Past-E-Mail: Various Topics: Politics and Religion, Ketchup or Gravy: Politics

Kathy P. (Katiaire) on Tuesday, January 1, 2008 - 07:43 am:

Russemmons, I agree with your above statements re: health care. There are a lot of people who cannot afford the premiums charged by the health care carriers especially if you cannot get in a group program. It is not a matter of choice...it is a matter of not being able to pay $400-$600 + a month.
Even if one is fortunate enough to have coverage thru a group plan you hold your breathe each year when the premiums increase and the benefits decrease.
The insurance companies are not blameless in this mess. Now they want to sub-catagorize the insureds into risk groups i.e. smokers/non-smokers; diabetics/non-diabetics etc...that defeats the purpose of insurance, which is to spread the risk. And forget it if you have had a medical problem in the past...if you can get insurance, your pre-existing condition (for which you probably need coverage) will be excluded. Insurance is BIG business and as is the current trend in our country,,,a decent profit is not enough..greed gets in the way!!
Thus, those of us with adequate medical coverage and/or good health should be thankful rather than judgmental.
Off to northbirding.com

By Heikki (Heikki) on Tuesday, January 1, 2008 - 09:59 am:

Yes, indeed, Katie P. Insurance IS big business. Each time I drive down the interstate and see these "palaces" located on acres of land resembling a royal estate, I say to my better half, "It must be an insurance firm or pharmaceutical company." Likewise are the firms handling medical malpractice insurance, another factor contributing to the expense of medical services. This discussion could go on and on, to infinity, with examples of costs associated with other than direct treatment of patient by doctor. But, as you say, we who do have adequate insurance should be thankful for being able to pay into a system our entire working lives. The issue now is getting everybody affordable health insurance. It's going to take someone with the wisdom of Solomon to 'ferret out' this one, for sure.

By David Soumis (Davesou) on Tuesday, January 1, 2008 - 10:51 am:

it doesn't take much wisdom, just a little bit of common sense.

#1 ... the insurance companies are being greedy. The purpose of insurance used to be to take care of things when they happen for the consumer...it was the RISK the insurance companies assumed. They do not take the RISK any longer. If you have a problem, your rates go up. If you have a condition, you will find yourself without insurance, especially if you have to change jobs, etc.

#2 ... your employer isn't willing to give up profits to pay for your health care. Your portion continues to rise while the coverage continues to decline.

#3 ... No one without a job can afford insurance. No matter how much anyone says we need affordable insurance, if you're not working or make low wage, you cannot afford it. Why ? YOU DON"T HAVE ANY MONEY ! You have a choice...housing, food, clothes ?

Take a look at this ... it outlines what a liveable wage is...based on 2003 figures. Since then, the inflation rate has outpaced the pay raises given. For instance, in 2007, the inflation rate is at 4.7%. The average pay raise is expected to be 3.7%

My wife works full time at Walmart...made a whopping $18,000 this year. Most of the people working there have kids....most are the only wage earner. How can you afford insurance?

#4 ... Billions of dollars are being spent on DEFENSE...mostly the WAR in Iraq. To me, it makes sense to use that money to help people live versus using it to kill.

Don't forget one important point in regards to this war...THE MONEY TO PAY FOR IT COMES OUT OF YOUR POCKET !!!!

$275 million per day
$4,100 per household

Here's the tradeoff to how it relates in healthcare:

Taxpayers in the United States will pay $137.6 billion for the cost of the Iraq War in FY 2007. For the same amount of money, the following could have been provided:
39,240,332 People with Health Care

Isn't that a coincidence?

By Gustaf O. Linja (Gusso) on Tuesday, January 1, 2008 - 11:43 am:

Speaking about the cost of war; how about if one were to add to that the millions spent on political campaigning. I believe it could be put to much better use than waging war and mud slinging.

By David Soumis (Davesou) on Tuesday, January 1, 2008 - 12:41 pm:


"Speaking about the cost of war; how about if one were to add to that the millions spent on political campaigning. I believe it could be put to much better use than waging war and mud slinging".


By Tom (Tom) on Tuesday, January 1, 2008 - 01:30 pm:

While it seems that insurance companies are "greedy" remember that all kinds, and sizes of pension plans and IRAs invest in those companies to grow the benefits to the people and groups who have invested. So the pressure "we" put on insurance companies to gain profits for our pensions results in higher premiums.
UAW, and all those other large unions invest in insurance companies to enable them to pay their retires the benefits they promised. The result is almost a catch 22 situation.
Investing in domestic auto companies does not pay a return on investment. Same with many of the white goods firms. So many outsource production in an attempt to bring up profits for their shareholders.
Throw out the profits to the owners/shareholders of all companies and you won't have them, thus no jobs. The economy would regress in a massive way. And government is unable to solve those kinds of changes. Witness the old USSR which owned the factors of production for 70 or 80 years and could not improve conditions for the general population. Money always flows to it's best return. Here or overseas. Sometimes it flows into private businesses or to US government bonds which have been very secure to date.
Probably the largest accumulation of wealth not being redistributed is in the Arabian Gulf.
How do you get that back?

By Heikki (Heikki) on Tuesday, January 1, 2008 - 01:52 pm:

It'll take wisdom. A Caterpillar Corp. slogan borrowed from years ago, "There are no simple solutions; only intelligent alternatives", speaks volumes. This discussion is rich in opinion (mine included), but lacks comprehensive insight of complex matters. I've never found activist websites a good source of objectivity. As with most political issues, the unvarnished truth/facts lie not to the far left or the far right, but somewhere near the middle.

By Marianne Y (Marianne) on Tuesday, January 1, 2008 - 02:19 pm:

The thing that seems to be really unfair in this medical costs game is that in many cases, insurance companies have greatly bargained down the rates for their insured, for expensive medical tests, like X-rays, CT scans, MRI's, lab work, and you name it, so the insurance companies only pay a fraction of the amount billed. Yet those without insurance, the ones who can least afford it, are left to pay the full cost billed. It would seem more fair if each test or procedure had the same price for everyone, whatever their insurance or not, medicare or not, so that the uninsured are not left the additional burden of being the only ones stuck paying the full prices for anything, including prescription medications. To me, at least, that would be the fair way. And, in most cases, the prices billed are above the real individual costs, to cover the hospital's costs of those who can't pay their bills. That means that those few uninsured have on their backs the burden of paying for those others who can't pay their bills.

And, that does not even address the extremely high cost of medical insurance for the self-employed, that is many times the figure quoted by someone here recently, I would think that the self-employed should be lumped in with the rest of at least smaller businesses, at least for premium-rating purposes, because it would be a much larger pool.

By Kathy P. (Katiaire) on Wednesday, January 2, 2008 - 11:56 am:

I agree 100%, Marianne, about the bills being adjusted by the insurance companies. It is not a slight adjustment either; sometimes over 50%. It leaves a very bad taste in one's mouth. The same with perscriptions...over charge some and give it away free to doctors and some patients. Why not a fair price for all?
Not all insurance companies are stock companies and therefore do not have stockholders benefiting from the large profits, but their practices are the same. As a member of a mutual company, I do not see any premium decreases as the profits accure.
Admittedly, this is a tough problem, but as Davesou points out a good start would be to spend more of the military budget on our people at home.
But then again many of our current economic problems seem to result from greed...and you can't legislate morality.

By A. David Archibald (Yooperatheart61) on Wednesday, January 2, 2008 - 02:09 pm:

Davesou- You again have hit the nail on the head-absolutely true-As of this posting, I still have great coverage-Medicare with Blue Shield-Blue Cross that pays what medicare doesn't pay and prescription-eye-dental coverage,but everyone needs to have health care benefits not just we lucky ones!!! If I had to pay for this coverage both my wife and I would be in the same boat as Russemmons. In 2008, lets pray that our leader do the right thing and start providing coverage for all Americans

By Eugene Zuverink (Zube) on Wednesday, January 2, 2008 - 08:20 pm:

David A, I agree everyone should have coverage.
BUT! Do you have any idea how that could be done? With out our taxes going sky high, but I guess Hillary has it all figured out.
Gene in Wayland

By Eugene Zuverink (Zube) on Wednesday, January 2, 2008 - 08:46 pm:

If these same people that are running for president would raise the same amount of money for the uninsured, that would be something, but we know that would never happen. They don't have the same feeling in there gut as people do that do not have coverage. They don't loose any sleep over this,because there covered for life with our tax dollars Gene in Wayland

By Charlie at Pasty Central (Chopper) on Thursday, January 17, 2008 - 11:17 pm:

I ran into Soupy Sales once out in a convenience store in Long Island many years ago.

By Russell E. Emmons (Russemmons) on Monday, January 21, 2008 - 10:40 pm:

I have noted for years whatever the weather, NONE of my good very Conservative/Republican neighbors will put up their American flags on this day! I find this more then interesting or amusing being this is Michigan not Alabama or Mississippi!

By Michael Du Long (Mikie) on Monday, January 21, 2008 - 11:23 pm:

Russ my flag and my Michigan flag are up and will stay up till all the service people return home.

By Paul Oesterle (Paulwebbtroll) on Tuesday, January 22, 2008 - 06:14 am:

Our flags, American, State of Michigan and the MSU and UM flags are up every day with a light on them at night.

By Russell E. Emmons (Russemmons) on Wednesday, January 23, 2008 - 02:22 am:

Bless you Mikie and Paul! Ours is up everyday except when it is really blowing and rainy or when we go away.
I neglected to say my neighbors mentioned have their flag(s) up most everyday but never ever on M L Kings day!

By Matt Karhu (Matt_k) on Wednesday, January 23, 2008 - 09:12 am:

Reviewing previous comments about health care and health insurance in the U.S., it seems that some people don't realize what kind of a mess doctors and dentists office and business managers often have because of the many insurance providers and related paper-work. Friends in this profession universally express the opinion that a single-payer health insurance system would reduce doctors and dentists office paperwork and expenses.

Many years ago, doctors did quite well financially even when they had many patients who had no health insurance who usually had an unpaid balance that they paid on as they were able. This was especially true of family doctors/GP's.

I seems to me that certain people find it easy to refer to a single-payer health insurance system as socialized medicine. Perhaps the HMO's went astray when they got into health care aspects that produced questionable and undesirable results with respect to the health care industry.

By Tom (Tom) on Wednesday, January 23, 2008 - 05:00 pm:

Any time government controls an industry and collects taxes to pay suppliers for services rendered to customers you have socialism.
A brief definition of socialism: gov't controls all prices, including labor, products to be produced and therefore what jobs will exist.
The result is a small number of people control the population even though they are elected democratically.

By David Hiltunen (Davidcorrytontn) on Wednesday, January 23, 2008 - 07:50 pm:

All this is very interesting to me,since my last post Monday night. There can be a lot to comment on when you miss so much as even two days! January has been a very interesting month thus far, and we have 8 day's left.

(Is there somethin' I'm missing here, or has everyone forgotten how to click on links?)

Who asked the above question this past tuesday? Do you really have to go look? Unless you are new here.It really don't matter where here is, as long as your there. Clue- it was Frank.

Doesn't anyone ever look these things up themselves? Clue- he also said that. And this to,,,,

Pytavey, of course I could have answered the question about Sisu myself, but I couldn't have said it better.

Then Mikie said on Wednesday, January 23, 2008 - 03:49 pm: " Frank we have all become dependent on you." Clue- this guy thinks Mikie was kidding.

I just don't think folks trust opening links any more then they do zip's. Either that or there's a whole bunch of redundancy here today.

T.R.B. used to see Owl's all the time in the Soo as a child sitting on the roof tops getting warm by the chimneys. Made me think of the time I did that with my back to it for warmth.I have seen all types of Owl's in the wild.

Maybe a new page for links - copy cut & paste's is in order.

Alota of great reading from Capt. Paul on cold temps with no blue in it. Dave Soumis was entertaining with Cowabunga.

All of my Michigan friends, some who showed up just after Thanksgiving, others on New's Years Day and brought cold weather with them, have fled the mansion here to head back North.. The Staff are back once more from a much needed rest. Time to get back to a normal routine around here. (Define normal) Just me and Barbie, along with the dog's. Feels good. Had one nice day in a Hot Tub outside. If only the Packers won, I would feel abit better.

The reason I posted here on this page is..I was sad to see Fred Thompson drop out of the GOP Race, but that's another story! I do not think (me David H.) can support the Republican presidential nominee in this year’s election.

MY reason: There is not a genuine down-the-list conservative, among the GOP candidates. None of the candidates left are far enough right, and I could point out they are not conservative, what he did, voted ect. that is not conservative.

The ones leading the pack want the nomination for none other because they belive it's their turn! Reminds me of 1996 with Bob Dole scenario eh? You think it's going to come down to, which guy do we dislike the least?

Mike Huckabee, and John McCain If either of these guys get the nomination, it's the beginning of the end to destroy the Republican Party.(With Mitt R.) maybe not as bad, other two it's going to change it forever!!. Many people aren't going to vote, I know in my mine I may not be able to.

By Eugene Zuverink (Zube) on Thursday, January 24, 2008 - 12:18 pm:

David H, If Hillary and Slick Willy get the nod for there party, you have to vote, if only in protest. I think McCain,might be on the elderly side like me, but!! one thing about him he is a no nonsense guy., and he loves his country.
Gene in Wayland

By Matt Karhu (Matt_k) on Thursday, January 24, 2008 - 03:02 pm:

It doesn't take much intelligence to realize that health insurance companies are not the dispensers of health care, they are in the insurance business for the reasons previously stated.

Maybe health care should be considered as essential as national highways, schools, utilities, etc., and treated in a similar manner. There is no doubt that a healthy population is essential to the economic and military strength of this country

This is a great forum for the exchange of well-founded and less than well-founded opinions by apologists for their political affiliations. Perhaps those who seem to know much about the subject of health care insurance and health care will comment accordingly and let their knowledge, or lack thereof, be further revealed.

By Snowman (Snowman) on Friday, January 25, 2008 - 06:38 pm:


NEW YORK (CNNMoney.com) -- High oil prices are a drag on the economy, but OPEC isn't likely to raise production at its special meeting next week. But experts say the cartel is on track to meet worldwide demand - and keep prices from rising further - in the long run.

Yeah, right!

By David Hiltunen (Davidcorrytontn) on Friday, January 25, 2008 - 07:57 pm:

Marathon best in the long run.I do not think Health Care can be fixed,unless made affordable to the Public,for the Republic of which we stand.

By Matt Karhu (Matt_k) on Friday, January 25, 2008 - 08:57 pm:

Just in case some of you aren't aware, the health care discussion has a new page, it is titled "Health Care: Should every U.S. wage-earner be required to have health care insurance?"

By Russell E. Emmons (Russemmons) on Sunday, January 27, 2008 - 07:17 pm:

Recent polls have shown that only 3 to 15% of the public be they Conservative or Liberal believe big business/corporations are being honest, fair, on the up & up, not gouging and enviromentally conscious. Lowest scoring of course was big oil, HMOs, Phone companys (3%). Highest, (15%) was Electric & Gas utilitys!
Interestingly 15% of the population believe the sun revolves around the earth ! !

By Peter Osmar (Pcosmar) on Monday, January 28, 2008 - 09:08 am:

I see The Media Blackout is working quite well, either some are grossly misinformed or have not been paying attention.

[QUOTE]"MY reason: There is not a genuine down-the-list conservative, among the GOP candidates. None of the candidates left are far enough right, and I could point out they are not conservative, what he did, voted ect. that is not conservative. "{/QUOTE]

There is a Conservative running. The only one as far as I can see. The "front runners" don't fit the description as far as I see.

Ron Paul is being ignored and he deserves an honest look, get past the Biased Bloggers and the media black out.

They say he is NOT a Republican. and yet he has been in office 10 terms as a Republican.
He is a Goldwater Republican and is in fact Endorsed by Barry Goldwater jr.
Take a look.

[QUOTE]Brief Overview of Congressman Paul’s Record:

He has never voted to raise taxes.
He has never voted for an unbalanced budget.
He has never voted for a federal restriction on gun ownership.
He has never voted to raise congressional pay.
He has never taken a government-paid junket.
He has never voted to increase the power of the executive branch.

He voted against the Patriot Act.
He voted against regulating the Internet.
He voted against the Iraq war.

He does not participate in the lucrative congressional pension program.
He returns a portion of his annual congressional office budget to the U.S. treasury every year.

Congressman Paul introduces numerous pieces of substantive legislation each year, probably more than any single member of Congress.{/QUOTE]

Add to that He has been Married to the same woman for 51 years.
Has just been endorsed by "jane Roe" for his steady and long held Pro Life position.

And yet when folks are speaking of the Republican field he is excluded.
It boggles the mind.

By Peter Osmar (Pcosmar) on Monday, January 28, 2008 - 09:51 am:

Some food for thought.
This was posted elsewhere, and is to be shared. I hope you like it as much as I did.

Be kind to Republicans
You know, if you liberals out there are half as compassionate as you claim to be, you’ll have pity on us poor Republicans this year. After all, we’re in an awful fix.

We’ve got a rich pretty boy shamelessly pandering to us, which usually perks us right up. Unfortunately, he’s a flip-flopper, about as funny as a crutch, and running on his record. That last part doesn’t sound so bad—until you actually look at it. Seems he started out a corporate raider laying Americans off, and wound up the governor who oversaw the costly, leaky, downright deadly Boston Big Dig.

We’ve got a preacher, too—and he has a sense of humor. That made us happy for a while. He’s dumb as a post, but that’s o.k. But then he went around hinting that he’d turn the Constitution over to the Southern Baptist Convention for some tweaking, and every protestant from the Presbyterians all the way to the Pentacostals know exactly what that means. You know they’ve got a special compound in heaven just for the Southern Baptists? Its because they think they’re the only ones up there.

We’ve got a fearmonger to keep us up at night, too. He’s great! He’s better than a horror movie—in fact, he looks like he ought to be in a horror movie. If Hollywood had gotten him to play Jason, they wouldn’t’ve needed that dumb hockey mask! The catch there is he can’t keep his manhood in his pants, he’s been divorced almost as often as Johnny Carson, and (worst of all) he’s from New York City.

Then there’s the guy a lot of people say is a war hero. We’ve been waiting all these years for him to get old enough to know better, but **** if he doesn’t still have foot-in-mouth disease. First he said he’d keep us fighting in Iraq even after all the oil’s long gone, which makes no sense at all. Then he tried to kick out the Chancellor of Germany and put the old head of the K.G.B. in her place, which makes even less sense. We just don’t think that’s why Reagan had them tear down that old wall. And now he went off claiming to know something about economics—but when he got asked a question about it, he came off making Miss Teen South Carolina look downright smart! Lord have mercy.

Then there’s that other guy. He’s so smart he’s actually figured out how to keep the old folks on Social Security. He not only likes the Second Amendment, he likes the other nine parts of the Bill of Rights, too. He’s so law-and-order he thinks even the politicians and the rich people ought to behave themselves. He’s so pro-family he’s delivered thousands of babies and he’s been married fifty-one years—to the same woman! He’s been in the House voting against tax hikes for two decades, and he’s turned down so many bribes that the lobbyists all call him Dr. No. No wonder all the others think he’s a kook. Why, he’s the most radical Republican since Abraham Lincoln himself!

He looks pretty damned good, but the press keeps saying he can’t win the nomination. Now, as often as we cuss about the media, you’d think we’d tell them to stick it and elect him just to shut them the **** up. But if we were brave enough to do things like that, they couldn’t call us “Ditto-Heads”.

To add insult to injury, there’s an establishment candidate in the race—trying to set up a dynasty, in fact—mouthing all the old cliches. We can’t vote for her, though—she’s the one thing we hated most about Bill Clinton!

So take a Republican couple to lunch. Feel our pain. Go the extra mile and buy us a nice autographed photo of Barry Goldwater off of ebay.

But whatever you do, don’t tell us that Barry Goldwater, Jr. is supporting Ron Paul. We might just nominate the good doctor—and beat you in the general election!

Originally Posted by,acptulsa

I edited a couple word for this forum.

By A. David Archibald (Yooperatheart61) on Monday, January 28, 2008 - 02:29 pm:

Peter Osmar
Simple answer is the GOP has been hijacked by the NEO-CONS and the right wing Christian wackos. John Dean addresses this in his book- Broken Government. He says a ton about this subject, after all he was a Barry Goldwater Conservative. I'm not a Republican but I could vote for John Paul without any trouble. The people running our government now are ruining it. From my point of view, I very happy that I don't have any children who are having their future sold out from underneath them.

By FRNash/PHX, AZ (Frnash) on Monday, January 28, 2008 - 03:37 pm:

As a Barry Goldwater Conservative myself since reading his The Conscience of Conservative in the early 1960's, I can still recommend the current edition: The Conscience of a Conservative


Description: Written in 1960, Barry Goldwater`s political best seller, in which he articulates his conservative positions, became a rallying point for his supporters when he ran against Lyndon Johnson in 1964. One of his key themes was the threat to individual freedom by what he saw as the unconstitutional encroachment by the federal government.

And furthermore, I've recently found this book, which has captured my sentiments quite precisely!: Invasion of the Party Snatchers - How the Holy-Rollers and Neo-Cons Destroyed the GOP by Victor Gold.


Publisher's Weekly Review ...
Make no mistake: author Gold, a former speechwriter for George H.W. Bush and aide to Barry Goldwater, is one disgusted Republican.

The GOP of the 2006 midterm election, he writes, is "a party of pork barrel ear markers like Dennis Hastert, of political hatchet men like Karl Rove, and of Bible-thumping hypocrites like Tom DeLay."

Gold looks to Goldwater, "a straight-talking, freethinking maverick," as the yardstick by which to measure just how far the party of Lincoln has fallen.

He traces the beginning of the end to the 1980 Republican National Convention and the presence of "a militant new element... personified by Pat Robertson and Jerry Falwell."

The other half of the equation, the neoconservatives, is embodied by Dick Cheney and Donald Rumsfeld, "two cuts from the same Machiavellian cloth."

In efficient prose, Gold scrutinizes a significant swath of recent GOP history, in particular Newt Gingrich's 104th Congress and the Bush II White House, without losing momentum.

He also has choice words for "the Coulterization of Republican rhetoric," the revolving door between Capitol Hill and K Street, and "sideshow" legislation like the Flag Protection Amendment.

Gold sees a promising future for the Republican Party, but not until they lose some major elections and are able to keep down a slice of humble pie; for those disillusioned with the state of the GOP, this quick, uncompromising polemic provides substantial support, along with a large dose of cold comfort. (Apr.)

David Hiltunen (Davidcorrytontn) on Monday, January 28, 2008 - 05:32 pm:

Ron Paul's philosophy, the best place to start is probably the Ludwig von Mises Institute, a libertarian think tank based in Auburn, Alabama. He don't get my vote because he cannot be depended on to protect this country from Islamic fascism.

Most voters had never heard of Paul before he launched his quixotic bid for the Republican nomination. But the Texan has been active in politics for decades. And, long before he was the darling of antiwar activists on the left and right, Paul was in the newsletter business. In the age before blogs, newsletters occupied a prominent place in right-wing political discourse. With the pages of mainstream political magazines typically off-limits to their views (National Review editor William F. Buckley having famously denounced the John Birch Society), hardline conservatives resorted to putting out their own, less glossy publications. These were often paranoid and rambling--dominated by talk of international banking conspiracies, the Trilateral Commission's plans for world government, and warnings about coming Armageddon--but some of them had wide and devoted audiences. And a few of the most prominent bore the name of Ron Paul.

Paul's newsletters have carried different titles over the years--Ron Paul's Freedom Report, Ron Paul Political
Report, The Ron Paul Survival Report--but they generally seem to have been published on a monthly basis since at least 1978. (Paul, an OB-GYN and former U.S. Air Force surgeon, was first elected to Congress in 1976.) During some periods, the newsletters were published by the Foundation for Rational Economics and Education, a nonprofit Paul founded in 1976; at other times, they were published by Ron Paul & Associates, a now-defunct entity in which Paul owned a minority stake. The Freedom Report claimed to have over 100,000 readers in 1984. At one point, Ron Paul & Associates also put out a monthly publication called The Ron Paul Investment Letter.
The Freedom Report's online archives only go back to 1999, but It was curious to see older editions of Paul's newsletters, in part because of a controversy dating to 1996, when Charles "Lefty" Morris, a Democrat running against Paul for a House seat, released excerpts stating that "opinion polls consistently show only about 5% of blacks have sensible political opinions," that "if you have ever been robbed by a black teen-aged male, you know how unbelievably fleet-footed they can be," and that black representative Barbara Jordan is "the archetypical half-educated victimologist" whose "race and sex protect her from criticism." At the time, Paul's campaign said that Morris had quoted the newsletter out of context. Later, in 2001, Paul would claim that someone else had written the controversial passages.

With few bylines, it is difficult to know whether any particular article was written by Paul himself. Some of the earlier newsletters are signed by him, though the vast majority of the editions seen contain no bylines at all. Complicating matters, many of the unbylined newsletters were written in the first person, implying that Paul was the author.

But, whoever actually wrote them, the newsletters seen all had one thing in common: They were published under a banner containing Paul's name, and the articles seem designed to create the impression that they were written by him--and reflected his views. What they reveal are decades worth of obsession with conspiracies, sympathy for the right-wing militia movement, and deeply held bigotry against blacks, Jews, and gays. In short, they suggest that Ron Paul is not the plain-speaking antiwar activist his supporters believe they are backing--but rather a member in good standing of some of the oldest and ugliest traditions in American politics.

