J.C., Upper Michigan on Wednesday, July 14, 2004 - 07:15 pm:

Just chipping in my two cents here
Iraq DID have schools and roads, Until we came along that is, Then where'd they go? Oops, I guess that bomb isn't as accurate as it's supposed to be, And then there's that Weapons of Mass Destruction factory over there, Oops, Turns out it was a hospital, My bad... And in all actuallity the bombs are extremely accurate, How do I know? My father worked on the Guidance system.
They just bomb what they feel like and then rebuild it saying "Oh look, We're helping the people" Yea Yea Yea... We're cleaning up our political mess...

Support The Troops, Not the Leader...
I'm out of here before this turns into an all out insult war

By s on Wednesday, July 14, 2004 - 07:16 pm:

PS My family left Germany to get away from Prussian wars
at the turn of the century. So don't get me started.
Question, what would you do? You don't suggest any
answers to terrrorism, unethical businesses that trade
against UN sanctions, and I haven't seen any radical plane
chrashing Christian Fundamentalists since the Crusades.
Just one isolated nut at an abortion clinic here or there. No
one says that reducing the effectiveness of terrorist
organisations will be easy. But you can't just wish
everything away.

By s on Wednesday, July 14, 2004 - 07:20 pm:

J.C. That is if you count a place where you learn to not think
and obey Saddam and his raping sadistic kids as a real

By sg/Milford, MI on Wednesday, July 14, 2004 - 07:45 pm:

Well if the hanging chads had not hung, you all know we would not have seen Bush for the Forest! It's unfortunate that we are all in this situation, but we are and Mr. Kerry will have to work to get us out. We need to make sure we stand behind him while he puts our country back together. We need to all start working together or there won't be a "US". I think you all know what I mean. United We Stand...Divided....
I hope you all pull together for the betterment of our Country! Have a Pasty and gets some rest!

By daveS on Wednesday, July 14, 2004 - 08:03 pm:

stop support for the Isreali enslavement of the Palestinians.

Turn the middle east borders back to pre 1900 or so.

Give the UN power to get something done. the US has circumvented the UN authority and does not abide by the rules set up. We do not pay our dues owed the UN.

Asist all areas of the world equally. We choose whom to support and when, usually in regards as to how it will improve our situation. In relation to our continued "national security" we have supported some of the most viscous regimes in history. We have trained many of the armies used in killing their own citizens, including the great fols in Iran and Iraq. We supply most of the weapons throughout the world.

Our government is extremely hypocritical...supporting dictoators when needed, supplying arms, not abidin or participating in treaties, such as the ban on land mines.

how can anyone trust what we say? Wonder why terrorism is born?

Did you know that the US pre CIA operatives instigated a coup in Iran in 1953 that ousted the only democracy in the middle east that put the Shah in charge in order to keep control of the oil in the hands of the British...and those same operatives trained the Shah's brutal secret police ?

By Scott on Wednesday, July 14, 2004 - 08:13 pm:

Most out of touch President in history.
I'm guessing he didn't even know the UP existed.

He hasn't a prayer in the Midwest so
he best get down on his bended knee.

By Nostradamus, Heaven on Wednesday, July 14, 2004 - 08:44 pm:

There is a tendency for liberals and western Europeans to be accommodating apologists that keep turning their other cheek in the face of evil, until they need to have someone step in and save the day. If not for the U.S. getting involved in WWII, the British and French would be speaking German today. World War Two was bloodier than it had to be because as Hitler was buiding his war machine from 1933-1939, England and France choose not to make a pre-emtive strike early on. Because they sat on their hands and wished the problem away, by the time of the Britzkrieg on 9/1/39, the Germans were a monster to be reckoned with. The liberal strategy with war is like someone who knowingly waits for a cancerous tumor to grow to the size of a baseball before seeking treatment. No one likes to make a pre-emptive first strike, just like no one likes to solve boredom by getting chemotherapy, but it is better than complacency. Republicans are not perfect by any means, but on National Security issues, they have more "SISU" than most democrats.

