Past-E-Mail: Various Topics: Misc Fall 2004: VOTE
dave s wisc on Sunday, October 31, 2004 - 11:40 pm:

Get out and vote.

this is an important election, no matter which side of the fence you're on.

If you like the direction we're heading, stay the course...if not, change commanders...

and I must say it..I'm all for a new commander...but not necessarily the guy from Massachusetts, although he's the only one that has a chance.
Someday we may have a real choice.

By John J, IL on Monday, November 1, 2004 - 05:41 am:

A couple of others who are "all for a new commander" are Osama and the U.N. They both timed the release of what they perceived as their most damaging messages just days before the election, clearly wanting to push America toward the extreme left.

It will be interesting to see if America goes along with Osama and the U.N. It just gives me two more reasons to keep our current commander for another term.

By Jim - Michigan on Monday, November 1, 2004 - 05:57 am:

Did you ever think that maybe "your" commander was responsible for having the message posted at this time?!

By John J on Monday, November 1, 2004 - 06:16 am:

Yea, right. And if you buy that, I know where you can pick up a bridge really cheap.

By Bob, New Mexico on Monday, November 1, 2004 - 07:06 am:

Any publically elected official who requires that I sign a loyalty pledge before I can receive a ticket to see and hear him will never get my vote. This is what has happened if you wanted to go to appearances by Bush or Cheney. It happened again yesterday, here in New Mexico.

By danbury on Monday, November 1, 2004 - 07:11 am:

When I read about what Bin Laden said I thought, great, one supporter for the status quo.
The only part where the old one has a real edge over the new guy is the fear of terrorism, which Bin Laden appeared (to me) to be fueling.
Other than that, I can't help but noticing that bin Laden seems to be doing really great after three years of war on ... Iraq?
John, don't you think there're some slight differences between the UN and Bin Laden?

By danbury on Monday, November 1, 2004 - 07:15 am:

Sorry, sounds slightly off. Am just wondering.

By Freeman-USA on Monday, November 1, 2004 - 07:34 am:


By maijaMI on Monday, November 1, 2004 - 07:46 am:

Bob: you are so right on. Who can possibly understand that sign-an-oath-to-come-to-my-rally thing!!?

I am also concerned about the (reported) vote suppression going on in heavily urban (Democratic) areas. One guy (of course, can we trust our media?) was quoted as saying, 'We must suppress the vote in....' Maybe people are unaware of this, or believe it is not true, but since it is happening in so many states, I truly connot understand how anyone can support an administration that isn't working the other way: to get ALL the vote out!!

Personally, I am very concerned about how our national debt has skyrocketed under the current administration and all the implications of that.

I hope that anyone wanting to attack my views will contact my e-mail! These are political opinions--I don't want this site to get nasty.

By Drew, MN on Monday, November 1, 2004 - 08:13 am:

Went to a Bush-Cheney rally here in Minnesota and didn't have to sign an oath. Is this really your experience? If so, I am sorry but I'm still voting for Bush. I suspect the majority of New Mexicans will be as well.

By Protowhatever, Calumet, MI on Monday, November 1, 2004 - 08:29 am:

I just want to share an experience and now I feel I can given this new forum.

About a few weeks ago, I saw an SUV with a Bush/Cheney sign on the grill and "Vote for Bush" written on the windows and an Anti-Kerry sign on the back. It was a very festive and noticeable vehicle. Driving this vehicle was a young man, eagerly waving to people.

I couldn't help but smile because a young person was so involved.

On a not so nice way of getting the word out, while Trick-or-Treating last night, I noticed someone had spraypainted in big letters "Bush for President 2004" on the sidewalk. I was bummed to see that vandalism.

By Drew, MN on Monday, November 1, 2004 - 08:33 am:

I wonder if the sidewalk vandalism was some type of "voter suppression" method aimed at the people in your neighborhood. This should be investigated!

By moi on Monday, November 1, 2004 - 08:47 am:

Too bad that because someone is against Bush, they automatically vote for Kerry. Just skip the vote if you don't like either. Kerry is so fake it's ridiculous. He's everything to everybody. He plays every sport. He's for guns, anti-guns. He's young, he's old and wise. He's liberal and PC, he protects our rights. He likes big cars, big cars are bad. He'd pull the troops, he'd finish the job. 100% politician. Ugh..

By ME, AZ on Monday, November 1, 2004 - 08:58 am:

On the Halloween/young person note: Last night a young teenager came to the door with a suit and dunce cap on. He had a placard around his neck that said: "Bush masks were sold out. This is as close as I could come."

I asked him if he didn't think he was too old to be trick or treating. He said probably but he had to take his little brother out and thought if he could get some goodies for his trouble, why not?

When I asked him if his parents influenced his costume he said "No way. But if he wins, I'll be 18 before he is finished, and I do not plan on having to fight any stupid wars like Iraq!"

When I asked him if he thought fighting terrorists was stupid too he replied "All wars are stupid but at least in Afghanistan we are fighting the idiots that attacked us. Iraq is a different story. That is just plain greed."

Just goes to show our youth are not totally apathetic.

By Kate, CA on Monday, November 1, 2004 - 09:33 am:

Our nation can send a roving probe to Mars which can send back photographs through the use of sophisticated technology, but we can't find Bin Laden? What a joke. According to Michael Moore's Farenheit 911, the Bin Laden family is friendly with the Bush family, has been for years. It was Walter Cronkite who, yesterday, theorized that Karl, Bush's campaign manager, actually engineered the "appearance" of Bin Laden a few days before the election in order to continue to use fear to herd the American people into voting for Bush. People, the Bin Ladens are FRIENDS OF THE BUSH'S!! I urge everyone to not let their vote be motivated by their fear, but rather their conscience. Do you really want our nation to continue it's downward economic spiral by increasing the national debt to finance a war of greed for oil? Do you really want to bring back the draft so that our nation's brightest stars can end their lives prematurely? How many more lives must be lost so that you can continue to drive your SUV? Ask Mr. Bush what his plans are for alternative energy?

By Hil, UP, MI on Monday, November 1, 2004 - 09:48 am:

The Farenheit 911 film was completely Bias. About 15 percent was fact and 85% speculation. The Bin Ladens invests in a company the Bush families also have a financial relationship with. The Bush family is not "friends" with the Bin Laden family. Michael Moore's movie is not a credible resource. Sorry.

By finlander, painesdale on Monday, November 1, 2004 - 09:58 am:

Greed for oil, if that does not sound like another broken record propaganistic comment I don't know what is. If it always for oil, why have we never taken the oil? From anywhere? Interesting but unsubstantiated opinion, kind of like the ol' standard "tax cuts for the rich". Using "Farenheight 911" as a legitimate source of information is like using "Mein Kampf" as a human rights reference. On a side note, I don't know when we are going to know when there is a winner in this one, as they are finding out more people are registered to vote than there are people of voting age in some areas. A man was heard bragging that he voted for Kerry 35 times via absentee ballots. But GOP poll monitors wanting to make sure that the people wanting to vote are really who they say they are is intimidation? Come on! Anyway everyone get out there and vote and have a great day.

By Drew, MN on Monday, November 1, 2004 - 10:01 am:

How many years did it take to find the Unibomber in our own country? How about Eric Roudolph? Your arguement obviously doesn't hold water...

By MA, MI on Monday, November 1, 2004 - 10:18 am:

Kind of a misleading comparison. The government didn't send 50,000 troops after the unabomber. The unabomber didn't have thousands of accomplices. The unabomber did not appear in videos sent to news organizations. The unabomber did not have countries around the globe looking for him.
On the other hand it took only 9 months to find Saddam. It has taken 3 years and still no Bin Laden even after capturing most of his captains. Perhaps if we had stuck to capturing Bin Laden and destroying his organization instead of side tracking into Iraq, it could have been a done deal to. I'm not saying Moore's film is 100% correct but it is odd that a family of lawyers or an organization like the GOP, which sued Moore over giving out underwear to people that registered to vote, didn't sue over the alleged false allegations.

By finlander, painesdale on Monday, November 1, 2004 - 10:18 am:


President Bush has provided $1.7 billion for hydrogen technology development, tax credits for using renewable energy, plan to expand use of ethanol and biodiesel, $2 billion in a international effort to produce clean coal technology, tax incentives for new energy technology, tax credits for buying hybrid vehicles, and more programs for having less dependence on foreign sources. John Kerry has pretty much taken what Bush is already doing and spouting it as his own ideas. He has no new or different ideas and only uses his typical vague comments with no substance as he is wont to do.

By joesyopper on Monday, November 1, 2004 - 10:20 am:

I do not think the Unibomber is a good analogy. We didn't know who he was, or where he was until his brother turned him in.
Everybody knows who Osama Bin Laden is, and for a short period of time knew his approximate location.

By Kate, CA on Monday, November 1, 2004 - 10:55 am:

HaHa....struck some nerves with the people who drive certainly are entitled to your opinion, but millions and millions of Americans disagree with you. And speaking of bias, orchestrating an appearance by Bin Laden is just that....And Finlander,I happen to know of a gentleman who invented a turbo engine that split the hydrogen and oxygen molecules of water to produce energy and was paid HUGE monies NOT to produce his engine. This was in the 70's. You are aware that the U.S. is using foreign oil to refill our own reserves? After all, it's an oil based economy. Get back to me when you're paying $5.00 and up for a gallon of gas. How much of what you claim was actually started during the enviornmentally friendly Clinton era? Of course, people here in California pay more for a cup of special Starbuck's coffee than a gallon of gas....go figure. Of course there are NO EASY or glib answers. No one answered the question re: bringing back the draft...Is that what you really want? All I was suggesting is that people vote with their conscience, not their fear. And support your local sled dog enthusiasts!! They can run without oil.

By JohnH abroad on Monday, November 1, 2004 - 11:00 am:

Osama Bin Laden is the bad guy of the Bin Laden family.
On a sidenote, there's already trouble with the voting process, as far as I know. Weird. After the mess four years ago one would have thought this time the elections would at least appear foolproof, not even more questionable than then.

By Skylar in Wi on Monday, November 1, 2004 - 11:00 am:

I will be so fricken happy when this is all over! Have a nice day. Later, Skylar.

By cheryl mi on Monday, November 1, 2004 - 11:04 am:

About the draft issue, President Bush says he won't reinstate the draft. Right!!! He already has a draft, the "backdoor" draft.Most of the men over in Iraq are reservists that have been called up since day 1. I think Bush just started this war to finish off where Daddy hadn't & he didn't have a well thought out plan. 60 minutes had a segment on last night showing the "poor" equipment the guys over there have & have had since the beginning of the war. Pretty bad!!! Guys are being killed because they are riding in humvees that have no reinforced armor on them. This last statement is not from 60 minutes, it is from someone who was over there & said he rode in alot of humvees & only 1 had the armor.

By finlander, painesdale on Monday, November 1, 2004 - 11:19 am:

There is no reason to bring back the draft. The draft is not "brought back", but can be used in a national emergency at any time, by any administration, but not at the order of the President. It must be voted on in Congress. The re-up and volunteer rates are very high right now so there is no reason to even mention it. If the Clinton administration had not gutted the military to the tune of 709,000 active duty and 293,000 reservist troops we wouldn't even be hearing about this but that is another story for another time........