The politics of the organization are complicated--its philosophy derives largely from the work of the late Murray Rothbard, a self-described "anarcho-capitalist" who viewed the state as nothing more than "a criminal gang"--but one aspect of the institute's worldview stands out as particularly disturbing: its attachment to the Confederacy, The League of the South, a secessionist group. The Politically Incorrect Guide to American History, a pro-Confederate, revisionist tract published in 2004. Paul enthusiastically blurbed about the book, saying that it "heroically rescues real history from the politically correct memory hole." Thomas DiLorenzo, another senior faculty member and author of The Real Lincoln: A New Look at Abraham Lincoln, His Agenda, and an Unnecessary War, refers to the Civil War as the "War for Southern Independence" and attacks "Lincoln cultists"; Paul endorsed the book in a debate over whether the Civil War was necessary (Paul thinks it was not). In April 1995, the institute hosted a conference on secession at which Paul spoke; previewing the event, "We'll explore what causes secession and how to promote it." Paul's newsletters have themselves repeatedly expressed sympathy for the general concept of secession, "the right of secession should be ingrained in a free society" and that "there is nothing wrong with loosely banding together small units of government. With the disintegration of the Soviet Union, we too should consider it.

By Marianne Y (Marianne) on Monday, January 28, 2008 - 06:08 pm:

Let's just say that I would vote for anyone who is currently running in either of the two major political parties, who might be running against Ron Paul. When my son was bugging me about Ron Paul the last time, and I told him that, he could not quite believe it at first. When he understood that was how much I dislike Ron Paul, he has backed off completely. I do not remember Paul's being quite so reactionary until the last couple of years. I could not trust him now for anything, not even dog catcher, as he is now. ALL of the major candidates currently running, either Democrat or Republican, would ba an improvement over that scary person, IMHO. (I did know him back in the 1970's, and he has radically changed since then, to the point that I have almost wondered if he has suffered a very serious head injury or something?) This is not meant as a put-down for anyone, except perhaps for Ron Paul. I think he will be finding himself in a real pickle for remaining primaries, where he can get no cross-over vote from Independents or Democrats at all, at least in theory.

By Peter Osmar (Pcosmar) on Monday, January 28, 2008 - 06:43 pm:

David Hiltunen
Wonderful,you managed to find the only slimy hit piece that has been used against Ron Paul.
Since He can not be attacked on his record or personal life, this circulates every now and again. The racist newsletter has also been throughly DEBUNKED
The NY times ran it first and also ran a retraction.
It was not written by Dr. Paul, but by a staff writer,and that writer was fired.
At the time it was written Dr.Paul had left office and was back in private practice, he had no hands on control of the letter. He did not even know that some of this was written till much later.
But nice try at digging some slimy dirt on the only man running for office that still respects the Constitution.
BTW, that war you love so much was sold on FALSE Information.
935 lies, you can base your view of the war on all the false imfo you like.
It still had nothing to do with terrorists, or National Security.

By Peter Osmar (Pcosmar) on Monday, January 28, 2008 - 06:54 pm:

Marianne Y
Since he is the ONLY Conservative running in this race you may be surprised.
He took 2nd in Nevada (registered Republicans only)and either 2nd or possibly 1st in Louisiana ( seems they are having trouble counting there).
Those were registered Republicans only also.
He has been gaining despite the media blackout and some GOP (neo con) dirty tricks.
We will most probably go to a brokered Convention, then anything can happen.

By Matt Karhu (Matt_k) on Tuesday, January 29, 2008 - 01:58 pm:

Thank you, Peter Osmar, for telling it as it really is. Too many people believe the authentic sounding propaganda about decent and honorable citizens such as Ron Paul. It is as if Hitler's propaganda ministers have been resurrected to publish misinformation for the right-wing radical element in the U.S. Wake up America!

By David Hiltunen (Davidcorrytontn) on Tuesday, January 29, 2008 - 09:46 pm:

I repeat,There is not a genuine down-the-list conservative, among the GOP candidates.

By Theresa R. Brunk (Trb0013) on Wednesday, January 30, 2008 - 07:06 am:

And so did Rush Limbaugh "There is not a genuine down-the-list conservative", among the GOP candidates. © 2008 Newsmax. All rights reserved.
January 22.2008

By Peter Osmar (Pcosmar) on Wednesday, January 30, 2008 - 07:54 am:

Well considering the Media Blackout and the flat refusal of any of the talking heads to honestly discuss Ron Paul it is no wonder.
What is your criteria for a "Conservative Candidate"?

I might mention that the Official endorsments to date include Barry Goldwater J. And "Jane Roe" Norma McCorvey has endorsed his pro life positions.

[QUOTE]I support Ron Paul for president because we share the same goal, that of overturning Roe v Wade. Ron Paul doesn’t just talk about being pro-life, he acts on it. His voting record truly is impeccable and he undoubtedly understands our constitutional republic and the inalienable right to life for all. Ron Paul is the prime author of H.R. 300, which would negate the effect of Roe v. Wade. As the signor of the affidavit that legalized abortion 35 years ago I appreciate Ron Paul’s action to restore protection for the unborn. Ron Paul has also authored H.R. 1094 in Congress, which seeks to define life as beginning at conception. He has never wavered on the issue of being pro-life and has a voting record to prove it. He understands the importance of civil liberties for all, including the unborn.[/QUOTE]

By Theresa R. Brunk (Trb0013) on Wednesday, January 30, 2008 - 09:42 am:

Sorry Pete I am not interested in answering your question. I was only putting to rights the mention of Dave H. stolen "quote", again using someone else opinion as his own. And not giving credit where due.

By k j (Kathiscc) on Wednesday, January 30, 2008 - 09:43 am:

Peter Osmar- well, that is certainly a reason NOT to vote for Ron Paul. Keep your laws off my body. Shall we go back to coat hangers in dark alleys? A man has no right to tell me if I can get an abortion. They really wouldn't understand. If I need an abortion, I'll get one anyway, legal or not. Let's keep it legal, so women aren't dying. Maybe we could neuter all sex offenders. See how far that gets.

By Deb S. (Usedtobeayooper) on Wednesday, January 30, 2008 - 07:22 pm:

When I took the test that's being sent around via e-mail about seeing which candidate you most agree with, my top 3 choices were Republicans. HOWEVER, they didn't ask crucial questions about the economy, abortion, etc. Ron Paul was #2 on my list. If more questions were asked, he wouldn't have even MADE the list!!! I'm with you Kathi, coat hangers worked out so much better. And I liked your suggestion about what we should do to sex offenders even more.

By David Hiltunen (Davidcorrytontn) on Wednesday, January 30, 2008 - 09:07 pm:

(Arlo Guthrie has just endorsed Ron Paul.) Peter asked (What is criteria for a "Conservative Candidate"?)Do you think the Media actually want conservatives to nominate somebody that can beat Democrats? One must learn how to analyze the media.You may have hit on something here Mr.Osmar.
I said,"He don't get my vote because he cannot be depended on to protect this country from Islamic fascism." I must now sit and ponder if that is good enough reason not to get behind him.

By Peter Osmar (Pcosmar) on Wednesday, January 30, 2008 - 10:06 pm:

[quote]I said,"He don't get my vote because he cannot be depended on to protect this country from Islamic fascism[/quote]

This also concerns me.
But to analyze it I have to look at how we got here , as well as how we deal with it.
We have been involved in that area of the world for a long time, 50+ years of intervening in other countries.
We over threw the Government of Iran and set up a puppet government. We armed their enemies. We have played both sides of some conflicts. It is no wonder that we have made enemies in that area of the world.
The question I have now , is more bombing going to make them our friends? Maybe it is time to change our policy and try to diffuse some of the anger.
It seems that our present course is only making more enemies.
How many lives will be lost trying to prop up a government and police a civil war?
Can we afford it?

By k j (Kathiscc) on Thursday, January 31, 2008 - 10:06 am:

By Deb S. (Usedtobeayooper) on Wednesday, January 30, 2008 - 07:22 pm:
When I took the test that's being sent around via e-mail about seeing which candidate you most agree with..... here's the link-

By Peter Osmar (Pcosmar) on Thursday, January 31, 2008 - 10:42 am:

I understand the abortion issue. It is a very divisive issue.
I would like to see it taken out out the hands of the Federal Government, and given back to states.

[quote] “ I am strongly pro life. Life begins at conception ... but, I do not believe this should be a federal matter. All issues of life and violence and crime and murder are dealt with at the local level. ”
Ron Paul.[/quote]

I am 50 yrs.old and have no children.
The only child I ever fathered was killed by an abortion. The girl did not want to be FAT during bikini season.
There are times when it has a place ( rape or incest) but not as a convenience or birth control.
I would like to see it used a lot less.

By Kathy P. (Katiaire) on Thursday, January 31, 2008 - 11:16 am:

The abortion issue is a hot topic. It should remain as it is...a personal choice. No one is being forced to have an abortion. Rather each person can make their own choice and be responsible for that decision.
Again, we need more choices, not fewer.

By Michael Du Long (Mikie) on Thursday, January 31, 2008 - 11:52 am:

Pete, You have my condolences about your lost child. I am the richest man in the world with my children and eight grandkids. Try to see them as often as possible. Never was one for abortion, but I don't agree that the goverment can tell people what to do. It is a personal thing, one that I never would condone but one that I have understood since its inception. My religion condems abortion and should, but my goverment should not intervene. I feel bad that Edwards is no longer in the race, he is the only democrat I could vote for.

By k j (Kathiscc) on Thursday, January 31, 2008 - 11:58 am:

By Peter Osmar (Pcosmar)..."I am 50 yrs.old and have no children.
The only child I ever fathered was killed by an abortion."
The father? Why didn't the father wear a condom? Then there would have been no need for an abortion.
Look. I'm 55 years old. Have been through menopause. Couldn't get pregnant if I had to. Still pro-choice. I remember what it was like before. I remember women dying (or disfigured for life) from botched procedures. Keep it safe. Keep it legal.
Accidents happen (especially with inexperienced teenagers). Rape happens. Incest happens. For whatever reason an unwanted pregnancy happens, it should still not be any business of politicians. It should not be decided at a local level. It should be a woman's right. The right to choose. And there certainly should not be a man that can tell a woman she can't or shouldn't get an abortion.
The only child I ever had, had to be placed for adoption because I couldn't get an abortion-it wasn't legal then. I was 15 years old, didn't know what I was doing, there was no sex-ed then. I was forced into giving her up because you didn't do things like that then. They even kicked me out of school so as not to be a bad influence on the younger children. Do you know what it's like to carry a baby for 9 months and have her ripped from your arms right after she's born? Do you know what it's like to wonder where your child might be, every day, if she's even alive?

Pro-choice. Don't care the circumstance.

By A. David Archibald (Yooperatheart61) on Thursday, January 31, 2008 - 12:11 pm:

Well said Kathy P. An awful lot of the right wing only want their own particular options to be available on a good many issues. Nobody is passing a law that would make them do anything against their own moral values,except if it is against their moral values to allow other to do have some different choices!!!

By Peter Osmar (Pcosmar) on Thursday, January 31, 2008 - 01:23 pm:

I have heard the "claim" of SAFE abortions.
It does not stand the light of day.
Do a quick Google search on "Botched Abortions" You can quickly find that they are not all that safe. there are hundreds of deaths of women, damaged women, lawsuits and families broken. It is hardly a record of safety.
Not much better than the coat hanger, just publicly acceptable and highly profitable.

By k j (Kathiscc) on Thursday, January 31, 2008 - 03:32 pm:

(Copyright 1996 National Abortion Federation & Susan Dudley, PhD)

Abortion is one of the safest types of surgery. Complications from having an abortion in the first three months of pregnancy are considerably less frequent and less serious than those associated with giving birth.

By k j (Kathiscc) on Thursday, January 31, 2008 - 04:18 pm:

It is still a surgery. Any time you go under general anesthesia, there can be complications. You talk about hundreds of women. Try thousands before it was legal. Look at statistics in developing countries where it is illegal. Many, many more die each year where it is illegal and they get them anyway. They will always get them anyway! I cannot believe you think it is not much better than a coat hanger. What are you smoking?

By Snowman (Snowman) on Thursday, January 31, 2008 - 04:49 pm:

Hmmm, abortion? How many of you have picked up the paper and read how many children are being abused. How many babies "discarded". How many children brought into this world without a chance.
Life is so hard but too hard if you are born into this world without love.

By David Soumis (Davesou) on Thursday, January 31, 2008 - 05:20 pm:

there are thousands of people that would love to adopt a kid, especially a baby.
Folks with unwanted kids have an outlet. Maybe there needs to be more education.
Suppose once you have a baby and decide to keep it, there's not much anyone can do about how its raised...until many times its too late.

My daughter works with people that have problems...they have their kids taken away because they're going to prison, on drugs, alcoholics, mentally unstable, etc etc etc.
These kids, most of them, have some serious stuff going on. Many are abused, sexually, mentally. and physically. They grow up being in pretty rough shape.

Abortion would be the answer right up front, but perhaps it knowing when you cannot parent a kid properly.

Its one of those hard to do anything about circumstances.

By David Hiltunen (Davidcorrytontn) on Thursday, January 31, 2008 - 07:15 pm:

Abortion is a Hot Topic. I am in favor of what Pete said. But not what Archibald said about Right wingers, at least this one, me. I will be 57 here in afew weeks, so I go back to the times when young women were wisked away if they became pregnant. I never had any of this near me in my family, adoption either. Thank goodness. But if I had fathered a child at a young age, I know I would have moved Heaven & Earth, & the fire down below to see that child live, and not be aborted like a failed mission, or adopted out. Not every teen born back in my day's had loving caring parents, who laid it out to you, made you understand about the facts of life. I do have children. At age 24 1975 I had three, married living the American Dream. Afew years later I was Divorced. (Another thing that was shameful and frowned upon in those days.) I moved away, and only got to see our children afew times a year. I didn't get the chance to be a father in a home for very long, and for some time until 1989, now I am 38 have a 4 and 5 year old in the house and got to play Dad. It was wonderful for me, and for them so they say. Here it is 2008 I am soon to be 57 and have 10 Granddaughters. Two of my daughters have one child each and never been married. Abortion or adoption was not necessary.

Kathy and me are friends because of Pasty Central.And hope we can remain so! KJ said it is a woman's right to have a abortion. Only women can give birth, a man is needed for this to happen, (or at least his boys are) So it's half her's and half his. So if the man wants not to abort, man has no say what so ever, just because he can't carry to term? Seems to be unfair to rob him of being a Dad, if he so wants to be the soul provider and caregiver he should be able to. I don't really care if there are abortions or not, unless I am involved in it. If the woman's life is at stake or the babies, then it must be done for health reasons. I don't want to see Federal funding for abortions, there in lay's the problem. Here is a rotten thing to say. Crime is down in the inner cities where there are many abortions in years past. The little buggers got cut out before they became criminals. Look on the brite side.

By Peter Osmar (Pcosmar) on Friday, February 1, 2008 - 10:15 am:

Though Abortion is a "hot button" issue, the personal views of a Candidate are irrelevant.
The President simply does not have the authority to change it.
There are much more important issues the effect this whole Country. To discount a Candidate on his personal views on this one issue while ignoring the fact that we are facing an economic meltdown, and the real possibility of WW111, makes little sense.
Unless we get back to a sound Economy and some sane Foreign Policy it will make little difference.

By Russell E. Emmons (Russemmons) on Friday, February 1, 2008 - 01:52 pm:

"HATS OFF" to Pete Osmar for the very direct comments on these issues! We need more of this instead of being politically correct and respectful of the right wings opinions. They certainly have no qualms of bashing and even insulting Liberals and Democrats quite regularly these days. These type emails I keep getting are appalling. From what I hear most go to Republicans on purpose.
Hats off also to Matt Kurhu and Dave Archibald who share most of my opinions! Mr. Archibald you could gladly include me on your list of those here you stated some time back. I stand with those folks and their thoughts for the most!

I'm now very anxious to read Victor Golds book as my intuition as such told me for quite some time.
I've had several arguments/discussions with Dave Hiltunen regards this!

As a very disillusioned ex-Republican for the above reasons, I now find an appeal for several reasons to Ron Paul also! The above 2 negative comments regards him are surprising and the first I've ever heard. Even the "Progressive" Liberal radio talk shows I listen to speak very respectfully of him. This area in SE Mich. where I live has many proponents and his signs are all over lawns! Much more then any other candidate of either party!

I have been following this thread right along and have/had much to say but for one I type really slow and mainly after just turning 70 and getting a meager SS retirement check (because of many of the previous discussed employer, health etc. discussions), I find now that with the cost of fuel, insurances, household expenses etc. etc. out of this world I must work every chance I can to make ends meet so just don't have the time to sit and type as much as I would like to! What really burns me is that I know of or even know some Right Wingers who talk the talk against Government involvement, public dole, welfare etc. but are milking from the system every chance they can!

Anyhow more on this later, I have to get out and shovel/plow snow with my little blade on the mower! Certainly can't afford to hire someone!

By Deb S. (Usedtobeayooper) on Friday, February 1, 2008 - 08:35 pm:

Kathi, I just want you to know that I just read what you wrote (haven't been on the computer for a while) and it is so well written and so insightful. Kudos to you girl!!

Mikie, I too am saddened that Edwards has dropped out. He was definitely my candidate of choice. Now I must do some studying.

By G. Tasky (Gtask51) on Saturday, February 2, 2008 - 10:26 am:

1: Ron Paul does not value equal rights for minorities. Ron Paul has sponsored legislation that would repeal affirmative action, keep the IRS from investigating private schools who may have used race as a factor in denying entrance, thus losing their tax exempt status, would limit the scope of Brown versus Board of Education, and would deny citizenship for those born in the US if their parents are not citizens. Here are links to these bills: H.R.3863, H.R.5909, H.J.RES.46, and H.J.RES.42.

2: Ron Paul would deny women control of their bodies and reproductive rights.Ron Paul makes it very clear that one of his aims is to repeal Roe v. Wade. He has also co sponsored 4 separate bills to “To provide that human life shall be deemed to exist from conception.” This, of course, goes against current medical and scientific information as well as our existing laws and precedents. Please see these links: H.R.2597 and H.R.392

3:Ron Paul would be disastrous for the working class. He supports abolishing the Federal minimum wage, has twice introduced legislation to repeal OSHA, or the Occupational Safety and Health Act and would deal devastating blows to Social Security including repealing the act that makes it mandatory for employees of nonprofits, to make “coverage completely optional for both present and future workers”, and would “freeze benefit levels”. He has also twice sponsored legislation seeking to repeal the Davis-Bacon Act and the Copeland Act which among other things provide that contractors for the federal government must provide the prevailing wage and prohibits corporate “kick backs.” Here are the related legislative links: H.R.2030, H.R.4604, H.R.736, and H.R.2720

4: Ron Paul’s tax plan is unfair to lower earners and would greatly benefit those with the highest incomes.He has repeatedly submitted amendments to the tax code that would get rid of the estate and gift taxes, tax all earners at 10%, disallow income tax credits to individuals who are not corporations, repeal the elderly tax credit, child care credit, earned income credit, and other common credits for working class citizens. Please see this link for more information: H.R.05484 Summary

5:Ron Paul’s policies would cause irreparable damage to our already strained environment. Among other travesties he supports off shore drilling, building more oil refineries, mining on federal lands, no taxes on the production of fuel, and would stop conservation efforts that could be a “Federal obstacle” to building and maintaining refineries. He has also sought to amend the Clean Air Act, repeal the Soil and Water Conservation Act of 1977, and to amend the Federal Water Pollution Control Act to “restrict the jurisdiction of the United States over the discharge of dredged or fill material to discharges into waters”. To see for yourself the possible extent of the damage to the environment that would happen under a Paul administration please follow these links: H.R.2504, H.R.7079, H.R.7245, H.R.2415, H.R.393, H.R.4639, H.R.5293, and H.R.6936

6: A Ron Paul administration would continue to proliferate the negative image of the US among other nations. Ron Paul supports withdrawing the US from the UN, when that has not happened he has fought to at least have the US withdrawn from the United Nations Educational, Scientific, and Cultural Organization. He has introduced legislation to keep the US from giving any funds to the UN. He also submitted that the US funds should not be used in any UN peacekeeping mission or any UN program at all. He has sponsored a bill calling for us to “terminate all participation by the United States in the United Nations, and to remove all privileges, exemptions, and immunities of the United Nations.”Ron Paul twice supported stopping the destruction of intercontinental ballistic missile silos in the United States. He also would continue with Bush’s plan of ignoring international laws by maintaining an insistence that the International Criminal Court does not apply to the US, despite President Clinton’s signature on the original treaty. The International Criminal Court is used for, among other things, prosecution of war crimes. Please see the following links: H.R.3891, H.AMDT.191, H.AMDT.190, H.R.3769, H.R.1665, H.CON.RES.23, and H.R.1154

7: Ron Paul discriminates on the basis of sexual orientation and would not provide equal rights and protections to glbt citizens. This is an issue that Paul sort of dances around. He has been praised for stating that the federal government should not regulate who a person marries. This has been construed by some to mean that he is somewhat open to the idea of same sex marriage, he is not. Paul was an original co sponsor of the Marriage Protection Act in the House in 2004. Among other things this discriminatory piece of legislation placed a prohibition on the recognition of a same sex marriage across state borders. He said in 2004 that if he was in the Texas legislature he would not allow judges to come up with “new definitions” of marriage. Paul is a very religious conservative and though he is careful with his words his record shows that he is not a supporter of same sex marriage. In 1980 he introduced a particularly bigoted bill entitled “A bill to strengthen the American family and promote the virtues of family life.” or H.R.7955 A direct quote from the legislation “Prohibits the expenditure of Federal funds to any organization which presents male or female homosexuality as an acceptable alternative life style or which suggest that it can be an acceptable life style.” shows that he is unequivocally opposed to lifestyles other than heterosexual.

8:Ron Paul has an unnatural obsession with guns. One of Paul’s loudest gripes is that the second amendment of the constitution is being eroded. In fact, he believes that September 11 would not have happened if that wasn’t true. He advocates for there to be no restrictions on personal ownership of semi-automatic weaponry or large capacity ammunition feeding devices, would repeal the Gun-Free School Zones Act (because we all know our schools are just missing more guns), wants guns to be allowed in our National Parks, and repeal the Gun Control Act of 1968. Now, I’m pretty •••• certain that when the Constitution was written our founding fathers never intended for people to be walking around the streets with AK47’s and “large capacity ammunition feeding devices.” (That just sounds scary.) Throughout the years our Constitution has been amended and is indeed a living document needing changes to stay relevant in our society. Paul has no problem changing the Constitution when it fits his needs, such as no longer allowing those born in the US to be citizens if their parents are not. On the gun issue though he is no holds barred. I know he’s from Texas but really, common sense tells us that the amendments he is seeking to repeal have their place. In fact, the gun control act was put into place after the assassinations of JFK, Martin Luther King, and Robert Kennedy. Please view the following links: H.R.2424, H.R.1897, H.R.1096, H.R.407, H.R.1147, and H.R.3892.

9:Ron Paul would butcher our already sad educational system. The fact is that Ron Paul wants to privatize everything and that includes education. Where we run into problems is that it has been shown (think our current health care system) that this doesn’t work so well in practice. Ron Paul has introduced legislation that would keep the Federal Government “from planning, developing, implementing, or administering any national teacher test or method of certification and from withholding funds from States or local educational agencies that fail to adopt a specific method of teacher certification.” In a separate piece of legislation he seeks to “prohibit the payment of Federal Education assistance in States which require the licensing or certification of private schools or private school teachers.” So basically the federal government can’t regulate teaching credentials and if states opt to require them for private schools they get no aid. That sounds like a marvelous idea teachers with no certification teaching in private schools that are allowed to discriminate on the basis of race. He is certainly moving forward with these proposals!Remember his “bill to strengthen the American family and promote the virtues of family life.” or H.R.7955? Guess what? He basically advocates for segregation in schools once again. It “Forbids any court of the United States from requiring the attendance at a particular school of any student because of race, color, creed, or sex.” Without thinking about this statement it doesn’t sound bad at all. But remember, when desegregating schools that this is done by having children go to different schools, often after a court decision as in Brown Vs. Board of Education. If this were a bill that passed, schools would no longer be compelled to comply and the schools would go back to segregation based on their locations. Ron Paul is really starting to look like a pretty bigoted guy don’t you think?

10:Ron Paul is opposed to the separation of church and state. This reason is probably behind every other thing that I disagree with in regards to Paul’s positions. Ron Paul is among those who believes that there is a war on religion, he stated “Through perverse court decisions and years of cultural indoctrination, the elitist, secular Left has managed to convince many in our nation that religion must be driven from public view.”1 Though he talks a good talk, at times, Ron Paul can’t get away from his far right, conservative views. He would support “alternative views” to evolution taught in public schools (i.e. Intelligent Design.) We’ve already taken a look at his “bill to strengthen the American family and promote the virtues of family life.” or H.R.7955 Besides hating the gays he takes a very religious stance on many other things. He is attempting to force his beliefs on the rest of America, exactly what he would do as president.

