Archive - Nov 07

Past-E-Mail: Various Topics: Politics and Religion, Ketchup or Gravy: Is Jesus Christ alive?: Archive - Nov 07

Betty Paull Colborn,AZ (Betty) on Monday, November 5, 2007 - 04:05 am:

I don't know who is asking the question if Jesus Christ is alive, but I will answer. He sure is! He is my Lord and I'm glad to admit it. He is the one that 'keeps me going' and without Him I could not do it. He gives me the peace I need.

By NIV (Bible) on Monday, November 5, 2007 - 04:54 am:

If you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved.

Romans 10:9-10

By maija in Commerce Township (Maija) on Monday, November 5, 2007 - 07:40 am:

Thank God the editors have moved this proselytizing to another page.

Glad you approve, hope you'll come back often

By Matt Karhu (Matt_k) on Monday, November 5, 2007 - 03:34 pm:

The greatest service that could be rendered to the proselytizers that post messages on the Pasty.Net pages would be to convert them to Christianity.

By Snowman (Snowman) on Monday, November 5, 2007 - 07:09 pm:

Amen Maija.

By David Soumis (Davesou) on Tuesday, November 6, 2007 - 11:54 pm:

you don't mean actually alive, like physically, but in your heart and mind?
cause I read he died for our sins...and hasn't come back yet.

I was raised Catholic, but the older I get, the less I believe in a god, or a supernatural being.
Call me agnostic. I have a real hard time envisoning someone that you have to get on your knees for, then demands our loyalty such as that...and you have to worship him forever...then professes to be all loving, but yet all the wickedness is occuring in the world.

Also, why does he shine on the USA and not the rest of the world? I've heard that statement a lot. Guess we're the chosen ones over here ?

By Michael Du Long (Mikie) on Wednesday, November 7, 2007 - 12:42 am:

I was in an accident in May of this year and if it hadn't been for a supreme being Precious and I would be pushing up daisys. That and having a car that stayed together and didn't colapse in the ensuing crash. Precious and I both believe in Jesus and though I am not a get down on my knees and pray type Christian I am fortunate enough to have been blessed this past May.

By Betty Paull Colborn,AZ (Betty) on Wednesday, November 7, 2007 - 01:23 am:

You sure were blessed Mikie. You had alot of prayers being said for you. Jesus still does do miracles and you and Precious are two of them. I am glad I have Him on my side.

By David Hiltunen (Davidcorrytontn) on Wednesday, November 7, 2007 - 02:54 pm:

Mikie DuLong; How did the vote turn out about the Nativity Scene in your home town?

By Michael Du Long (Mikie) on Wednesday, November 7, 2007 - 03:47 pm:

There will not be a Christmas here in Berkley this year, or from now on. It seems that my brother the famous Dr. John and his friends the ACLU have managed to destroy the hopes of many here in Whoville, I mean in Berkley. The Grinch who stole Berkleys Nativity Scene is indeed my brother. Even though I love him I am disapointed in his behavior.

By David Soumis (Davesou) on Wednesday, November 7, 2007 - 05:13 pm:

i do not mind seeing a nativity set or whatever, wherever, in fact, I like them...
HOWEVER, I do understand that by having any religious oriented statuary, signs, displays, etc, in a government place or area, is more than likely against the constitution as it gives the impression that the government is supporting that particular religion.

The thing to do then, is to have the nativity scene in a private place. Its just like some of the comments over in the politics thread...why have government dable in our religious affairs?

I actually think any religious oriented celebration be taken out of public schools as well. It may be not necessary if everyone in the school is of a particular religion or faith, but why should someone tha tis Jewish have to partake of a Christian ceremony or holiday. Perhaps the thing to do is do away with all religious based holidays...I mean where people get off work for Christmas, Easter, etc. I don;t believe there are any national days suich as Christmas for any other religion.

Granted, its such a fun time, all the color, the decorations, the parties, and all that, but it should be kept out of the government, out of the public schools, and out of the workplace.

By Michael Du Long (Mikie) on Wednesday, November 7, 2007 - 05:31 pm:

My problem Dave is with the fact that the ACLU made the decision for the city and the council went along with it. By the way show me where it says anywhere in the constitution that religion is banned in govt. it isn't in there it says that a state religion can't be instituted I am paraphrasing since I don't have the time to look up the exact words.

By Charlie at Pasty Central (Chopper) on Thursday, November 8, 2007 - 07:11 am:

I believe the exact words to which you refer are from the First Amendment of the Constitution:

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

Michael Du Long (Mikie) on Thursday, November 8, 2007 - 11:55 pm:

Thanks Charlie

By David Hiltunen (Davidcorrytontn) on Friday, November 9, 2007 - 11:37 pm:

Some Christians define "proselytism" more narrowly as the attempt to convert people from one Christian tradition to another; those who use the term in this way generally view the practice as illegitimate and in contrast to evangelism, which is converting non-Christians to Christianity

Are agnostics atheists?
No. An atheist, like a Christian, holds that we can know whether or not there is a God. The Christian holds that we can know there is a God; the atheist, that we can know there is not. The Agnostic suspends judgment, saying that there are not sufficient grounds either for affirmation or for denial. At the same time, an Agnostic may hold that the existence of God, though not impossible, is very improbable; he may even hold it so improbable that it is not worth considering in practice. In that case, he is not far removed from atheism. His attitude may be that which a careful philosopher would have towards the gods of ancient Greece. If I were asked to prove that Zeus and Poseidon and Hera and the rest of the Olympians do not exist, I should be at a loss to find conclusive arguments. An Agnostic may think the Christian God as improbable as the Olympians; in that case, he is, for practical purposes, at one with the atheists.

Since you deny `God's Law', what authority do you accept as a guide to conduct?