By Hil, UP, MI on Monday, November 1, 2004 - 11:19 am:

Please don't be offended.....
Speaking of conscience... 1.3 million babies are aborted every year. That's 1 every 25 seconds. 3% of all abortions are due to rape, insest, and health risks to the mother. The other 97% are aborted for convenience. Since the Rowe vs. Wade decision, 30 years ago, Americans have aborted more babies than the 5 times the current population of New york City. So you tell me what's more important, saving lives or gas prices?
Tomorrow I will be voting with my conscience!

ps I drive an economy car, own 40 wooded acres and support environmentalist, but saving lives is more important than all of that to me.

By Kate, CA on Monday, November 1, 2004 - 11:28 am:

Hil, I wasn't offended. Just enjoying the debate. I believe we're all entitled to our opinion. That's what makes America great. And I do know that freedom isn't free.

By Hil, UP, MI on Monday, November 1, 2004 - 11:31 am:


Great! By the way, I spent my first 20 years in Sacramento, CA. I don't miss it much. Have you been to the U.P.?

By Hil, UP, MI on Monday, November 1, 2004 - 11:32 am:

well... better do something useful with my day.

By bsb, sr on Monday, November 1, 2004 - 11:33 am:

Perspective: 75%-80% of the military supports Bush for President, that should give you the feeling on the ground by those who know it best. I think we should give them the commander in chief that they want.

By middle class on Monday, November 1, 2004 - 11:43 am:

I am not really a political wiz, so here is my little 2 cents.....I'm 34, and I think if I look back on my child hood its not really that much different than my childrens and we have had Dem and Rep presidents in the last 20 years. We work, go to school, pay our bills, and the biggest changes I have seen are morally. That is not up to the President anyway, thats up to us individually. I guess I am saying that either way, Dem or Rep, life will go on, and we will do what we need to do to take care of our families. Terrorists will or will not hit us either way. YES YES I believe we need to vote, and I count it a privelege, but to burst an artery over it is not worth it to me.

By Republican on Monday, November 1, 2004 - 11:47 am:

I heard today from the AP that the Chinese communists want us to elect Kerry.
Enough said!

By MA, MI on Monday, November 1, 2004 - 11:54 am:

... and Iran has publicly said they support Bush. I guess that suggests Bush has a deal with them too.

By nate on Monday, November 1, 2004 - 11:54 am:

I would just caution something when considering using Farenheit 911 as a convicting source of information for your vote.

1) Can Farenheit 911 be considered a true documentary? No for 4 reasons. First, Michael Moore was less interested in discovering the truth behind the 911 attacks than he was in looking for the nail in the coffin to bury Bush. He started making this documentary, with his mind already made up before he looked at any facts, or did any investigating. Second, he starts with the 2000 election, in which he is attempting to discredit Bush's claim to the Presidency. He tries to paint the picture that the nation was outraged, and completely against Bush. However the nation was pretty evenly divided at that time in history and there was at least as much evidence supporting Bush. Michael Moore completely ignored that evidence, he only only accepted evidence which supported his claim. Which sets me up with an uneasy feeling for the rest of the film.
Second, he includes a disclaimer at the beginning of the movie stating that individuals statements were taken out of context and at times they really did not mean what they appeared to be saying (ie he edited the portions of what people said that he did not want to hear)
Third, he grabs anything he can to make whatever the Bush administration does seem evil. For example, he seems to support us invading Afghanistan. He criticizes the Bush administration for not commiting to an all out blitz into the country right away. He chooses to ignore the fact that Afghanistan shares a border with China (who was very concerned with us invading Afghanistan) And with the fact that in every other operation we've had in that part of the Globe since WWII China has interferred with by helping whoever we were fighting. We had to proceed with caution. Moore chooses not to even consider or mention that there was any possible good reason for us using caution. But in nearly the same breath he says that the main reason Bush decided to invade Afghanistan was because he wanted to build a pipeline through their country.
Fourth, (pretty much the same as Third) Its just too one sided. There is no evidence that he was willing to consider anything except that Bush is evil and should be defeated at ALL COSTS.

That being said, most folks who watched this film wanted one of two things. 1) To blindly agree with everything in this film because it supported what they wanted to see. OR 2) To blindly disagree with this film because it was counter to what they believed to be true.

I say this. No one can disagree with the fact that this film is defamitory. I believe this film had one purpose. That purpose is to attack Bush, and a secondary purpose is to explore the reasons behind the attacks. For that reason alone I consider this film to be too one sided to be taken seriously.

I believe one thing to be taken from the film is this, the Arab world has invested heavily in our nation. It appears that the Arab world is trying to defeat us by buying us. For that reason I believe that we need to push for independance from oil. As the public we need to write letters, push our congressmen, and make it known that we need to do whatever we can that will keep our money from going to oil.

Alternative fuel is the new man on the moon. I wish I could put some more time into this, but just consider this. At this point in history we have the technology to explore and create feasable alternative sources of fuel. We also have more reason than ever to do this. So why don't we pour ourselves into this more passionately?

By moi on Monday, November 1, 2004 - 12:14 pm:

THis new forum is awesome, is it not?
Thanks, pasty! Even though you may not agree with a lot that is said, it's great that you offer an outlet for it to be discussed! Thanks.

By Joe Finn, Rhinelander, Wi on Monday, November 1, 2004 - 12:17 pm:

Dr. Nat in Nevada,
What ever happened to Oil Shale in Colorado? These huge reserves were supposed to be the answer to Arab oil. The recovery technology was proven, but the process was too expensive in those days.

By Observer in Montana on Monday, November 1, 2004 - 12:25 pm:

A tidbit from an observer: Kerry, like Gore, has publicly stated that he has always wanted to be President. He has spent a considerable portion of his life preparing to become president. What are his true ambitions, what is driving him to want to be (our) President? For those of us who work for a company of more than say 100 employee's, or own a business...would you want your CEO or direct boss to be a man like Kerry? If so, why? Does Kerry have the integrity, morals, conviction, and vision to guide and oversee the leadership, growth, and continued success of our great country in today's world? When standing side-by-side with Bush, can we say with true conviction in our hearts that Kerry is more of man and a leader than Bush!? Consider the positions these two men have held through out their lives and how their stances on issues have strengthened or supported our country. How many enjoy sitting and visiting with smooth talkers? Who would we rather have by our side when the going gets tough? If we had the choice, which candidate would be the better grandpa for our children?

I know I appreciate someone (boss or friend) who stands up for what they believe and is consistant in what they believe! Both canditates are rich men, but my opinion is that money has affected one more than the other...

Get out and vote smart!

By can wait til weds on Monday, November 1, 2004 - 12:27 pm:

Check this out:

By Kate, CA on Monday, November 1, 2004 - 12:37 pm:

Hil, lived there many years ago,(back in the dark ages) still have family there, still visit regularly. It is special, no doubt, and although I live near San Francisco, my heart remains in the U.P. No matter what your political persuasion, the beauty of the U.P. captivates. Watch out, I may be back! HA! (Need relief from the land of Aaahhnold!)
Re: alternative energy sources, Nat, imagine a world economy based on Sunflower seed oil! ;-) And to the skeptics of Michael Moore's film, believing is a choice. If anything, it's food for thought, and has certainly prompted debate in this setting. Have a wonderful day everyone!

By CJ in MN on Monday, November 1, 2004 - 01:06 pm:

Boy, I sure hope people aren't going to make an "informed" decision voting tomorrow based on Michael Moore's movie!!!!! This is ONE person's opinion!!! You can't believe everything you see in the movies, on TV or written in the papers and magazines. People have their own agenda's in writing and producing articles, movies and TV shows and decisions shouldn't be made based on garbage. That's like believing what you read in the National Enquirer!!

By jason, cp road on Monday, November 1, 2004 - 01:10 pm:

The interesting thing about Michael Moore's "documentary" is that there has been 2 other films made that refute every claim in Moore's movie. Do you think anyone that watched Farenheight 911 took the time to watch these other ones objectively? My assumption would be no, because they have their mind made up beforehand about what they want to believe, even when confronted with the other side. By the way, although I may be opening another can of worms, but would most people agree that the best vote on proposal 1 (gambling prop) would be "yes"? Just wondering as I am not sure I fully understand the pros and cons of this but am leaning yes.

By Hil, UP, MI on Monday, November 1, 2004 - 01:21 pm:

I'm voting yes. Everytime a city wants to errect a gambling center, we the people will have a chance to vote. It's our state after all.
However, Indian reservations are the exception. Tribal reservations can do whateve they want as long as it is on their reservation. Therefore, proposal 1 hardly affects the non-natives, since the majority of casinos and gambling facilities are on reservations.

By Yooper in Indiana on Monday, November 1, 2004 - 01:21 pm:

maybe should have done a poll to see whom would win the Presidential Election!

By w on Monday, November 1, 2004 - 01:31 pm:


By Cousin Jack on Monday, November 1, 2004 - 01:45 pm:

Some network commentator mentioned this past week that he thought the real story of this election is the Upper Midwest and trying to figure out which direction these roughly 50/50 state races are eventually going to swing. We really like to think things through up here (I'm guessing it's those long winters, eh?) and we share a common culture of educational excellence. Our undecideds, in states still to close to call, are looking past all the partisan spin and ideological mumbo-jumbo to the deeper truths about everything each candidate has to offer. We are serious about our civic responsibilities and that's why we don't jump to hard and fast conclusions. We are examining the facts of the past 4 years and we are weighing it against our own hard-earned historical perspective whether we be so-called liberals, conservatives or the truly varied mixes which I believe most people in real life actually are. And when we have exhausted this deliberation process come Tuesday, we will step into the voting booth and try to make a sound pragmatic judgement about which candidate(s) will be best for the future health of the American Republic.

"History" tells us that undecideds statistically vote against incumbents but then "History" the past few years has also been swept up in some unexpected and still indecipherable turbulence.

Then there are all those young disaffected voters who aren't registering a ripple on any of the state or national seismographs. If they decide to turn up and vote their conscience in great numbers on Tuesday the final totals may well surprise many a pollster's prediction.

Today's Electoral-Vote Predictor has Kerry at 298 and Bush at 231.

•••• the polls, the op-ed endorsements and all those godawful tv ads. We've got some serious thinking to do and all that partisan campaign spin is now but white noise interfering with the sound and final decision we each have to create in our own individual heads and hearts come tomorrow.

See you there,

By young voter on Monday, November 1, 2004 - 01:47 pm:

I think in a way its vote for the lesser to 2 evils.

By young voter on Monday, November 1, 2004 - 01:48 pm:

lesser of 2 evils, sorry about the typo

By Dave Cloutier - Colorado on Monday, November 1, 2004 - 01:50 pm:

What an interesting situation! First you start with a president who was "elected" (supposedly) but with less than 50% of the votes. This President enters office with the largest budget surplus in our nations history, which he promptly gives 90 percent of to the wealthy in the form of tax relief. Then, you have the horrible 9/11 attacks, after which the only non-military plane allowed to fly was the one carrying the Bin Laden family members out of the U.S. The fact is the Bushes ARE business partners with the Bin Ladens, just as Prescott Bush was a business partner with the Nazis during World War II. The Bushes have a long family history of profiteering from wars. If you don’t believe it look it up.

Then this president who received less than half the votes decides (unilaterally)- (Don't even try to call this a "Coalition" it is not!) that America should go to war against Iraq. And to justify his decision to go to war he claims he has "undisputable evidence" (said by Cheney) that Iraq has weapons of mass destruction. The fact is Iraq did not have WMD and the evidence certainly was not "undisputable".