By Snowman (Snowman) on Saturday, February 2, 2008 - 10:44 am:

11. Ron Paul's blood type is WD-40.

By Deb S. (Usedtobeayooper) on Saturday, February 2, 2008 - 10:55 am:

As I said, had that internet test delved into some deeper questions that really count in this election, Ron Paul would never have made my list.

Agreed, Snowman!

By Peter Osmar (Pcosmar) on Saturday, February 2, 2008 - 12:08 pm:

In response.And by the numbers.
1. Ron Paul values equal rights to each and every individual under the Constitution.
He opposes special treatment for any groups.The Constitution was written to prevent the will of a majority from violating the rights of an individual.
He opposes giving citizenship to the children of criminals in this country illegally.

2. The laws in place presently would charge an individual with murder for the death of an unborn child. There is a murder case in the news where a man is being charged with two murders, one for the mother and the other for the UNBORN child.
The Law does see an unborn child as a life.
Ron Paul seeks to protect all life.
He has also stated that it is not the place of the Federal Government to interfere in what are laws of crime and punishment of the States.He wishes to return the issue to the States.

3.He wants the Federal Government out of ALL Private contracts. He wants the Federal Government to be Bound By the Constitution Of The United States.
The government has no business in private property, or private contracts.
It is there to Protect the Rights of the individual.
Government regulations, subsidies, and interference are the problem, not the solution.

4.That is just silly.
How does eliminating the Income Tax harm the low income?
He wants to get rid of income tax entirely.
He has been working to cut taxes where ever possible, but his goal it to eliminate it all together.

5.Private Property. Property rights. If some one is harming your property you have a recourse though the law. Companies have been sued for damage, and have changed their practices.This works in the Free Market,and is consistent with private property rights.
It is not the place of the Federal Government to violate the rights of property owners.
He remains consistent to the Limited Powers of the Government.

He also is apposed to the North American Union,as spelled out in the Counsel for Foreign Relations roadmap "Building a North American Community".
He wants to maintain our National Sovereignty.
He wants to stay out of the UN wars,and other conflicts. Our military should be for the purpose of defending and protecting the United States, Not fighting other peoples wars, or for protecting private corporate interests.
He is opposed to a One world Government and the New World Order.

7. Once again. He is for protecting the rights of the Individual. He does not recognize "Group rights",but only Individual Rights.
He is opposed to the Federal Government getting involved in any thing absolutely necessary and within the limits of the Constitution.

8.Ron Paul is the most staunch supporter of the 2nd Amendment in Office today.
This was the issue that introduced me to him.
The second Amendment is what gives the rest of the Constitution it teeth. It has been attacked and eroded since the 1930s or before. The disarming of America is a direct cause of much violent crime. In every place where guns are outlawed crime has gone up. In every place where gun laws have been relaxed and personal carry allowed, crime has gone down.
Criminals like disarmed victims.
Gun Free zones should be renamed. You don't see crazed gunmen attacking gun stores or shooting schools.
They go where everybody is disarmed.

9.Ron would return schools to local and parental control. Having a huge bureaucracy and a "one size fits all" approach is the reason for both the high cost and low quality of schools. Once again this is something that the Federal Government has no business in, It needs to be returned to local control.

10.Separation of Church and state?
You would have to show me that.
The way I read it it says,
[quote]Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof[/quote]
I know of NO law that either establishes any State religion, nor any that is Prohibited.
Nor do I know any place that Dr. Paul has advocated either.

It seems that you are in favor of a socialist system in which a Big Brother controls every aspect of your life.
I personally like the Constitution of The United States, with the limits put on Government and Guarantees of Liberty..

By A. David Archibald (Yooperatheart61) on Saturday, February 2, 2008 - 01:57 pm:

Deb S. I absolutely agree with your 10:55am post. There is still somethings that I fundamentally agree with Dr. Ron Paul on, but there is apparently far more that I disagree with.

By G. Tasky (Gtask51) on Saturday, February 2, 2008 - 02:35 pm:

Pcosmar: Thank you confirming to me and all to see that Mr. Paul is a raving madman and a lunatic.

If you want to be left alone and have government out of your personal business then I would hardly recommend a candidate who advocates taking away a woman’s reproductive rights, does not support equal rights for all citizens, and who would push his religious viewpoints on the rest of us. That is hardly freedom.

I gave ten reasons I am not voting for him it's for others to digest and decide. I appreciate your right to free speech, but you have stated your point, saying it over and over trying to be heard above everyone like a peddler selling a healing potion on a street corner serves no purpose.

So there you have it, please take the time to thoroughly review the records of all the people running for office so you know where they really stand. Ron Paul has good rhetoric and he opposes the war but he’s not a good man in the human rights sense of the phrase. He is pretty much like every other fringe candidate but more insidious.

This will be my last post regarding this topic.

Please all, be informed and please vote.

By Snowman (Snowman) on Saturday, February 2, 2008 - 02:44 pm:

Gtask51, Bravo, well said.

By A. David Archibald (Yooperatheart61) on Saturday, February 2, 2008 - 02:48 pm:

Gtask51, I also say Bravo,Bravo,Bravo!!

By k j (Kathiscc) on Saturday, February 2, 2008 - 02:53 pm:

Thanks, Geno.

By Deb S. (Usedtobeayooper) on Saturday, February 2, 2008 - 03:19 pm:

Gtask! Hip, hip, hooray!!!

By Peter Osmar (Pcosmar) on Saturday, February 2, 2008 - 03:22 pm:

Making a conscious choice to believe misrepresentations,distortions and outright lies seem to be the consensus. It is a habit of both "R"and "D".

Maybe America is dead.

By Eugene Zuverink (Zube) on Saturday, February 2, 2008 - 03:41 pm:

Why is there even a subject, on Ron Paul, What a whole lot of wasted typing. He dosen't and never did have a snowballs chance in Florida.Why even discuse him.
Gene in Wayland

Gene in Wayland

By FRNash/PHX, AZ (Frnash) on Saturday, February 2, 2008 - 04:16 pm:

G. Tasky (Gtask51) on Saturday, February 2, 2008 - 10:26 am:
1: … Here are links to these bills:
2. … Please see these links:
3: … Here are the related legislative links:
4: … Please see this link for more information:
5: … please follow these links:
6: … Please see the following links:
7: … (n/a)
8: … Please view the following links:
9: … (n/a)
10: … (n/a)
11: … (n/a)

Sorry, I see no links here!

Which makes this look suspiciously like yet another instance in this discussion of something copied and pasted from an external, unidentified (uncredited) site, loosely masquerading as Gtask51's own pellucid prose. Were it that, however, presumably the links would be present.

Is this indeed a transcription from an external source without either attribution or permission? A copyright infringement?

By Snowman (Snowman) on Saturday, February 2, 2008 - 04:24 pm:

FRNash, this is a debate regarding Ron Paul not a homework assignment.

By Deb S. (Usedtobeayooper) on Saturday, February 2, 2008 - 04:42 pm:

LOL Snowman, but nicely said.

By Eugene Zuverink (Zube) on Saturday, February 2, 2008 - 05:11 pm:

There are four people in the run for President and there is no chance for anyone other than these four.
Hillary and Slick Willy, GOD forbid.
Barack Hussian Obama
George Romney
John McCain
Just recently Obamas church "Trinty United Church of Christ" in Chicago where he has been a member since 1980, honored "The Nation of Islam" who Louis Farrakhan is the head of. NOW! Louis Farrakhan is an absolute Racist, He hates Jews, Whites,and homosexuals.This church is commited to Africa, not America. Now this tells me, if Obama is a member, he goes along with this, if he didn"t he would get out.
I wonder why CBS NBC CNN ABC and the rest haven"t been on this, I wonder why.
George Romney is a Mormon, Richard Nixon was a Quaker, John Kennedy was a Catholic and so what.
If the Morman Church Honored Adolft Hitler, remember he also HATED Jews, these T V stations would be all over it, and wouldn"t let up.
These are the people to discuse.
Gene In Wayland

By Deb S. (Usedtobeayooper) on Saturday, February 2, 2008 - 05:20 pm:

Get your names straight, Gene. George Romney, MITT'S dad, was the governor of Michigan. MITT is the one running for President!!!

Maybe if this isn't on the news it's because it's not true. Just a thought!!!!!!

By G. Tasky (Gtask51) on Saturday, February 2, 2008 - 05:25 pm:

For those wanting to look up every reference to the "links" I mentioned regarding Ron Paul's legislation I will post The links.

For those that want to look up any Representative or member of Congress here is the link.


Hopefully thses show up as links or I guess I am just going to flunk out of forum posting 101.

For, FRNash/PHX, AZ (Frnash) Knock yourself out.











By FRNash/PHX, AZ (Frnash) on Saturday, February 2, 2008 - 05:34 pm:

Snowman (Snowman):
"FRNash, this is a debate regarding Ron Paul not a homework assignment."

Geez, Louise, not Snowman (Snowman) of all people!

Every once in a while, someone here forgets the PastyCam's Acceptable Use Policy, quoted here in part:


"Avoid posting copyrighted materials not in keeping with the owner's policy of use."

If that caveat could be more clearly worded, please advise.
FRNash/PHX, AZ (Frnash) on Saturday, February 2, 2008 - 05:49 pm:

Eugene Zuverink (Zube):

1. What Deb S. (Usedtobeayooper) said.

2. Barack Hussian Obama = Barack Hussein Obama

G. Tasky (Gtask51):

As you might see from my previous post addressed to Snowman (Snowman), it wasn't about the absent links — they were just the clue to the real issue!

By Peter Osmar (Pcosmar) on Saturday, February 2, 2008 - 05:59 pm:

Though I doubt the detractors will take the time, here is some reading those that have an open mind.

i believe it is worth the read.

By Snowman (Snowman) on Saturday, February 2, 2008 - 06:11 pm:

FRNash, sorry, to err is only human. Can we still be friends?

By Deb S. (Usedtobeayooper) on Saturday, February 2, 2008 - 06:47 pm:

OH yeah, FRNash, I meant to correct the Hussein thing too. Thanks for the help. LOL

By Eugene Zuverink (Zube) on Saturday, February 2, 2008 - 07:30 pm:

Oh my my my I stand corrected . you Democrats are sooo pickey.
Deb, you know it is true, all you have to do is look it up. Thats a silly argument.
Gene in Wayland

By Eugene Zuverink (Zube) on Saturday, February 2, 2008 - 08:15 pm:

It's good that we have two proof readers in Deb and FRNash, that just keeps everything honest.
Gene in Wayland

By k j (Kathiscc) on Saturday, February 2, 2008 - 08:15 pm:

This is a link to Obama's church.(google Obama's church) http://www.tucc.org/about.htm

This is a link to where that church honors Farrakhan

Just FYI.

By k j (Kathiscc) on Saturday, February 2, 2008 - 08:18 pm:

P.S. I copied and pasted those links.

By G. Tasky (Gtask51) on Saturday, February 2, 2008 - 08:21 pm:

Pcosmar: I took the time to read the whole thing, thought it was a little lean, but I found a little meat to chew on.

For Instance I did not know that, in Texas, it is illegal to take three sips of beer at a time while standing. How dare they!! Now that is an infringement on my rights. Good thing I never knew that when I lived there.

Here is a link to a site that has a cost of the war in Iraq counter. Interesting, what we could do with the money spent over there.


God Bless America

By Deb S. (Usedtobeayooper) on Saturday, February 2, 2008 - 08:32 pm:

Sorry Gene, but it's Mitt who's running for President, not George. And I found the Hussein thing funny. No offense meant, honestly.

By Eugene Zuverink (Zube) on Saturday, February 2, 2008 - 09:06 pm:

Thanks K J for putting that link on here , that is one of them I was talking about. DEB please read it, you may change your thinking. DEB I know it is Mitt, I was just having a senior moment. I remember very well when his Father George was Governor of my state. Hope my spelling is all right.
Gene in Wayland

By Russell E. Emmons (Russemmons) on Saturday, February 2, 2008 - 09:27 pm:

WOW! Now I'm really confused! Maybe sorry now I even mentioned Ron Pauls name! Sure have never heard all this! Just wanted to be fair and a little nice to the Righties here and state that he does--did seem to have some admirable qualitys.
All the things G.Tasky states sound then like the same ol, same ol right wing rhetoric in one form or another and not unlike much of Bushes administration. If only a portion of what G.Tasky states is true---forget it then, or as Gene says---not worth the typing! My main point/comment was regards the neo-con/holy roller thing which I believe IS the main thing to be concerned about these days.

My candidate would have been Edwards!

BTW None of the above links open/come in on my pasty.net connection! I get the Home page, legal, US Gov. etc. links at the top of the page and thats it!

By Peter Osmar (Pcosmar) on Saturday, February 2, 2008 - 09:47 pm:

Russell E. Emmons (Russemmons)

Ron Paul Is a Conservative, A Goldwater Conservative, and follows closely the Taft wing of the Republican party.
The reason he seems so different is there hasn't been a Conservative candidate for some time.
Rudy was rejected because he was too obvious a socialist. And an authoritarian socialist at that.
Mccain and Romney are trying to play themselves off as Conservative, but they are not, and their record proves it.
Dr.Paul is a Constitutionalist, with libertarian leanings.

As for his religion, Well he speaks for himself here.
I have never been one who is comfortable talking about my faith in the political arena. In fact, the pandering that typically occurs in the election season I find to be distasteful. But for those who have asked, I freely confess that Jesus Christ is my personal Savior, and that I seek His guidance in all that I do. I know, as you do, that our freedoms come not from man, but from God. My record of public service reflects my reverence for the Natural Rights with which we have been endowed by a loving Creator.

By Peter Osmar (Pcosmar) on Saturday, February 2, 2008 - 09:52 pm:

G. Tasky (Gtask51)

The Cost of War is a good link.
You have a point about the waste in Iraq, not just in money but in lives.
However this is not a new point, it has been raised and rejected by both parties.
As proof I offer this.

November 24, 1997

Neutrality and dialogue, not intervention, will secure peace
US foreign policy is senseless, derived from propaganda and ignores fact By US Representative Ron Paul
In recent weeks we have seen politicians and media personalities begin to beat the drums of war. While the overthrow of Iraq's Saddam Hussein would undoubtedly be a positive event for that nation and the world, those who have fervently called for American involvement and intervention have misunderstood the problems and ignored the costs.

Most fundamentally, U.S. foreign policy toward Iraq is flawed; it totally ignores history, and reflects a lack of understanding of long-time justifiable Arab distrust of the West. The Middle East has been savaged and ruled by outsiders for a thousand years, and U.N. quick-fixes will only aggravate the understandable resentment of those seen as foreign infidels by the Arabs.

Regardless of how we may judge the merits of each war or occupation over the past 1000 years, the Arab mind is deeply influenced by the history of Roman, European, and now American meddling. Even the current borders between Middle Eastern countries have been imposed and enforced by outsiders without regard to the history of the region. This is not to argue who is right or who is wrong in each dispute but to emphasize the long-standing nature of the conflicts in the region that prevents a solution coming from the West. Arabs see U.N. policy as U.S. policy, and believe it to be anti-Arab, something that U.S. bombs only re-enforce.

There is no direct national security interests for us to be in Iraq. We are not the policeman of the world, we can't afford it, and our interventionist efforts usually backfire. Our policy in this region has been designed more to promote the United Nations than to deal with any threat to our national security. Control of the region's huge oil reserves is a much more important factor than U.S. security.

Also see
US must not trample Constitution to attack Iraq
February 16, 1998

Unconstitutional wars gravest of crimes
December 21, 1998

These warnings were from the Clinton era, long before 9/11. We now know that Iraq had nothing to do with 9/11 , and was sold by the Media with 935 lies.
It was not just Bush's War, as the plans were in place before he was elected.

The voice of warning was ignored.

By Eugene Zuverink (Zube) on Saturday, February 2, 2008 - 09:59 pm:

A new FOX poll, I know some of you will say, ya sure FOX poll. Anyway, Hillary Clinton is the candidate most likely to do anything including something unethical to win, and most likely to embarrass the United States.
44 percent put Clinton in that category.
11 percent Romney
9 percent McCain
8 percent Obama
28 percent unsure.
So be it
Gene in Wayland

By Deb S. (Usedtobeayooper) on Saturday, February 2, 2008 - 10:00 pm:

Russ, my candidate was Edwards also. Don't know where I'm heading now. I think if he'd have stayed in the race, the other two would have eventually shot themselves in the foot. Now we'll never know.

Gene, I did read the link that Kathi put on here. And I really don't know how you know what I'm thinking. I just threw out there that maybe it's not being reported because it's not true. I never said that I didn't believe it. I still don't know what to believe because you can't believe everything you read or hear. I will say that I didn't like what I read. However, I really don't know why the media isn't jumping on this if there's any truth to it. It doesn't make sense. They make mincemeat out of everybody else, why not him?

As I said, I don't know where I stand as of this moment. I've always known who I wanted to vote for every other year. This year is definitely different. I'll probably go to the caucus on Tuesday and hear what everybody has to say. Maybe I'll be able to make a decision, but I doubt it. This may be one of those years where you really don't know who you're voting for until you pull the crank, blacken the circle, or whatever it is you have to do where you vote.

By G. Tasky (Gtask51) on Saturday, February 2, 2008 - 10:43 pm:

Regarding the Fix oops Fox Poll interesting even with that response when it came to question #16 they chose Clinton.

16. Which presidential candidate do you think is most prepared to begin leading the country on day one of taking office?

Clinton 34%
McCain 31%
Obama 17%
Romney 8%
(Don’t know) 10%

Full poll link below.


I'm gonna get the dart board out so I can practise who to vote for.

By Eugene Zuverink (Zube) on Saturday, February 2, 2008 - 10:45 pm:

Deb, I said you might change your thinking , if you would read some of the things that CBS NBC CNN ABC do not put on the air, WHY? because they are Democratic stations. I don't know what you are thinking, but it is very easy to tell you are a Democrat, and that is fine, and easy to tell I'm a,guess? Keep reading

By David Soumis (Davesou) on Saturday, February 2, 2008 - 11:15 pm:

this is all pretty amazing to me...

Ron Paul doesn't have a hare paws chance in h-e-l-l to even influence the election, much less win it.
The powers that control elections are just letting him spout off so it looks like we have a democracy here.

I wouldn't vote for any of the 4 remaining candidates. Its a rotten shame that we have to pick from a cut-throat business tycoon, pretty boy, silver spoon fed... an old, has been, warmongering, POW...and I do respect the fact he went through what he went through...anybody surviving that has to be respected, but he's way too hawkish to get things back under control...
a waffling woman that bends and sways in whichever direction is necessary to maintain power and get what she wants, with no apparent conviction, and a black guy that doesn't have enough experience to even warrant consideration...and has questionable business partners...looking at the list, maybe Obama has the least baggage, although McCain, even though a Republican, has some progressive ideas, and if it weren't for his warrior stance, may be a good president.

If I could be assured the neo-cons would be out of the picture, I might vote Republican for McCain. I lost a lot of respect for him, however, when he changed his tune and started supporting Bush even though it was totally against the rhetoric he had been spouting previously, plus the fact Bush pretty much cowtowed his butt after the 2000 campaign last time and made him look pretty meek, like a little puppy dog. I've never seen anything so pitiful. Maybe that's the past military thing where you stand up for your commanders. Colin Powell did pretty much the same thing.

What to do, what to do. Maybe write in somebody. That would be unique...50 million write-in votes because nobody really likes anybody.

By David Soumis (Davesou) on Saturday, February 2, 2008 - 11:27 pm:

oops...sorry, I forgot the right wing religious fanatic that wants to change the constitution so we have a theocracy and doesn't believe in evolution...he's pretty much a warmonger too...nuff said.

By Russell E. Emmons (Russemmons) on Saturday, February 2, 2008 - 11:49 pm:

The main stream media cannot be Democrat/left. They are behooven to the large right wing Corporations who pay for their commercials! If anything they are more right because of this simple sponorship $! dealings. Some of the newscasters, individuals in the networks may be leftys true or a few programs (ie: "Saturday Night Live") This notion of the media being left oriented stems from righties not wanting to hear what is truly going on so calling the media left is just another form of denial! At the most main stream media is neutral as it should be. (except for Fox of course)

There are very few left wing, Progressive talk radio shows contrary again to what you may hear. Almost all the talk radio shows are right wing.
There are no "Progressive" talk radio in the UP or the NLP or in Wisconsin. A few in Texas(!), and almost none in the deep south. This should tell you something!

By FRNash/PHX, AZ (Frnash) on Sunday, February 3, 2008 - 01:47 am:

My Barry Goldwater Conservative [see FRNash/PHX, AZ (Frnash) on Monday, January 28, 2008 - 03:37 pm above] instincts find a lot I appreciate about many of Ron Paul's positions, yet in some other respects he strikes me as a dangerous whackjob, with less than a snowball's chance in Phoenix of being elected. Not unlike that other Texas "Banty rooster" I must admit that I actually voted for in the Presidential election of 1992, thereby aiding and abetting the election of Bill Clinton. Eeek! Now that should have taught me what one gets by voting for third party candidates!

David Soumis (Davesou): I absolutely love your descriptions of the remaining candidates. Right on! To which I hasten to add Bill Maher's observation on this week's Real Time With Bill Maher on HBO (quoting approximately):


John McCain spent five years in prison [albeit in a north Korean POW camp] before running for elective office, unlike so many others who do it in the opposite order!

Oh, and speaking of that waffling woman candidate, will someone please explain to me what constitutes Hillary's claimed 35 years of "experience" qualifying her for the office of President of the United States? Being Bill Clinton's wife? Her involvement in the Whitewater matter? Travelgate? Filegate?

And last but not least, I can't resist this one:
Russell E. Emmons (Russemmons): "behooven?"

I have a hunch you meant beholden.

Deb S. (Usedtobeayooper) on Sunday, February 3, 2008 - 09:04 am:

Oh my gosh, David, what great descriptions of these people. Like you, I actually think McCain is the best choice left. I used to like him a lot also, before he starting smooching the butt of the elected president. He was totally against everything Bush stood for until he dropped out of the election. All of a sudden he's Bush's buddy? What's that all about? You are so right when you say that if he'd go back to the way he was BEFORE Bush's presidency, he might be the right guy for the job. I wish he weren't so old though. Might we end up with another Alzheimer's president? And then it would depend on who he would choose to be his VP. I've been hearing rumors that it could very well be Huckabee. Not sure how I feel about all of that.

AND, I don't see where the TV affiliates are left wing. I've always found them to be right wing. They push the Republicans in my opinion. So Gene, by my watching the television news, I don't believe I'm hearing great things about the Democratic candidates and not so great about the Republican. They seem pretty equal to me, however, there is that hint of leaning to the right.

And Gene, if I had to guess, I'd say you're Republican. You can't stand Hillary and Obama, but that doesn't make you unique. You seem to stand behind Bush, which to me is unbelievable! Other than that, you seem to keep pretty mum.

And anybody who votes for an independent candidate just helps one of the other candidates to. One you probably didn't want in there. We need a legitimate 3rd choice who could actually win.

By k j (Kathiscc) on Sunday, February 3, 2008 - 09:44 am:

Mitt Romney.

By G. Tasky (Gtask51) on Sunday, February 3, 2008 - 11:13 am:

Amazing year, elections are always a war of rhetoric. Some choose to believe it some don't.
Some depending on what they hear last.

I was in medical sales for years, we always said the Dr's. made their decisions on whoever brought them donuts last.

I don't think Mitt can win it, although history would say he should have the best chance. He's a former governor. Kennedy was the last sitting Senator to win the presidency. Since that time it's either been a Governor or a Vice-President.

Senator's have voting records that can be checked. So good luck in this years election.

My suggestion:

Monica Lewinsky's
Ex-Boyfriend's Wife
For President in "08"

By Deb S. (Usedtobeayooper) on Sunday, February 3, 2008 - 11:21 am:

Did anybody else figure it out???? I think he meant Hillary!!! LOL

By Eugene Zuverink (Zube) on Sunday, February 3, 2008 - 12:14 pm:

You are so right Deb, I can't stand Hillary, Obama, so so. Hillary uses the black people so much, just like Bill did, again today she is going to three black churches. After the election is over they will never see her again.
I don't know how you could tell I am a Republican. No I don't go along with everything Bush does, far from it. But he still is my President. Some one has to do it, but why would anyone want that job.There is no thanks to it, no matter who is President,you never here, my he is doing a great job, people are always finding fault. I have lived through thirteen Presidents, so you can tell what a young whipper snapper I am. Is there anyone of you that thinks were going to find a perfect one, or one that satisfies everyone,or will do everything just the way we want. We have to vote for someone, we can't say,Im not going to vote this year because no one is worth it, thats a bad way to look at it even if you have to vote for someone to try to stop someone else.

My choice would be McCain or Romney.
Clinton just doesn't seem like the person you could beleive,well I know she has Thirty five years experience of change."ya sure" trying to change her husband.
Obama, where is the experience.
So said Gene in Wayland

By Russell E. Emmons (Russemmons) on Sunday, February 3, 2008 - 12:35 pm:

I did mean "BEHOOVEN"! My big fat Websters Lexicon dictionary defines: Behoove(n), Behove--
"advantage; benefit; profit; use; to be necessary, convenient for; to befit; to be morally necessary to; to be suitable to".

BEHOLDEN would work too!-----"under an obligation; bound in gratitude; owing a debt of gratitude".