By David Soumis (Davesou) on Saturday, November 10, 2007 - 12:05 am:

my picture

is it not inherent in humans to be good?
Does there have to be a law for anyone but those that oppose the natural order of the goodness of man?
There does not need to be an authority to guide you, unless you require a stick to keep you in line, then the state steps in and provides the whip.

By k j (Kathiscc) on Saturday, November 10, 2007 - 06:46 am:

Call me agnostic.

By maija in Commerce Township (Maija) on Saturday, November 10, 2007 - 06:50 am:

holy moly! And what is that pic about!?

By David Soumis (Davesou) on Saturday, November 10, 2007 - 09:54 am:

that's my shock and awe look...should go in the politics thread too :)

By BJmilford (Bjmilford) on Saturday, November 10, 2007 - 12:01 pm:

The question was asked...."is it not inherent in humans to be good?"

Why then must we teach young children to be good.....but we never have to teach them to be bad?

By Tom Karjala (Tom) on Saturday, November 10, 2007 - 02:59 pm:

Good comment BJ. Must teach children right from wrong. Always has been the case.
Mark me down as an agnostic. If Jesus really lives then he should able to be seen by anyone. No god has ever been stteen----------why not?

By Deb S. (Usedtobeayooper) on Saturday, November 10, 2007 - 08:24 pm:

I believe in God. If the government is so against anything with religion, then why does our money say "In God We Trust"? And just because there are a few (and I do mean a few) children in school who do NOT believe in Christmas, why must the many suffer for it? We can no longer have a Christmas party or break, it is a winter party or break. Parents can't even go and enjoy a delightful Christmas concert put on by their little ones anymore. You know, the ones that brought parents to tears watching and listening to their little ones sing those touching songs. Why is it that most of you who say you do not believe in God, or are agnostic, say the words "OH MY GOD" when something happens to you? And prayer is no longer allowed in school, and we are not allowed to teach the word of God. Now we have to worry about guns in school. And why are prisoners given a bible to read? Maybe if they'd been allowed to read the bible in school, they wouldn't be in prison today. I admit there are days when I wonder about it all because a lot of it doesn't make sense, but then I think that we all had to come from some place. And the theory of evolution just doesn't do it for me. I have no real reasons for the way I feel, it's just what my heart tells me. It's what I grew up believing and it's what I still believe. However, I don't believe you have to go to church to earn a spot in heaven. God doesn't only live in church. If we try spending our lives being the best possible person we can, I think we'll be okay. We all make mistakes, but that's why we're human. I don't condemn anybody who doesn't believe as I do however. It's our God given right to have our own beliefs.

By Marianne Y (Marianne) on Saturday, November 10, 2007 - 10:28 pm:

Deb, it is not the government who is out to get, and remove Christianity, whether from schools, courthouse displays (nativity scenes or the 10 Commandments). You don't see them removing Channuka scenes or anything to do with Islam, whether in the schools or courthouses, or where ever. Our citizens seriously need to watch what is going on in this country, with those who want to remove "In God We Trust" from our money (that guy who is fighting it himself in the court system, from California; maybe it's a good thing that he seems to have suspended his practice of medicine, because he seems to be a pretty scary guy, at least to me). Ok, so that guy is one of a kind, who has negative support from the mother of his child, in whose name he is fighting this crazy case. The little girl's mother is even speaking out against that guy.

The rest of the cases, those who are trying to remove the 10 Commandments, any mention of Christmas in school Christmas parties, Christmas concerts that are now called "Winter Concerts", et al, because of lawsuits filed by the ACLU (American Civil Liberties Union), that is out there fighting anything and everything to do with Christianity. Unbelievably, music teachers are taking traditional Christmas songs and changing all the words, so there is no mention of Christmas or, in some cases, Santa Claus. It's really strange, because people of many religions celebrate Santa Claus these days.

For a while, retail stores, including Walmart, Target, and the rest, stopped decorating for Christmas, and started decorating for the Holidays. Their store personnel would not say Merry Christmas, because they weren't allowed to; they just said, "Happy Holidays". Well, after some boycotts, et al, all of a sudden many of the retail chains put the Christmas back into Christmas. I don't know if you noticed how hard it was, even last year, to find a Christmas card. All I could find was Happy Holidays cards, and I refused to send those. I will give our local Walmart store credit last year, close to Christmas, they started saying Merry Christmas, including when they answered the phone, but they were the exception, not the rule, then.

With my badly fractured back issues, I have not been able to go shopping this year since June, so I can't speak personally for this year. But, from what I have seen on TV, the retail stores are changing back, putting the Christmas back into Christmas. Stores were finding that their after Holiday Sales weren't working, like After Christmas sales had. But, there is one stupid town (maybe it's a good thing that I don't remember the state), that this year is trying to outlaw, believe it or not, any and all decorations in red or green, etc, because those colors signify Christmas! Personally, I find that absolutely beyond belief!

If they are going to outlaw Christianity, then all religions have to go, including Judaism and Islam! But, that's not what the ACLU wants...They just want Christianity eliminated, pure and simple.

By David Soumis (Davesou) on Saturday, November 10, 2007 - 10:46 pm:

one of the things I thought this country was trying to achieve is equality for all. Obviously that's not happening very well, considering gays, blacks, latinos, etc still are having a bit of a problem.

The ACLU isn't trying to abolish Christianity, but the display of it in public places. By displaying Christian stuff, singing Christian songs, and so forth, this discriminates against other religions and beliefs. Where's the national Jewish holiday, the national Muslim holiday, how about we say a prayer to Buddha, or maybe decorate everything in tea leaves, or whatever.