Without the intestinal fortitude and blood of the United States, the Beatles would have recorded their entire song catalog in German and the French would be eating their cheese wearing Lederhosen saying "What have you done for me lately?" just like they do now.

By fgw on Wednesday, July 14, 2004 - 08:46 pm:

Paul, please don't insult five year olds. They are generally much more civil.

James (& company), you might check your facts, and your sources.

Fire GW, bring back Bob &/or Elizabeth Dole.

By Bthecute1, San Jose on Wednesday, July 14, 2004 - 08:51 pm:

To Frank,,,,,Milw.....Am having trouble following your statement. Was there something in what I said, that bothers you? I think you should be bothered by what is happening here. Did I not explain myself clearly. Do you feel that everything here in our Nation is A OK and we have nothing to worry about. Do you think I am misinformed by the facts that I read and hear about on a daily basis.I have trouble seeing the poor, the hungry, people losing there jobs, homes, medical insurance, cuts being made decreasing our manpower in the police departments, crime on the rise because people have lost there jobs, people sleeping in there home to go to, cuts in education, programs being set aside because there is no money to support them, and hundreds of other things not named here: only so Bush can continue to spend Billions on Iraq. Building roads, schools, hospitals over there. We need those things here. OK Mr Frank, I am predictable...I admit it, I am a woman who has the same right as you to express her views. And what would your views be Mr. Frank,,,,,Milw.....

By sg/Milford on Wednesday, July 14, 2004 - 09:15 pm:

Bthecute 1, you are soosooo right. This guy is arrogant and nasty. Why can't folks see what we see? They took our jobs, our insurance, our everything. If they really wanted to fight, they would have cleand up the whole darn nation in Iraq with a bull dozer and started over. This was just a game at our expense. A darn BIG expense. Yes mame, you are right. Kerry is the man!

By on Wednesday, July 14, 2004 - 09:19 pm:

in 2004

By vet's daughter on Wednesday, July 14, 2004 - 09:38 pm:

bsb, sr,
It's obvious you have no clue as to what our veterans
and current service men and women are NOT getting
from this current administration. Come see our local
army base and I'll show you real poverty. But what can
you expect from a fellow who dresses in a flight suit and
pretends he's a flyboy just for another photo op? What
an insult to our real heroes!
And what's this about Kool Aid? As far as I know, one
can hide just about anything that alters one's mind in
any beverage... take rum and cola, for instance.

By DJ Whitten on Wednesday, July 14, 2004 - 10:03 pm:

Just wondering...
Who would Osama want for President of the United States of America?

By Thought for the Day/MI on Wednesday, July 14, 2004 - 07:56 pm:

We need to pay this man our respects. He did run our country for a year and now it's time for him to give someone else a chance. I've always been a Republican; however, I cannot agree with his principles. No matter what the affiliation, we need change. Thanks for the visit. You know what they say about company.

By grimace on Wednesday, July 14, 2004 - 09:23 pm:

Hey Carole ,
It is not different subject!
I'm sure that the library bar is not going to
receive grant money from the DOD
to study heat emmissions from tanks and trucks so that a $248 Smart zone project profit will occur. That poor self employed person probably has to sell to satisfy the IRS demand for tip money he
under reported for the individuals that he gave a JOB . Do you pay your taxes or does your
Where is AMERICA Going We need leadership!

By Monty Python, MI on Wednesday, July 14, 2004 - 10:11 pm:

Remember when England was a great country? They used to have limited crime with world class engineering and culture. Now with their weak-kneed politically correct ways, they have limited engineering and culture and world class crime. They recently banned guns and their street crime has gone completely out of hand. Our liberals (democrats) want to copy western Europe's government policies in every way, so just decide in November if you want to continue the transformation of America into a second world country like modern day Britain.

Remember, England may have national health care like Canada, but living near Windsor, I get to hear many Canadians tell of the substandard medical care they receive in Canada that also involves agonizingly long waits for elective surgery. A common question to Canadians at the border between Detroit and Windsor is "Were you in the States to go to the Pistons game, or were you getting a quadruple bypass?"