Now keep in mind that several key advisors to this president including Rumsfeld and Paul Wolfowitz have been pushing for a war against Iraq since 1991 (right after the first President Bush). (Once again, it is fact – Look it up) So regardless of the facts about WMD and terrorist ties this president seized the opportunity to go in and overthrow Hussein. (America’s policy for the Middle East into the new Millennium by Wolfowitz 1991- look it up) And they overthrow Hussein without formulating any sort of workable exit strategy.

Then, after the president goes to war, somehow Cheney's former company is awarded the contract to rebuild Iraq (to me this seems more than a little irregular) and then, after being awarded this huge multi-billion dollar contract, during the first quarter of 2004 Halliburton over-billed the government $241,000,000.00. (that is just the over billing!!)

And the longer the war goes on (and on) the more we learn (belatedly) of just how poorly conceived and managed the war was to begin with and how much information was withheld and/or flat out misreported by this administration. This war has killed tens of thousands of innocent Iraqi women and children (collateral damage), hundreds of tons of munitions are now in the hands of the insurgents, and worst of all, while Bush was focused on his war in Iraq a black market nuclear arms dealer was spreading nuclear bomb technology to other nations and at least one "unknown buyer". Because of his war, Bush has inspired a whole new generation of potential radical Islamic terrorists who now hate America. The truth is America is now at greater risk of terrorist attacks than before 9/11. But this administration isn't being honest with us.

And quite frankly people, I find the ease at which this president and Cheney spew lies is nothing less than appalling! They have proven that they cannnot be trusted. They are running on a campaign of fear, and hate and lies; and they disguise their actions under a veil of "Patriotism", but their actions are anything but patriotic! Don't listen to their lies, look at the facts.

Bush likes to say “he can run but he can’t hide” – well this president can’t hide from his own record. After only four years in office this president has turned the largest budget surplus ever into the largest deficit ever in our nations history, we have lost the respect of much of the rest of the world, we are stuck in a war in a nation with a long history of political instability, nuclear bomb technology has spread to several new nations and the founding principles upon which our nation was established are being eroded by our own government.

Never since the Civil war has our nation been so divided. This arrogant administration has stated that "you are either with us or against us"... and the manner in which this administration applies this philosophy scares me. Our nation was founded on the principles of democracy and freedom of speech and the pursuit of happiness. But this administration has made dangerous erosions to the fundamental protections provided under the Constitution. They call it the "Patriot Bill", but this bill is dangerous! They claim it is necessary to fight terrorism, but think about it, does anyone really think that we can achieve 100% safety from terrorism without giving up most of our freedom? Under provisions of this bill all the government has to do is claim that someone is a "suspected terrorist" and they can lock you away indefinitely.

America is about freedom and democracy and respect of others. I would rather have my freedoms intact and protected by the Constitution than give such unlimited power to any government. Once we lose these protections and freedoms it will be impossible to get them back. And if we allow these freedoms to slip away because we were afraid of terrorism, and America ceases to be "America land of the free", then the terrorists will have won won't they...

We need to show the rest of the world we are united in purpose, strong in spirit and worthy of leading through diplomacy. We need to show the rest of the world that Americans do not approve of the manner in which this administration has handled the situation in Iraq and attempted to take away our constitutionally protected freedoms. If we continue on the course established by this administration I fear we will lose the dream of America altogether.

Defend America - Defeat Bush!

By RGG - Cedar Rapids on Monday, November 1, 2004 - 02:03 pm:

So far so good!!
Great discussion folks. To which I would offer;

Hil UP
To use Bush's politically motivated stance on abortion as your sole reason to vote for him, seems pretty narrow minded when you consider his stance on the death penalty and the killing of inocent civilians in Iraq.

His last year as the Texas Gov, he didn't stop 131 prisoners from being executed.

As Commander in Chief, he willingly authorizes the use of bombs that will, without a doubt, kill inocent civilians

A life is a life is life.

No matter how young, how evil, or if you just happen to be in the wrong place at the wrong time.

By middle class on Monday, November 1, 2004 - 02:05 pm:

Wow, the steam is still rising off that last post, it was hot. I still believe that either way, we are in for it by the terrorists, they hated us before Bush, how many times did O SAMMY BEEN HIDING threaten us before 911? It is so important to vote, but when its all done, concentrate on the well being of your family, because thats what important.

By Dave Cloutier - Colorado on Monday, November 1, 2004 - 02:06 pm:

Sorry my first post was so long, but I have one more point. Many people do not approve of abortion and that is fine. If you don't approve of it, then don't have one. But remember, America is about freedom (including choice) and the pursuit of happiness. I seriously doubt that anyone takes the decision of whether or not to have an abortion lightly. Abortion is a very difficult, but private decision between a woman and her doctor. Who is arrogant enough to think that they should have a say in someone else's right to choose? That is like me deciding what faith you should be.

By Dave - Colorado on Monday, November 1, 2004 - 02:09 pm:

Bush is steadfast against abortion in all cases, but yet he so cavalierly has killed tens of thousands of innocent Iraqi women and children. What a supreme hypocrite!!

By think about it on Monday, November 1, 2004 - 02:14 pm:

BIG difference between a murderer and an unborn baby don't ya think?
An eye for an eye keeps them from wasting our tax dollars so they can have internet access, TV, better medical care than I get...etc. I know a man who works in a prison who takes complaints from inmates. Its ridiculous what they get at our expense. Tax money should be going to the prevention of crime, once they kill, how can you tell the victims families that "a life is a life".

By adopted as the option on Monday, November 1, 2004 - 02:15 pm:

Yes, abortion is a choice......just ask the unborn baby.

By think about it on Monday, November 1, 2004 - 02:25 pm:

And don't tell me that its not really a "baby" yet. You have to twist your mind to believe that. I'd go to jail if I killed the the unborn spotted owl, or eagle or whatever, but its OK to jam a pair of medical scissors in a babys skull via partial birth abortion because its my choice.

By Mel, Kansas on Monday, November 1, 2004 - 02:27 pm:

On the subject of 'morality', saving lives, and so forth -

Can any self-respecting woman, knowing how hard women in the past in this country (and in the present around the world) have fought for equal rights, the right to vote, the right to make decisions for themselves, possibly vote *for* a man who wants to take away our right to make decisions about our own bodies and lives?

Yes, I realize that very few abortions are the result of rape, incest, etc. But let's take a closer look at that 'danger to the mother's life' statement... what about her mental health, and the health of her dreams and ambitions? How much of *that* is damaged by *having* a child? All of a sudden, that college degree she was gunning for is a lost cause, because of the expenses of a child. *poof* there go her dreams of a career that is self-satisfying, because of the time required to raise the child. And... oh, wait. There goes her own life - she didn't want a child, knew she couldn't support a child, couldn't pay for the bills to have a child, and she killed herself.

How many young women (and men - the fathers of children, the dear friends of mothers to be) will be lost to suicide because they no longer have a choice? Despair is a horrible thing - and that's what's left for people with no reasonable choice. Abortion is *not* murder. It's making a responsible choice. If you do not have the means to support a child and provide it with a quality life, then there is no reason to bring it into the world to suffer.

Yes, adoption is an option. But unless there are adoptive parents waiting, and willing to cover *all* the costs, it still takes a lot of money to pop a baby out. Then it gets to go from foster home to foster home, from family to family before finally getting its own parents. Sometimes waiting *years*. In that time, also gaining the awareness that it wasn't wanted. Quality life? Doubtful.

Let's take a quick look at teenage depression too - it happens to a lot of kids - some more severe than others. Cue the standard arguments between parents and their teenagers, when the teen is trying to establish his/her space and independence in the world, and it causes a lot of heartache in both parents and teens. If the choice of terminating unwanted pregnancies is taken away from us - what happens in these arguments when the parent slips and says "I never wanted you anyway!" The teenager sees this as the ultimate in rejection, in an already sensitive time, and *poof* there goes another life. Mom doesn't love me, she never even wanted me, so what do I care what she thinks anymore? She won't miss me, she never wanted me. I'll run away/kill myself/go live on the street/go do drugs.

Won't happen if we're allowed to continue to make the choice for ourselves.

I have my college degree, I have a wonderful job, my husband has his college degree, we are paying off our school debts, and we are able to live our lives as we wanted. Because I had an abortion. I made the responsible choice. I am proud, and I will not vote to put the livelihoods of thousands of young women into the hands of the government, when the choice should be ours.

By Dave - Colorado on Monday, November 1, 2004 - 02:34 pm:

Have you seen this yet?

So what happened to the wings and tail of the 757 that supposedly hit the pentagon??

By sorry to be so upset on Monday, November 1, 2004 - 02:34 pm:

Great choice, and make sure when your done living your happy life and decide to have children that you tell them about the brother or sister you aborted because you wanted to have your career first.

Just because there is no grave for your baby does not mean it didn't exist and die at your choice.

You really deserve great respect for exercising your freedom of choice.

By nate on Monday, November 1, 2004 - 02:34 pm:

Freedom is also protecting those who can't protect themselves.

When I look at abortion, I have to ask a couple of questions

1--is the fetus alive? What is your answer to this? My answer is yes, it grows, consumes nutrients, and does what it can to stay alive (ie it actually uses the nutrients to continue growing). If this is not the definition of life I don't know what is.

2--is the fetus dependent on some form of life support? Yes, that would be the mother. It could not survive on its own, but then again there are many elderly individuals who don't contribute to society, are mentally incapable of making decisions, and if forced to sustain themselves would die. Is it acceptable to allow there primary caretaker to decide to euthanize them? I don't think that is acceptable. What do you think?

3--Is it a mother's choice to get pregnant? Not in all cases. As Hil pointed out 1% of women who get abortions have been raped. And another 2% result from health concerns. But 97% of all abortions occur after a women has consented to sex. I believe that is where the choice is made. If I decide to have sex, then I consent to the consequenses of my actions. If I don't want a child, then I abstain.

Therefore I think abortion is only acceptable in the rarest of cases. An abortion destroys a lifeform. Whether you consider it human or not it is a lifeform.

America is about freedom. And to obtain that there are laws that limit our individual freedoms for the greater freedom of society.

If there is a religion where people settle their disputes by fighting to the death in the city park every Sunday should they be allowed to do it? Remember in this case both individuals consented to it.
Just food for thought

By WhoGoesThere, MI on Monday, November 1, 2004 - 02:36 pm:

If you want the middle class of America to be eliminated then vote for Bush... he's totaly for the upper class which most of us are not!

VOTE FOR KERRY! Give America hope!

By Nate on Monday, November 1, 2004 - 02:40 pm:


I work with a number of foster children. We have some good times and whereas they all have a desire to have been born into a family with a father and mother--they are happier to be here today than not. Because they are here they have the opportunity for a better tomorrow. Should the children have been aborted?

By Mel, Kansas on Monday, November 1, 2004 - 02:44 pm:

Dear Sorry -

I don't plan to have any children at all. Problem solved.

And Nate -

Yes, the fetus is alive. It can also be considered to be a parasite - living off of something else, and not providing anything in return. Do we nurture lice? Ticks?

By CFW - Oregon on Monday, November 1, 2004 - 02:51 pm:

That's it, I've had it.

I've been a registered Republican since I pulled my first lever in a voting booth, and I've voted as a loyal Republican for Republican candidates consistently every year. I am 55 years of age. I am considered a right-wing Christian conservative and strict constitutionist who knows the Framers of the Constitution expected strict adherence to that original document unless and until it is amended.