Almost not worth the time and typing, but I don't want to look like a complete simpleton out here

By Deb S. (Usedtobeayooper) on Sunday, February 3, 2008 - 12:44 pm:

I can't go along with a president who shouldn't even be in office when you come right down to it. He did NOT win the popular vote, nor did he win Florida. There was cheating going on there and I think everybody knows it. I often wonder how things would be different if we hadn't have suffered having George as president. The man is a simpleton in my book. He has done absolutely nothing for this country. He's always been so worried about getting Hussein out of control that he hasn't really thought about his own country falling apart around him. They say we're going to be destroyed from within. It's my opinion that he's doing his best. I hope and pray we make it safely to election time. I'm sure I'm going to get lambasted for this opinion but so be it. By the way, I don't believe he won Ohio in his 2nd run either. Something was fishy there also. Something about him looks to me as if he feels an entitlement. He's scared me from the beginning, and I remain scared.

By Kathy P. (Katiaire) on Sunday, February 3, 2008 - 01:07 pm:

I won't lamblast you, Deb. I agree with you.
Oh, GW took care of his friends...those in oil, those involved in "rebuilding" Iraq (Haliburton),
and the other weathly moguls. He has all but destroyed the school system with his "no child left behind" fiasco. I have not heard one teacher favorably comment on that. And who wants someone with his finger on the botton who can't pronoune nuclear

By Deb S. (Usedtobeayooper) on Sunday, February 3, 2008 - 01:25 pm:

Just this last week, 3 more schools had to close out here. It's getting so bad. There's just no money for them. They have to merge with other schools and then that makes so many kids in a class that there's no way for any one on one. And you're right, "No Child Left Behind" is a joke. I always knew it would be and it's turned out I was right. Something needs to change. I can't tell you how many schools have had to close their doors out here.

By Snowman (Snowman) on Sunday, February 3, 2008 - 01:46 pm:

Speaking of Hillary, did you know that yesterday on a campaign trip, Hillary suggested that she knows how to deal with evil and bad men, like Osama bin Laden, because she had to put up with her husband. Which explains why Hillary wants to look for bin Laden at the nearest Hooters.

By Eugene Zuverink (Zube) on Sunday, February 3, 2008 - 01:54 pm:

Deb or anyone, the Democrats have had control of congress for the last year, please tell us one GOOD thing they have done, Bush doesn't have the last say, congress does. Yes I know he can veto.
Gene in Wayland

By Deb S. (Usedtobeayooper) on Sunday, February 3, 2008 - 02:01 pm:

Yes, he has the veto power and he's used it.

By Eugene Zuverink (Zube) on Sunday, February 3, 2008 - 02:16 pm:

Bush wanted the NCLB bill, Guess what, HIllary voted for it and so did Ted Kennedy, so why is it all Bushes fault, and now there not funding it like they should, Bush gets whacked for everything, is it Bushes fault companies are leaving United States,NO blame the unions, they have pushed and pushed on these companies until they can not afford to stay, but it's Bushes fault
Gene in Wayland

By Deb S. (Usedtobeayooper) on Sunday, February 3, 2008 - 02:23 pm:

Okay, if you insist, it was Bush's fault!!!

Sorry, Gene, I couldn't resist!!!

By G. Tasky (Gtask51) on Sunday, February 3, 2008 - 02:26 pm:

Gene in Wayland

You may find this article intersting.


By Deb S. (Usedtobeayooper) on Sunday, February 3, 2008 - 02:54 pm:

That was very interesting Gtask! I guess they're not doing as badly as people are being led to believe. And what do you expect out of them with such an egotistical president, for crying out loud? He's "The Decider" after all.

By Eugene Zuverink (Zube) on Sunday, February 3, 2008 - 02:59 pm:

Pork and more pork, Interesting Tasky, But why would you think they only have a 6% approval?
Good come back Deb, I like that
Gene in Wayland

By Eugene Zuverink (Zube) on Sunday, February 3, 2008 - 03:11 pm:

I think Bush has vetoed only 8 times, Slick Willy 37 times

By Deb S. (Usedtobeayooper) on Sunday, February 3, 2008 - 03:23 pm:

Bill had to deal with a Republican Congress a lot longer than George has had to. But I guess that doesn't count.

By Deb S. (Usedtobeayooper) on Sunday, February 3, 2008 - 03:24 pm:

Oh yeah, and our country was in much better shape then than it is now. I guess maybe the vetoes were for the good. George's are for his own sick agenda.

By Russell E. Emmons (Russemmons) on Sunday, February 3, 2008 - 03:25 pm:

Deb, I won't lambaste you either! My sentiments exactly! It doesn't matter what is or isn't his fault. Way enough though to be more then concerned! If he (Bush)has nothing to hide, why is he hiding everything?

By Deb S. (Usedtobeayooper) on Sunday, February 3, 2008 - 03:30 pm:

I think they only have a 6% approval rating because nothing's getting accomplished thanks to our not so dear president. Apparently, though, more is getting accomplished than we were led to believe. Read the article!

By Snowman (Snowman) on Sunday, February 3, 2008 - 03:34 pm:

Well at least our next president, whomever that that may be, will at least have an IQ over 20.

By G. Tasky (Gtask51) on Sunday, February 3, 2008 - 03:34 pm:

6%...I don't think so..Depending on source you'll see it's in the 18 to 26% range.

The Fox News poll referred to last night has it at 22%.


Approval polls are like roller coasters. I don't put much stock in them.

Reminds me of a book I read long ago.

How to Lie With Statistics By Darrell Huff

Numbers can be twisted to make them mean anything you want.

Like 9 out of 10 dentists approve of this or that.

By Snowman (Snowman) on Sunday, February 3, 2008 - 03:36 pm:

Okay FRNash, beat ya to the punch, one too many "thats". That's all folks.

By Michael Du Long (Mikie) on Sunday, February 3, 2008 - 03:38 pm:

Ok Gene I finally got my dander up. The unions are not to blame for out sourcing. Blame the congress and Slick Willie for NAFTA and other legistation making the move to other countries extremly profitable for these companies. How many of the companies that have moved off shore are union represented? Not that many. A strong union makes a strong company. Profit before treating your family of workers is more important to these companies. Had the unions not bargained in benifets like medical insurance you wouldn't have it in non union shops. Why, you ask? No company gives anything to its employees out of their generosity. The non union shops had to offer some of the same benifets as the union shops or they wouldn't be able to attract good workers. I have been on both sides of the bargaining table and know how management felt about having to provide a decent wage and working conditions to the employee. Had Reagan not broke the unions back, with his firing of the Air Trafic controllers we would have stronger unions. The unions need leaders like they had back in the begining of the union movement. Now all the unions have become providers of manpower, not the social lions they started out to be. Gene if you want to go back to that type of life move to one of the country's that are providing the sub standard and dangerous, in some cases, products that we consume. Our goverment is not protecting us from this poor workmanship. Try to live on a dollar a day and I bet you wont be driving that nice car and living in the house with heat, water, and even sewers. Bet you wont have that television with the two thousand channels either. Okay go ahead and tear me apart. I am proud of having been an American Auto Worker. We are not the enemy here.

By A. David Archibald (Yooperatheart61) on Sunday, February 3, 2008 - 03:40 pm:

"W" doesn't veto,he uses signing statements. You need to study the real reason companies have left the country. The unions were just used as an excuse,so the companies could leave,in order to maximize their profits. Japan,Europe all pay more then we do.Haven't you ever wondered why their are so many Japanese and European Tourists. Executives are the ones that are grossly over paid in our country, not the workers who have to work more than one job to make a living in a great many cases. When Mercedes brought Chrysler, Eaton was CEO and make 51 million , while the CEO of Mercedes(starts with a Zie something)made only 3 million.

By Snowman (Snowman) on Sunday, February 3, 2008 - 03:42 pm:

Mikie, I'm right behind you on that one! AMEN!

By Deb S. (Usedtobeayooper) on Sunday, February 3, 2008 - 03:45 pm:

LOL, Snowman!

Way to tell 'em Mikie!

It's about time somebody else got in on this discussion. I think Gene and I were getting sick of each other. Well, maybe not. It's been fun!

By Deb S. (Usedtobeayooper) on Sunday, February 3, 2008 - 03:46 pm:

Forgot you, David. Way to go!

By Michael Du Long (Mikie) on Sunday, February 3, 2008 - 03:58 pm:

I was going to vote for Edwards but since the Democrats have decided to have a love fest with Obama and Clinton, I will be voting for either McCain or Romney. Both have baggage that I find objectionable, but not as bad as either Clinton or Obama. Thanks to the people who agree with me, and I hope that others open their eyes and contact your congess people to let them know that we need some relief here in Michigan. We were the bastion of Democracy in both world wars and now we are buying arms from other countries. The big three went all out during the second war and now we wouldn't have the ability to supply a major war. The people who have bought from Japan, Korea, and now China are the people who have caused the collapse of Michigan, not our govenor. We won the war but lost the peace.

By A. David Archibald (Yooperatheart61) on Sunday, February 3, 2008 - 04:07 pm:


Great Post- UAW Local 1200 here(Tank Arsenal)

By Deb S. (Usedtobeayooper) on Sunday, February 3, 2008 - 04:07 pm:

Yes, Michigan has taken a beating and needs relief desperately. I would hope that Romney would be the one to take care of that since he's from Michigan, but I really don't think he's going to get the nod. For some reason, they're pushing McCain. I don't understand that at all. He's about 150 years old, and we need somebody younger. That's just my opinion. Depending on who he picks for his running mate, and I'm hearing rumors of Huckabee, we could be in trouble should something happen to him. I'm still sad that Edwards is no longer running. I think the Democrats made a huge mistake there.

By Russell E. Emmons (Russemmons) on Sunday, February 3, 2008 - 04:12 pm:

Mikie: Before the Civil War there really wasn't a middle class, just the haves and have nots. With the advent of the unions then came the middle class!

By G. Tasky (Gtask51) on Sunday, February 3, 2008 - 04:32 pm:

Surprised to hear people say they would have supported Edwards in Michigan. I just read something a few days ago that said some thing like, "The unemployed auto workers would have run Edwards out of town on a rail for his hatred of, and adversity toward, big business."

I guess the retirees from GM are the only ones doing well in that state, I know many guys that used to work for them and they called it, Generous Motors.

GM closed plants in Michigan long before NAFTA was signed, and Kodak, Zenith and many other companies were long gone before that.

NAFTA just was another nail in the coffin.

I worked in the iron ore mines for short time in the 70's and our work very much relied on the auto workers.

Now you have Cleveland Iron Co. shipping ore to China and who knows where. It's all about the all might dollar. Not sure who mentioned it, but remember that the next time you see all these tourists over here spending what should be our money.

By Snowman (Snowman) on Sunday, February 3, 2008 - 05:02 pm:

Another excellent post Gtask51! This political forum is much more informative than listening to Hillary rant and rave about a bad hair day.

By FRNash/PHX, AZ (Frnash) on Sunday, February 3, 2008 - 05:35 pm:

"… listening to Hillary rant and rave …":

Oh, you must have heard her screech, er … speech at a town-hall style meeting at Cesar Chavez High School in Laveen, AZ on Tuesday, January 22, 2008

No, I wasn't there, but the snippet I heard on the radio sounded like she was in the running for this year's "(Howard) Dean Scream" award, rather than in the Democratic Presidential primary.

By A. David Archibald (Yooperatheart61) on Sunday, February 3, 2008 - 05:45 pm:

Deb S

Couldn't agree more ! !

By Eugene Zuverink (Zube) on Sunday, February 3, 2008 - 05:57 pm:

Michael, are you telling me you do not but any of these products, you don't shop at WalMart.
I'll say it again, the unions have pushed the wages up so high in this country, you have to own a gold mine to buy an autombile.Why is so much of the auto industry moving out., cheaper wages.The auto industry people make what, 25 35 dollars an hour, and most other smaller shops maybe 12 15 bucks,but they have to pay the same for a gallon of gas as the guy that makes 35 dollars an hour.No I don't intend to move to another country, I'm very well satisfied here, but it sure as •••• sounds like some of you are not. I can remember years ago, A General Motors plant in Grand Rapids wanted tooth paste in the bathrooms in there contract, what a crock.
Gene in Wayland

By Deb S. (Usedtobeayooper) on Sunday, February 3, 2008 - 06:25 pm:

We do seem to agree about a lot of things, don't we A David???

By Michael Du Long (Mikie) on Sunday, February 3, 2008 - 06:35 pm:

No I do not shop at Wall Mart nor will I ever. I try to buy what I can made here, unfortunatly I can't get all my needs filled here since many of my fellow humans wont buy American. I was in the union and was in charge of bargening and there never was a time that I would waste my time or the company labor relations time talking about something as stupid as toothpaste in the bathrooms. I would how ever bargain in that the company would clean and supply basic toilet needs such as toilet paper and soap on a regular basis. I have met many people who have this idea that workers are coddled when they are in a union. I also have found that the people who complain the loudest are the ones who do not have the ability to hold down a job and are jealous of the ones who are fortunate enough to have a good paying job. Jealousy is a nasty feeling to have.

By A. David Archibald (Yooperatheart61) on Sunday, February 3, 2008 - 06:53 pm:

Deb S.

Absolutely!I graduated from Shattuck in Faribault, MN. Great Minds must think alike????

By Kathy P. (Katiaire) on Sunday, February 3, 2008 - 07:11 pm:

Mikie, I'm with you...I avoid WalMart and would like to avoid anything not made in the States; however, that is impossible.

And what's with the US exporting grain and then turning around and importing the same product?

By Eugene Zuverink (Zube) on Sunday, February 3, 2008 - 07:27 pm:

Michael, jealousy has nothing to do with it, thats not even right to say.Thats right,everyone doesn"t make 25 to 35 dollars an hour, on top of it for pushing a stinking broom, and I know a guy who wsa getting that at a G M plant, and if you were in the union you know it is true.
Again that has a lot to do with what is wrong. As far as insurance, most are covered for life, like our government people, how many other people are, not many, So jealousy has nothing to do with it, it' greed.

By Deb S. (Usedtobeayooper) on Sunday, February 3, 2008 - 08:01 pm:

David, I've only lived in Annandale for the past 21 years. I was born and raised in Lake Linden. The Yooper never leaves you, let me tell you. How 'bout you?

I wish I could avoid Wal-Mart, but on our salary, it's not possible. We have to buy where we get the deals. I have avoided buying a foreign made car, but what's the point there? Half of the parts for the car are made elsewhere anyway. It's ridiculous!

I'm with both Gene and Mikie here, greed plays a big part as well as jealousy! And it seems the rich get richer when Republicans are in office. Call if what you will.

By A. David Archibald (Yooperatheart61) on Sunday, February 3, 2008 - 08:13 pm:

Why have you brought into the propaganda of the wealthy and attack other people who worked for a living. You right about GREED but it the wealthy(and not all of them)who are the greedy ones. They know they are safe as long as we working people fight among ourselves instead of going after them . The tax schedule is written by them for their own benefit. Try and file the way they do and you will end up in jail. When they say they lost money, they are not starting at zero but at how much they made before,they are still making money when they report a "LOSS".Companies can and do make hundreds of million of dollars and don't pay any tax at all. They threaten to leave and are given huge tax breaks or receive them when they do move. Again I repeat why have you taken their side of the wage issue when they haven't done anything for you except what they had to.(unless you are lucky enough to work for one of the few companies that do treat their employees decent. When I worked for White Pine Copper Company I was very lucky to have a great boss who did treat me right. I was non-union because I worked in the Hospital and we couldn't strike, but we got the same benefits as the miners who were union.
The Banking,corporations, and the Military- Industrial Complex win when the middle and poor classes fight among ourselves. They love it!!

By Eugene Zuverink (Zube) on Sunday, February 3, 2008 - 08:37 pm:

David A, I don't really understand really what you are saying.I don't understand whose side you think I'm taking,I don't understand what you mean by"other people who worked for a living". Where is the attack? I worked for a living and was paid for my time. I managed for years.
I still don"t go along with the jealousy thing.Deb , your so mean to the Republicans.

By Eugene Zuverink (Zube) on Sunday, February 3, 2008 - 08:42 pm:

Well you fine folks, I'm going to watch the game awhile. Gene in Wayland

By Deb S. (Usedtobeayooper) on Sunday, February 3, 2008 - 09:03 pm:

We'll miss you Gene! I don't think I'm mean at all. I'm just being honest about the way I feel and how I see things.

Okay, back to watch the 4th quarter. What a game!

By Michael Du Long (Mikie) on Monday, February 4, 2008 - 11:24 am:

I spent forty years working starting as a pipefitter/plumber constantly working to improve myself to the point where I graduated from college and had worked many different jobs from being a union rep. to being a company rep. I don't think you can judge how much a person should make. There are people who cut my grass and make twenty dollars and are done in just ten minutes. I figure he is making at least forty bucks an hour. Same goes for the guy who roofs my house and charges me 15,000 dollars to do work that takes him and his employees a day to complete. Are you saying that they don't deserve the money they make? I think they do. Don't mind paying for what I get. I had to live in an area that I wouldn't live in to make a living for me and my family. Chrysler treated me better then my parents or anyone else ever did, they gave me a living wage, educated me, made it possible for me to send my three kids through college and to live in the house next to the big oak tree on the corner. I never had the life of living where I could just go into the woods or be on the lake fishing whenever I wanted to. I came from Hubbell and lived in the Detroit area not being able to raise my kids in the UP and in a small town atmosphere. I gave these up to earn a good wage and to take care of my family. My parents couldn't afford to educate me like my employer did. I worked for what ever money that I was paid for. Spent more hours in the plants then I wanted to so I was compensated for that. I worked six and seven days a week and on some occaisions twevle hours. So I feel I earned my wage. I also feel that I have earned my benifits that I am collecting now. If it wasn't for the unions do you think that we would have the protections that the govt. offers? Would there be any kind of unemployment insurance, do you think there would be any kind of wellfare? The unions were involved along with many religion and groups that were formed to take care of the poor and the underprivlaged. You and I both know no one gives anything away for free, companies want to make the most profits they can. The unions have made it possible to have a middle class, not only here but in Europe and in parts of the Orient. So this is how I feel just a small town boy who went to work for a large company and because of what the union did for me lives a good life.

By kay Moore (Mskatie) on Monday, February 4, 2008 - 01:40 pm:

Just peeked in to see what everyone's carrying on about these days. I've pretty much decided who I'll vote for tomorrow but my basic feelings are still the same. Vote for the lesser of (two) evils. Also noticed we continue to have those small-minded folks who mentioned Hillary's preoccupation with "her hair" and "her screeching"...Aw come on folks, do you still need to make it sound like a woman's description? Grow up guys! You're making yourselves look stupid. Does it make you feel bigger by cutting others down? There's my 2 cents worth. Now...back to your discussions.

By Eugene Zuverink (Zube) on Monday, February 4, 2008 - 02:14 pm:

Michael it sounds like you have a good life,You are one of the fortunate.Thats good for the grass cutter, but how much grass does he cut in the winter in MI.Thats good money for the roofer,but how many roofs do they do in the winter in Mi. Where is there pension and health care for life.
If you had a "Federal Government Job" or a "State Government Job" or a "Local Government Job" you will have pension and health care if you put in your time, and how would you get this,
Everybody can not work at "Chrysler" "Ford" or "General Motors". I beleive the retires end up with a pension and some health care, and that is paid for by every time we buy a new vehicle. I heard some years ago Chrysler added nine hundred dollars to every vehicle to cover benefits, must be a lot more by now. You know the small business man can not do this, so where is there pension and health care coming from. All the people in the UP could't head down state and work in the auto industry, it just wouldn't happen So there are stuck with high cost lower wages, is it fair, whats fair.
I think you understand what I am trying to say, TRYING Gene in Wayland

By Michael Du Long (Mikie) on Monday, February 4, 2008 - 03:01 pm:

Gene I think you are right about the low wages and high cost. When I was a kid we lived in Hubbell on Main Street and my dad worked for C&H for about fifty cents an hour. we had a nice home a used car, 1940 Desoto and a old Dodge milk truck. He had to work for the dairy in town in order to maintain some kind of life. Others in town did similar things. And people could raise their kids on these wages. Now people who work in lower waged positions with out benifets can not live in the way my parents did and I think it is a shame. People could work at Sears or Monky Wards and live a good life. Now they can't and it is because of the influx of forign products and the fact that the minimum wage is kept so low. A fifteen dollar an hour is considered to be a good wage in some industries. But it is hard to live on that amount, so we have to have two family incomes. One of the incomes must have benifets or the family can't make it. I worked hard to get what I have never asked anyone to help me. When I was laid off I found work as a plumber to keep us going. I would advertize in the stores that I would do plumbing cheaper then any one else. And I did. Having a small business is hard and keeping your head above water with all the rules put on small business it is really dificult. Well we both have stated our opinions and now I am ready to move on. How about them Red Wings.

By Tom (Tom) on Monday, February 4, 2008 - 05:49 pm:

This has become an interesting forum. Lots of conflicting ideas.
GM has insurance costs of $1500 per vehicle. The UAW is being forced to handle medical insurance themselves. With, of course, GM and Ford and Chrysler adding to the fund. It will be managed by the union. I am sure there will be some mis-management and theft in that system.
One of the things people don't realize is that it is consumer demand that determines what will be produced and how. Consumers aren't dumb. They make decisions about what they are willing to buy and what quality is must possess. Some consumers want high quality and thus pay a higher price. Others pay for a lower price product and many times get a lower quality. But the manufacturer cannot make them buy what they don't want.
The Wal-Mart argument always amuses me. It is some kind of moral principle that some people hang onto that requires them to not buy at Wal-Mart. But the vast majority of Americans are very happy to shop there and at other like stores such as Costco, etc. Employees of those stores prefer working there as opposed to working for a ma and pa store. They get better wages and the potential for advancement. Don't be surprised that some people like to work in retail sales. Others don't. Lucky for us.
Wages are based on the skills required to do a job. The exception is the assembly lines of the auto industry. The unions have, over time, forced wages to be higher for that group of unskilled wokrers as compared to the same skills sat non-union shops. That lasted for about 50 years. Competition from foreign sources began to see the lucrative profits in the auto industry and moved in. Consumers saw more efficient and lower priced autos and began buying them. Now the Big 3 are having a very difficult time competing with the Japaneses and Korean products. Note that the Toyota and Honda factories opted to not be part of the UAW. They accepted a lower wage in order to have the jobs at those plants.
Another idea: imagine what it would be like if we didn't have the powerful unions? Nothing would be as we see it now. Perhaps medical costs would be much lower. Without med insurance guaranteeing
doctors payment perhaps those fees would never have escalated so high.
Whenever you see prices of a product or service rising it is a sign of a shortage of that product/service. So health costs rise due to demand fueled by consumers using their health insurance for every runny nose, etc. That filled the doctor's offices to the bursting point.
So doctors raised there fees. And so did hospitals. That upward spiral continued for some decades. And so here we are now. Faced with the problem of what to do--------put the bill on the taxpayer, of course.

By Michael Du Long (Mikie) on Monday, February 4, 2008 - 06:35 pm:

Tom how about the college teachers/professors geting paid the way they do. How hard is it to get rid of one if they have tenure? Just about impossable right. Working what I would call part time. Had a lot of people with secondary degrees who were happy to get jobs working on the line since they couldn't make money in the academic world. Don't know how many of the people who work in colleges work the whole day doing the same boring job all day long. By the way now the new employees in the auto plants have a lower pay schedule then the people with seniority. One of the ways that companys keep good people working for their entire careers is to offer perks such as pensions and insurance after they retire. I bet as a retiree from a college you have both a good pension and health insurance. Bet you would be the first to complain if a foreign govt. gave tax breaks to their colleges to come over here and take your job away from you. Shoe would be on a different foot then. No one wants to loose their job, it is the hardest thing that will happen to a person. Most college employees here in Michigan are unionized along with the teachers. As far as unskilled workers that is not the way it is anymore. There are more skilled workers then there are nonskilled in the auto industry. Add management and the actual workers on the lines are the minority. Never worked the line, don't think I could either mentally or physicaly. It takes a special person to last thirty years doing the same thing all the time. The auto workers are the ones that every one says cause the problems here in the U.S. no one blames the schools or the colleges for our problems. No one blames the farmers who have had to raise their prices and rightly so. No one blames the medical or the guy who cuts the grass only blame the auto worker for the problems. We all are to blame for the status of the country. We voted most of the problems in ourselves. I would love to go back to the simple life of the forties and fifties. What did we have in our houses? Sure didn't have a tv in every room. Most of us didn't have cars. We were happy to have food on the table. None of us would have computers or cell phones if it wasn't for the fact that we are middle class and our life style has changed where we need to have all the things that we have. Someone said the auto workers are greedy, no more then anyone else. Everyone wants to have a better life then what our parents did. Now I guess I am finished and will go into the kitchen and clean it up. Put things into the dishwasher, clean the stainless steel stove and make sure I have cleaned the microwave also. All the things that we didn't have in the good old days.