There was a Survivor episode a couple of weeks ago where one of the contestants proclaimed to be Christian, She refused to bow down in a Hindu ceremony...that wasn't a religious ceremony but a welcome ceremony. How unaccepting is that?
Equality. A lot of people do not celebrate Christmas and don't like all the fluff that goes with it, especially considering it isn't about Christmas anymore anyway...its all about spending money and getting gifts.

Some of you need to get out of the US and live in a place where you're the minority. I think it will give you a bit of a different outlook when you experience what its like to be discriminated against.

I would be for all the holidays that are not actual state based holidays, such as the 4th of July, Memorial Day, Labor day, etc.,to be done away with. Your employer would be required by law to give you your religious holidays off. No celebrating at work, in fact my employer has stopped any parties during Christmas time...although they do put up a tree and lights, and all the other fluff for Xmas. What's that called...diversity training.

Its sort of like having to change all the schools nicknames away from Native American words.

My religion doesn't believe in all this materialism and stuff for do you think that makes me feel having to be bombarded by all that stuff for 3 months ?

By Deb S. (Usedtobeayooper) on Saturday, November 10, 2007 - 11:12 pm:

I sent the ACLU a couple of Christmas cards last year without a return address on them so they couldn't send them back. I was trying to get across to them that not all believe as they do and to leave us alone with our beliefs.

Yes, I'm very happy to see "Christmas" put back into Christmas. We were extremely peeved with Wal-Mart for the way they were handling everything. We were also sick and tired of not seeing the word Christmas mentioned on any commercial, always "holiday". I did find a Christmas card that said "Merry Christmas" and didn't quit looking until I did. My husband says that it's "Merry Christmas" or don't come around. And for those of you who don't believe, I'm sorry for you. But again, should the majority have to give up their beliefs for the minority?

These other religions can celebrate their beliefs as far as I'm concerned. I see no problem with it. Just don't condemn us for our beliefs. And as far as I'm concerned, we're beginning to actually BE the minority in this country. What with this organization and that trying to take away everything we believe in, that's the way it's beginning to feel. I don't go around calling myself "French-American" because my ancestors are French-Canadian and French. I'm just an American, as I think of all of us who are American citizens. But maybe that's a topic best suited for another page.

By David Soumis (Davesou) on Sunday, November 11, 2007 - 08:25 am:

here's the demographics, taken form, where else, wikipedia, who also quotes the original source in here.
Most Americans adhere to Christianity. According to the 2001 American Religious Identification Survey (discussed below), 80% of the U.S. is Christian and 15% do not adhere to a religion. Other religions comprise 5% of the U.S. population. According to the CIA World Factbook, the U.S. is 78% Christian and 10% no religion, while other religions comprise 12% of the U.S. population. In descending order, the largest identified religious groups are Protestant (52%); Roman Catholic (24%); Mormon (2%); Buddhist (2%); Jewish (1%); and Muslim (1%).

From this, you can see why Christmas, and other Christian based holidays, have been celebrated such as they are, in the US. Jesus lives, as the opening post proclaimed.

And for you guys not knowing how to do hyperlinks and stuff, I received a link to a page from a person on here that tells how to do it.

By maija in Commerce Township (Maija) on Sunday, November 11, 2007 - 09:23 am:

There is only one thing I want done at my memorial service after I'm gone: play "Imagine" by John Lennon.

By Snowman (Snowman) on Sunday, November 11, 2007 - 10:11 am:

"Into The Mystic" by Van Morrison is my last request.

By David Soumis (Davesou) on Sunday, November 11, 2007 - 10:30 am:

Well, as long as we're into last requests ...
I'm planning my funeral right now...

1. A musical funeral ceremony. In the process of picking appropriate songs..those 2 above would fit for sure.

1A. Pine box ... the green kind. biodegradeable.

2. Buried in Chassell Michigan. Can I be buried in my front yard there?

3. Big party afterword. Barbecure ribs, pulled pork, cornbread, potato salad, baked beans, and for you yoopers, I suppose some pasties could be made available :)

4. Some good music blasting ... I think there will be a lot of good rockin music, some blues so you can cry in your beer.;)

5. a couple of kegs of Leinenkugel Honey Weiss

6. come as you are..rollers, nude, whatever ...I need a good laugh before the worms and bugs get to me down there under that good CC dirt.

By David Soumis (Davesou) on Sunday, November 11, 2007 - 10:37 am:

I forgot to add...I'm planning a dry run to see how it all goes off...well, call it a wet run as the beer will be there too :)
The pine box will be on display, but I won't be in it..dead anyway...I might try it on for size.
I'll invite you all when I'm ready.

Any requests for music ?

By Deb S. (Usedtobeayooper) on Sunday, November 11, 2007 - 10:51 am:

Geez, now we're planning funerals? Okay, I want to be cremated and buried in the plot with my parents in Lake Linden. Even though my husband is from MN., he wishes the same thing. My brother and his wife might be there too. Nothing like a nice big family reunion. No wake so people can come and look at me and say how good I look for a dead person. If you wish to see me, come now while I'm alive and can appreciate it.

"Imagine" would be one of my first choices for a song. That song is beautiful and I've always loved it. I also like "Remember When" by Alan Jackson and "Believe" by Brooks and Dunn. When I think of more I'll let you all know.

By Marianne Y (Marianne) on Sunday, November 11, 2007 - 11:07 am:

Holy Cow, guys, why all the talk about death and funerals? That's just grim. I prefer happy thoughts, myself.

I do, however, agree with Deb on the cremation part. Both of my parents were cremated, and all of my faithful companion dogs, who have passed on, have been cremated.

By David Soumis (Davesou) on Sunday, November 11, 2007 - 11:20 am:

Well, I have to disagree with you folks...I can feel the pain already being ignited by those flames...

How hot does the cremation chamber get?

The optimum temperature range is 1400 degrees to 1800 degrees Fahrenheit for the cremation chamber.