By Jason Tormala, Toivola, MI on Wednesday, July 14, 2004 - 10:26 pm:

ok, i see many of you are against this war on terrorism, Weapons of mass destruction...none? thats a lie..i have 2 cousin who are over there and they have found but theres nothin that will impress the dont say nothing unless u have been to iraq!..we aint over there for oil, if we were , we woulda went a long time ago..and what should we have done, jus sit there and let planes fly into buildings? Thats disgusting to think anyone would do that!..It may not have been iraqi's but they are the same WAY!.saddam has supported many terror groups, and its all worth it, he is to face justice, as will every terrorist...And john kerry? a veteran? he killed a wounded vietnamese man and was given awards for minor scratches, where men who have faught and died dont get nothing, but respect..kerrys a coward...if u ask me

By R.N. on Wednesday, July 14, 2004 - 10:26 pm:

Accessible, national health care is a right, not a

By Bthecute1, San Jose on Wednesday, July 14, 2004 - 10:34 pm:

To Frank,,,,,Milw.....Am having trouble following your statement. Was there something in what I said, that bothers you? I think you should be bothered by what is happening here. Did I not explain myself clearly. Do you feel that everything here in our Nation is A OK and we have nothing to worry about. Do you think I am misinformed by the facts that I read and hear about on a daily basis.I have trouble seeing the poor, the hungry, people losing there jobs, homes, medical insurance, cuts being made decreasing our manpower in the police departments, crime on the rise because people have lost there jobs, people sleeping in there home to go to, cuts in education, programs being set aside because there is no money to support them, and hundreds of other things not named here: only so Bush can continue to spend Billions on Iraq. Building roads, schools, hospitals over there. We need those things here. OK Mr Frank, I am predictable...I admit it, I am a woman who has the same right as you to express her views. And what would your views be Mr. Frank,,,,,Milw.....

By James on Wednesday, July 14, 2004 - 10:36 pm:

I'd rather be on a waiting list for elective
health issues then not to have anything.

How can one afford healthcare today?
If your company doesn't offer it?
And the trend is not to offer it.

Average family policy: $600 plus dollars a month.

What is the average hourly wage in the U.P?

We have a crisis in this country and they
are worried about Gay marriage?

Paying jobs are nice too.........

By k on Wednesday, July 14, 2004 - 10:36 pm:

A previous poster on the THUMBS UP page wrote; "...and I find it sad a that there are people out there that while they have every right to their opinion of the President and his decesions are more inclined to bash him then discuss what's important for the future of this country."
Isn't it amazing how things turn around ?
Remember Ken Starr ?
20 bucks says the guy that posted the above message was ready to throw Clinton outta office for his "escapades" in the oval office...

By grimace on Wednesday, July 14, 2004 - 10:52 pm:

Cut off from the neutral zone, looking for freedom , a flash from the past! Remember the slogan " I LIKE IKE " Thank you Pasty Charlie.

By pf on Wednesday, July 14, 2004 - 10:59 pm:

I suggest we all pitch in and purchase The Library. We
can make it a spot where anyone may be given equal
time to speak his or her opinion, and be listened to,
whether they like donkeys, elephants, little green men,
or other parties. And when the houselights go on and
last call is bottomed-up, we all walk out into the good
night together, slap each other on the back, and be
thankful for our voices. Only in America can one speak
so freely as folks have here today. Gosh, I'm tired.
G'night, pasty. com'rs.

By dave s wisc on Wednesday, July 14, 2004 - 11:21 pm:

Mr. Tormala from Toivola...

Senator Kerry was in the Vietnam Vietnam.
Your President Bush was in the National Guard avoiding Vietnam....
Don't tell me he was in there to protect our country, because I know well enough that a lot of guys joined the NG to avoid the trip.

You need to expand your knowledge offense meant, because I know you've not been around much yet in the term of years and experiences.