By Eugene Zuverink (Zube) on Monday, February 4, 2008 - 06:47 pm:

Unions, I have no use for them. when they came in against Mr Ford before we were all born,maybe they did some good I do not go along with the saying, a strong union makes a strong company.Steelcase,a huge office furniture maker.,and Haworth, another huge office funiture maker,Knoll, another large office funiture, all in my area here,who our company did so much business with,they had no unions, wages were very very good, benefits were tops, they got a bonus every quarter and a large bonus in December..They treated there employees right, no need to have money taken out of there wages to pay someone else to bargain for them.I will say it again,that is a big reason the auto industry, is slowly moving out, closing plants, they can not afford to be competative in the states. they have pushed the wages and benefits up so high, and now they are paying for it. They have no job. And it is the same with any business, you get your goods up yo high and the consumer will stop buying. So be it

By Michael Du Long (Mikie) on Monday, February 4, 2008 - 07:40 pm:

Gene what kind of work do you do?

By Tom (Tom) on Monday, February 4, 2008 - 08:49 pm:

Michael, you think it is not easy for a college prof to lose a job? Tenure does not protect you from not doing a good job and being booted. There might be some procedures to follow but they will get the ax.
On the other hand, union-members almost never get fired because they have the legal personnel who will protect them.
What does it take to get a line job in the auto industry? A degree? No way. High school diploma? Maybe in some cases. Certainly not demanding.
And when a robot can do a person's job it is used. Robots don't take vacations nor need med insurance, and all those things. That happened as labor costs increased beyond reason.
Not all graduate degrees have much of a market. That is the problem of the various disciplines that turn out too many grads. So they flip hamburgers or work on garbage trucks or whatever it takes.
Nothing wrong with that. They make their own choices and take the chance they will find work in their chosen field.
I am not lucky enough to have all the perks you mention all paid for. I pay for my med insurance.
Lucky it is a group plan. I had to pay for my pension over the years I was employed. All my "pension" group did at the end was buy me an annuity based on life expectancy. I really have it made. My sister-in-law, a GM retiree has many perks---------one is internet access, prescription insurance where no matter the cost she pays only $5. She sure isn't complaining. But what she didn't do was invest. That is the key to the extras-----

By Michael Du Long (Mikie) on Monday, February 4, 2008 - 09:25 pm:

Tom I invested through out my life and now I am comfortable in my life. Never got anything in my life free. As far as union members go things there have eroded also. No longer are some of the useless workers guaranteed a free ride. If you are in management the benifets are paid for by you with the co pays that are involved. Not all the auto workers get free med. coverage. The few retired college people I know have better coverage then I do and don't pay anything for it. You know the old one about what does an English major ask you, want fries with that? My talents were used in one of the junior colleges here and I was paid $35 per hour. The regulars were paid more then I was. So do they need to make that much money? Some will argue that they do and some will argue that they don't need to be paid that much. Remember when the teaching profession was considered to be a womans job and was a part time job at that. Teachers now are paid closer to what they should be. I think jealousy is more of the problem that people complain about the union worker. Get over it.

By Eugene Zuverink (Zube) on Monday, February 4, 2008 - 09:51 pm:

Michael,I retired eleven years ago, now I just sit and watch the grass grow, not really.
My business was the wood working tooling trade.
We started tooling business in Grand Rapids some years ago.We imported the tooling from Leitz in Germany.We also manufactured some here.Leitz is the largest manufacture of wood working tooling in the world.Some years later Leitz wanted to buy us, so we sold to them. We have plants and sales offices in eight states now. My job was plant manager.This was tooling for furniture factories,not so much for the man in his basement

By G. Tasky (Gtask51) on Monday, February 4, 2008 - 09:58 pm:

Unions remind me of Republicans and Democrats. They all have done some good and bad for the country.

By Michael Du Long (Mikie) on Monday, February 4, 2008 - 10:32 pm:

Gene I am a wood worker and have been for some time. Spend more time in the shop then I should. When I retired the guys who worked for and with me gave me most of my new machines. I like to do pen turning. Spend most of the spare time looking for wood to turn. Pick wood up in the CC area when ever I see a piece sitting there looking like it needs a home. Do you do wood working now?

By Marianne Y (Marianne) on Monday, February 4, 2008 - 10:38 pm:

I have one comment, that supports neither side in the current discussion. It is just that in one case, a tenured, but totally incompetent college prof in Colorado, even when there was irrefutable proof that he had plagiarized the published works of others, among other things, because of the legal help offered to him, in essence, could not be fired. They tried to fire him, but the legal struggle was too much. It is my understanding that this person is now being paid his full salary and benefits, for doing nothing. He no longer is allowed to teach, or anything else, but he continues to collect his full paycheck and benefits from Colorado. Oh, BTW, if I remember correctly, he also claimed that he was part Native American, which helped get him hired in the first place. But, he had lied about that, too. He has no Native American Blood. He is only an imposter, in all he has done in his life. I just find it an interesting aside to the current topic.

By Heikki (Heikki) on Tuesday, February 5, 2008 - 06:06 am:

He was finally fired last year, Marianne. I can't find whether or not he received some kind of Golden Parachute even when fired, but my intuition tells me that was even thought of when signing his contract.

From Wikipedia.com:
On July 24, 2007, the University regents voted seven to two to uphold all seven of the findings of research misconduct, overruling the recommendation of Privilege and Tenure panel that two of them be dismissed. They then fired Churchill by vote of eight to one. The sole dissenter, Cindy Carlisle, had argued for the sanctions recommended by the majority of the Privilege and Tenure dismissal panel.[3][43]

Took a long time at great expense to dump this jerk. He was also a military imposter....the worst of the worst in our society. He was drafted in 1966 and was a vehicle driver and projectionist in Nam, and not a paratrooper and Long Range Recon Patrol member as he fed the press. This guy is phoney as they come.

By Matt Karhu (Matt_k) on Tuesday, February 5, 2008 - 09:16 am:

The comments about retirement, pensions, health care benefits, are interesting. I'm glad to see some folks had planned well for their retirement as I had. Totally company-paid pensions, life and health and dental care insurance, and stock options were standard perks for those of us hired to fill corporate management positions in the 60's and 70's. Competition for such jobs was tough, the work was demanding and often with stressful and long work days. Many of my associates (within and outside of the company I worked for) suffered from strokes and heart attacks before age 60 as a result of job-related stress. I know of no one in the higher level education profession who had similar job stress except a few who had reasons to worry about their job performance.

By Matt Karhu (Matt_k) on Tuesday, February 5, 2008 - 09:25 am:

I forgot to mention that the insurance benefits I and my associates received during our employment are also retirement benefits, we pay nothing for our health insurance, etc. It looks like those kind of employee benefits are gone forever.

By David Hiltunen (Davidcorrytontn) on Tuesday, February 5, 2008 - 12:35 pm:

Sons of Confederate Veterans, the spirit of Jefferson Davis lives in the Republican Party. Do you think that a lot of the fundamental principles that Jefferson Davis believed in are very important to people across the country?
Strom Thurmond, wonder if we had elected that man 30 years ago, we wouldn't be in the mess we are today.
There is at least two political type's who seems to have some youneak and workable ideas. That would be Newt Gingrich and Trent Lott. Maybe after the Clinton's get done with the White House for the next four years, these two gentlemen will get in to fumigate.

By Matt Karhu (Matt_k) on Tuesday, February 5, 2008 - 01:05 pm:

I'm glad to see someone else speak up for Gingrich and Lott. They were very capable Congressmen and they seem to have a sincere interest in seeing an end to the liberal, huge budget-busting Federal government growth that has been taking place under the Bush administration.

By G. Tasky (Gtask51) on Tuesday, February 5, 2008 - 04:42 pm:

Newt Gingrich was hypocrite is a hypocrite and will always be a hypocrite.

"Mr. Family Values is amazingly similar to Bill Clinton - both are pot smoking, draft-dodging adulterers from poor Southern families."

Check out Newt Gingrich's Skeleton Closet here


By David Soumis (Davesou) on Tuesday, February 5, 2008 - 05:17 pm:

Where is all that money going that Bush has been getting in the budget?
He's raped the social programs to the bone, and cut just about everything that might help a regular citizen.
I can't imagine electing someone that will make it even worse by cutting more.

How about cutting some of those pork programs. or maybe the military budget. Check out the soviets to find out why they went bellyup..it wasn't because of Ronald Reagans

By David Soumis (Davesou) on Tuesday, February 5, 2008 - 05:24 pm:

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By Snowman (Snowman) on Tuesday, February 5, 2008 - 05:41 pm:

Keep your fingers crossed that Edwards has a game plan of becoming Supeme Court Judge.

By David Soumis (Davesou) on Tuesday, February 5, 2008 - 06:04 pm:

Canadian healthcare myths exploded...now here's a fascinating article...Part 1...everyone should read this
Mythbusting Canadian Health Care -- Part I

By A. David Archibald (Yooperatheart61) on Tuesday, February 5, 2008 - 06:20 pm:

David Soumis
I have read article- Having relatives in Canada there is nothing wrong with their health care, that proper funding wouldn't cure. Sad about all the BS printed in our papers about the Canadian system. Keep up you great posts!

By Russell E. Emmons (Russemmons) on Tuesday, February 5, 2008 - 08:45 pm:

I live not far from the Canadian border here. We get the local Canadian TV & radio stations, their local papers. We know personally many of their people (including native Americans) who visit, shop, fish, birdwatch etc. often. We hear things first hand from them what they think, how the rest of the world feels about us and they know of many things going on in America that we don't. Things there are NOTHING as some would have you believe! It is embarassing to hear of some of how they feel about our administration and embarassing for themselves also to even say.

Dave H.---You are right, the spirit of Jefferson Davis---it's called the KKK!

On one hand I think it's time for a Yankee President for a change whatever party!

G Tasky: My sentiments exactly regards Gingrich ! !

Gene in Wayland: 13 presidents? Either I'm counting wrong, or forgot a President, but 13 makes you alive in Herbert Hoovers time? Gads, I thought I was old (LOL) having been born in FDRs time!

Deb: When you mentioned of McCains having changed, don't you suppose the Neo-Con/Holy Rollers discussed here that hijacked the Republican party got to him and said something to the effect, "look John, you gotta suck up, play ball, get with the program--or else!" It sure appears now they are cloning him to be another GWB! Yee Gads!

HEY has anyone wondered what happened to Carl Rove? He was hired (I think Today) by FOX News ! ! Now isn't that special?

By David Hiltunen (Davidcorrytontn) on Wednesday, February 6, 2008 - 12:22 am:

Why dose profit scare you liberals so much? I just don't understand it.

By G. Tasky (Gtask51) on Wednesday, February 6, 2008 - 08:02 am:

A Liberal Definition by John F. Kennedy:

September 14, 1960

"What do our opponents mean when they apply to us the label "Liberal?" If by "Liberal" they mean, as they want people to believe, someone who is soft in his policies abroad, who is against local government, and who is unconcerned with the taxpayer's dollar, then the record of this party and its members demonstrate that we are not that kind of "Liberal." But if by a "Liberal" they mean someone who looks ahead and not behind, someone who welcomes new ideas without rigid reactions, someone who cares about the welfare of the people -- their health, their housing, their schools, their jobs, their civil rights, and their civil liberties -- someone who believes we can break through the stalemate and suspicions that grip us in our policies abroad, if that is what they mean by a "Liberal," then I'm proud to say I'm a "Liberal."

By Matt Karhu (Matt_k) on Wednesday, February 6, 2008 - 09:03 am:

I wonder why the Democratic Party has quit using the term "progressive party", as it once was known. Maybe they are afraid people will start paying more attention to the various periods of time when the Democratic Party was more "regressive" than "progressive".

By Kathy P. (Katiaire) on Wednesday, February 6, 2008 - 09:13 am:

G. Tasky, thanks for the quote. I can even hear that Bostonian accent. JFK was the inspiration of my youthful days.

By Eugene Zuverink (Zube) on Wednesday, February 6, 2008 - 10:45 am:

Come on now Rusell,you have made it to 12 Presidents, My wife is your age, so I guess I married a young chick."From Munising" My year 1932,Just had a physical yesterday, Dr. told me I should easily live through McCain,Romney,or Hukabee,which ever one is our President.If you vote for one of these, and help out.
Gene in Wayland

By Eugene Zuverink (Zube) on Wednesday, February 6, 2008 - 10:51 am:

Great post Matt.

By G. Tasky (Gtask51) on Wednesday, February 6, 2008 - 11:05 am:

Start Each Day With A Positive Attitude...

1. Open a new file in your computer.

2. Name it "George Walker Bush".

3. Send it to the Recycle Bin.

4. Empty the Recycle Bin.

5. Your PC will ask you. "Do you really want to get rid of "George Walker Bush ?"

6. Firmly Click "Yes."

7. Feel better.

PS - Tomorrow we'll do Dick Cheney.

By Tom (Tom) on Wednesday, February 6, 2008 - 11:21 am:

Having read that article on Canadian Health I finally concluded that Canada must be next to heaven or the writer has a bias.
It is so much easier to have national health programs when the population is smaller and more homogeneous. Canada has somewhere around 40 million people. Mostly white, etc. The US has about 300 million people, and a greater mix of various ethnic groups. It is very difficult to find a middle ground on these issues that will result in a "good" program. It becomes watered down and thus not worth much.
The article implies very strongly that Canadian doctors are better than US. Yet for many procedures even the Canadians come to the US.
The other problem is taxes. One comment I read on this page alluded to that. If you pay higher taxes your plan can succeed with no glitches.
Sad to say, the only two things you can count on are death and taxes.
That bipartisan committee of senators is currently working on a health plan. Twelve senators, 6 from each party. So, we will see what they come up with soon.

By Eugene Zuverink (Zube) on Wednesday, February 6, 2008 - 11:23 am:

G Tasky, now you must write a letter of apology.
Gene in Wayland

By Eugene Zuverink (Zube) on Wednesday, February 6, 2008 - 11:30 am:

I was just sitting here,trying to respond to that Canadian Health artical, But Tom, nobody could have answered better, thanks.

By Heikki (Heikki) on Wednesday, February 6, 2008 - 12:38 pm:


Interesting link you provided. Being the eternal skeptic, I contacted an acquaintance of mine living in BC the past 25 yrs. (originally from UK) who teaches at a university in/near Vancouver, whom I consider to be level-headed and objective. He confirmed the accuracy of this article with a few caveats. In BC, he has experienced satisfactory coverage/services. He's 61 now, so has a good idea how the system works in BC, and he doesn't have any real complaints. However, he did state it isn't the same across Canada, because each province has much latitude in administering services. That's the reason for the variety of stories both good and bad regarding the Canadian system. So, I found another objective source that explains it better than he can:

It appears everything doesn't go through Ottawa, but rather each province, somewhat like certain states in the U.S. implementing their own system.
Some more food for thought.

By G. Tasky (Gtask51) on Wednesday, February 6, 2008 - 01:30 pm:

Eugene Zuverink (Zube)

Not sure as to why you think I need to apologize, but I will.

To any who may have been offended by my post regarding creating a file to delete our stumbling, bumbling, idiot of a President George Walker Bush, please accept my humble and heart felt apology.

By Snowman (Snowman) on Wednesday, February 6, 2008 - 02:18 pm:

Geno, apologize? You have got to be kidding me. As for writing a letter to Dubya, forget it - - he doesn't read too well.

I can't wait to do Dick Cheney tomorrow.

By Heikki (Heikki) on Wednesday, February 6, 2008 - 02:48 pm:

On JFK.....I remember him well. Was serving in the military overseas when he was assassinated. That was a sad day, for I loved the man. One of the first things he did was cut taxes to stimulate the economy. But, it was different times and his (my) party had different values. Since then, both have changed. The left has moved further left, and the right has also moved left. Today, I would peg JFK as a conservative Democrat or moderate Republican. I would vote for him again in a heartbeat. He made a few bad mistakes such as the Bay of Pigs invasion, but I never held that against him, for military action doesn't always go as planned. The enemy has something to say in the matter, not unlike the *Patriots fall to the Giants.

By A. David Archibald (Yooperatheart61) on Wednesday, February 6, 2008 - 03:08 pm:

Russemmons- absolutely agree with 20:45 post

GTasky- tanks for JFK definition

Snowman- Great Post

David H- nothing wrong with profit-it's the excess that is greed

By Heikki (Heikki) on Wednesday, February 6, 2008 - 03:42 pm:

One other thing regarding JFK. He would have been appalled at what is going on in Berkeley, CA. This further validates my point.


I dropped a 'friendly' note to these folks. Would appreciate others doing likewise who share my sentiments. 'Nuf said.

By G. Tasky (Gtask51) on Wednesday, February 6, 2008 - 06:39 pm:

Heikki - I also sent them a little note. I also emailed the VFW post that I am a Men's Auxiliary member, VA Romo Post 3165. Father served in WWII, two brothers served in Viet Nam. I never had to serve as my draft lottery number was very high. My brother is a past Commander at that post and is still an officer there. They were aware of the article and had already responded to it.

I have nothing but the utmost respect for the men and woman who fought to give us our freedoms.

Seems like those at Berkley have short memories as well as simple minds.

To all on this forum who served I thank you and appreciate it. I talk to my brothers often throughout the year, but make it a habit to call them every Veterans day and thank them for serving our country. Father past away 4 years ago, there was nothing he was more proud of than having served this country. As I right this I have a picture above me of him sitting on his motorcycle as he was in the Military Police.

God Bless America

By Snowman (Snowman) on Wednesday, February 6, 2008 - 06:57 pm:

Geno, that post said it all. How many of you out there can say the same thing?
Talk is cheap but lives are not.
God Bless America.

By A. David Archibald (Yooperatheart61) on Wednesday, February 6, 2008 - 07:12 pm:

Just curious why do you have to be pro war to be patriotic. I am a peace advocate, also an advocate for the individual veteran. We have been involved in war almost continuously for 50 years, Why? Some people are getting rich. Now we have some retired senor military people advocating a possible nuclear war to prevent Iran for obtaining nuclear capabilities. That is insane, period. Lets stop killing our serving veterans for the lies that are being told about the reason we went to war in the first place. Viet Nam was also a LIE. Bring the troops home!! Less weapons, more infrastructure and health care!

Peace should be Patriotic!!!

By Deb S. (Usedtobeayooper) on Wednesday, February 6, 2008 - 07:26 pm:

Gtask, I, for one, LOVED your recycle post.

Lots has happened since last I was on here. Keep it going guys, it's very interesting.

By Heikki (Heikki) on Wednesday, February 6, 2008 - 07:29 pm:

God bless you, Geno. I hope their computers are locking up out in the People's Republic of Berkeley with gigantic numbers of downloads. Enough is enough! Vets can tolerate dissension. Vets can tolerate just about anything counter to their belief, but by God don't anybody tell them they aren't welcome on any one square inch of U.S. soil.

By Peter Osmar (Pcosmar) on Wednesday, February 6, 2008 - 07:51 pm:

A. David Archibald (Yooperatheart61)
I know where you are coming from. It seems that the Propaganda machine is working overtime.
I am a peaceful man, if I have my choice. I am NOT a pacifist. There are some things worth fighting for.

I joined the Army out of High School, It was the beginning of the volunteer Army. I volunteered for Infantry and thought I was going to VietNam. I did not agree with or completely understand the war, but joined to serve the Country. As it was we left VietNam just as I completed Basic Training, so I was not in there.
I have watched changes in this country I am not happy with and that don't seem to jive with what I was taught in school many years ago.
I ran across this on another forum, It matches my feelings, but is better than I can write.

[quote]The Angry American - I, The Many!
I,The Many

Powers that be, the time has come to heed me, for though I would be small, I am many, and my anger is growing. My eyes are opening and the complacency you have long taken for granted is melting away like the morning dew. My anger is growing.

For too long, you have fattened yourself on my labors by deceiving me, pretending you cared for me as I built the nation you rule. You encouraged my love of country and assured me we were of one mind in that love. You promised to guard my labors there, to insure freedom and opportunity for my children. We shared this joint account and I trusted you to manage it well for the sake of my offspring. Now it is bankrupt, even though I have made regular deposits without fail, and you have squandered and stolen the dreams of my children. My anger is growing.

For too long, I refused to doubt you, desperately wanting to believe your lies, but now I see them, and you, clearly for the first time. Had you cheated only me, I might forgive, but you have cheated my family and the nation you insisted I love. My anger is growing.

You have never hesitated to demand my blood, or even life when it served your purposes, and were never refused. Not only my blood and labors have poured forth to build and protect this nation, but that of my fathers as well. You have held those sacrifices cheaply, throwing away their fruits in selfish pursuit of your own wealth and power, breaking the promises of generations. My anger is growing.

Your empty words are revealed for the lies they were, as your rotting mask reveals your rotten soul. I, the many, am waking like a sleeping giant and realizing my power of numbers. Call your troops and minions to small avail, for they stand among us, I, the many. My anger is growing.

Laugh at me while you may, for a champion of truth has arisen to wake me. Scorn while you may, for he has planted a mighty seed against which evil cannot prevail. I, the many, am no longer ignorant or stupid. My anger is growing.

No longer will I be distracted or fooled by your games or your trinkets, for I have seen the truth, and it has set me free. My anger is growing.

From mountain to shore, I am rising. I see your protection as prison and your "opportunity" as exploitation. My anger is growing.

I, the many, no longer fear you. The only thing you have left to steal is my life itself. That and much more, our founding fathers put at risk, and I, the many, can now do no less. My champion has come and I now stand to challenge you. Should he fall, my rebellion will continue. I have had enough of you.[/quote]

It inspires me to keep going and trying to work for change.
I do get tired or hearing that I am unpatriotic because I don't want to attack and kill those that have never attacked us. Because I would like to see our servicemen out of someone else's civil war.

By A. David Archibald (Yooperatheart61) on Wednesday, February 6, 2008 - 08:01 pm:

Peter Osmar(Pcosmar)

Tanks-really does sum up I way I feel also!

By G. Tasky (Gtask51) on Wednesday, February 6, 2008 - 08:15 pm:

"Endeavor to be always patient of the faults and imperfections of others for thou has many faults and imperfections of thine own that require forbearance. If thou are not able to make thyself that which thou wishest, how canst thou expect to mold another in conformity to thy will?"

Thomas a Kempis

By Heikki (Heikki) on Wednesday, February 6, 2008 - 08:43 pm:

This may come as a surprise to some, but wars are not fought because soldiers enjoy war. One is not pro-war because they understand there are times in this world when negotiation becomes fruitless, and an enemy continues their threat. A threat is best managed when small, like removing a malignant tumor before it spreads. If Hitler was challenged by the Allies in the late 30's, millions of lives would have been saved. But no, an egghead like Neville Chamberlain 'negotiated' with that madman and came back to the UK with the message, "Peace in our time." Hitler played him for the fool he was, and history proved how big a fool he was. Winston Churchill, then in the House of Commons, cautioned again and again about Hitler's agenda, but was treated as an alarmist. This is but one example. If one wants to preach peace before action is needed, it is suggested potential enemies of this country be convinced first by self-acclaimed brokers of peace. Don't wait until the threat becomes insurmountable and then have someone else do the dirty work while telling them they are wrong. Here's another tidbit for those who think they are 'in the know'. Just because GW was authorized by Congress to take whatever action necessary against Saddam Hussein doesn't mean it wasn't in the works before he took office. A gigantic operation as that isn't planned, equipped, mobilized and executed overnight. It was already started. I invite those interested to view this link:

These were the first "shots across the bow" for Hussein if he didn't come clean. At that time an invasion was being planned as many other are when threats are recognized. What do you think they do in the Pentagon? Drink coffee and eat donuts all day? Anyone who has been part of a huge military operation knows it was planned long before. I'll bet there is a plan in the works for Hugo Chavez right now should the need arise. Doesn't mean it will be executed, but it's there should the need arise. That's the job military professionals do to ensure our national security. Some claim GW created hatred toward the U.S. Here's another little secret. We are hated by some because of who we are. The tyrants of this world and their Kool-Aid drinking followers hate us because we are an obstacle to the achievement of their goals. Nothing more, nothing less.

By G. Tasky (Gtask51) on Wednesday, February 6, 2008 - 09:03 pm:

That was then, this is now.


By Heikki (Heikki) on Wednesday, February 6, 2008 - 10:04 pm:

One man's opinion and steeply biased at that. Too many partial truths to name, some whole truths as well, but what's new? Monday morning quarterbacking at its best. It shouldn't be necessary to go through the list of radical Islamic attacks prior to 9/11, but to anyone taking a macro view of events leading to today, the initiation of WWIII started in 1974. 9/11 was simply the event that really got this country's attention.....the 'excuse', or 'moral authority' to take action in front of the eyes of the world. In retrospect, perhaps GW should have ignored the attack, had us roll up our sleeves and clean up the mess and then negotiate with this nationless enemy. What would this newscaster be saying then?
Ahhhh, the lucrative position of being critic without responsibility. Another talking head distilling a terrifically complex situation down to simple salient 'facts'. He's in the wrong job. He should run for president and show how it should be done. Compared to WWII, this war is a brushfire. Not to the soldier doing the fighting, but to its cost, U.S. citizen civilian participation, and immediate threat of devastating attacks. FDR was at the helm of state when the darkest days of WWII were underway. There was great uncertainty we would prevail against the war machines of Hitler and the Emperor. There was very little undermining of FDR, because this country was frightened. Talking heads such as this would have been rode out of town on a rail. Not by the government necessarily, but by average citizens. Such were the times. No need to keep kicking a dead horse. I haven't seen anyone change another's mind on this string, yet. It's getting past my bedtime, and these old bones need rest. So, I'll leave you agreeing to disagree. Good night, David. Good night, Chet.

By G. Tasky (Gtask51) on Wednesday, February 6, 2008 - 10:13 pm:

Agreed, good night gram-pa, good night John Boy....