You don't get much more conservative and constitutionally-minded than I am, and that is why I just cast my Oregon vote-by-mail ballot for Democrat John Kerry as the next president of the United States. So did my wife -- and she's a very independent thinker. I know there are thousands of lifelong Republican/Independent conservatives who are going to do the same thing on November 2nd, because they've written and told me so.
Jacksonville, OR: She was holding a 5-year old girl before she was dealt with

The absolute last straw for me took place at the Bush rally, held in Central Point, Oregon on October 14th. President Bush stayed in Jacksonville, Oregon overnight after the rally, and protesters and police clashed on the streets. I sent out a photo of a Jackson County Sheriff's Deputy, all Nazi'd up in black leather riot control gear and grinning evilly as he shoved a woman holding her 5 year-old daughter. It wasn't the finest hour for local law enforcement, but even that wasn't the last straw for me. No, the last straw for me happened just before the Bush rally itself.

Three local teachers got tickets to the Bush rally, passed all the security checkpoints and scrutiny and got in. They never created or caused a disturbance, and they were perfectly peaceful members of the audience waiting to hear Bush speak. But before they got to hear Bush, they were expelled from the rally by Bush rally staff who objected to the words printed on the T-shirts they were wearing.

No, the words on the T-shirts the ladies were wearing did not disparage Bush, nor did they suggest support for Kerry or any other candidate. The words did not condemn or support the war in Iraq, nor did they slam any Administration policy. No, the T-shirts the three women wore showed an American flag, and under it the words, "Protect Our Civil Liberties". That was all -- I kid you not.

That was it. That was the last straw for me. That was the defining moment I'll never forget. That was my epiphany.

Bryan Platt, Chairman of the Jackson County Republican Central Committee, said he stood 100 percent behind the person who made the decision to exclude the women, removing any doubt that one or two individuals exceeded their authority and blew it. No, it was solid, Republican neo-conservative fascist policy on open display, and the Brown Shirts weren't about to apologize for it. No way.

I am now a man without a political party. I will never again register as a Republican unless the party returns to what it was before the fascists took it over. I'm certainly not a Democrat or a liberal, but I might just register as a Democrat to help them avoid mistakes in the next primary, like running another John Kerry for president. Any moderate, pro-gun southern Democrat would have easily swept Bush aside this election. As it is, the race is so close it could go either way at this point.

My decision to vote for Kerry was a vote to get Bush and his administration out. I could have voted for a third party candidate who couldn't possibly win, but that would have translated into a vote for Bush, and I just couldn't do that. Too many kids in uniform have already been killed and maimed for nothing, and I see it as my primary duty to save as many of them as I can. If my vote for a third party candidate means Bush wins and more kids come home dead and mutilated, then I have abrogated my duty as an American, as a Christian and as a decent human being. I didn't know better during the Vietnam War, when I voted for Nixon twice, but I would be without excuse if I did it again now.

This election is different: In this election, we all have to answer the call to vote wisely. Lives depend on it, and God is watching how we vote as well. When an individual sins, God deals with him individually. When a whole nation sins, God deals with the nation nationally. It's right there in the Bible.

The way I see it, the threat Bush presents is just too great. I know what Bush did with his first four years on good behavior, and so do you. What scares the bejeebers out of me is what Bush would do with four more years with nothing to lose -- and an assumed mandate from the people for what he did the first four. At least a Kerry Administration would be strapped down by a Republican Congress, so I'm not too worried about major gun control bills being passed, and as far as abortion is concerned, it really doesn't matter what a president believes, because that issue is decided only by the Judiciary Branch now.

Regardless of the proclaimed Bush position on abortion, he never issued an executive order banning any form of abortion because he knew such an order would be overturned by the courts. Oh, and that phony Late-Term Abortion Ban Bush signed? It's as good as dead -- and I have a niggling feeling it was intended to be killed even as they wrote it. The lower Federal Courts are already finding it unconstitutional, and why?, because the people who authored it left no possibility for a woman to use late term abortion to save her life, let alone to preserve her health. In lieu of that provision, any first year law student knew the federal courts would overturn it, so why did seasoned lawyers/legislators write it that way? Don't even try to convince me they overlooked something as obvious as that.

I still believe this election is going to Kerry, no matter what the polls predict. Last time, it was so close the Supreme Court had to decide the outcome. This time, a huge number of former Bush Republicans like me have bolted to Kerry. Unless a large number of former Gore supporters are going to vote for Bush this time, I don't see how Bush can get re-elected. Add to that the massive numbers of young voters who are registered to vote for the first time under threat of a draft, and I see Bush being shown the door by more than a close vote. But we'll see...

What I do know is that any party that would find the words, "Protect Our Civil Liberties" offensive or even threatening, is a party I won't belong to anymore.

That was the last straw.

Carl F. Worden

By cheryl mi on Monday, November 1, 2004 - 02:52 pm:

Dave--Colorado, well done!!You hit alot of facts. Might I add that I believe that if the TRUE facts were known it would reveal that his Bush's father kept him out of the draft & made sure he would be in a unit that had no chance of serving anywhere close to Southeast Asia. Fast forward a young George W. into today's armed forces to where the majority of our guard & reserve units are stationed; you would not see him. Watching him fly in & land on a aircraft carrier reminded me of John Wayne & Frank Sinatra. You couldn't get them in a uniform before WWII but couldn't get them out of uniforms in their movies after the war. If Bush were to have a voluntary army, you sure wouldn't see him there but you would see Kerry because he's served in a war. Georgie never did. And it must be real nice to be Mr. Perfect with never making any mistakes or at least admitting that he may have. This administration has been the most secretive & deceptive one there has been.You never hear anything from or about Colin Powell either. Do you think maybe he's being put in the background for some reason? He's a very smart man, I wonder if he regrets ever taking part in this administration. You didn't hear anything from Cheney for a very long, long time & now you see him & all he spouts is lies. After the election you'll not hear from him again either. He may go back to his Hilliburton(spelt wrong) & milk our government out of all the money he can get AGAIN!!

By Dave - Colorado on Monday, November 1, 2004 - 02:55 pm:

If you do not approve of abortion, then feel free not to have one. But nobody has the right to interfere with someone else's choice. What you are suggesting is the same as me saying that maybe Catholics shouldn't have the right to vote!

By gimme a break on Monday, November 1, 2004 - 02:58 pm:

There is so much that could be said about Mels comments. Its so sad to think you actually would compare a child to a tick. I could open so many other conversation doors, but really, a tick?

By finlander, painesdale on Monday, November 1, 2004 - 03:02 pm:

Dave, lots of text there but nothing really said, just like Kerry in the debates, lots of facts and figures and big words but when you break it down, nothing of substance (that is true anyway).
Nate, well said, why does no one want to be responsible for their actions and face the consequences? This utopian world Kerry promises he will not be able to deliver on, but the sheep will follow (paraplegics rising out of their wheelchairs and walking? Government healthcare of the same quality without raising taxes? 10 million jobs created as if he has a magic wand?) and once again be let down.
I am the portion of the middle class he is talking about, married, 4 kids, single income. Somehow I got a tax cut but that can't be possible because only the wealthy did? The tax bracket rates are the lowest they have been since the 30's and the middle class is getting the shaft? Doesn't add up in my book. Sovereignty is seeming to be fleeting from our country, and Bush wants to hold on to what is left and strengthen it. The terrorist hate us more since Bush took over? The planning for 9/11 began 2 years before Bush took office. How could anyone hate us more than what happened on 9/11? Seems to me that is the ultimate sign of hatred.

By lugnutz on Monday, November 1, 2004 - 03:04 pm:


By young voter on Monday, November 1, 2004 - 03:07 pm:


I looked at the link you listed. So, what happened to Flight 77 then? I am confused. Was there a list of people that were supposed to be on the plane? I don't know what to think, but I always did wonder why there was not alot of news about the Pentagon like there was for the towers and the field. ANyway, makes you think, but I am not sure what I think really. Are they saying it was a military jet and a missle? Please help me out.

By Mel, Kansas on Monday, November 1, 2004 - 03:08 pm:

Gimme -

Yep, really. A tick. Living off of me, making me sick, without my permission. Now, if I could control when my eggs release, and when they fertilize, then a pregnancy can truly be called a choice. But since I can't - well, then I didn't choose to become pregnant. Chose to have sex, yes - but I didn't say 'okay egg - fertilize!' And since it happened without my permission, my husband and I (yes, a joint decision) made the choice to have the problem taken care of.

Am I callous about it? You bet I am. Can I look myself in the mirror and say 'I terminated the possiblity of a life for a child'? You bet I can. I can also say I made the right choice, I have no regrets, and I'd do it again if I had to. In order to hopefully prevent the need of that though, I've been on the pill since my abortion.

Feel free to address further conversation to my e-mail - that's why it's there.

By cheryl mi on Monday, November 1, 2004 - 03:10 pm:

I have to interject that when Bush came to Marquette,Michigan , people wearing shirts Kerry shirts were not allowed in. The one person I know that was wearing one would not have disrupted his speech or appearance. And I don't think the others would have either. So where is their 1st amendment rights there? They were entitled to their freedom of expression!!!

By think about it on Monday, November 1, 2004 - 03:10 pm:

This is how to get rid of an unwanted tick.

By nate on Monday, November 1, 2004 - 03:10 pm:

Dave you didn't answer my questions, I asked you 4 specific questions. Your comments about not allowing catholics to vote is not a good argument because its the same as the pro-life's argument that "since I think its ok to kill my child once I get it home from the hospital then that's my choice"

besides I think its quite ok for you to say that maybe Catholics shouldn't have the right to vote. Now if you took to physically stopping catholics from voting, then you would be violating a law designed to limit individual freedom for the greater freedom of society

By Nate on Monday, November 1, 2004 - 03:16 pm:


But what is the functional purpose of sex? It is a reproductive act. And yes you could have your tubes tied, or your husband could have a vasectemy ?sp? if you truely don't plan on having kids

By curious on Monday, November 1, 2004 - 03:20 pm:

I wonder if I killed the unwanted puppies that my dog was pregnant with, I mean because she clearly did not want to get pregnant by the neighborhood dog who jumped our fence, and had plans of just taking it easy as the years went by, I wonder if I would have aborted them, and someone found out, I wonder if I would be on th 6:00 news for cruelty to animals? Just wondering.

By yooper wannabe on Monday, November 1, 2004 - 03:21 pm:

EI..YI...YI! What possessed me to look at this page....ugggg! I am so glad this election is over (well the voting anyway or is it...hmmm....maybe they should just leave the vote open and available for a few weeks after 11-2....they sure started early enuf in some places...what the heck is that all about...I digress) tomorrow. Just get out and vote...let's see who we can put in there for the next four years...and watch them supposedly not be able to do anything right by the end of their four yrs!

By nate on Monday, November 1, 2004 - 03:23 pm:


if you were wearing a pro bush shirt you wouldn't have been allowed into a kerry ralley either. It's kind of like trying to wear shirts and blue jeans to a restraunt that requires a shirt and tie.

By Mel, Kansas on Monday, November 1, 2004 - 03:23 pm:

Nate -

It is also the method by which marriages are consummated. And something to do for enjoyment - stress relief, expression of love, a way to be close to your partner in a time of grief. Sex serves lots of functions. Reproduction is just one of many. And someday when it's feasible, I'll have surgery to make sure I'll never have kids - already thought about it plenty.

To Think about it -

Nice try. Can't scare me.