Quite frankly, its hotter than •••• :)
and I don't plan on getting even a sample of it.

I don't look at death at being grim..its part of life..or the end of it...we should embrace it. Its a cycle of life. Play hard, love, live...and all is good...if your life is fulfilling...
of course we all have loved ones...its hard on them for sure, that's why my death and the funeral will be more of a party, a celebration.

I just attended a funeral for a close friend in Minnesota...its wasn't a church thing..just a gethering of friends, a hundred or so, some relatives, shed some tears, reflect, and honor her life...she was awesome.

By Deb S. (Usedtobeayooper) on Sunday, November 11, 2007 - 11:23 am:

I just came here to write the same thing about death being a part of life. It is grim however, knowing that so many people are affected by it.

You're not going to feel anything David. Would you rather be eaten by bugs and whatnot? That's definitely not for me. I know I can't feel them eating away at me, but the thought makes me gag. Therefore, it will be ashes to ashes for me. Let them munch on that.

By David Soumis (Davesou) on Sunday, November 11, 2007 - 11:39 am:

the grim part comes in when someone dies prematurely, such as in a war, car accident, and so forth. A normal, if you can call it that, death, not so much.
A lot of it is the way we die...from diseases, and so forth...that is grim for sure.

I wonder what the percentage is of people just dying, like in your sleep, or whatever...not from violent means or disease. Then its a shock, especially if its someone younger than when you would expect to die from old age.

Death is a hard thing to grasp, to accept. A lot of you are Christians or other religions, so dying is just the beginning of a great afterlife with the in reality, death is a good thing.

The key, is to live a good on earth life now, isn't it? To help those that have problems so they can enjoy a good life too. I would think being peaceful, loving, caring, for people and our home, the Earth, would be foremost on everyone's mind, always.

By k j (Kathiscc) on Sunday, November 11, 2007 - 11:56 am:

Cremate me. Scatter my ashes with the ashes of my dogs on any body of water. Maybe I'll finally learn how to swim. No wake. Have a party instead.

By Marianne Y (Marianne) on Sunday, November 11, 2007 - 12:13 pm:

I was greatly affected by the death of my father's mom, back when I was in junior high school. I could not go to Iowa for her funeral because of school. Anyway, she had an open casket funeral. My dad took many slides of her, lying in her pretty blue metal coffin. When they had the graveside service, and I thought about the dirt being shoveled on top, it was hard. But, not as hard as the nightmares I had of the bugs and worms that would attack her body in time. And, I still, to this day, can vividly remember those pictures. I think that maybe children of certain ages should not go to funerals, etc, because that can cause issues.

Anyway, it was then that I realized that cremation was the only way to go. No creepy-crawlies for me, thank you very much. If you really believe in Jesus, than you believe that your spirit ascends into heaven, and it is just your body, that deserves respect as a human. Deb's right--there is no pain after death!

By David Soumis (Davesou) on Sunday, November 11, 2007 - 12:19 pm:

Hmmmm...I've never died, nor has anyone come back to tell me if there's pain or not.
Think I'll stay away from those flames.

Just some humor. Cremation seems to be getting more popular. We had our dog cremated, he weighed 150 pounds, so had to go to the human crematory.

We still have his ashes...he sits on top of a bookshelf. He still obeys commands, such as SIT ... LIE DOWN ... doesn't do FETCH very well anymore. we loved the old guy, and still do.

By Deb S. (Usedtobeayooper) on Sunday, November 11, 2007 - 12:28 pm:

Burgers, brats and beer with Skynyrd's "Freebird" blaring in the background. That's the way I'd prefer to be sent off. If it doesn't work out that way, oh well, I won't be around to disapprove.
Mr. Deb

By Gustaf O. Linja (Gusso) on Sunday, November 11, 2007 - 12:34 pm:

I will not write in the event of my death
As is written by some;
'cause I know my final day must come
When I die it is not my desire
to be put in the ground; no not for me.
Just put my shell on the cremate pire
and spread my ash in the wilderness free.

By Deb S. (Usedtobeayooper) on Sunday, November 11, 2007 - 01:19 pm:

My grandmother's death affected me a great deal also, and I was 19 years old and pregnant. It was the first funeral I went to that was of somebody I truly loved. I cried and cried both at the funeral home and at the church the next day. I hate the thought of her being in the ground.

My other grandmother always told me that she was so afraid of death but not so much death itself, just of being buried alive. I think that's when I first realized that there's no way anybody was going to put my body in the ground. Those words were spoken to me when I was very young, but they struck a chord with me. I will always remember her words. I realize that in this day and age it's impossible to be buried alive, but back then, it frightened her to the core. I will not be buried whole. I visit both sets of grandparent's graves whenever I'm UP there, and I often wonder about what has gotten to them. It makes me nauseous to think about it.

I do believe that today is the anniversary of my grandfather's death in 1983. I think of all of them often.

By Janie T. (Bobbysgirl) on Sunday, November 11, 2007 - 02:02 pm:

My daughter's father-in-law is a funeral home director/owner. She goes along with him on many body calls, optopsies, etc. She is very much into this science. She has watched a cremation in process, she says it is really something to see the flames shoot out of the eye sockets once the cardboard box the body is in is burned. She has practically seen it all!

By Snowman (Snowman) on Sunday, November 11, 2007 - 02:12 pm:

This is a bit long and sorry to take up so much space but I think it's appropriate;

Give my sight to a man who has never seen a sunrise, a baby's face or love in the eyes of a woman.
Give my heart to a person whose own heart has pain.
Give my kidneys to one who depends on a machine to exist.
Take my bones, every muscle, every fiber and nerve and find a way to make a crippled child walk.
Burn what is left of me and scatter the ashes to the winds to help the flowers grow.
If you must bury something, let it be my faults, my weaknesses and all my prejudice against my fellow man.
Give my sins to the devil. Give my soul to God. If by chance, you wish to remember me, do it with a kind deed or word to someone who needs you.
If you do all I have asked, I shall live forever.