"And That's the way it is, Wednesday, February 6th, 2008."

By Deb S. (Usedtobeayooper) on Wednesday, February 6, 2008 - 10:40 pm:

I loved JFK and would vote for him again too. I was only 11 when he died, but I remember the empty feeling even as a kid. I would vote for him also. People will say he's a philanderer. Well, I only care how a man or woman runs the country, how what he's doing hurts me.

I'd rather see Bush be a philanderer than the way he runs the country. We have all been hurt.

By Heikki (Heikki) on Thursday, February 7, 2008 - 06:40 am:

Deb S.,
You're absolutely right on that point. Being head of state is an important job, although in this country not all-powerful as dictatorships. Thank God and the wisdom of the writers of our Constitution we have separation of powers built into our system. Mankind is weak,forgetful, and vulnerable to error, but with enough collective thought challenged by loyal opposition, the best course of action to take at the time usually works out. But if there is anything permanent in life, it is change. Conditions are constantly changing in armed conflict, that's why I will never overly criticize our President or his Cabinet unless I am privy to all the information they have when times get tough. My beef with GW stems not from making some strategic missteps, but rather his frustrating inability to communicate with the folks. He will also not stand up as a leader should and defend his decisions in terms understandable to the general public. In short, he's not an effective leader in my book. JFK was.

If I were to find myself requiring open heart surgery, I would care not about my surgeon's religion, marital status, weakness of the flesh, income level, gender, race, etc. Of prime importance would be his/her loyalty to the Hippocratic oath, his/her standing from medical school and qualifying experience. I view our presidency in much the same way. I only ask he/she not soil the People's Office or invite embarrassment to the position of Commander-in- Chief. Too bad we don't have much to pick from nowadays. As one person posted the other day, they were going out to vote for the lesser of two 'evils'. This is very true. We may elect the lesser 'evil', but they're still 'evil'.

Now I must leave PastyCam for the day. Errands to run among other things. Geno, I've enjoyed our verbal sparring session, but need to rest a bit. I'm a senior citizen like some others on this site and type using the 'hunt and peck' method. Between that and trifocals.....well, you get the picture. ;-) As Ahnold says, "I'll be ba-a-a-a-ck."

By FJL (Langoman) on Thursday, February 7, 2008 - 07:56 am:

Well, I see things haven't changed. Same people trying to transfer water from one bucket to another useing a sieve. Get's a little frustrating does'nt it. All that research to make a point and have others say it's hogwash. A counterpoint is in the works. What is suprising is the amount of hatered and venom there is in some of these posts. But I guess that's why blood pressure medication is available......"When you stop banging your head against a stone wall, you may be supprised how much better you will feel".... Have a great day.....FJL

By Eugene Zuverink (Zube) on Thursday, February 7, 2008 - 09:36 am:

Everyone should watch the link that Heikki posted,You Democrats should really watch, and then see if you still call our President a liar,really think about it, you hate him so much,but what about all these Democrats in this film,then there liars to for everything they said. Get off this guy , you only have around eleven months to put up with him.

By Eugene Zuverink (Zube) on Thursday, February 7, 2008 - 11:12 am:

Everyone should watch the link that Heikki posted,You Democrats should really watch, and then see if you still call our President a liar,really think about it, you hate him so much,but what about all these Democrats in this film,then there liars to for everything they said. Get off this guy , you only have around eleven months to put up with him.

By k j (Kathiscc) on Thursday, February 7, 2008 - 11:41 am:

Groundhog Day was on the 2nd.

By k j (Kathiscc) on Thursday, February 7, 2008 - 11:44 am:

Groundhog Day was on the 2nd.

By Eugene Zuverink (Zube) on Thursday, February 7, 2008 - 12:01 pm:

OK kj how many groundhog days are there?


By G. Tasky (Gtask51) on Thursday, February 7, 2008 - 12:09 pm:

Politicians and their supporters no matter the political affiliation remind me of the paradox of Epimenides.

"All Cretans are liars"

The paradox is Epimenides was a Cretan. So the question is are all Cretans liars or was he lying when he said it?

Politicians are no different, always the pot calling the kettle black. I just suggest using blanket statements like, "You Democrats or You Republicans" really just causes people to disregard any argument they try to bring. And I include myself when I say this because you can't point a finger at someone without pointing three back at yourself.

When people use references or provide links from places such an Urban legend sites, or clips put together by PAC's responses are immediately. Consider the source, or hogwash, what a bunch of bunk.

Heikki said it best last night we really aren't going to change peoples minds. What's really important is to be aware the issues and make your choices. And yes sometimes it is the lesser of two evils. Nothing is perfect.

"When you choose the lesser of two evils, always remember that it is still an evil."

Max Lerner - American Politician & Columnist

All desire to live in an ideal world, unfortunately we live in the real world.

By A. David Archibald (Yooperatheart61) on Thursday, February 7, 2008 - 12:46 pm:

G Tasky



Nothing in Heikki post is new. It doesn't matter how many people were taken in by administration lies.a lie is a lie. Read other sources even from other countries and you might then find out exactly what "W" is up to with his many LIES.
When I was in the Navy I had first hand knowledge of LIES told by our Military people and they are still lying to this very day. To think "W" is not a big liar is at the very least naive. I served under Johnson and he certainly was a big LIAR! You have to earn respect and "W" hasn't even come close to earning mine. "W" has done to the country exactly what he did to the STATE of TEXAS when he was governor.(near BANKRUPTCY) American have to quit pretending how RIGHTEOUS we all are and face some very nasty TRUTHS about ourselves. It about our treatment of the rest of the WORLD.It seems to me that only Ameerican deaths seem to matter.

By Eugene Zuverink (Zube) on Thursday, February 7, 2008 - 02:44 pm:

If all the Presidents are liars, why do we even waste our time, then were all being deceived every time a new President is elected,if you do vote David,and have that atitude why do you even waste your time.

By Matt Karhu (Matt_k) on Thursday, February 7, 2008 - 02:52 pm:

Let us not forget that Hitler attained and kept his power over Germany with the help of his radical Nazi propaganda ministers. Today the U.S. has a modern version of these propaganda ministers in the persons of the radical right-wing talk show host spin-masters such as Limbaugh and Hannity, who have helped tear apart the Replican party with their mean, rabid rhetoric and exaggerations, and by demeaning and insulting those with whom they disagree, Republicans, Democrats, and others. Recent primary elections results show how wrong their opinions have been and how much they have strayed away from the historic Republican position on most issues facing the U.S. today.

By A. David Archibald (Yooperatheart61) on Thursday, February 7, 2008 - 03:18 pm:


I have never missed voting since I've been old enough to vote. You just pick someone based on their record and try to hold them to do what is good for the country and not special interest. Some have been better than others. Unfortunately you do end up trying to pick the lesser of 2 evils. Eisenhower warned us of the Military Industrial Complex and nobody so far has done much about them, so it has grown a lot worse over the years. As long as we pick to spent our money on them, ("W" is the worst one so far)we can't look after our own countries needs. One little example-check out how much the out sourcing of what the Military used to do- is costing you and me.

Matt Karhu- very true post

By Kathy P. (Katiaire) on Thursday, February 7, 2008 - 03:36 pm:

In 11 months GW can still do a lot more damage.

By Eugene Zuverink (Zube) on Thursday, February 7, 2008 - 03:55 pm:

If Limbaugh and Hannity are such bad guys, why do you watch them,I just fell like I should stay off this site, because some of you sound like hate mongers , and I am just not that way.


By Heikki (Heikki) on Thursday, February 7, 2008 - 08:49 pm:

Looks like I missed some good discussion today. I guess I will comment on the following:

What is a lie? In the context of David's comment above, I would say a lie is when one is in possession of irrefutable facts and informs the public otherwise in order to deceive. The "Saddam has WMD" drum was beaten for so long during the Clinton Administration, supported by European intelligence, and further exacerbated by Saddam's unwillingness to come clean and allow verification by UN inspection teams, it is a small wonder it was judged he had more than we found. Acting on information considered to be true and later discovered to be less than what was originally thought to be true, is an error in intelligence, not a lie. Some have thought Saddam maintained that posture in order to make his neighbors think he had such arms. Remember, that guy was a fox. Also, France, Germany, and Russia were deep into his pockets in violation of the oil for food program. This was the cause for several months delay in taking military action because of the stalling tactics used by those countries during the UN Security Council hearings. If Saddam had more WMD than we found, he had ample time to bury or hide in some other way, those WMD U.S. and European intelligence thought he had. It seems Iraq buried weapons in the desert as a matter of standard practice to avoid their discovery and/or destruction should they survive or otherwise ward off attack by the U.N. coalition. They buried 30-40 modern Russian-built fighter aircraft. These were found almost by accident. Here's a link w/pix: http://www.snopes.com/photos/military/sandplanes.asp
I received photos of these aircraft via email from my retired AF buddy who had a friend still serving in Iraq and was part of the team that unearthed these aircraft, so I'm reasonably sure it isn't a Photoshop production for propaganda purposes. If this was the practice (burying weapons) during the long wait caused by stalling in the U.N., then I think there is the possibility U.S. and European intelligence weren't too far off the mark in their call. There still may be weapons to be discovered under the desert or perhaps hid in neighboring (Syria?) countries. There was plenty time to pull this off. But, be that as it may, faulty intelligence does not constitute a lie. As far as I am concerned, the jury is still out on whether all weapons have been found.

By Heikki (Heikki) on Thursday, February 7, 2008 - 09:27 pm:

On radio talk show hosts:

I think all news/opinion media outlets are important to offer as many different views possible to the public. This includes the likes of Rush Limbaugh, Sean Hannity, Michael Savage, Al Franken, etc., etc. As Gene suggests, no one is forcing us to listen. I've listened to all they guys and then some. For the most part, they make my guts burn. The pitch, volume, and timbre of their voices creates tension in me, much like the newscaster from the 50's, Gabriel "Cry Baby" Heater. Remember him? lol. We must remember it is a business, and their style and 'schtick' is there to entertain and hold their audience's attention (if you have the stomach for it). I find them harmless to the independent thinker. They also inform us up front what their political beliefs are, so you know what they say is going to be biased. What I find dangerous are newscasters that present themselves as objective, professional journalists, and then hold a political bias. It's not always what they say/write that betrays their bias, but also what isn't said/written. Nowadays I find it difficult finding true objectivity in the world of journalism. There are a few, and I seek their presentations, but for the most part I end up checking many sources. All time-consuming just to get a handle on what's going on.

By Michael Du Long (Mikie) on Thursday, February 7, 2008 - 09:41 pm:

Don't leave us Gene. I enjoy you. Don't agree with all you say but do with some of it. Can't stand the drugie Limbaugh, but Hannity isn't that bad. I don't think Jimmie Carter was a liar, maybe he wasn't that good of a president, but I think he is a good man. Of course being a fellow wood worker I have to admire him. The only president that I ever liked was Harry Truman. He once said he couldn't stand Johnson because he called Harry, " Harry *ss Truman when his name is Harry S. Truman." Truman was a great man in my eyes. Come on Gene how about that Harry S. agree or disagree.

By David Hiltunen (Davidcorrytontn) on Friday, February 8, 2008 - 12:31 am:

I didn't like Clinton at all, but I never bashed him the way you Bush haters do W.. I always said, he Bill would be great to party with.

Since talk radio and Rush Limbaugh were written about today.......quote
ministers in the persons of the radical right-wing talk show host spin-masters such as Limbaugh and Hannity, who have helped tear apart the Replican party with their mean, rabid rhetoric and exaggerations, and by demeaning and insulting those with whom they disagree.un-quote

This below is what Rush Limbaugh had to say today, well yesterday now, he has talent on loan from God... I hope I am not breaking any laws. I am giving Rush credit, I was listening to him on my car radio, as I am in the car a lot on Thursday's . What he said, I myself have been thinking the same for quite some time. I don't have the talent like he dose to put it into words as he dose here....

RUSH: There are still some things here that need to be addressed; based, again, on some of the things that have been said today and last night in the media. Basically the reason I want to go through this is to try to explain to those of you, why I feel the way I do, think the way I did, the reason I've been saying the things that I've been saying. It will resonate with quite a few of you, if not most of you. But I also want to lay down a marker, because I sense here that within the conservative movement, there is an attempt here to point the finger of blame. If there is failure of the Republican Party this year, to succeed in winning the presidency, they want to point the finger of blame at me and Hannity, Levin, Laura Ingraham, and all these other people on talk radio that have been singled out.

This to me is the big point. The failure of establishment Republicans -- whether they be members of Congress, Washington, or New York editorial writers, even some talk show hosts who live and work and socialize in that community, the failure of these people -- to uphold the principles of conservatism during the last decade or more has resulted in the mess that they now complain about. George Neumayr, writing today a column -- he used to be the editor of the American Spectator -- makes a great point. He said, "Once the Republican Party decided..." This was largely due to abortion, by the way. "Once the Republican Party decided to be a big-tent party, its days were numbered; its identity forever changed," because the definition of "big tent" was to bring in people who normally would not be in the tent, that there was no litmus test anymore for the party, and this was about abortion, because the establishment, blue-blood, country club-type Republicans were always embarrassed of the evangelicals and the hardcore conservatives to whom the issue of life mattered most -- and so we had to be big tent. And one of the reasons also for the big tent was to contrast ourselves with the Democrats who did have litmus tests.

But their litmus tests were aimed at maintaining the originality and the purity or whatever, the solidness of liberalism, and they didn't want it watered down, and they didn't want to let conservatives in. They didn't even want to let Bob Casey, the pro-life Democrat governor of Pennsylvania even address their convention back in 1992. Yet because Republicans felt all defensive and we felt all ashamed, and we were being shamed by the media, we adopted this "big-tent" strategy, and the big-tent strategy effectively eliminated the three legs of the conservative stool I've been telling you about: fiscal, foreign policy, cultural. Once in a while we allowed those legs of the stool to be whittled down and others added to the stool. Neumayr's point is: Hey, Republicans have only themselves to blame here -- and he's got a point. But who is to blame for this? If you want to assign blame, if you want to talk about it in terms of blame you can say, "Okay, how did it happen?" And that's what I'm telling you. The failure of establishment Republicans -- whether they're a member of Congress, Washington or New York editorial writers; even some talk show hosts who live and work and socialize in that community -- to uphold conservative principles during the last decade or more, has resulted in the mess that they are now complaining about.

They are complaining about us failing to join them as they have changed the party, as they have watered it down. This confusion, this mess -- contrary to the take of the Drive-By Media -- that conservatism, slash, Republican Partyism finds itself in today, is a reaction to the establishment Republicans who have ignored conservative principles and watered down their party for the last decade or more and their failures. This mess has resulted from them and their failures and their false promises. These very same people now who were the big-tent guys, which resulted in -- and, by the way, I'm all for big tent, but you bring people in as us; not as them. Don't misunderstand. There's nothing exclusionary about me. You want to expand the party? I'm all for it. It's what we've been trying to do here, in fact, with conservatism! Now, these very same people now who sought to expand the party by essentially marginalizing conservatives and bringing in their buddies (the moderates, the independents, even some liberals) are now demanding that the people they took for granted -- us, and the evangelicals and so forth -- continue to follow them, continue to be swayed by their demeaning and condescending lectures.

Dorothy Rabinowitz of the Wall Street Journal editorial board has referred to talk radio as semipsychotic, something like that. So we now have to listen to those who write today, say, "Here's what we need to do to get ourselves back in the fold. This is what McCain needs to do to make sure conservatives think he's conservative." It wasn't that long ago... You know, like Bill Bennett. Bill Bennett is one of the guys who wrote today in the National Review Online listing various reasons why McCain is worthy of support, conservative reasons and so forth. But, remember, it wasn't that long ago Bill Bennett was part of the open borders crowd. In 1987, he and Jack Kemp slammed Pete Wilson on Prop 187. Remember Prop 187 in California was a proposition that overwhelmingly was supported by the people of California. They were fed up with tax increases to pay for education, medical care, health care insurance, and so forth, for the children of illegal immigrants. You know, that's how long this has been simmering. Now, Bill -- who is a really good friend of mine -- is a leader in border security. He's changed his mind on this and wants us to accept McCain.

I'm not trying to pick on a single person here. I'm just saying that there are people who have been all over the ballpark in this party, and they come back and go forth and they change positions and so forth, and they're now trying to tell us -- who have been consistent all these years -- that we need to somehow now moderate for the good of whatever. But the truth is that none of this, despite all the media writing about it and media talking about it and televising it, this isn't about me. It's not about Rush Limbaugh. It's not about any single person. The same time people in Washington and New York who like to write op-eds and editorials to themselves to show how smart they are and how in touch they are, are missing what's going on here. I don't control. I want everybody in the Drive-Bys and liberals to listen to this. I don't control the real disaffection conservatives are feeling for the Republican Party and for Washington in general. I don't control that. This isn't some manufactured view that people didn't hold and all of a sudden they do because I have been saying it. This isn't some view that's turned on or off by me, or other talk show hosts. This is a result of years of contempt of the grassroots; years of negotiating, false promises, pseudo-conservatism here and there; a primary system put in place by the party and state parties intended to quickly choose a nominee, which benefits a Washington insider, on and on and on and on.


By Heikki (Heikki) on Friday, February 8, 2008 - 06:46 am:


Perhaps you didn't bash WJC, but there are many others who did, including myself. I couldn't stand looking at his face then and can't now......mostly because of his disdain for the military and the draft-dodging techniques he used.
You see, he thought he was too good to serve. That was a slap in the face to every vet I know. But, he eventually suffered great embarrassment when impeached, so I guess that evens things out a bit. I wouldn't be taken back too much when Bush is bashed. He's a public figure and that goes with the territory. Makes for good old fashioned heated political debate. LOL! It doesn't seem to bother him, so why us? The truth usually comes out down the line after cooler heads prevail.

By Heikki (Heikki) on Friday, February 8, 2008 - 07:15 am:

With all the attention focused on the presidential election campaign, there's another branch of our government that needs attention as well, and that's Congress. It's easy to blame one person, like the President, for excess spending and/or spending more in one area than the other, but the real power lies in Congress. To those who have an issue with the federal budget, remember this:

Politicians are the only people in the world who create problems and then campaign against them. Have you ever wondered why, if both the Democrats and the Republicans are against deficits, we have deficits? Have you ever wondered why, if all the politicians are against inflation and high taxes, we have inflation and high taxes?

You and I don't propose a federal budget. The president does.

You and I don't have the Constitutional authority to vote on appropriations. The House of Representatives does.

You and I don't write the tax code. Congress does.

You and I don't set fiscal policy. Congress does.

You and I don't control monetary policy. The Federal Reserve Bank does.

One hundred senators, 435 congressmen, one president and nine Supreme Court justices - 545 human beings out of the 300 million - are directly, legally, morally and individually responsible for the domestic problems that plague this country.

I excluded the members of the Federal Reserve Board because that problem was created by the Congress. In 1913, Congress delegated its Constitutional duty to provide a sound currency to a federally chartered but private central bank.

I excluded all the special interests and lobbyists for a sound reason They have no legal authority. They have no ability to coerce a senator, a congressman or a president to do one cotton- picking thing. I don't care if they offer a politician $1 million dollars in cash. The politician has the power to accept or reject it. No matter what the lobbyist promises, it is the legislator's responsibility to determine how he votes.

A CONFIDENCE CONSPIRACY: Those 545 human beings spend much of their energy convincing you that what they did is not their fault. They cooperate in this common con regardless of party. What separates a politician from a normal human being is an excessive amount of gall. No normal human being would have the gall of a SPEAKER, who stood up and criticized G.W. Bush ALONE for creating deficits. The president can only propose a budget. He cannot force the Congress to accept it. The Constitution, which is the supreme law of the land, gives sole responsibility to the House of Representatives for originating and approving appropriations and taxes. Who is the speaker of the House? She is the leader of the majority party. She and fellow Democrats, not the president, can approve any budget they want. If the president vetoes it, they can pass it over his veto.

REPLACE THE SCOUNDRELS It seems inconceivable to me that a nation of 300 million cannot replace 545 people who stand convicted -- by present facts - of incompetence and irresponsibility. I can't think of a single domestic problem, from an unfair tax code to defense overruns, that is not traceable directly to those 545 people

When you fully grasp the plain truth that 545 people exercise power of the federal government, then it must follow that what exists is what they want to exist. If the tax code is unfair, it's because they want it unfair. If the budget is in the red, it's because they want it in the red. If the Marines are in IRAQ, it's because they want them in IRAQ.

There are no insoluble government problems. Do not let these 545 people shift the blame to bureaucrats, whom they hire and whose jobs they can abolish; to lobbyists, whose gifts and advice they can reject; to regulators, to whom they give the power to regulate and from whom they can take this power. Above all, do not let them con you into the belief that there exist disembodied mystical forces like "the economy," "inflation" or "politics" that prevent them from doing what they take an oath to do.

Those 545 people, and they alone, are responsible. They, and they alone, have the power. They, and they alone, should be held accountable by the people who are their bosses - provided the voters have the gumption to manage their own employees. We should vote all of them out of office and clean up their mess.
I don't know the source of the above as I received it via email. I apologize for posting such a lengthy piece, but thought it worth sharing as a reminder. Sometimes we seem to forget how our government works....or doesn't work.

By A. David Archibald (Yooperatheart61) on Friday, February 8, 2008 - 10:47 am:

Mikie- fantastic news

Gene- no hate here-stick around

By Peter Osmar (Pcosmar) on Friday, February 8, 2008 - 06:54 pm:

Heikki (Heikki)

Good Post, and a good reminder.
It is true that they are not doing their jobs as they should. It also falls on the voters who have voted them in over and over again over the years.
It seems that folks vote in whoever promises the most "stuff", rather than who will uphold their Oath of Office.
We as a nation have voted against our Constitution since before I was born.
I would like to see that change, and have been studying the writings of the Founders and the Constitution.
I am amazed and saddened at how far we are from their counsel.

By Peter Osmar (Pcosmar) on Friday, February 8, 2008 - 07:04 pm:

A very good site for those that love Freedom.

This is a worthy creed.
It parallels our Constitution and the writings of the Founders.

I believe that only individuals have rights, not the collective group; that these rights are intrinsic to each individual, not granted by the state; for if the state has the power to grant them, it also has the power to deny them, and that is incompatible with personal liberty.
I believe that a just government derives its power solely from the governed. Therefore, the state must never presume to do anything beyond what individual citizens also have the right to do. Otherwise, the state is a power unto itself and becomes the master instead of the servant of society.

I believe that one of the greatest threats to freedom is to allow any group, no matter its numeric superiority, to deny the rights of the minority; and that one of the primary functions of just government is to protect each individual from the greed and passion of the majority.

I believe that desirable social and economic objectives are better achieved by voluntary action than by coercion of law. I believe that social tranquility and brotherhood are better achieved by tolerance, persuasion, and the power of good example than by coercion of law. I believe that those in need are better served by charity, which is the giving of one's own money, than by welfare, which is the giving of other people's money through coercion of law.

I believe that all citizens should be equal under law, regardless of their national origin, race, religion, gender, education, economic status, life style, or political opinion. Likewise, no class should be given preferential treatment, regardless of the merit or popularity of its cause. To favor one class over another is not equality under law.

I believe that the proper role of government is negative, not positive; defensive, not aggressive. It is to protect, not to provide; for if the state is granted the power to provide for some, it must also be able to take from others, and once that power is granted, there are those who will seek it for their advantage. It always leads to legalized plunder and loss of freedom. If government is powerful enough to give us everything we want, it is also powerful enough to take from us everything we have. Therefore, the proper function of government is to protect the lives, liberty, and property of its citizens; nothing more. That government is best which governs least. [/QUOTE]

I had seen the seminar by G. Edward Griffin.
Some good lessons and reminders

By Heikki (Heikki) on Friday, February 8, 2008 - 08:36 pm:


Our schools should be stressing these points at every grade level so it is deeply ingrained in each pupil's mind by the time they leave school.
The Freedom of Choice point brings to mind what Colin Powell said about some controversial social issues. He felt our nation should work to effect cultural change for resolution of the same, and not legislate. I think there is much wisdom in that approach. It's human nature to resist being forced into anything.

By Peter Osmar (Pcosmar) on Monday, February 11, 2008 - 12:42 pm:

Heikki (Heikki)

Well as a believer in Freedom of Choice, I don't think that forcing it to be taught would sit well with me. I do think it should be taught, as well as other Ideas. The two main schools of thought are not studied. Individualism v Collectivism.
Between those schools of thought and the lessons of history, the path gets clearer.
They should be included in both history,and social studies.

Do they teach those anymore?

By Heikki (Heikki) on Monday, February 11, 2008 - 02:04 pm:

Well, 'stressing' may have been too strong a term, I agree. But interwoven with other studies to illustrate 'cause and effect' would enable students to relate those principles to not only historical events, but current events as well. There's always many facets to an issue. I've never seen simple solutions satisfactorily resolve complex problems. There may be some, but I haven't experienced one. Not being an educator, I'd have to leave that approach to the pros. Social studies certainly is taught, but I don't know how much history is taught today compared to when I was in school decades ago. My eldest grandson proudly shows me his excellent report cards, but the names of the subjects have changed so much he had to explain the subject matter to me before I could associate it with what we had in school! LOL! It does seem there are more disciplines taught within each subject today, which in my humble opinion is a good thing. At any rate, I feel there must be balance built in to teaching subjects having to do with history and social studies illustrating both pros and cons. Anything else could be looked on as indoctrination, and we know the effect of that, eh? Critical thinking is important.