Oh - and lugnutz -

I have both, thanks. I never claimed to be stating facts either - just opinion. And if it's my opinion, then it is right to me. Not saying it has to be right to anyone else. But I don't want to see anyone's right to have a choice taken away, either.

By Dave - Colorado on Monday, November 1, 2004 - 03:23 pm:

You are entitled to your beliefs even though I do not agree with your point of view. My point is that you do not have the right to stop someone else from having their own beliefs. Catholics seem intent on forcing their beliefs on the rest of us. I object to this.

Young Voter:
I do not know where they are. I just saw that clip for the first time today. It seems to me that if an airplane slammed into the building, then the wings and tail would have sheared off outside the building. Did you notice any airplane related debris in the photos? I didn't. I fear that this might be another example of this admisistration lying to the nation in order to promote their secret adgenda. These guys are dangerous for us all.... regardless of their right-wing conservative anti-abortion views...

By sad on Monday, November 1, 2004 - 03:25 pm:


You can very closely estimate the time your egg in released. My friend does it every month as she has been trying for a long time to get pregnant. She tracks it and then has sex in hopes that the sperm will fertilize the egg and a life will begin.

I'm sorry that you are so hard hearted to really trick your brain into thinking its no big deal that you killed your child.

My sister lost her first baby, and just recently had her second child and he is healthy and beautiful and looks nothing like a tick.

Wether you beleive it or not, you will one day regret what you did.

By young voter on Monday, November 1, 2004 - 03:29 pm:

I wonder alot about stuff like that Dave. I think how much can we believe? How much is real? Was it a missle? Was it an airplane? I saw a bumper sticker once that said " I love my country and Fear my government."

By nate on Monday, November 1, 2004 - 03:29 pm:

unwanted Puppies and guns...

By think about it on Monday, November 1, 2004 - 03:31 pm:

Whats really cool to me is that even if the baby was aborted, and tossed in a garbage is now alive and well and safe in heaven. I'll get to meet your child someday Mel, I'll tell him or her that you said Hello.

By Dave - Colorado on Monday, November 1, 2004 - 03:36 pm:

Feel free to do a google search and look up the articles written by Wolfowitz about his vision for America's policy in the middle east, and the ones about Prescott Bush and his Nazi affiliations, and Karl Rove and his Nazi affiliations, and Arnold Schwarzneggar and his fathers collaboration with the Nazis. You can choose to ignore all this information and continue to hide your head in a very dark place, but I fear that if more Americans do not begin to think for themselves (and stop believing this Republican fear-based, hate mongering B.S.) Then we are all going to awaken one day and wonder "Gee, what happened to America the home of the free"? FYI... I used to be Republican...

By nate on Monday, November 1, 2004 - 03:39 pm:


You are not listing the true biological purpose of sex. You are listing purposes we attached to it. There are other ways for stress relief,enjoyment, and to express your love.

When we don't attach our human emotions and desires to it, the basic purpose of sex is reproduction.

And why isn't it fesable to get that operation now? It sounds like you are financially able to do such a thing. The only thing that would prevent me would be uncertantity about what I really wanted.

Also, I am curious on the stats for women who have had abortions. How many become depressed and fight suicidal tendancies after an abortion? I don't know the answer to this question so any real beta would be appreciated.

By really sad on Monday, November 1, 2004 - 03:40 pm:

Well said, Sad. She will regret it someday. What if her mother decided to get rid of the "tick" inside her. I think, without Mel knowing it, having an abortion has turned her into a cold hearted person.

By right choice and happy on Monday, November 1, 2004 - 03:50 pm:

I had an abortion when I was very young. It was a very difficult thing to decide, but it was the right choice then and I have never regretted my decision. I am just thankful that the choice was available to me. The father was a controlling, mean-natured, abusive animal and nobody deserves to be treated like that.

By Mel, Kansas on Monday, November 1, 2004 - 03:53 pm:

Hey folks -

No regrets. Not even someday. That's kind of the whole point. If my mother had decided to abort me, then I wouldn't know, would I? I wouldn't have any hard feelings about it at all - believe me, I've thought about it. What I was saying earlier about teenage depression, I meant. I honestly spent quite a bit of time wishing that I hadn't been born.

I don't know that I'd call myself cold hearted either. I'm honest with myself. We knew we couldn't support a child, so we didn't have it. It's making a choice based on the facts, and doing the right thing for those involved at the time.

I'm not saying that everyone has to agree with me. Just that the choice must remain open for those who need it.

No one can make me feel guilty about it. The same goes for many other women out there - women who firmly believe that they made the right choice for them. I am where I am today because of the choices I have made. You are what you make of yourself. This is true for every single person out there.

By sad on Monday, November 1, 2004 - 03:56 pm:

Anytime someone makes a decision, they have to then fight for the justification of it. We do not want to ever admit we could have been wrong. If I voted this way or that, I stand up for it and argue for it, if I am a certain religion, I do the same. No-one likes to say "Well, I did do that, however I was wrong." What we do defines who we are. If we then own up to it being wrong, what will people think of us? How many times have you known you were wrong, but talked yourself into it being right because you did it? We are all very proud people.
I am a Christian, and strongly believe the Bible. Do I obey all of it perfectly, of course not, but because I believe it, I know what it says about certain things. Abortion is wrong in Gods eyes, and so it is in mine. The Bible also talks about a life after death, and giving an account of what we do here. In order to get forgiveness, we first have to admit that we did something wrong in the first place. Me included. So, just because we don't like to admit we are wrong, doesn't mean we aren't. You can argue till you are blue in the face, but ultimately we will all give account to God, whether you believe in Him or not.

By young voter on Monday, November 1, 2004 - 04:03 pm:

I think that morals are a big issue in the voting decision. The last several posts show that don't ya think?

By Dave D., MI on Monday, November 1, 2004 - 04:07 pm:

While browsing through the earlier messages regarding signing a loyalty oath, I felt I should relay what happened in Traverse City when Bush came here in Aug. Read the articles for yourself, but note that this rally was held on city public property, and the woman had a valid ticket to gain entry to the rally.

Regarding who pays for these campaign visits:

Think how this impacts law enforcement that's already heavily hit by rising gas prices that weren't budgeted for. I'd love to see how much of our tax dollars are going to supporting either campaign vs. what the two major parties actually fund.

By Dr. Nat in Nevada on Monday, November 1, 2004 - 04:12 pm:

Joe Finn:
Here's the answer about oil shale. Sorry it's taken a while for me to respond. It's a busy day at the university and I had to find which conversation your question was posted in and then wade through all the political rhetoric to find it.
Oil shale is a rock that contains lots of organics in the form of kerogen. To be converted into an oil-like substance, it must be heated and processed. There are two ways of extracting oil from oil shales. The shale can be fractured in situ, heated by pumping hot fluids/gasses into the ground, then pumping the oil from wells just like we extract conventional petroleum from the ground. The other way to extract the oil is to mine the oil shale then heat it to extract the oil. This heating process alone uses a lot of water and energy (the temperature the shale is heated to is around 450 or 500 degrees celsius).
The process to make oil shale useful is not over yet. The oil from oil shale cannot be used as a direct substitute for conventional oil. Oil shale oil has less carbon and hydrogen and more nitrogen and oxygen (and sometimes sulphur) than normal oil. Hydrogen must be added during processing and some of the nitrogen and oxygen must be removed to avoid large emissions of sulphur and nitrogen gasses.
Now, finally, we can send the oil from the oil shale to the refineries to make gasoline and all the petroleum products we use every day.
The bottom line is that it is still too expensive to utilize oil shales for petroleum products. The price of oil needs to rise even more before oil shales will become economic or we need to develop more efficient technology to process the oil shales.
I hope this answers your question. I have a couple of days worth of lecture notes on oil shales that I tried to boil down into this short posting. If you have any other questions, feel free to ask.

Have a great day everyone! Get out and vote wisely tomorrow. Ignore all the rhetoric and all the things that are said in order to tug at your heartstrings and make you lose sight of the real issues at hand. Educate yourself about the candidates and the issues and vote intelligently and follow your conscience. Above all, be nice to each other. Remember, despite all the labels and appellations we are calling each other, we are all Americans. Being an American should be more important than being a republican or democrat, liberal or conservative. Voltaire once said, "I disapprove of what you say, but will defend to the death your right to say it." He might not have been an American, but his words clearly express what the Constitution is about, and what makes America great. We are all allowed the freedom to question our leaders, disagree, debate, and vote for who and what we think is best for our nation. We should celebrate that we are all free to have different ideas. It would be a dangerous nation if everyone blindly followed what their leaders had to say.

I will not say who I am voting for. That is my own personal decision that I have decided after educating myself about all the candidates and reflecting on what I think will be best for the nation I love. I will leave you all with one of my favorite quotes of Theodore Roosevelt: "To announce that there must be no criticism of the president, or that we are to stand by the president right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public."

By The Dam Guy, Parasite Creek on Monday, November 1, 2004 - 03:36 pm:

Sticking strictly to the photo subject of the day: I hope W. RAKES in the votes and LEAVES Mr. Kerry in freeFALL at the polls. Whatever your preference, y'all AUTUMN get out and vote on Tuesday... :) How'd I do?

By yooper wannabe on Monday, November 1, 2004 - 04:32 pm:

Of Course if you live in Traverse City we all know what a Liberal left wing rag of a newspaper the Record Eagle is. Granted...these things may have happened....but if the Record Eagle would be fair in all it's reporting...I might be inclined to take more interest in what they have to say about anything.

By sorry on Monday, November 1, 2004 - 04:35 pm:

How old are you Mel? You WILL regret it someday...I have a feeling

By Candy, CA on Monday, November 1, 2004 - 04:37 pm:

Hi, Hil, UP, MI, I spent most of my life in the Yoop with a few years away, but have been in the Sacramento area the past 4 years. I'm out in the woods, nearly in the foothills, with trees and lots of birds around. I love it here -- miss lots about the Yoop, but not the snow.

Dr. Nat, I love what you have to say. Too frequently, we lump the message in with the messenger and react angrily to something we may not agree with. I believe we all want the best for our country, and I have to believe that is the way those who are running for office feel as well. There is no right or wrong vote; it is YOUR choice, a small part of your civic dues. As long as it is cast thoughtfully, then it is correct.

By Hil, UP, MI on Monday, November 1, 2004 - 04:38 pm:

Portion of comments removed - AUP Policy - no personal attacks...

Dave, quote "no one has the right to interfere with someones choice" Well, there alot of things I would like to choose to do. Not pay my taxes, rob a bank, but I don't because it is wrong. Not just wrong to me, but to everyone. It's unfortunate that people don't know right from wrong. I hope you know right from wrong.

The soldiers in Iraq, enlisted in the military willingly.

By dab, FL on Monday, November 1, 2004 - 04:40 pm:

Nate have you actually seen the film Farenheit 911 or are you makig your statements from those provided by the Conservative Right... I work with several Conservatives who have voiced opinions similar to yours without having viewed the film. When I ask them how they can make such statements, The advise me that they do not have to view "garbage" to know its' content. Is this the case with you??