Please join the military as you have stated. Our country needs patriotic youth to defend the homeland...but we don't need blind patriotic youth following an ill-informed president into a preemptive war against a sovereign nation on lies...and getting their butts killed.

My family has served in the dad was in WW2, I was in Vietnam and spent 14 years in the military, my brother retired with 30 years in, twice to Iraq..the 1st gulf war and this one..101st Airborne for many years, retired, went civil service with the 101st, and to Iraq...broke his back in an attack by Mosul, so I know what its about to be patriotic and in the military, and to be at war.

Good luck to you in your future...I pray things cool down over there. The war on terrorism is a necessity..but the Iraqi war is a far cry from going after terrorists. And the war on terrorism can be won by the correct political action on the part of the US and UN.

9-11 had absolutely nothing to do with Iraq...nothing. If you delve a bit deeper into the politics of the middle east and our roll over there, you will discover the roots of terrorism as it relates to the middle east. Hopefully someone with more knowledge of foreign affairs and whom is not wrapped up in energy and defense company profits will become president in 2004....and that's not Bush.

By daveS on Wednesday, July 14, 2004 - 11:33 pm:

and i may add that I'm not all that keen on Kerry either.
A great 3rd party candidate is needed. Someone who is truly looking out for regular Americans and America...and our roll in the world, not someone all tied into big corporations and the fat cats...and there is no one running right now that doesn't fit nto that mold.

I think its time we Americans take back our country. Elect someone that REALLY cares...enough of the promises that aren't kept...but can it change the way our country is so tied up in all this money mongering?

By Pogo, Ahmeek on Wednesday, July 14, 2004 - 11:35 pm:

George is a very poor president for the country, because I lost a job and I haven't got a new one for a long time. This makes perfect sense. Plus, all those people in India and stuff are getting good jobs that I might want. Who says they're allowed to have jobs anyway? BUSH and BIG OIL and BIG TOBACCO and BIG TEETHING RING MANUFACTURERS??? They should tell those icky people in other countries to stop working so much in case I want those companies to pay a wage I demand. WAKE UP HOW CAN I MAKE MY TOYOTA PAYMENT WITHOUT A JOB?
What do you right wing extremist nutjobs have against Osama and Saddam anyway? Do they really deserve such harsh treatment? Who is America, the armpit of the universe, to judge third-world bloodthirsty dictators? Excuse me while I go beat myself for living. oooh those dumb foreigners. Why DO they work at jobs?
Wait one more thing don't you people realize that the folks that work at oil companies or whatever that are successful American corporations are OBVIOUSLY not normal humans? They're out to get us. honest. Peter Jennings said so. They're BIG.
Let's listen carefully to the people from Germany and France and Canada that have such successful social structures that their citizens gave up even caring. Kerry for prez! YAY! Wisdom and integrity are SO overrated.

By Proud to have the right to vote on Thursday, July 15, 2004 - 12:07 am:

With all this political bashing I am left wondering what does Kerry stand for.....Maybe we can have him deliver some "Heinz" ketchup or gravy for our pasties when he is on the campaign trail.

By danbury; germany on Thursday, July 15, 2004 - 02:01 am:

J, s, no time now, but in case this is closed to new posts ere I get back, please mail me.

By Bthecute1, San Jose on Thursday, July 15, 2004 - 04:35 am:

I almost feel it is time for a complete change of leadership. Has anyone considered a woman in the White House. You know we have learned how to take care of our homes, (country) we have learned how to manage our family's finances (government spending) we know how to balance our budjet, (governmental budjet) we know how to cook, (feed the poor) we know how to settle disputes with our children (stay out of war) we know how to entertain (meeting with world figures) Why should we continue to let the men have all the credit. You know they are hiding behind our apron strings. Who is to say that we cannot do a good job in the White House. :)

By sg/Milford on Thursday, July 15, 2004 - 05:59 am:

Dear Proud to have the right to vote,
That would be a whole lot more than Bush brought. Words are just that, WORDS! You all had better put your thinking caps on and think this whole thing through. It is not a good picture here. You complain you have nothing and yet you still don't know why.

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