By Deb S. (Usedtobeayooper) on Sunday, November 11, 2007 - 02:22 pm:

It wasn't too long because it was so beautifully said and very appropriate.

By FRNash/PHX, AZ (Frnash) on Sunday, November 11, 2007 - 02:32 pm:

Re Funerals:

"It wasn't too long because it was so beautifully said and very appropriate."

Ditto that!

Even as a kid, I never quite understood the strange "traditional" American funeral ritual, and I had been exposed to a number of them by my teen years.

Such a grotesque spectacle, including the viewing of the deceased, in a cosmetically (and surgically!) "enhanced" (and far too often ghoulishly so) state of repose, in an often ornate, elaborate and expensive casket (the funeral establishment's cost of course being a mere fraction of what they charge for it — as a "bundled" price, at least back in the day).

Then lowering that elaborate casket into a "hermetically sealed" concrete vault, and burying it "six feet under". As if the "remains" were not supposed to decompose?

Huh? Didn't I recall something about "ashes to ashes, dust to dust" from my early religious education? Was there something I didn't understand? (Perhaps it might be said, for those of different religious background, "your mileage may vary" with respect to the internment of the "remains".)

Reading the original (hard cover, even) edition of The American Way of Death (published in 1963, see note 1 below) by Jessica Mitford clinched it for me.


"In the book Mitford harshly criticized the [funeral] industry for using unscrupulous business practices to take advantage of grieving families. The book became a major bestseller and led to Congressional hearings on the funeral industry. The book was also one of the inspirations for filmmaker Tony Richardson's 1965 film The Loved One, which was based on Evelyn Waugh's novel."

(I was never aware of her political leanings — as noted at the above link — until developing this link today, although I can't see that they had any bearing on the substance of her work in this book.)

As for myself, if I have anything to say about it1, I have no desire to be placed on view with eyelids and mouth sewn shut, cheeks stuffed with cotton or the like, and my appearance otherwise cosmetically "adjusted" to a proper ghoulish tone.

Cremation will serve me quite nicely, and perhaps a scattering of the ashes over some appropriate spot in da UP.

(1 Sadly, whatever you may think, the deceased has absolutely nothing to say about it, never mind any instructions may have been incorporated in a will, or elsewhere. Your "final disposition" is solely up to the discretion/dictates/whim of your heirs. I hope you chose them wisely!)

Note 1:
The original The American Way of Death and some later editions may be out of print, although a later The American Way of Death Revisited may still be available for purchase. And of course one or more of these may be available at your local library.

This from: -- unique book & ISBN database


The American Way of Death
by Jessica Mitford
Publisher: New York : Fawcett Crest, 1964, c1963.
ISBN: 0449205452 Edition: (pbk.) :$2.95

The American Way of Death
by Jessica Mitford
Publisher: New York : Simon and Schuster, c1978.
ISBN: 0671244159 DDC: 338.4761460973 LCC: HD9999 Edition: pbk

The American way of death
by Jessica Mitford
Publisher: New York : Simon and Schuster, c1978.
ISBN: 0671247069 DDC: 338.4761460973 LCC: HD9999

The American way of death
by Jessica Mitford
Publisher: New York : Fawcett Crest, c1978
ISBN: 0449239853

The American way of death revisited
Jessica Mitford
Publisher: New York : Alfred A. Knopf, 1998.
ISBN: 0679450378 DDC: 338.47363750973 LCC: HD9999

The American Way of Death Revisited
Publisher: Vintage
ISBN: 0679771867 Edition: Paperback; 2000-01-04

The American Way of Death Revisited
Jessica Mitford,
Publisher: Virago Press Ltd
ISBN: 1860497624 DDC: 306 Edition: Paperback; 2000-11-02

David Hiltunen (Davidcorrytontn) on Sunday, November 11, 2007 - 02:43 pm:

Great reading on here today. I have not seen anyone saying they would donate their body to Science, or be a organ donor. I had a good friend who got one of the first heat transplants back in 1981 or there a bouts. I am not sure, dose anyone know when transplant of body parts became the norm, like going to the junkyard for parts for your vehicle? Would you want to live with someone else's heart ticking in you keeping you alive? Or give yours away? What would you be afraid of by doing either? I not going to need them when I go, just wish the family could put them on e-bay.

I often said, "When I die give me a enema and burry me in a matchbox." You know the kind of matches with the good strong stick, a lot of red with the white tip you can scratch on your zipper, if you don't have the box handy because I am in it. Not the kind they have these days that the box and matches are small, although i'd still fit in after the enema. I still want the older bigger kind.
That was great Snowman! Where did you get that from?

By Snowman (Snowman) on Sunday, November 11, 2007 - 03:00 pm:

It was written by Robert Noel Test. I shortened it up a bit so as to not seem like I was taking over the "floor".
This, along with the song, "Into The Mystic" is my last request.

Here is the full-lenght version;

By Deb S. (Usedtobeayooper) on Sunday, November 11, 2007 - 03:02 pm:

I would definitely be an organ donor hoping that everything works properly. However, I'd have to die young probably, and I'm really not ready to do that.

I am sooo with FRNash! I do not wish to be seen after death. My children and grandchildren (and husband of course) may see me right after I die to get closure, and then that is all that they should need. Why anybody would want to go through the whole ordeal for hours upon hours of sitting next to a dead person while other people give you their condolences and say how nice the dead person looks is beyond me. He/she doesn't look nice, he/she looks dead. There is nothing nice about that. Half of these people didn't like you in life but all of a sudden there they are. No thank you. I wouldn't mind having my ashes spread over Lake Superior, but I know how much I enjoy visiting my grandparent's graves and talking to them, praying over them, whatever. I would hope that my family would like to do the same for me.