By observer on Monday, November 1, 2004 - 04:46 pm:

have a friend who got pregnant in high school.

had an abortion and now takes anti depressants and is obsessive and compulsive

you should have seen her at a co workers baby shower

she must have spent a fortune buying gifts for the baby as if to make up for the one she aborted

By concerened on Monday, November 1, 2004 - 04:52 pm:

Mel, Kansas

What I think is the saddest part of your story is not just that you had an abortion. Its the part where you say that it was like a parasite to you. Its one thing to abort a child because in your mind you were doing it a favor because you couldn't afford to take care of it. I know what you must have been feeling; I got pregnant at 18, and there was no way I could afford it either. But, in some way I can understand that feeling of "Oh man, I'm pregnant" I felt it too. However, I can't understand the anger and cold heartedness you express as you defend it. I would think you might just say, I did it, and it was best at the time, but certainly not lash out at a living thing that was yours and your partners. Please think about it, it was part of you, not just a parasite.

By you da man on Monday, November 1, 2004 - 04:52 pm:

Dam Guy, you did awesome!! Love it.

By Mel, Kansas on Monday, November 1, 2004 - 04:56 pm:

Hil -

Sometimes you have to do things for yourself. I do know right from wrong - but I also know that there are exceptions. None of you know the situation behind my choice, but you •••• me none the less. I spent the first 75% of my life (I'm 25, for the record) being selfless and never thinking of or for myself. If I believed that God was unforgiving, and that He never took situations into account, then I would live in fear. But the God that I know is forgiving, and loves me despite my faults. I make no claims to be faultless either - none of us is.

I live with myself easily - there are much worse things that I could do besides preventing an unwanted child from being born - like you said - not pay taxes, shoot people, rob a bank. Sometimes you have to value the quality of lives already in progress more than the possible ones.

By shelly on Monday, November 1, 2004 - 05:00 pm:

I have voted only once in my life and that was in 2000 and I knew who I wanted to vote for. I have to say I really am torn and I need to decide by tomorrow. I really don't want to vote for either, and seriously thought about not voting. I have so many questions, and have this feeling like what if I vote for so and so and they do this, for both Bush and Kerry. This is really tough and I think alot of people feel this way. I pay attention to the posts and to the news and the debates, and still am confused. I think I might just try eeny meeny miny mo? HA HA

By Dave - Colorado on Monday, November 1, 2004 - 05:03 pm:

Dr. Nat:
What a timely quote from President Theodore Roosevelt! Very well said.... but I think you may have tipped your hand just a wee bit...

By nate on Monday, November 1, 2004 - 05:09 pm:

Dave-- you never did answer the 4 questions I asked you. I am curious on your answers for those 4 questions.

Dab-- Yes I have seen Farenheit 911. I actually enjoy some of Moore's work. This film was just too onesided. He took too many liberties on issues that was familiar with to allow me to take the ones I wasn't familiar with seriously. I disregard this film the same way I would disregard a film on John Kerry written by Rush Limbaugh.

By Dave - Colorado on Monday, November 1, 2004 - 05:11 pm:

Not only is robbing a bank or not paying your taxes wrong, those actions are illegal... Abortion is legal as it should be. If you do not approve of abortion, then do not have one, but do not try to force your beliefs onto the rest of us. That is un-American.... and illegal!

By concerned on Monday, November 1, 2004 - 05:17 pm:


I think talking to a preacher would be good for you. God is forgiving, and will forgive if you admit you are wrong. Its called repentance. He does not take into account why, there is no excuse for sin. He will not say "OK, you couldn't afford it, so you killed it." Then he would have to tell Hitler, "OK, you didn't like them, and you had a bad life so all is forgiven".

I am not typing this with anger, just regular common sense. You can't justify it for your sin and say its not justified for anothers. We can't put God as a magic jeanie that only does what we command Him to do. Stay out of my decision making, but forgive me when I break one of your commandments. All I am saying is, you should have a little fear that you will have to answer Him as we all will someday. The Bible clearly states that if you confess your sins He will forgive, but you have to admit you were wrong, and ask Him to forgive you first. Thats the whole idea behind the cross. After you are forgiven, He forgets the sin. Its great. I challenge you to talk to a preacher about it if you have more questions. I don't know you, but I know that someday you will introspect on this and I hope you can find peace when you do. I was not always a Christian, and had views very similar to yours when I got pregnant. A lady I babysat for offered to pay for my abortion, and let me be her nanny. I just couldn't do it, and now my baby is a 15 year old wonder. I became a Christian years later, and have never been sorry. I won't post anymore about this, but Mel, I don't know if you care, but I will pray for you because I know what a hard decision it was for me back in 1988. God bless.

By Dave - Colorado on Monday, November 1, 2004 - 05:18 pm:

Your questions are irrevelant to the issue. You do not have the right to interfere with a woman's right to choice. This is not Nazi Germany (yet) and as long as we live in America we have the right to make our own choices regarding abortion. It is a good thing we have the Constitution to protect us from people who would take away our freedoms! What an arrogant bunch!

By votes for women on Monday, November 1, 2004 - 05:20 pm:


What if the baby is a woman? Does it have a choice?

By Dave... on Monday, November 1, 2004 - 05:26 pm:

I'm not a lawyer, but I suppose if the fetus was pregnant, and of legal age, it too could choose to have an abortion....

By Jim former Yooper stuck in Castorland, NY on Monday, November 1, 2004 - 05:27 pm:

Until the time comes that we demand our elected officials represent the people and not the special interests we will be voting for the lesser of two evils. In 1992 the Republicans took over Congress and promised to turn things around. What have they done? The Democrats were no better. Whose fault is it? Ours. We have settled for the mediocre, for small men with small purposes. It is no longer what is in the public interest. It is what will get me re-elected? In this country we should be able to come up with candidates for office who will lift us towards the democratic ideals that this country was founded upon. We should not settle for campaigns that are run like a segment of the Jerry Springer show. To this end, I think we should vote any incumbent out of office until both political parties wake up and start running candidates that will act in the interest of the American people not the corporate interests. Who will do what is right even when the polls say otherwise. A candidate who will tell the truth even when it's something that we may not want to hear. A candidate who will unite us, not divide us. A candidate who will inspire us towards the higher ideals of humanity, not one who will have us settle for the lowest common denominator. As a country we have consistently tried to make the world a better place for our children. Somehow we have lost that and it is our duty to once again make our political parties strive to achieve the best for all the people. To that end I urge everyone to go to the polls and cast your vote according to your conscience.

By a thought on Monday, November 1, 2004 - 05:33 pm:

Our society has "made up" the idea that having an abortion is "bad".....We as a human race are much smaller than we think.

By don't get it on Monday, November 1, 2004 - 05:34 pm:

Ahhh, but we'll never know Dave, because it will never ever get the chance to get pregnant and then have an abortion. I wonder why its Ok to kill a baby at 36 weeks, but if it was born naturally and then I killed it it would be illegal?

See, its not just about rights. Really. Its about life. My goodness people, its a life. A soul, a chance to be something. Choices are more like "Where will I live"? "Who will I vote for"? >Will I get married? Can I have a hand gun? Not, can I kill a baby because I dont' want it? Give it up for adoption. Thousands of people want children and can't have them and we say its legal to kill a child because its our right?

By sick on Monday, November 1, 2004 - 05:36 pm:

The easy thing is just don't think about it. Just keep telling yourself, It was my right. That will make it all better.

By Mel, Kansas on Monday, November 1, 2004 - 05:37 pm:

Concerned -

Thank you for your thoughts, I appreciate your kindness. I know that God needs repentence - we've talked about it. :)

Our lives are made of the decisions we make, and also of those that we don't. I won't hide from my decisions - which is why you all know what you know about me today. If I tried to say 'it never happened', then maybe it would have not been the right decision. But I know it did - and what does not kill us only makes us stronger.

Seriously though - thanks to everyone for your thoughts and concerns, for your opinions and suggestions. I think this has been a good discussion, and I'm sorry if I have come across as cold-hearted and uncaring. If I didn't care about any of this, none of you would have heard from me today. I know that my decision helped get me to where I am today - a very positive place in my life.

I'd like to thank Nate and Candy for their e-mail messages as well.

Whoever your vote is for, be sure to cast it tomorrow! May *somebody* win.

By shelly on Monday, November 1, 2004 - 05:39 pm:

Can I change the topic? I really find this debate thought provoking, but I wanted to ask what you all thought about how long before another terrorist attack?

People at work have different ideas.

By Drew, MN on Monday, November 1, 2004 - 05:46 pm:

Of course it depends on who will win the election on might argue...

By Dave on Monday, November 1, 2004 - 05:48 pm:

Ahhh, but abortions at 36 weeks are only allowed in cases where it is necessary to save the life of the mother. This seems right to me as does stem cell research. Early term abortions affect fetuses that are not viable outside the mother. The mother has the right to decide if she wants to be pregnant. That seems right to me also.

Adoption is legal too. Many women choose adogption instead of abortion. That is their right as it should be.

You seem so vitally concerned about the sanctity of life. Yet here we are with an administration that claims to be pro-life out of one side of their mouth, but has killed tens of thousands of innocent women and babies in the pursuit of a few terrorists? So they are only pro-life when it suits their agenda? I think we need to reassess the integrity of our leadereship.

By shelly on Monday, November 1, 2004 - 05:48 pm:

The reason I ask this strange question is because people are talking about it here, not just a work, but at church and some of my other friends. When I asked my brother who lives in the Lansing area, he didn't really have any thoughts on it. I know several people who have plans in case there is a major attack in Houston. I am curious to see if anyone else thinks such things in other areas.

By Fair and Balanced on Monday, November 1, 2004 - 05:50 pm:

So you've seen the "documentary" film Farenheit 9/11? (Documentary? My left foot! - Pure malicious political propaganda, nothing less.) For a change of pace, and another perspective, be sure to check out FahrenHYPE 9/11.

By get up! stand up! on Monday, November 1, 2004 - 05:55 pm:

there is a terrorist attack ocurring somewhere every 5 seconds.....or are we talking about the most important terrorist attack of them all?

One World! Different Peoples! Peace!

By shelly on Monday, November 1, 2004 - 05:55 pm:

Well, I have to go, but I'll check back on this post in the morning to see what y'all said about my question. And it really is just a question, not to get anyone ticked off. I'm just curious about other peoples thoughts on this. I guess I should have been a news reporter, ha ha ha. My Mom always told me I asked too many questions, but I did learn alot from them.

Good night all.

By Drew, MN on Monday, November 1, 2004 - 05:57 pm:

The documentary (albeit partisan I grant you) Stolen Honor makes a very good point. The Vets in this film truly believe they were wronged by John Kerry. It's worth a look, check it out at

By Dave - on Monday, November 1, 2004 - 06:00 pm:

This link paints a grim picture regarding how safe we really are or more accurately, aren't. It seems that Bush has been chasing the wrong rabbit.

By Pete - Mud Lake on Monday, November 1, 2004 - 06:07 pm:

As your someone who believes in free choice for legal activities, I`d be curious to know where you stand on the issue of gun control.

By Dave on Monday, November 1, 2004 - 06:07 pm:

Drew that looks the "documentary" done by Rush Limbaugh?? Consider it for what it is... rubbish.

By Dave on Monday, November 1, 2004 - 06:10 pm:

I'm pro choice on guns too, including assault weapons, and hammers, and bricks and whatever else it takes to defend our freedom.

By think about it on Monday, November 1, 2004 - 06:16 pm:

Well, Dave-

Good debating. I enjoyed the heated challenge. Whats really nice is that even though you can be wrong, you still have freedom of speech. Man or Woman. See ya at the polls!