By David Hiltunen (Davidcorrytontn) on Friday, February 15, 2008 - 03:17 pm:

The other day I was reading Newsweek magazine and came across some poll data I found rather hard to believe. It must be true, given the source, right?

The Newsweek poll alleges that 67 percent of Americans are unhappy with the direction the country is headed, and 69 percent of the country is unhappy with the performance of the President. In essence, 2/3's of the citizenry just ain't happy and want a change.

So being the knuckle dragger I am, I started thinking, ''What are we so unhappy about?''
Is it that we have electricity and running water 24 hours a day, 7 days a week?

Is our unhappiness the result of having air conditioning in the summer and heating in the winter?

Could it be that 95.4 percent of these unhappy folks have a job?

Maybe it is the ability to walk into a grocery store at any time, and see more food in moments than Darfur has seen in the last year?

Maybe it is the ability to drive from the Pacific Ocean to the Atlantic Ocean without having to present identification papers as we move through each state?

Or possibly the hundreds of clean and safe motels we would find along the way that can provide temporary shelter?

I guess having thousands of restaurants with varying cuisine from around the world is just not good enough.

Or could it be that when we wreck our car, emergency workers show up and provides services to help all, and even send a helicopter to take you to the hospital.

Perhaps you are one of the 70 percent of Americans who own a home. You may be upset with knowing that in the unfortunate case of a fire, a group of trained firefighters will appear in moments and use top notch equipment to extinguish the flames thus saving you, your family and your belongings. Or if, while at home watching one of your many flat screen TVs, a burglar or prowler intrudes, an officer equipped with a gun and a bullet-proof vest will come to defend you and your family against attack or loss.

This all in the backdrop of a neighborhood free of bombs or militias raping and pillaging the residents. Neighborhoods where 90 percent of teenagers own cell phones and computers.

How about the complete religious, social and political freedoms we enjoy that are the envy of everyone in the world?

Maybe that is what has 67 percent of you folks unhappy.

Fact is, we are the largest group of ungrateful, spoiled brats the world has ever seen. No wonder the world loves the U.S., yet has a great disdain for its citizens .

They see us for what we are. The most blessed people in the world who do nothing but complain about what we don't have , and what we hate about the country instead of thanking the good Lord we live here.

I know, I know. What about the President who took us into war and has no plan to get us out? The President who has a measly 31 percent approval rating? Is this the same President who guided the nation in the dark days after 9/11? The President that cut taxes to bring an economy out of recession? Could this be the same guy who has been called every name in the book for succeeding in keeping all the spoiled ungrateful brats safe from terrorist attacks?

The Commander-In Chief of an all-volunteer army that is out there defending you and me? Did you hear how bad the President is on the news or talk show? Did this news affect you so much, make you so unhappy you couldn't take a look around for yourself and see all the good things and be glad?

Think about it ...are you upset at the President because he actually caused you personal pain OR is it because the "Media" told you he was failing to kiss your sorry ungrateful behind every day.

Make no mistake about it. The troops in Iraq and Afghanistan have volunteered to serve, and in many cases may have died for your freedom. There is currently no draft in this country. They didn't have to go.

They are able to refuse to go and end up with either a ''general'' discharge, an ''other than honorable'' discharge or, worst case scenario, a ''dishonorable'' discharge after a few days in the brig.

So why then the flat-out discontentment in the minds of 69 percent of Americans? Say what you want, but I blame it on the media. If it bleeds, it leads; and they specialize in bad news. Everybody will watch a car crash with blood and guts. How many will watch kids selling lemonade at the corner? The media knows this and media outlets are for-profit corporations. They offer what sells, and when criticized, try to defend their actions by "justifying" them in one way or another. Just ask why they tried to allow a murderer like O.J. Simpson to write a book about "how he didn't kill his wife, but if he did he would have done it this way"...Insane!

Stop buying the negativism you are fed everyday by the media. Shut off the TV, burn Newsweek, and use the New York Times for the bottom of your bird cage.

Then start being grateful for all we have as a country. There is exponentially more good than bad.

We are among the most blessed people on Earth, and should thank God several times a day, or at least be thankful and appreciative.

"With hurricanes, tornados, fires out of control, mud slides, flooding, severe thunderstorms tearing up the country from one end to another, and with the threat of bird flu and terrorist attacks, "Are we sure this is a good time to take God out of the Pledge of Allegiance?"

Jay Leno 2007

By Snowman (Snowman) on Friday, February 15, 2008 - 04:52 pm:

Hey, I'm happy, in fact I'm tickled pink. Dubya has less than eleven months to go.

By Matt Karhu (Matt_k) on Friday, February 15, 2008 - 05:04 pm:

Heikki, I can think of another school of thought, as portrayed by Ayn Rand in her novels, i.e., "objectivism". Right-wing radicals who lack a conscience often apply this when pursuing an objective and/or goal, and they show little or no concern for unintended consequences.

By David Soumis (Davesou) on Friday, February 15, 2008 - 05:25 pm:

you know, David, I think most people that are unhappy with what's going on are looking beyond what is mentioned in that post.

I think perhaps, it is correct to say Americans are a spoiled bunch, in fact they are rude, demanding, childish, greedy, selfish, and unappreciative of what they have, just like you posted.

However, I think if you look realistically at the other bs that is going on, you have to admit that there are many things not good. Now you can just look at all the positive stuff and be blind to the negative, or you can also see the negative and say or try to do something about it.

Take a look at another mployment example..there are many...but just a couple of days ago GM decided to buy out all 74,000 of the US labor force, or at least all those that are unionized. Guess what is going to happen to those accepting that offer. They surely won;t have a job that pays what they're being paid now, if they can even find one in their home town where they currently have lived their life.

Look at the rising numbers of homeless, of those without healthcare.

Look at the standing of the US in the world. And it isn;t just others looking down on us greedy, rude people, they abhore the way out government is trying to push itself around...abusing their resources and people.

We haven't been abiding by laws set up by the UN or Geneva Convention.
we're sabre rattling all the time.

our environmental program has fallen backwords. We are about the only country that owuldn;t sign the Kyoto agreement. We haven't signed the anti-land mine agreement.

The agreements such as NAFTA are killing our jobs. Granted, this was passed during the Clinton administration, but this and similar are ruining the employment possibilities for Americans.

Our education system is going down the toilet. Teaching to pass the test doesn't teach you much.

If you look at our rankings in many dmeographic categories, yu will see that the US is backpedaling very fast.

So you can look at the positive stuff, but you're going to be not seeing as much of it if things don't change.
I would like to keep my standard of living instead of seeing it all going to the big businesses, such as oil, making record profits at our expense. Food prices are going through the roof.

By Snowman (Snowman) on Friday, February 15, 2008 - 06:12 pm:

I would like to keep my standard of living too and what that means is just keeping my head above water.

By A. David Archibald (Yooperatheart61) on Friday, February 15, 2008 - 06:21 pm:

David Soumis
Well said!!

By A. David Archibald (Yooperatheart61) on Friday, February 15, 2008 - 06:29 pm:


By FRNash/PHX, AZ (Frnash) on Friday, February 15, 2008 - 06:44 pm:

David Soumis (Davesou):
"… GM decided to buy out all 74,000 of the US labor force …"

And, by the way, what do ya 'spose those that take the buyout can count on for a health insurance plan from their next (if any) employer?

By David Hiltunen (Davidcorrytontn) on Friday, February 15, 2008 - 06:50 pm:

In your case Snowman it should be your feet kept above water. It is hard to stand on principle with feet made of snow or clay.

Of all the foreign places Americans has fought, the only land we took was to burry our dead.

The homeless are most likely that way because of bad choices made in their life, such as not being in school when they should have been, or inhaled.

People from this state are rude, where their minute is like 20 seconds when they are in line waiting, you know what state that is.

Our education system is going down the toilet. Teaching to pass the test doesn't teach you much.

How about giving the private sector a try at teaching our young sculls full of mush?

By David Soumis (Davesou) on Friday, February 15, 2008 - 06:51 pm:

I have a feeling most will end up with NO health insurance..plus probably no job, especially if they're in Michigan.

They're not getting much either..up to $`140,000..which doesn't get you very far nowadays.

By Heikki (Heikki) on Friday, February 15, 2008 - 07:14 pm:

That is true, but the operative word is "radical". I can think of several left-wing radicals that have accomplished the same, also with no concern for unintended consequences. The intent of integrating the Creed of Freedom into school subjects would not be to instill a strong bias into one's thinking, but rather provide much needed balance.

By Matt Karhu (Matt_k) on Saturday, February 16, 2008 - 10:19 am:

Thanks for reminding me about the left-wing radicals, who also seem to show no concern for unintended consequences. The left-wing radicals don't have radio and TV talk shows for up to ten hours a day starting at noon (EST) in the central midwest like the right-wing radicals have, hence it is easy to forget about them.

By Heikki (Heikki) on Saturday, February 16, 2008 - 10:55 am:

You can find them (left-wing rads) if you have cable TV. MSNBC has a few. Several late, late shows as well, along with a couple on PBS, and also newspapers and mags. All in all, I'd say the left wing has more broad coverage than right wing. They all survive on ratings/readership, with a few exceptions such as some on PBS. I've always found the best way to nullify their psychobabble is by turning the knob counter-clockwise.....just exercising my right to not listen/watch them exercise their rights. It's the radicals that create/enact legislation that concerns me, not some voice over the airwaves. Political commentary, as with religion, finds its largest audience in those who seek programs embracing what they want to hear.

By Peter Osmar (Pcosmar) on Saturday, February 16, 2008 - 11:05 am:

Wow, all the labels.
Lefty, right wing, radical, conservative, liberal, anarchy, fascism, democracy, and then we get to the Party's.
There are really only two lines of political thought, the rest all boils down to which of the two you follow.
Or if you vote for whoever promises the most stuff, you are not really looking at the "Who What & Why".

Are you an Individualist or a Collectivist?

These are the two Main Political Philosophies working in the world.

any of several types of social organization in which the individual is seen as being subordinate to a social collectivity such as a state, a nation, a race, or a social class.


political and social philosophy that emphasizes the moral worth of the individual. Although the concept of an individual may seem straightforward, there are many ways of understanding it, both in theory and in practice.

it's a shame You Tube doesn't link, It is a good series.

I am an individualist.

The founders were also Individualists. The Constitution and the Bill of right and writings of the time show the effort to protect the rights of the Individual from the Government, and from a majority rule at the expence of the individual,or minority.
The purpose of our Government was to protect the Rights and Liberties of the people.

The Uninted States Is Not A Democracy.
We have democraticly elected representitives, but the Constitution was to protect against Mob Rule at the ballot box.
The Uninted States is a Constitutional Republic.
We were a nation of Free People, but we are loseing that. There are people in our Government, and have been for some time, who are of the collectiveist mind. Government grows bigger and our right and Freedoms are less.
I am opposed to Collectivism, whether it is under the communist,socalist,or globalist Banner.
While every one is focused on the trivial fiddly bits of health care and retirement income your missing the bigger picture.

One strange thing I found, On the "Racical Extreme"end of both these Philosophies is Anarchy.

By David Soumis (Davesou) on Saturday, February 16, 2008 - 11:13 am:

This is a great post, Peter. Great points that we all should look into more.

could you post that youtube link as just the text...space out the letters of the word that is getting blocked...
or perhaps send it to me via email...thanks

By FRNash/PHX, AZ (Frnash) on Saturday, February 16, 2008 - 11:41 am:

David Soumis (Davesou):
"the letters of the word that is getting blocked"

Whatchawanna bet the bocked part is:
"y o u t u b e <dot> c o m"

You can just copy the original censored version, paste it into your browser, then correct it there.

By FRNash/PHX, AZ (Frnash) on Saturday, February 16, 2008 - 11:44 am:

"bocked" = "blocked"!
(S'cuse me while I fill my coffee cup!)

By Heikki (Heikki) on Saturday, February 16, 2008 - 12:21 pm:

Are you sure that's only coffee in your cup? ;-)

By Heikki (Heikki) on Saturday, February 16, 2008 - 12:43 pm:

Individualism is a noble goal, but like perfectionism, is never achieved. Collectivism, being the other extreme, has been proved a failure in many parts of the world. Somewhere in the middle lies the ideal. While we should strive to be self-sufficient, let's not fool ourselves into thinking it's a panacea. Individualism's merit lies in minimizing the need for social safety nets, but safety nets are still necessary.
The danger lies where a society develops an 'entitlement mentality', where the state is looked to for resolution of all problems.

By Matt Karhu (Matt_k) on Saturday, February 16, 2008 - 02:31 pm:

Perhaps we need a clarification of what a democracy and a republic are with respect to the U.S government:

Democracy signifies popular government as defined in Lincoln's phrase, "government of the people, by the people, and for the people."

At the present day, when democratic ideals have made great progress, republics are generally considered democracies, as evidenced by the many reforms in Federal and State govenments, and by the U.S. Constitution and its amendments.

Radical right-wing talk show hosts and many conservative Republicans prefer to ignore these facts.

By Peter Osmar (Pcosmar) on Saturday, February 16, 2008 - 03:19 pm:

Matt Karhu (Matt_k)
Clarification is easy, though the difference has not been taught widely, and it is often confused.
From the Wiki.
A constitutional republic is a state where the head of state and other officials are elected as representatives of the people, and must govern according to existing constitutional law that limits the government's power over citizens. In a constitutional republic, executive, legislative, and judicial powers are separated into distinct branches and the will of the majority of the population is tempered by protections for individual rights so that no individual or group has absolute power. The fact that a constitution exists that limits the government's power makes the state constitutional. That the head(s) of state and other officials are chosen by election, rather than inheriting their positions, and that their decisions are subject to judicial review makes a state republican.
Also for comparison.
The difference between a republic and a democracy was once widely understood in America. The U.S. War Department (superseded by the Department of Defense) taught that difference in a training manual (No. 2000-25) published on November 30, 1928. This official U.S. government document, used at the time for the training of American military personnel, said of democracy:

A government of the masses.

Authority derived through mass meeting or any other form of 'direct' expression.

Results in mobocracy.

Attitude toward property is communistic - negating property rights.

Attitude toward law is that the will of the majority shall regulate, whether it be based upon deliberation

or governed by passion, prejudice, and impulse, without restraint or regard to consequences.

Results in demogogism, license, agitation, discontent, anarchy."

It went on to state: "Our Constitutional fathers, familiar with the strength and weakness of both autocracy and democracy, with fixed principles definitely in mind, defined a representative republican form of government. They 'made a very marked distinction between a republic and a democracy and said repeatedly and emphatically that they had founded a republic.' "

A quick search of a dictionary can help also.

By Matt Karhu (Matt_k) on Sunday, February 17, 2008 - 08:23 am:

Well stated, Peter. It is what is in practice in the U.S. federal, state, and local governments that defines to what extent a republic exists. I suspect most non-voters have little concern about such matters.

By dan belo (Djbelo) on Friday, April 11, 2008 - 08:04 am:

some would change the 5th comandment to THOU SHALT NOT MURDER UNLESS ITS INCONVENIENT

By Matt Karhu (Matt_k) on Friday, April 11, 2008 - 01:09 pm:

Re Peter Osmar's commentary, maybe someone would like to list a few of the important strengths and weaknesses of a democracy and of a republic. Perhaps the present U.S. federal government administration has some important strengths and weaknesses that could be mentioned.

By Russell E. Emmons (Russemmons) on Wednesday, April 16, 2008 - 10:48 pm:

When will the "state of the economy" NOT apply as a reason for giving us additional, environmentally destructive developement in the form of more roads, more condos, more high priced homes, more business parks, more big box stores, and more golfing courses.

(author unknown)

By Russell E. Emmons (Russemmons) on Tuesday, April 22, 2008 - 01:51 am:

In recent months a test project was done by a New York University. (I didn't catch which one but the project head was a Professor Amilio)
This project involved extensive testing and studys of a cross section of many people of all types. Equal numbers of known Conservatives and Liberals purposely.
Tests of all types were given from puzzles, IQ, aptitude, etc. etc. everything on up to EEGs etc. but short of a lie detector.

Liberals consistently scored highest on quizzes, problem solving,logic and rational. This was not to say Conservatives are not intelligent. What they did find was their brains are wired differently so to speak and thus Conservatives and Liberals actually think differently! Liberals don't think they way they do by being Democrats nor do Conservatives get the way they are by being Republicans. They gravitate to their respective partys because they naturally think the way they do in the first place!

Liberals did better on these tests because they are open minded and use logic and reason. Whereas Conservatives are closed minded, structured, authoritative, fixed, and don't like changes.
Conservatives think in terms of pro OR con, Liberals in terms of pro AND con.

However it doesn't take scientific studys to see this in the population in general. They've always said "there are two kinds of people"! Also could explain "opposites attract" in relationships! (You know who you are then!)

Further on this from a thread on another website where anthropomorphism was being intently discussed: I quote a Matthew Schaut (who I think may be a professor at U of M):
"Despite having complex brains capable of forethought and complex emotions, many humans never get to the place where they can engage in complex cognitive processing. And/or their brains or forebrains are hijacked by their more primitive emotional brain (the limbic system, the amygdala etc.) The same brain processes occur in addiction, politics, global warming denial and in animal wefare. This is the anthropomorphism that is killing our planet."

Just remember folks I didn't author this. Just passing it on.

By Peter Osmar (Pcosmar) on Tuesday, April 22, 2008 - 08:22 am:

Russell E. Emmons (Russemmons)
Do you have a link to this study?
I would be very interested, especially in the criteria and definition of "conservative" and "liberal".
As I have never seen any accurate definition, I would be interested in what he used.

Frankly it sounds like Fabian Society elitism.
Reshaping the world after their hearts desire.

By Russell E. Emmons (Russemmons) on Tuesday, April 22, 2008 - 06:47 pm:

Peter: No link, I saw it on several TV newscasts some time back. Yes FOX News also! Then I heard it on talk radio shows with interviews of participating people. Was surprised not many caught it! I Googled and found further on it.
Don't know if they determined, or if there is any accurate actual description written in stone! I described basically methods they used(not "he").

Never heard of "Fabian Society elitism" I guess I could Google on that!
"Reshaping the world after their hearts desire" ? ? Seems like a lot of that going on these days all over from all different factions! Religions, Political doctrines, Social reform groups, Corporations, Educational, philosophical organizations, cults, etc. etc. Hmmmm,--- but then its always been that way! To each his own!

By Heikki (Heikki) on Tuesday, April 22, 2008 - 09:43 pm:


Prof. Amodio is the name, not Amilio. I vaguely remember seeing this, too, so did a search:


Prof. Amodio rightly concludes the exercise is unscientific. Was probably a slow day and some grant money was burning a hole in his pocket.

Really hate to sound cynical but my gawd, with all the junk science floating about these days, isn't it time taxpayers demand a better quality product?

By Peter Osmar (Pcosmar) on Wednesday, April 23, 2008 - 11:03 am:

Fabian Society

From the wiki ( for quick reference only)

"The Fabian Society is a British socialist movement, whose purpose is to advance the principles of Social democracy via gradualist and reformist, rather than revolutionary means. It is best known for its initial ground-breaking work beginning late in the nineteenth century and continuing up to World War I."

I ran across them in researching the CFR witch is a branch or offshoot of he Fabian Society.
Their stated goal is to reshape the world as a socialist utopia.
They share the same goals as the Marxist/Leninist, but use tactics of stealth and subterfuge rather than violent revolution.
Their "crest" is of a wolf in sheep's clothing.

And their motto is
"Re mold it nearer to the hearts desire."
The American members came into power in the US under Wilson's Administration, The CFR was formed as well as the Federal Reserve.
The present two party system we have today is controlled by the members. Whether you chose "R" or "D" makes little difference as it is only an illusion of choice. Both parties do as they are told.

As I have said before, I am an "Individualist" and reject "collectivism" in all its forms.
This country was formed by Individualists, and our Constitution was written to protect the Rights of the Individual, from the will and passions of the majority.
I would like to see a return to those principals.
However the direction we are going is toward a One World Globalist Government, with a socialist agenda.

I am opposed to that.

By Russell E. Emmons (Russemmons) on Tuesday, May 13, 2008 - 11:18 pm:

A black person voting Republican is the same as a chicken voting for Colonel Sanders!

By Peter Osmar (Pcosmar) on Wednesday, May 14, 2008 - 12:17 am:

By Russell E. Emmons (Russemmons)
"A black person voting Republican is the same as a chicken voting for Colonel Sanders!"

Not only crude, but ridiculous.

By David Hiltunen (Davidcorrytontn) on Wednesday, May 14, 2008 - 12:46 pm:

I read what my good friend Russ wrote yesterday. I did,and still don't know how to reply to that. Happy to see someone else did however. Some how, some way we must find a way to reach out to these folks whose mind is to open on the Left side,and bring them home to the real America the rest of us live in and love. One can not help what Country you was born it. But like many if you don't like the one that was given to you my the grace of God,you can try to sneak into another one.But it won't be as easy to do like this one.The best way is to buy your way in.Oh there in lay's the problem, America is not the Land Of Opportunity for so many. Such a shame.

By Snowman (Snowman) on Thursday, May 15, 2008 - 08:45 am:

TSK, TSK, TSK, do I detect a bit of racism????

By Peter Osmar (Pcosmar) on Thursday, May 15, 2008 - 11:06 am:

I see words being thrown around, and there seems to be some confusion as to their meanings.
The Founders of this Country were liberals, with a very libertarian philosophy. But today those that hold these views ate conservatives.
In years past, those that opposed the Civil rights movement(mostly southern democrats) were conservative. Those pushing for equal rights were liberal.
Today we have a Socialist leaning, big government, Globalist being sold as a conservative.
Both parties are taking us toward a socialist one world government, the only difference is in how they package it. They both say the same things, but change the wording.
There is NO liberal v conservative.
There is no real difference between "R" and "D".
There is only Individualist V collectivist, and very few individualists running for office.

By Peter Osmar (Pcosmar) on Thursday, May 15, 2008 - 12:46 pm:


above""ate conservatives"". should be ARE conservative.
Spell Check doesn't work when the wrong word is spelled correctly.

By Kathy P. (Katiaire) on Friday, May 16, 2008 - 12:16 am:

Peter, I couldn't agree with you more. Very nicely said.

By Heikki (Heikki) on Saturday, May 17, 2008 - 11:41 am:

I fail to see two distinct camps labeled Conservative and Liberal except for some fringe groups. What I have observed for decades is a grand mix of political leanings comprised of social liberal/fiscal conservative....social conservative/fiscal liberal (G.W., for instance)....and various mixtures of the same. I think this is borne out by the unpredictability of several election results over the years. The reason the two parties tend to blur into one at times are the issues of the day, and not strongly held ideologies. As Barack Obama cites in his book, The Audacity of Hope, "Voters don't pick candidates; candidates pick voters", so any prudent candidate who truly wants to win is going to appeal (pander) to whom the polls indicate are the greatest number of voters concerned about certain major issues. This is just my take on this and may be wrong (and it ain't the first time! lol). This is why candidates will spin their positions one way in the primaries and slightly different in the general election. Some will do it more than others.....but they will all do it if felt necessary to win.

By sandra harrington (Sandra) on Sunday, May 18, 2008 - 11:39 am:

liberal--someone who wants something for nothing free free free wealth redistrabution hate rich people unless of course it's themselves do not kill precious animals but kill the unborn thats great they hate humans they want ten bucks a gallon gas even if eveyone has to starve --you will have clean air to breath while you are starving-- save the earth for only creatures we humans are not suppose to be here-- wake up libs!! John Kennedy said it best. Ask not what your country can do for you ask what you can do for your country. PEACE AND LOVE

By David Hiltunen (Davidcorrytontn) on Sunday, May 18, 2008 - 05:19 pm:

Candidates only have to pander to 20% the other 80% know what the will do long before hand.

Bob Barr will take away enough votes from conservative Republicans who will not hold their nose and vote for McCain, allowing the Socialist Obama to win.

By Peter Osmar (Pcosmar) on Sunday, May 18, 2008 - 07:54 pm:

David Hiltunen (Davidcorrytontn)
There was only one Conservative in the Republican race, and they did not want him there.
The GOP is actively handing the election to the Democrats. Any third party candidate will have little effect, and would not matter.
There is virtually NO difference between McCain and Obama/Clinton, but the GOP has gone out of it's way to push this on the party.
Those that are unhappy will be vocal at the convention. That is the best we can do.

By Matt Karhu (Matt_k) on Tuesday, May 20, 2008 - 05:34 pm:

I find it interesting that most of us sensible Republican citizens in the area of the Midwest where I reside don't describe Democratic liberal citizens we know with the terms Sandra uses. In this area where Democrats outnumber Republicans, I and my friends have yet to meet so-called liberals who fit her description. Perhaps Sandra has been a gullible victim of overzealous self-serving media propagandists?

By Heikki (Heikki) on Wednesday, May 21, 2008 - 08:01 am:

"....Candidates only have to pander to 20% the other 80% know what the will do long before hand....."