My husband knows my wishes, but I guess I'd better make sure that my kids understand my wishes too. I don't want to be made a spectacle of, and that's the way I feel about funeral homes. They make so much money it's not funny. In fact, it's ridiculous! Cremation is the way to go.

By Mary Drew at Pasty Central (Mdrew) on Sunday, November 11, 2007 - 03:18 pm:

I just want to interject this into the discussion here:

Having recently lost my Father-in-law AND my Mom these past few months, (not to mention my Dad almost 14 years ago already), I have to say that the viewing and the funeral are NOT for the dead person, they are for the living survivors and for me at least, having folks come to the funeral home and then the funeral to honor these important people in my life, was VERY comforting. As were the many cards and notes we received. The funny stories that the visitors had to tell me about them or just their handshake, hug or smile, was more comforting than I can explain.

I do understand folks saying that if people can't visit you when you're alive, you don't want them coming to look at you when you're dead...but again, I say, the visitation and funeral are not for the dead, they're for the living and for a good number of people, it's part of the grief process that we need to get on with our lives, to know that others cared enough about our deceased loved one to come and tell me so.

Through this experience, I've found that days and weeks after the funeral, folks do not bring up your deceased loved one as much, if at all (except for good friends that still do), maybe because they're uncomfortable about how I might respond, so it's like they didn't ever exist. Yes, it's uncomfortable to go to a visitation or funeral and offer words of comfort to the survivors, but I'm afraid that if we hadn't had a visitation and funeral, people might have never said anything at all and I'd have felt even more alone than ever.

Just another angle that no one has mentioned yet...I hope I explained it so you can get my "drift". :->

By David Hiltunen (Davidcorrytontn) on Sunday, November 11, 2007 - 03:24 pm:

Shame on me for asking Snowman.More for your sake then mine.But thank you.

My Mother-in-law passed on in 1996.It was her wish to have her open casket on display at the Church with family or friends there all night long until she was buried.There was a homing device locked into the tube on casket,along with all the other info.

By Deb S. (Usedtobeayooper) on Sunday, November 11, 2007 - 03:32 pm:

Certainly understand your point Mary. And I'm definitely glad that it helped you. But we are not all alike, and I truthfully am glad that my parents don't wish to have this any more than I do. There will of course be a funeral and something afterwards where we can all get together and tell stories to our heart's content. But the funeral home thing to me is just morbid, as is the ride to the cemetery. This is something else that I don't want. The funeral will end at the church. I have no desire to watch my loved one be put into the ground, and I don't want my loved ones to go through it either. We all have our own ideas about this but I've felt this way my whole life. I don't see me changing my mind. I will carry out my parent's wishes, but as far as I know, this is what they tell me they want also.

By the way, Mary! I still think about your mom and you often. And you're right, I hate to bring the subject up because I don't want you to get sad. If ever you feel like talking about it, you know how to reach me.

By Marianne Y (Marianne) on Sunday, November 11, 2007 - 03:57 pm:

Mary, my heart goes out to you on your recent losses of both your mom and your father-in-law. I do know how comforting it can be for the living, and that is the reason to do it, solely for the living. I am so sorry for you that this discussion came up this morning. I was shocked that so many were talking about death at one time, anyway, on my own, and I had temporarily forgotten about your recent losses of your loved ones. This has to be terribly difficult.

On the viewing at the funeral home, I know that can be very comforting to the living, especially depending on the circumstances. A friend of ours passed away very suddenly this summer, like he was perfectly fine one day, and the next day, he was ok, until he got sick. They took him to the ER, and he died about 3 hours later. This was a case of never getting to tell your loved one good-bye, because they had no idea that he was so sick, until he slipped into a coma. That was a severe shock to their family. They lived on a small farm with a stable and some horses, but his wife could not take care of everything by herself. Fortunately, her son and his wife wanted to move into the family home with their mom, especially since they needed more room, as their daughter-in-law was pregnant with their first child. But, no plans had ever been thought of or considered, because all appeared healthy. (I believe that Tom died of an aortic aneurysm, but an autopsy was not done, so they will never be sure.) For them, the choice of the extended viewing time was almost essential, as the total shock of the situation slowly sank in to his widow. She needed the comfort and love of the visitors, immensely. I would not let my two younger sons go to the viewing, because of what I related above, particularly because my middle son is a special needs kid, he would have no concept of what was going on, other than probably fear. Anyway, I stayed home with the boys (plus I can't get out much at all because of my severe back problems), so my husband went, as he had worked with Sally off and on for 20 plus years, plus my special needs son participates in the 4H Special Needs Rider Program that Sally and Tom helped lead.

I believe that these decisions depend on the individual families and what is important to them, and some deep-seated feelings that must be honored, as well as possible special circumstances.

By David Soumis (Davesou) on Sunday, November 11, 2007 - 04:17 pm:

i would like to apologize to anyone my posts may have offended. I didnt mean to be insensitive, nor was that my intent.

I truly understand grief and how it affects people, as have all of you, I've attended my share of funerals, including a couple that were just heart wrenchers and very emotional.

We all go thought the griefing process a bit differently. I have some non-typical views on death and dying, and funerals.

Just for your information, not sure if it applies in Michigan or not, but it is possible to not embalm the person. There is abut a 3 day window where you can do a "natural" funeral. There are occasions, such as in winter, where the body can be preserved for a longer time by cold storage.

I'm into natural funeral...biodegradable casket, more than likely no viewing, burial--without the lining...and the rest as described above.

this pretty much describes what I want.
Green Funeral My family is 100% online with my choice, although I won't know, will I. I did promise to haunt them forever if they chose to ignore my wishes.