By Drew, MN on Monday, November 1, 2004 - 06:19 pm:

Dave, I believe that you are mistaken about the films origins. Please correct me if I'm wrong. Even if it was made by Rush isn't he the right's equivalent of your Mike Moore? I will hold you to the same standard that you and your liberal buddies hold those who criticize F911 to. Watch it first and then comment. It's a good story that's all I'm saying.

By Pete on Monday, November 1, 2004 - 06:21 pm:

If what you say is true I commend you.
Most liberals I talk to expect THEIR rights to be respected
But have no regards for the rights of people they disagree with on issues such as gun control.

By Dave on Monday, November 1, 2004 - 06:37 pm:

I was making a joke in reference to someones comment above regarding Michael Moore. I do not think Rush made that piece. And Michael Moore certinly is not MY guy... I live in the middle - not too far to either the left or right. But I believe strongly in the freedoms we have under the Constitution and I object to anyone who attempts to take our freedoms away... especially when it is veiled in the name of "patriotism" or "Gods Word". Too many people see something like that and believe that it is true. The fact is it is someones spin to try to sway others. Don't be so gullible.

and Think about it: isn't self-rightousness a wonderful thing... too bad it is comes across so darned judgemental, otherwise it would be so empowering to impose my views on others just because I am so sure I am right... and no, I won't be at the polls tomorrow, I voted a month ago...

By Political humor? on Monday, November 1, 2004 - 06:38 pm:

Poor John Kerry ...
He throws away someone else's medals.
He drives someone else's SUV.
He marries someone else's wife.
He inherits someone else's money.
I think we should all vote for him to go be president of someone else's country.

By Dave on Monday, November 1, 2004 - 06:42 pm:

About the only "liberal" belief I have is freedom of choice. I am fiscally conservative, pro gun ownership, and I support a strong military. My problem with this administration is that I do not like to be lied to. As I said above, I strongly object to any attemps to take away our freedom and protections provided under the Constitiution. These guys really scare me.

By J, MI on Monday, November 1, 2004 - 06:44 pm:

Pray. Children considered parasites....ticks?! Pray. This country is in some serious trouble. Pray. It's all about me, me, me, and my rights. What a sad nation we are becoming. It really scares me. I for one am very nervous about the outcome of this election. Wow. Please everyone, pray we make the right choice tomorrow.

By Dr. Nat in Nevada on Monday, November 1, 2004 - 06:47 pm:

Dave - Colorado:
Maybe I tipped my hand, but, then again, I did quote a republican president ;)

Most people know me as a scientist, but I am also a student of history, particularly American History. Even though my formal education ended a time ago, I still consider myself a student as learning should never end. In any case, another quote I have collected in my readings:
"Many have quarreled about religion that never practiced it." -- Benjamin Franklin
I don't want anyone to be offended by it, but it is a statement worth pondering.

Have a great evening everyone!

By Libertarian voter on Monday, November 1, 2004 - 06:56 pm:

Worry not. Remember that whom ever we elect tomorrow they will be in the public eye, where we can keep an eye on them, and not in the private sector, where they could do a world of harm.

By Bush in the Bush on Monday, November 1, 2004 - 07:00 pm:

Vote Bush

By Dave on Monday, November 1, 2004 - 07:04 pm:

Dr. Nat:
Republican or not, Roosevelt was an American and he seemed to understand what our forefathers intended when they drafted the Constitution and why those unalienable rights are so vital to a successful democracy. An "elected" president who feels he is above question is acting like a dicator. And when he moves to enact laws that enable him to imprison anyone who questions him as a "terrorist" he is just plain dangerous.

Good evening...

By Right Wing Pasty Eater, MI on Monday, November 1, 2004 - 07:10 pm:

I am amazed the Democrats decided to nominate two extreme left wing liberals in back to back presidential elections. Al Gore was against the internal combustion engine and would have killed what's left of the Big Three and Kerry has THE most liberal voting record of anyone in the Senate, even more liberal than the borderline communist and Chappaquiddick survivor Teddy Kennedy.

They should have endorsed a less extreme candidate because these east coast liberals do not go over very well in the bread basket portions of the country any more.

One last tidbit. I recently read an article in that stated that the professional bookies have only been wrong once in the past 150 years in predicting U.S. Presidential elections! The last time the professional gambling bookies were wrong was in 1916. The bookies have been steadfast and unwavering in this campaign giving odds that Bush will win this one. Don't believe me, check and notice that even European oddsmakers that probably hate Bush are still forecasting he will win.

If you're an apologist, criminal lover, bleeding heart, have a rubber backbone on national defense and like the idea of high taxes and a socialized government, you will probably have to wait four more years before you have another shot at having a donkey in the white house.

I think the opening line to Kerry in Bush's acceptance speech should be "John Kerry, why the LONG face?" But then again, he would probably get sued by the left-wing, Democratic funded "Society for Citizens with Long Faces" and have to sell his Texas Ranch.

By Drew, MN on Monday, November 1, 2004 - 07:14 pm:

I object to the "gullible" comment. I am by no means such. I've done a lot of research on this eletion and have followed closely both candidates campaigns. My vote will be based on this and not on the word of a documentary. The point I tried to make and you obviously missed is that it's a story worth hearing. As is F911. To make an informed descion one must hear all sides of the story.
By the way, who lied to you and about what?

By SHN, Littleton CO on Monday, November 1, 2004 - 07:25 pm:

We live in an amazing country don't we? We have the right to make a CHOICE!!! I can't imagine what it would be like without it. Our voting tomorrow is a small matter(stay with me) to our Sovereign God. We live in a fallen world (Adam & Eve) and there has to be a price paid for sin. God made us with a free will to CHOOSE the gift of His Son's death on the cross for us. Why, because He wants our hearts, our love freely given. He could have made us robots but instead He made us with hearts to make CHOICES. We have freedoms in this country I believe He does not honor...abortion being one of them. The Bible is very clear about consequences for our decisions. What He says is sin. Repentance reaches His heart. His grace is immeasurable, His mercy astounding. The joy in doing things His way is peace. We will stand before Him one day with hardened hearts or repentant's our CHOICE. Being legally free to have an abortion doesn't make it right. Our country began a ride down a very slippery slope when we put aside His plan for our lives as is stated in the Bible...see Genesis through Revelations. Our founding fathers had so many things right when they set out to birth a new nation....we the people have CHOSEN so many times to go on a path that does not take responsibility for it's action. God deeply loves us and will never stop seeking us out.
Why did I say "a small matter"...because if we vote one way or the other He is still Sovereign. He has eternity in we?? Yes I think this vote, the freedom to do so is very important BUT eternity, our walk with God is sooo much bigger. We can't just believe the part of the Bible, God's Word, that makes us feel good. Remember, eternity means forever...with Him or apart from Him. The CHOICE is ours. Freely given by our Creator. I'm not perfect, made many a bad CHOICE in my life...His mercy and grace constantly reaches out to me to walk more closely to more in love with Him than this world. I guess you could call me a heart longs to be obedient to Him. I can still be a royal screw up. I'm not perfect, just redeemed...with a very high price paid in my behalf.
Man's plan and God's plan....our Choice...with eternal values in view....give it consideration. Pray about your vote and for the man who sits in office come January. Our country deserves no less from us. Gooooo VOTE everybody and be thankful you can. The war on terrorism isn't goin away. It is going to have to be fought on many fronts no matter whose in office. We need God to intervene in every aspect of gov't, every branch of gov't so we can be a country blessed by God.
God Bless this amazing country...
Sally (Hocking) Nelson
P.S. I had intended to jump in the fray but where would I begin. This eternity thing is sooo much more important don't you think? Not that there were'nt some interesting points made....Hope this makes the cut as I forgot to read the new policy...sorry Charlie....

By Right Wing Pasty Eater, MI on Monday, November 1, 2004 - 07:43 pm:

Let's face it, Bush is no Ronald Reagan. He doesn't seem as smart or as articulate. Kerry is smart, but not as smart as Clinton, Roosevelt, Truman or Kennedy. He's more smooth than smart. Smooth like a Ivy League used car salesman. I really see this as a case of the lesser or two marginal candidates. I am voting for Bush not because I like the man so much, it's just that this country is starting to go the way of the Roman Empire and more recently, England. We have no more World War Two era grit, pride and personal responsibility and stick-to-it-ivness.

England used to be a grand nation and well respected in many ways. Their best export in the past 40 years was the Beatles. They recently banned gun ownership and guess what? Their violent crime rate has skyrocketed. The NRA claim that "If you ban guns, only criminals will have guns" has come true. We don't need to experiment with that madness over here, all we need to do is use England as our willing guinea pig for all of their left wing policies. Kerry's comments that he is pro-gun are cancelled out by his voting actions: He voted against legislation that would limit liability in lawsuits against gun manufacturers. In other words, he is in the liberal camp believing that guns kill people as opposed to people killing people.

I have no doubt that Kerry is of the mindset of the person who sued McDonald's after burning their thighs with hot coffee. The single biggest beef I have with liberals is their basic idea of "It's not my fault, it's society's fault." Or, "It not my fault I burned my lap, it must be McDonald's fault." Liberals do not believe in personal responsibility or accountability. Kerry is THE most liberal person in the Senate, so you can't accuse me of overemphasizing the "L" word here.

People who think like this are multiplying at an epidemic rate in this country and we are going to become an also-ran country like England if we keep it up. I was in Europe twice in the past two years, and they think we are pretty silly with all of our frivolous lawsuits. Well, frivolous lawsuits are associated with the liberals to the same degree guns are associated with Republicans.

So, don't vote Bush, vote "Republican."

By A loyal reader....Former Yooper on Monday, November 1, 2004 - 08:29 pm:

I'm confused...

If you figure this out please let me know.... I’m trying to get all this political stuff straightened out in my head so I'll know how to vote come November. Right now, we have one guy saying one thing. Then the other guy says something else. Who to believe?
Lemme see; have I got this straight?

Clinton awards Halliburton no-bid contract in Yugoslavia - good...Bush awards Halliburton no-bid contract in Iraq - bad...

Clinton spends 77 billion on war in Serbia - good...Bush spends 87 billion in Iraq - bad...

Clinton imposes regime change in Serbia - good...Bush imposes regime change in Iraq - bad...

Clinton bombs Christian Serbs on behalf of Muslim Albanian terrorists- good... Bush liberates 25 million from a genocidal dictator - bad...

Clinton bombs Chinese embassy - good...Bush bombs terrorist camps - bad...

Clinton commits felonies while in office - good...Bush lands on aircraft carrier in jumpsuit - bad...

No mass graves found in Serbia - good...No WMD found Iraq - bad...

Stock market crashes in 2000 under Clinton - good...Economy on upswing under Bush - bad...

Clinton refuses to take custody of Bin Laden - good...World Trade Centers fall under Bush - bad...

Clinton says Saddam has nukes - good...Bush says Saddam has nukes - bad...

Clinton calls for regime change in Iraq - good...Bush imposes regime change in Iraq - bad...

Terrorist training in Afghanistan under Clinton - good...Bush destroys training camps in Afghanistan - bad...

Milosevic not yet convicted - good...Saddam turned over for trial - bad...Ahh, it's so confusing!

Every year an independent tax watchdog group analyzes the average tax burden on Americans, and then calculates the "Tax Freedom Day". This is the day after which the money you earn goes to you, not the government. This year, tax freedom day was April 11th. That's the earliest it has been since 1991. Its latest day ever was May 2nd, which occurred in 2000. Notice anything special about those dates?