By Snowman (Snowman) on Sunday, November 11, 2007 - 04:27 pm:

I understand about people wanting funerals but why should it have to be another "money game"? If your soul goes to heaven, then why have to worry about the body? Cremation dates back to the Stone Age. Why should dying be such a costly ordeal? What happens to the graves hundreds of years from now? Wouldn't you rather be "dust" in the wind?

By FRNash/PHX, AZ (Frnash) on Sunday, November 11, 2007 - 04:27 pm:

Thank you Mary Drew at Pasty Central (Mdrew) for adding some valuable insight to this discussion.

"… the viewing and the funeral are NOT for the dead person, they are for the living survivors …" and are a part of their grieving process.

Those were almost the exact words of Jim Ahola (recently deceased) of the Memorial Chapel Funeral Home in the planning of my mom's funeral on or about Thanksgiving Day, in November. 2000. And in accordance with her wishes, we did the "whole nine yards," "viewing" and all. [Sigh!]

So Mary, I certainly respect your feelings.

More, I certainly have no objection to some memorial ceremony for the survivors. 'Tis probably valuable "therapy".

(I was just about to post the following when I saw your note, so I had to add the above preface.)

Just a small clarification:

Disparaging the funeral industry was not my intent in my previous post, although Jessica Mitford sure did plenty of that in The American Way of Death. I don't know, but perhaps the state of that industry at the time might have deserved that treatment. I suspect that there have been some reforms in the funeral industry since that era, perhaps in part resulting from the congressional hearings mentioned above.

There still is some legitimage concern that the next of kin are often extremely vulnerable to financial exploitation in those trying circumstances, and undoubtedly there are at least a very small number of funeral services practitioners that are quite willing to take advantage of that state of affairs. I am sure that is not applicable to the industry at large.

My very formative "education" as gained from the book, however, was about the rather sordid "preparation" (stitching, sewing, stuffing, cosmetic applications, and the like) of the body. To what end? For what rational purpose? For "viewing" of the deceased??? How utterly macabre! (To me, that's more like mutilition of the corpse!)

It is that reason that for many years I refused to attend such "viewings". In fact I have said that I will refuse to attend my own funeral! — Good luck with that, eh?)

I would far prefer to retain my existing memories of deceased loved ones than to risk having those pleasant memories indelibly replaced by such a grotesque, cosmetically fabricated "final" image of the "dear departed"! Good "grief" — Not!

Further, as Marianne Y (Marianne) said,
"… these decisions depend on the individual families and what is important to them …" thus again, "your mileage may vary," and that's OK.

Ditto what David Soumis (Davesou) said as well.

By Snowman (Snowman) on Sunday, November 11, 2007 - 05:51 pm:

FRNash, you are my mentor. Wish you were on the presidential ticket.

By Mary Drew at Pasty Central (Mdrew) on Sunday, November 11, 2007 - 05:52 pm:

I didn't take offense to any-one's comments, just wanted to pretend I was Paul Harvey, with "The rest of the story". :->

Yes, it does depend on individual families and yes, it is a time when the family is very vulnerable, so to make sure you or your family won't be taken advantage of, you can do like my parents had done and purchase your cemetery lot and headstone while you're still living. You can pretty much set the whole thing up while you're living, or you can also find a caring, reputable funeral director such as we had for both my parents and my father-in-law too.

As for the "showing", you do not have to "show" the person at all. My Dad didn't want to be shown, so we just had a picture of him on top the casket and of course poster boards full of pictures of him with everyone in the family. The "showing" wasn't the important thing for me, it was the "sharing" - stories, hugs and yes, even laughs. The Posters were so much fun to make, looking through family photos for silly ones and nice looking ones and making sure everyone was accounted for on them. That also was quite healing to do, along with the rest of the family too.
Another thought about the "viewing"...I really think it was helpful to the little ones to be able to see Grandma, as they really asked some pretty deep questions about death while there. Some of them wanted to touch her and they were able to understand a little more about death because of that. Perhaps they found it less disturbing than we as adults do.
They have such simple acceptance of complex things like 5 year old Grandson was told by his Mom, when our 15 year old Golden Retriever died, that "Pippin died and went to heaven." When he saw Papa burying Pippin later that day, he helped him dig the hole for him, then went running in the house to tell his Mom that, "Pippin isn't in heaven, he's in the sand!"

You don't have to watch your loved one be put in the ground either, Deb, at least we didn't. AND PLEASE do not think that I'm saying the way you want to have things done is wrong, I'm just giving voice to how we did it and what comforted us. Our funeral director waited until everyone had left the cemetery before they lowered them into the ground. At the cemetery, my sister-in-law had bought helium balloons, so that all the grand-kids and great-grand-kids would have one to hold there. When the priest was done with the prayers, they all let the balloons go and we watched them float up to Heaven with Grandma. That was awesome to see all those little kids faces looking up so intently.
Remember my 5 yr. old Grandson with the comment about our dog Pippin? At my Mom's viewing he saw and asked a lot of questions. Then later told me how Grandma was in the sand like Pippin now, but that she was really in Heaven with the balloons. I truly believe that seeing Grandma and then being there at the cemetery with the balloons and everything, helped him to understand what was happening much better and why we were all so sad, rather than one day Grandma was alive, then all of a sudden she's gone, somewhat mysteriously.