Recently, John Kerry gave a speech in which he claimed Americans are actually paying more taxes under Bush, despite the tax cuts. He gave no explanation and provided no data for this claim.

Another interesting fact: Both George Bush and John Kerry are wealthy men. Bush owns only one home, his ranch in Texas. Kerry owns four mansions, all worth several million dollars. (His ski resort home in Idaho is an old barn brought over from Europe in pieces. Not your average A-frame).

Bush paid $250,000 in taxes this year; Kerry paid $90,000. Does that sound right? The man who wants to raise your taxes obviously has figured out a way to avoid paying his own.

By can wait til weds on Monday, November 1, 2004 - 08:30 pm:


By Nate on Monday, November 1, 2004 - 08:36 pm:

Dave, my 4 questions are very relevant to the issue. Because if someday someone were to prove without a doubt that the lifeform inside the womb is a human life with human rights, then abortion would be looked at in a different light. I am not arrogant at all. In fact I am one of the more humble people you'll meet.

But the issue is this: 1) a womans right to choose to terminate her pregnancy vs. 2)the act of terminating a pregnancy resulting in the death of a human life.

For you to say the only part of the issue is the woman's right to choose is disregarding completely the Pro Life's biggest contention with a woman's right to choose. Pro Life isn't anti abortion because it wants to step on women's rights. It is anti-abortion because the pro-life stance views abortion as legal murder.

You can't prove that whatever is inside the womb is not a human being. I can't prove that it is. We have to decide which side should we err on. If you're wrong, then 1.7 million babies are murdered every year. If I'm wrong then 1.7 babies are born every year to the perils of our world. One is worse than the other, the question is which one?

I believe that not being willing to answer my questions and dismissing them as irrelavant is completely arrogant and you calling me arrogant is event more arrogant. I've answered all of your questions haven't I?

Remember at one time it was legal to own slaves. But did that make it right? Don't be so close minded on this issue. Robbing a bank is wrong and illegal. Murder is wrong and illegal. Abortion is legal, but the last gallup poll I saw on abortion showed that 53% of americans thought it was wrong. Surprsingly 72% of Teens think Abortion is wrong. In fact the woman who made abortion legal is now Pro-Life.

Laws don't make things right or wrong. They define the boundaries for acceptable behavior in society. In the past we have discovered that some laws we followed were morally wrong, and I have no doubt that we will find more in the future.

When we were debating slavery I am sure that folks said "You're interfering with our rights to own slaves! That is un-american!" But some folks decided slavery is wrong. It was legal, but it was wrong.

By Fellow travelers? on Monday, November 1, 2004 - 08:47 pm:

If you're contemplating an "anti-Bush" vote, consider that would put you in the company of several other Kerry supporters, such as ... (click the link ->) CPUSA.

Does that give you pause?

By cheryl mi on Monday, November 1, 2004 - 08:49 pm:

Does anyone know whatever happened to the "other' brother of George W. Bush? Did he fall off the face of the earth? We all know where Jeb is but we NEVER hear where that brother that was involved in the banking scam is. Is he being hid by his brother because he doesn't want us to be reminded of how crooked the Bush family can be? Isn't it something how everyone has forgotten about him? In fact I can't reemember his name. Does anyone else remember him?

By Right Wing Pasty Eater, MI on Monday, November 1, 2004 - 08:53 pm:

Another thing to consider when watching the news is that surveys indicate that 85% of journalists vote for democrats. That alone should make more people suspicious of what they watch on TV or read in the papers. It is simply impossible to be balanced when 85% of journalists are voting for the libs. 50/50 is hard to achieve, but you can't even take network programming seriously with the current situation.

Another embarrasing fact on democrats: They have a reputation of not voting during inclement weather! I don't know how else this can be translated other than "Democrats are the party of the slackers and the lazy." Or "Choosy slackers choose Democrats." That's a real damning endorsement. I realize there are successful people with good jobs and intact families that vote for the Democrats, but let's put this another way: What party do you think the following groups of people vote for?

1) High school dropouts
2) Prison inmates (if they could vote)
3) Ambulance chasing trial attorneys
4) Drug addicts
5) Persons who have committed a capital offense wishing to avoid the death penalty
6) Terrorists
7) Welfare recipients

Remember this quote: "Whoever robs Peter to pay Paul can always depend on the support of Paul."

Peter is the man with the job and Paul is the parasite trying get by without working. The Democrats are the party most likely to tax Peter to subsidize slacker Paul.

By RGG on Monday, November 1, 2004 - 08:55 pm:

The Conservative POV you parrot here is the same as fellow conservatives Rush "send the housekeeper" Limbaugh, Bill "doesn't every woman own one" and William "wanna bet" Bennet.

All bastions of virtue

By K on Monday, November 1, 2004 - 08:59 pm:


By Jeff K on Monday, November 1, 2004 - 09:08 pm:

if you haven't seen it yet.......
Try the "This Land" feature !
Sure to bring a tear to both the Dem and Repub. eye !!

By Midwest Journalist on Monday, November 1, 2004 - 09:33 pm:

Mercy!!! I am a newspaper reporter who decided to check in on the new pasty forum and have spent an hour reading all the comments here. I can't state which way my presidential vote will be cast because of my job. I can only hope that a degree of sanity will return to America when the polls close at 8 p.m. tomorrow. This has been the dirtiest, most underhanded, rotten campaign that I have ever seen. Opinions are being slung like manure on cow barn cleaning day! In among all the nastiness are occasional truths but even they are becoming difficult to recognize. Time to put down the pitch forks and take a good long look at the mess this country is in. It didn't get there by itself AND it is not the fault of the media!

By Right Wing Pasty Eater, MI on Monday, November 1, 2004 - 09:53 pm:

Hey Midwest Journalist:

You're right, the mess and great divide in this country is not the fault of the media. It's just an occupational hazard that liberal types are drawn to creative professions, be it music, acting or journalism. I should know: I was a journalism major in college and play hippy dippy 1960's music on my guitars. I am amazed at how few conservatives can play a guitar well or write songs, or sing, or paint. I feel like a freak around conservative friends and acquantances.

That's why this "Rock the Vote" thing is so hopelessly lopsided in Kerry's favor because there are almost no quality Republican musicians. What's Bush to do, try to have Ted "Where's the Melody" Nugent go up against Paul McCartney, Glenn Frey, Simon and Garfunkel and Neil Young? That's pathetic and I'm very embarrassed as a Republican that there is virtually zero musical talent on Bush's side.

Hey, when you pull the lever for Kerry tomorrow, just be glad you have a lot of creative people in your profession.

By moi on Monday, November 1, 2004 - 10:00 pm:

But the media continually hypes the bad news, and not the good things that the soldiers DO see in Iraq. Of course it's not fun to be there, but the ones that come back are disgusted at how it's portrayed over here.

By Cat,MI on Monday, November 1, 2004 - 10:26 pm:

Question: Who pays the costs for Air Force One when it is carrying the President to campaign all over the country? A thought on a different idea: We have freedom of religion - when do we get freedom from religion?

By dave s wisc on Monday, November 1, 2004 - 11:04 pm:

a lot of the country singers are Bushbackers...
i agree there is no musical talent there :) ducks for cover ( i actually like country).

That AF1 flying on my dime really does bother me...supposedly the Bush campaign reimburses for those flights..I read that somewhere...or whomever is Prea...when it is used for "personal" flights....but the payback is much smaller than the actual cost.

By Kenny -Texas on Monday, November 1, 2004 - 11:16 pm:

Cat, MI
You have freedom from religion and freedom of religion.
Open your eyes.
Pasty eater-
Us conservatives may not make music but we can
enjoy listening to it. Some one has to buy it and as we work for a living instead of slack off for a living like your average lib, they should be more grateful to us.

By Hil, UP, MI on Monday, November 1, 2004 - 11:31 pm:

Well, it's been a great day here at We've had some great discussions! Have a great Nov. 2! Sorry if I hurt anyone's feelings today. I feel very passionately about my beliefs. Although I didn't change the world, I hope I made some thought provoking comments today like many of us did. Happy voting!


By Republican on Monday, November 1, 2004 - 11:45 pm:

Please tell me that Dave in Colorado doesn't actually believe the government is lying to us about a plane flying into the Pentagon. I know someone who was in Washington that day and SAW it happen! It was the plane.

By VT, Calumet on Tuesday, November 2, 2004 - 12:51 am:

So, who won this debate here? I think it looks like Bush.

By Betty, AZ on Tuesday, November 2, 2004 - 01:31 am:

SHN - Very well said. Nothing else to be said. You said it all. God is still on the throne and IN CONTROL!! We need to be in Prayer about the voting tomorrow. Everyone needs to get out and vote. And PRAY about who you are voting for.

By danbury on Tuesday, November 2, 2004 - 02:57 am:

Er, no. Religion has no business in government, and vice versa. Otherwise, one religion (the one the powers-that-are believe in) could dominate the rest, and that would violate the right of personal freedom concerning one's own personal religious beliefs. Other way round, only as long as one's religious beliefs don't affect hers/his (social) environment he/she has got the freedom to act accordingly. This refers to the city park fight exaggeration above, NOT to everyones right to publicly talk/ write about one's own beliefs.
With a president using his own religious beliefs, quoting the christian idea of god as motivation for his political decisions, the US are not "free of religion".
Doesn't say he would have to change his decisions. Only the reasoning his not fit for somebody who is to represent all people in his country no matter what their religion.
And I must say you people are weird. All this talk about abortion, and not a single soul comes up with the fact that there is a rather simple solution to abortion which is called contraception?
So, that would lead to more sex between people?
So what? It's neither sin nor crime! If counting days is ok, then is pill or rubber.
It's not murder either. The argument was put to me once that this way of preventing life to take it's course is just as wrong as abortion. While I admit to mixed feelings about abortion, what happens with the stuff if it's not used? It's taking care of by our own, male or female, bodies which, according to many pro-lifers, were made by God. How can this be wrong, then?
One thing that as far as I know is a fact: Texas, where Bush was governor and proposed abstinence as means of contraception has the highest percentage of teenage pregnacy. Seem's not to work to me.
On a sidenote: It's sad to see how eager some people are to tell other's they're going to be sorry. I trust that you're just concerned for your fellow creature, but according to your beliefs, it's not your right to judge, but His, and who're you to say what He's going to do?
And how many of you pro-lifers are vegetarian? Isn't that life too?

By Midwest Journalist on Tuesday, November 2, 2004 - 03:37 am:

Ah...Danbury speaks the truth in the midst of the manure!!! Congratulations on your approach to people attacking people in all these issues. Must tell you though that you should tread lightly here lest someone mistake you for a journalist who has a storehouse of musicians to support their chosen candidate!!! LOL By the way, I voted by absentee ballot several weeks ago since I never know where a story will take me on election day. I may be out covering rock musicians or a terrorist attack according to commments here! Keep your sense of honor, Danbury. Looks like you see things in a clear light.

By danbury on Tuesday, November 2, 2004 - 06:16 am:

Hang in there, Midwest Journalist, the days of your Bosses (your 09:33 post in mind) wiil come to an end, too.
Hey, I'm talking retirement here - what'd y'all think?!?

By Charlie at Pasty Central on Tuesday, November 2, 2004 - 06:36 am:

To give our moderators a break (so they can go out and vote), we would like to close this discussion and encourage you to go out and vote, too. Allow me to direct your attention to another topic where we welcome your feedback, a Discussion about the discussion.

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