But now I've gone on wayyyy to long here...and Deb, thanks for the offer to talk if I need to. I appreciate that. Just know too, that it doesn't take someone bringing up my Mom and her being gone to make me's with me daily, some days are better than others.
I learned a while ago, when friends of ours lost both their young sons in a house fire, that you need to talk about someone's deceased loved ones long after they're gone. On the anniversary of their death, I called her up and had sent them a card that we were thinking of them and also of the boys. She thanked me and said that nobody mentions them anymore, because they're afraid she'll cry and she felt like they had almost never existed because of that. We need to help folks keep the memories of their loved ones alive. So make sure you mention their loss once in awhile on special days, so that they know you haven't forgotten them either. :-)
I hope this helps everyone understand another dimension of grief, so you can help someone going through it in some small way.

Maybe I should just write a book, huh? I've got a darn good start....ha, ha!!

By Deb S. (Usedtobeayooper) on Sunday, November 11, 2007 - 06:25 pm:

Beautifully stated, Mary!!! And believe me, I know we don't have to mention your mom to you for you to think of her. I still think about my grandparents and sometimes there are tears. So I can just imagine how it is with your parents. I just feel, wrongly obviously, that I don't need to make it worse for you. But when you come right down to it, I'm sure it couldn't get much worse. We think about you often, just so you know.

Mary says: Thanks Deb, I know you do (You too Mr. Deb)! :->

By dan belo (Djbelo) on Sunday, November 18, 2007 - 10:05 pm:

there have been AT LEAST 400 people brought back from the dead! read the book

By Michael Du Long (Mikie) on Sunday, November 18, 2007 - 11:24 pm:

Blue Cross is showing an ad that features a white haired man talking about his double lung transplant. That is Precious brother Walter Wisniewski and he is a miracle to be here. His operation was about two years ago and now he is doing all the things that he did before his lungs gave out.

By David Hiltunen (Davidcorrytontn) on Monday, November 19, 2007 - 09:33 pm:

I don't know who is asking the question if Jesus Christ is alive? Who is the one taking credit for this page? Betty still wants to know, and I do to.

Abortion has been discussed some. I don't think politics should be involved with that.If you have the dough for it get it. What if Daddy wants it? I would think your religious beliefs would guide you for that. I belive life begins at the time of conception, with a soul. A clone would not have a soul.

Used to be a lot of abortions in big cities like Detroit. Would think the crime rate would drop with these little hoodlums being taken out of the gene pool. It's a sick thing to say, but it could have some truth to it.

By FJL (Langoman) on Tuesday, November 27, 2007 - 05:43 pm:

On the subject of creamation. Does it add to global warming as some are suggesting???

By Jerry J Gedvillas (Jjg) on Tuesday, November 27, 2007 - 08:41 pm:

The more serious the sin and the more often committed, the greater is this induced darkening of man's most precious possession which makes him most like God, his ability to think. Sinner do not think, they emote and then write learned volumes defending their irrationality.

By Tom (Tom) on Wednesday, November 28, 2007 - 02:17 pm:

David, what makes you think a clone would not have a soul?If it is living???? why not a soul? Maybe animals have one? I remember back in the 1970s someone was offering $10,000 if you could prove the existence of a soul? No did. What is it anyway? I guess I should look it up in the dictionary. Been a long time since I pondered that.

By Tom (Tom) on Wednesday, November 28, 2007 - 02:22 pm:

Just looked up soul so don't print out the whole definition. Seems to be bases purely on belief, not science.

By David Hiltunen (Davidcorrytontn) on Wednesday, November 28, 2007 - 06:08 pm:

Soul is a belief rather then a science.So is soul food real? Just what are you saying when you tell someone, Bless your soul. For me the soul is what gives life, and leaves the instant the body dies which has no use for it, and goes a looking for another birth to pass on the faith gathered by the last poor soul who had it previously.My understanding, a soul lives forever storing info 7 times and then it goes on to teach that who left us here, such as God.

Maybe one dose not belive in God, or that no one left us here, it all happened by accident. For me it is just to perfect to have happened that way. The Earth maybe is here by accident, but not life placed on it.

Is it so hard to belive that millions of years ago dinosaurs ruled Earth at the top of the food chain? Why could this not have happened as I am about to write......

The whole continent of Africa was the Garden Of Eden. Other advanced life form came here from another Universe to reap the resources found here they could use. But they tired from labor and could not find anything here on Earth intelligent enough to teach them to do the work needed, even after mixing living things together found here in a peaty dish they could not make anything, only leaving things as the Sphinx ect. But until they, from the other Universe, used their own DNA and mixed it with swamp water, or a Ape or something close enough, were then able to get what they were looking for. Us. It is written we are in the image of Gods eyes. And we evolved into what we are today, but somehow lost our abilities to do things like build the Pyramids ect. after they left us here. The Others could be watching us same as we look into a fish tank that we designed.
When we landed on the Moon,were we told to never come back?

Okay, will the people in them white lab coats come looking for me?

By Deb S. (Usedtobeayooper) on Wednesday, November 28, 2007 - 06:46 pm:

I liked that David. It was very interesting.

By David Soumis (Davesou) on Wednesday, November 28, 2007 - 06:46 pm:

you know, I've always thought about the same as some alien life form brought us to Earth.

Something happened to the species..the old folks that lived in Europe, was it the neandrathals(sp), were pretty much the top of the heap, but then those people from the middle east and Egypt area took over and became what we now know as homo sapiens. could it be? There was actually a total different species of humans prior to that.

now what book did I read that in?

By Snowman (Snowman) on Wednesday, November 28, 2007 - 07:10 pm:

David, don't worry about the people in the white lab coats - - - they're hard at work trying to cover up the "Roswell Incident" and many other "Incidents".

By Gordon Jelsma (Gjelsma) on Friday, November 30, 2007 - 09:28 am:

Back to the original question - “Is Jesus Christ Alive?”. I serve a risen savior, as witnessed by hundreds of others. So, yes he died on the cross but arose and still lives today – not just in my heart and those of others but in a real sense.