Yes, David, that does seem to be popular opinion...circa 40% Dem/40% GOP who consistently vote party line, with 20% making up 3rd party and Independents. That reminds me of 1984 when RWR took around 60% of the popular vote, with Mondale only winning his home state. A rout by any standard, which means RWR may have captured the entire 20% of the middle. I haven't checked any stats on that election cycle, but I think a lot of Democrats voted for Reagan, too. Perhaps he took 15% of the middle, because many 3rd party folks are so steeped in their beliefs there are no Dem or GOP candidates worthy of their vote. Again, it all depends on the issues of the day. I would say fiscal conservatives (belonging to any party) make up the majority of voters, though. It's the social issues that have resulted in tight election results lately.

Bob Barr....what a piece of work. Y'know, some men can wear a moustache and appear distinguished. Barr's makes him appear devious. I know I wouldn't buy a used car from him. LOL!

By Heikki (Heikki) on Wednesday, May 21, 2008 - 09:19 am:

I agree wholeheartedly with Sen. Hillary Clinton when she insinuates that Sen. Barack Obama is not qualified or capable of running this country. I agree wholeheartedly with Sen. Barack Obama when he insinuates that Sen. Hillary Clinton is not qualified or capable of running this country.

For the first time since JFK I am in agreement with the Democrat candidates! :-)

C'mon, folks. Might as well laugh about it. This whole election cycle is a joke, unless I'm just getting old and jaded. But we'll survive. Our country has experienced worse. Today, hug a person of opposite political ideology than yourself. It'll make you feel better. Really!

By Michael Du Long (Mikie) on Thursday, May 22, 2008 - 09:53 pm:

People are complaining about the price of gas. Get out your emails and start sending them to the idiots that represent you. Tell them how you feel about the price of gas and food skyrocketing. If enough people complain they will do something. Don't just blame the President, the congress is just as much to blame as he is. I email my senator every day telling him how disapointed I am in him. I worked all my life to have a nice retirement and now with the price of gas I will have to ride a bike in order to do anything. What are we going to do this winter when we have to pay an asorbenent amount of money for heat. Right now I keep my house at 68 will I have to drop it down to 48 in order to live. Whats next sharing Jimmie the fat white cats food. Both parties are just as guilty of raping the American public. We yoopers are a hardy group. I don't want to have to start using the fireplace in order to stay warm because I can't afford the fuel to heat the house. I hope everyone will contact their represenatives in Washington.

By Deb S. (Usedtobeayooper) on Thursday, May 22, 2008 - 10:20 pm:

Mikie, I have just e-mailed one of our senators. I will continue to do this also, until they get so darn sick of hearing from me that they do something about it. I'm going to e-mail the governor too. It's time they get off their dead butts and actually do something about all of this. You're right, we're not going to be able to afford to live anymore. My parents will never get by at this rate. They're all a bunch of fools, rich fools though.

By Heikki (Heikki) on Thursday, May 22, 2008 - 11:18 pm:

The chickens are coming home to roost after having no comprehensive policy for energy independence since 1974, when OPEC first demonstrated their ability to affect our economy. This didn't happen overnight and won't be rectified overnight. Plan NOW for managing next winter. No amount of complaining will help other than giving temporary stress relief.

By FJL (Langoman) on Friday, May 23, 2008 - 10:01 am:

Not to worry folk's, the Senate is going to sue OPEC for more oil...Every thing is right with the world.....The stupidity of this action should be clear to all........

By Peter Osmar (Pcosmar) on Monday, May 26, 2008 - 10:54 am:

This was posted on another forum I visit,
The discussion was on Government corruption.

''God bless serendipity. This showed up in my inbox today:

Politicians are the only people in the world who create problems and then campaign against them.

Have you ever wondered why, if both the Democrats and the Republicans are against deficits, we have deficits?

Have you ever wondered why, if all the politicians are against inflation and high taxes, we have inflation and high taxes?

You and I don't propose a federal budget. The president does.

You and I don't have the Constitutional authority to vote on appropriations. The House of Representatives does.

You and I don't write the tax code, Congress does.

You and I don't set fiscal policy, Congress does.

You and I don't control monetary policy, the Federal Reserve Bank does.

One hundred senators, 435 congressmen, one president, and nine Supreme Court justices -- 545 human beings out of the 300 million -- are directly, legally, morally, and individually responsible for the domestic problems that plague this country.

I excluded the members of the Federal Reserve Board because that problem was created by the Congress. In 1913, Congress delegated its Constitutional duty to provide a sound currency to a federally chartered, but private, central bank.

I excluded all the special interests and lobbyists for a sound reason. They have no legal authority. They have no ability to coerce a senator, a congressman, or a president to do one cotton-picking thing. I don't care if they offer a politician $1 million dollars in cash. The politician has the power to accept or reject it. No matter what the lobbyist promises, it is the legislator's responsibility to determine how he votes.

Those 545 human beings spend much of their energy convincing you that what they did is not their fault. They cooperate in this common con regardless of party.

What separates a politician from a normal human being is an excessive amount of gall. No normal human being would have the gall of a Speaker, who stood up and criticized the President for creating deficits. The president can only propose a budget. He cannot force the Congress to accept it.

The Constitution, which is the supreme law of the land, gives sole responsibility to the House of Representatives for originating and approving appropriations and taxes. Who is the speaker of the House? She is the leader of the majority party.
She and fellow House members, not the president, can approve any budget they want. If the president vetoes it, they can pass it over his veto if they agree to.

It seems inconceivable to me that a nation of 300 million can not replace 545 people who stand convicted -- by present facts -- of incompetence and irresponsibility. I can't think of a single domestic problem that is not traceable directly to those 545 people. When you fully grasp the plain truth that 545 people exercise the power of the federal government, then it must follow that what exists is what they want to exist.

If the tax code is unfair, it's because they want it unfair.

If the budget is in the red, it's because they want it in the red.

If the Marines are in IRAQ, it's because they want them in IRAQ.

If they do not receive social security but are on an elite retirement plan not available to the people, it's because they want it that way.

There are no insoluble government problems.

Do not let these 545 people shift the blame to bureaucrats, whom they hire and whose jobs they can abolish; to lobbyists, whose gifts and advice they can reject; to regulators, to whom they give the power to regulate and from whom they can take this power. Above all, do not let them con you into the belief that there exists disembodied mystical forces like 'the economy,' 'inflation,' or 'politics' that prevent them from doing what they take an oath to do.

Those 545 people, and they alone, are responsible.

They, and they alone, have the power.

They, and they alone, should be held accountable by the people who are their bosses -- provided the voters have the gumption to manage their own employees.

We should vote all of them out of office and clean up their mess!",end quote.

It is attributed to Charlie Reese, but I can't seem to find the original, so it may one of those fake Charlie Daniels/Ted Nugent/George Carlin rants that occasionally infest everyone's email, but the sentiment is right on, whoever wrote it.

It is a good article, whoever wrote it.

By Heikki (Heikki) on Monday, May 26, 2008 - 05:35 pm:

Scroll up, Peter. You'll find another just like it if not the same. ;-) Lotta truth to it! There is a very crude portrayal of this same msg on either the Kid From Brooklyn or the Guy From Boston websites. I won't post the links because it's against the rules of this site. (Ya gotta have calloused ears to listen to it.)

By Peter Osmar (Pcosmar) on Monday, May 26, 2008 - 10:03 pm:

Opps, I found it.
I may even have read it a couple months ago.
I just ran across it today, and it rings true.
So how do we get this to all the rest of the sleeping masses.

One at a time.
Would anyone like a "red" pill?

By Matt Karhu (Matt_k) on Tuesday, May 27, 2008 - 09:16 am:

With regard to Peter's lengthy commentary of May 26, let us not forget that most of today's problems began long before the current Federal government leadership took office. To paraphrase, "The train left the station long ago with people who had little sincere regard for the condition of the tracks and the ultimate destination."

By Russell E. Emmons (Russemmons) on Monday, June 23, 2008 - 05:10 pm:

"The most important political office is that of private citizen"

"The whole aim of practical politics is to keep the populace alarmed (and hence clamorous to be led to safety) by menacing it with an endless series of hobgoblins, all of them imaginary"
>>>H.L. Mencken

By k j (Kathiscc) on Thursday, July 10, 2008 - 04:24 am:

Check this out-

By FJL (Langoman) on Thursday, July 10, 2008 - 12:35 pm:

What a bunch of "gobble-dy-gook".... Fits right in with Al Gore and Micky "Mouse" Moore.......

By Eugene Zuverink (Zube) on Saturday, July 12, 2008 - 09:50 am:

Looks like Michael Moore junk to me.

By David Soumis (Davesou) on Thursday, July 17, 2008 - 05:47 pm:

I got a bunch of posts about a swastika or something in my email...have they all been deleted ?

As far as Sen. McCain...I'm not sure why everyone, or a lot of people, think that because he was a POW, and was in the military, retired as a captain or not, doesn't necessarily make him a great leader, or even presidential material. I honestly don't get it.

Perhaps the guy has a lot of resentment and false ideals so that's why he appears to be such a stalwart on sticking out the IRAQ war.
He may be a longtime senator, and you have to respect that, and his time as a POW, and so forth, but the guy has a temper that appears to be uncontrollable. Do you want a guy like that holding the trigger to a vast arsenal of atomic weapons?

Do you really want a guy that in 2008, cannot even use a computer and read email? i heard he's now learning to use "the google". Well, maybe there is hope for him.

That healthcare plan of his is going to take away everyone's healthcare...yikes.

I'm not an obama fan either, so don't stick me with that liberal label.

By Heikki (Heikki) on Friday, July 18, 2008 - 11:22 am:

There are more salient characteristics of John McCain that made him not my first choice for GOP presidential candidate than not being computer savvy. There are many in his age group that never had the desire to operate a PC, yet were qualified to do more challenging things in life. And being computer literate certainly isn't a barometer for intelligence. Just read comments posted in on-line news articles and youtube. I think that'll make my point. Besides, when one is a senator or chief executive, who needs to be computer savvy? That's something his/her staff will handle. I don't like McCain's stance on illegal immigration or his shared role with WI's Dufus Feingold's poorly thought-out campaign finance reform. Bill Clinton and Hillary both have terrible tempers, too, and we've survived them. That's one thing I have against GW. He's far too easy going. After all the flak and undermining he has experienced by the left on the hill, he should have taken the issues to the people as RWR would have, or give them a piece of his mind as HST would have done. My thoughts are to the contrary. One must have fire and fight in them to perform in Washington.....but then, I'm not Prez. I guess history will prove if GW has been behaving properly. Since neither candidate fully meet my desires in a president, I'm backing McCain solely because he has proven his loyalty to this country while his opponent still has a lot of explaining to do in my estimation. Besides, we've had only a few outstanding presidents in the history of our country. I think we can thank the checks and balances in the system for surviving mediocre presidents and tolerate one more without folding. I simply don't trust Obama.....and I've read his books....listened to his speeches....observed him trying to disassociate himself with his spiritual mentor of 20 years and other shady characters in Illinois politics.....watched him change position on issues important to me depending on to whom he was speaking (very transparent), and besides all that, he carries a very thin resume for a person who wants to be my Commander-in-Chief. Nyet, to Obama. Aye, to McCain.

By David Hiltunen (Davidcorrytontn) on Friday, July 18, 2008 - 01:42 pm:

Heikki, I am right beside you with what you wrote.
And so so many people think the same.

By Eugene Zuverink (Zube) on Friday, July 18, 2008 - 01:59 pm:

Heikki, It couldn't have been written any better, I agree.
What scares me is, I heard the Quran says, once a Muslim always a muslim, they will see to that.
If it wasn't for pressure he would still be a member of that radical UCOC.

By JH (Thumbgardener) on Friday, July 18, 2008 - 02:03 pm:

Well said, Heikki.

By Deb S. (Usedtobeayooper) on Friday, July 18, 2008 - 09:53 pm:

I like what Davesou has to say, but I also like what Heikki has to say. That was very well said Heikki. Normally I would be voting for the Democratic candidate. Though I haven't always liked what they stand for, I've considered them to be the lesser of 2 evils most of the time. This year I have to say that I don't like either candidate. And tell me why, when I don't know one person who DOES like either candidate, that we have these 2 people running for President. Not one person that I personally know likes either of these candidates, and are wondering what the point of voting is. So, if we don't want these people running, why are they? How did they get to this point? Who on earth got them both nominated?
I don't care for McCain. However, I believe he is an American through and through. I can't say that about Obama. No matter how much he may protest (and I do believe he doth protest too much), I do not believe he loves this country and I do not believe I could ever vote for a person who has been Muslim. Yes, once a Muslim, always a Muslim. I believe we will be in terrible trouble if he gets elected. McCain is old, and I do not like a lot of what he stands for, but I would rather see him in office than I would Obama. He's a very scary man.
So, no matter who is in office, I believe we will have a problem. However, in this case, I believe McCain will be the lesser of two evils.

By A. David Archibald (Yooperatheart61) on Tuesday, July 22, 2008 - 09:54 pm:

It is very hard to understand why people on this site are still showing there ignorance and prejudice. Obama is not now or had ever been a Muslim. You should at the very least base your opinion of somebody based on the truth. How many of you realize that you can now be arrested and held without trial based solely on certain people say so. The Constitution is being shredded before your very eyes without a lot of you saying a word. I'm sure your children,grand children, great grand children etc. will really thank you for the shape of the country you seem happy to leave them. Just based on any intelligence at all,we need a fundamental change in the direction our country is heading and the neo-con thinking (regardless of party) won't do it. Even T. Boone Pickens say you can't drill your way out of our oil dependency. If you really want to support our troops bring them home. They are only fighting a war for the benefit of corporations who don't give a ---- about them or anyone of either the poor or the middle class. Why do you continue to vote for people who don't have your interests at heart.
Some people were very upset about an article that referred to the Nazi's. You should read about exactly how the Nazis took control of Germany before you get yourselves in an uproar about something that unfortunately is more truthful then not. Also look up about what a fascist state is and again we are fast approaching becoming exactly that.
There is plenty of blame to go around to both main political parties. Why not try and put your prejudices aside and get yourselves informed before our country becomes a total Fascist State, a country run by the corporations for the benefit of said corporations. Unrestricted Capitalism doesn't work because greed takes over.


By David Soumis (Davesou) on Tuesday, July 22, 2008 - 11:12 pm:

truer words never spoken A. David A.

Time to wake up.
I could never figure why people voted against their best interests. Its not like the majority of us are ever going to be the rich cats...its mainly a pipe dream formulated to keep us supporting their dirty deeds...albeit the fact most of them are done incognito because we're not paying attention to the signs. They're all around us. wake up.

By Heikki (Heikki) on Wednesday, July 23, 2008 - 08:20 am:

Although Obama claims his mother introduced him to many forms of religion, nevertheless, he did attend a Muslim school while living in Indonesia. Unless one is totally familiar with the school he attended, one cannot say with any certainty he was or was not instructed, or at least influenced, in the ways of Islam. This is why I choose to not proclaim he is Muslim. However, during one's formative years, peer influence plays a major role in shaping an individual. In these times a person of that background bears watching. If some folks choose to draw a conclusion as to Obama's religious leanings based on this, so be it. At this point in time neither can be proved. As with any endeavor in trying to learn what makes an individual 'tick', rely not on what they say (or write), but instead, study their actions. This is particulary true of politicians. Study Obama's voting record in the Illinois Senate and during the 143 days or so he was present during U.S. Senate proceedings. That will be the best indicator of where he stands politically. Study his friends and acquaintances, with special emphasis on his self-proclaimed spiritual mentor. That will tell you with whom he feels most comfortable. What he is currently espousing with regard to our military presence in Iraq and Afghanistan must be taken with a grain of salt. It is simply campaign rhetoric designed to move his perceived ideology toward the center (agreeing we need more troops in Afghanistan). But enough on that......for there are larger fish to fry and it has to do with energy independence. Energy costs are our largest national security threat for now, and if we don't utilize proven, existing technology to suppress prices, the most pessimistic among us will realize their dreams. Even a serious threat to increase oil supplies on the world market will cause speculators' and OPEC's influence on prices to wan. With respect to T.Boone Pickens, it should be mentioned he is heavily invested in wind energy. Heavily enough to question the objectivity of his stance on increased oil production. Alternative forms of energy is a noble quest, but the time has not arrived whereby it, in itself, can turn around our skyrocketing energy costs.

On Hitler and Nazism: Hitler rose to power during extreme economic difficulties in Germany. They were in an inflationary spiral after WWI. People were looking for a "messiah" and Hitler was portrayed as such. Berliners feared Hitler from the onset, but his popularity wave soon drowned them in a sea for 'change' that overtook the country........ and the rest is history. There are similarities between Obama's and Hitler's rise in popularity.

One other thing: During political discourse, or any discussion for that matter, one should never make personal attacks against those with whom one may disagree. Question the idea or comment, but please keep disparaging remarks out of it. It contributes nothing to the discussion and only serves to inflame emotions.

By Tom (Tom) on Wednesday, July 23, 2008 - 11:15 am:

Perhaps the most important thing to fear is the move towards socialism if Obama wins. I am not sure if McCain swings in that direction or not. He has always been a government employee whether in the Navy or in the Senate. Obama has never held a private sector job either. So it is somewhat natural for people like that to think government is the only solution to problems. T. Boone Pickens was testifying in D.C. yesterday. He supports the private sector to cure our energy problem. However, he did comment that gov't encouragement of some kind might be necessary if the private sector doesn't move fast enough.
If people want 500+ elected people in D.C. to make decisions for them we are in trouble. How can so few make wise decisions for over 300,000,000 people? They can't.

By Eugene Zuverink (Zube) on Wednesday, July 23, 2008 - 10:54 pm:

David Archibald, I suggest you get yourself informed.You are very firm that Obama was not and is not a Muslim. I suggest you prove it. Who are you suggesting is taking over are country.
Obama doesn't want to wear a pin with our American flag on it on his jacket, another picture when the National Anthem was being played he wouldn't put his hand over his heart,and you trust this kid. Don't be so firm on his not being a Muslim, you don't know.

By A. David Archibald (Yooperatheart61) on Thursday, July 24, 2008 - 01:38 pm:

Mr. Zuverink:
Nothing anybody can say will ever convince you or people like you of anything so I'm not going to try. There is plenty "Proof" out there. Not one thing I said is not true. I spent my first few school in a "Public" school taught by nuns, it didn't make me a Roman Catholic. A persons prejudice clouds their ability to reason clearly.
I believe you once ask me to "proof" "W" was a liar and that also is a well proven statement. He continues to tell less then the truth almost daily.
Why do you want to continue a system that clearly benefits a very select elite few. Most people in favor of our present system seem to think they aren't worthy of equal and fair treatment as our present system is really a huge corporate welfare system. There are lots of books that explain how that is taking place. I for one am sick of this trickle down economy which has moved everything they can to the third world countries.
General Comment:
Also, I doubt people who object to treating people like they would like to be treated if the shoe were on the other foot will change due in great measure to Prejudices and Ignorances about what the people who are really making the decisions have in mind for them. Lets just say, they don't have anybodies interest at heart except their own and that doesn't benefit the average person living in the USA or anywhere else for that matter. PEACE!!

By A. David Archibald (Yooperatheart61) on Thursday, July 24, 2008 - 02:00 pm:

Mr. Zuverink:
Once last thing. wearing a pin on your collar does not make you or anyone else a patriot. Start by upholding our "Constitution" which our present government is not doing. When we served our country we swore to uphold the "Constitution" not to blindly obey any particular C-in-C. Look in it up in the UCMJ and you will find it was you duty to disobey an order if it was unlawful. A lot of what is going on in our country today is in direct violation of the "constitution" whether or not people realize it. The President with Congressional help is bypassing what the "constitution" stands for by passing laws to make their action legal after the fact. FISA is just the latest such action.

By Eugene Zuverink (Zube) on Thursday, July 24, 2008 - 05:13 pm:

Mr. Archibald
Your just talking, you still haven't given any facts that Obama was or is not a Muslim.
If there is plenty proof out there, bring it on.It's people like you that just runs every thing down and complain. Is there nothing good you can find about our country.
You can say our President is a liar. You have never given one ounce of facts to prove it.
Your just talking. Tell us something good, you are always complaining. Cheer up once.

By Eugene Zuverink (Zube) on Thursday, July 24, 2008 - 07:11 pm:

David A
On Dec 17, 2007, your very first post on this site said, these are your very words.
"GEORGE W BUSH is a BORN AGAIN LIAR" and then you wrote, these are you exat words."These are easy to proof' your words, and still you have shown NOTHING.

By A. David Archibald (Yooperatheart61) on Thursday, July 24, 2008 - 10:05 pm:

Mr. Zuverink:
Just read of listen to just about anything"W" has said(not on FOX NEWS),then wait a little while to see what actually has happened, and poof "Proof" "W" is a liar. As far as Obama being a Muslim, He attends services at a Christian Church,not a Mosque. He doesn't face Mecca and pray 5 times a day, If he were a Muslim he would certainly be doing those things. I realize that you aren't going to change as I said in my first recent post.

While I read everyone posts, it is time again to let everything go unchallenged. I see that most people who used to be for change on this site have quit posting anything,thus leaving this site mostly to people who apparently are not affected by the lousy economy and are happy with the Status Quo,and the USA's foreign policy.( committing war crimes in their name in a great many parts of the world). Silence makes us complicit in said crimes. We tried and convicted Germans for the same behavior after WWII. Just a note here for anyone who believes themselves to be Christian, in the Bible I read I'm unable to find where it tells me to kill anyone because I disagree with his politics. We are doing exactly that in many places in the world. We have either invaded or interfered with, the internal affairs, of over
fifty(50)countries since WWII.
Good Bye! Farewell! Shalom! PEACE!

By Eugene Zuverink (Zube) on Thursday, July 24, 2008 - 10:51 pm:

Do any of you who read this understand one word Archibald is saying. I don't

By David Soumis (Davesou) on Thursday, July 24, 2008 - 11:21 pm:

come on Eugene...
all you need to do is read a little bit and you will find plenty on the fact most of what Bush said to get us into that Iraq war is a lie.

I agree with pretty much everything A. David has said, but as he is finding out, the brain washing is so embedded in most of the people posting here, its pretty much a useless endeavor trying to say much about anything. Its why I quit posting here as well.

You guys have all drunk the cool-aid. Its too bad that your inaction and unwillingness to look beyond what you think is happening in this country by believing the right wing neocons will end up destroying the very freedoms why all fought to attain.

Democracy is dying in this country. nuff said.

By Heikki (Heikki) on Friday, July 25, 2008 - 07:44 am:

Come on Davesou....

Eugene has a valid argument going. I agree with him. Where's the proof? There have been countless accusations against President Bush over the past 7 years, yet with all the legal resources available (and constitutional power), his political enemies have yet to nail him. There's something terribly wrong with that picture. For years he has been portrayed as being stupid. Stupid people are easily caught. With all the pressure he's experienced trying to juggle the aftermaths of 9/11 and natural disasters, not to mention back-stabbing and undermining by rabid congressional members (where the real danger to freedom lies), he's still standing. Amazing!President Bush has been dealt situations where there are no good answers. But having lied and done unlawful acts???? That's a stretch. His political foes would have had his liver for dinner long ago, or perhaps he is far more intelligent than he's been portrayed. Can't have it both ways, fellas. I'm with Eugene. Where's the proof?

By Eugene Zuverink (Zube) on Friday, July 25, 2008 - 08:46 am:

Davesou, you are the people that are doing the brain washing by saying President Bush is a liar. We can read many things, but just because the democrats write it dosen't make it true. SO you can't convince us , your going to take your bat and go home, come on stay with it. How many democrats also thought there was WMDs in Iraq at that time, Hillary was one of them, listen to some of her speaches at that time, she was convinced just like President Bush,is she also a liar then. Davesou, where are the facts. I read and read,the only people calling him a liar arer the democrats, and they have done a good job of destroying this man.

By Snowman (Snowman) on Friday, July 25, 2008 - 09:15 am:

On another note, has anyone noticed how McCain is coping with Barack's nine day overseas campaign?

He stopped at a German restaurant in Ohio as Obama spoke in Berlin.

The Republican National Committee is running anti-Obama ads in Berlin, Pa. and other towns named Berlin in Wisconsin and New Hampshire.

He appeared with famed cyclist, Lance Armstrong Thursday night at a town hall meeting focused on cancer.

He'll meet with the Dalai Lama in Aspen, Colorado.

Wow, that McCain sure has some important issues going on. Now, let's see, who should I vote for?

By Heikki (Heikki) on Friday, July 25, 2008 - 09:54 am:

Snowman....Snowman....that's bad. LOL. I wouldn't call that 'coping'. I'd call it ignoring. Everybody knows Obama is trying to pimp Bush's ride in the Mid-East. McCain has been to those parts many times. Obama has yet to learn how to spell them correctly. In fact, that wannabe ticked me off real good yesterday when he voiced his opinion of how bad our country is.....in Germany, I believe. Then, a lackey reminded him to also say how much he loves the USA. Y'know, just for 'the folks' back home since they realized his comments were being broadcast. Obama is a global socialist. It comes through loud and clear in his books, thinking, and actions. He would have made a suitable replacement for Kofi Annan, but has no place in occupying the Oval Office if I can help it.

By Snowman (Snowman) on Friday, July 25, 2008 - 10:15 am:

Yeppers, that McBush, er, I mean McCain sure has all the makings for our next, hmm, our next, let's see, our next - - - I seem to be at a loss for words at this moment.

By Eugene Zuverink (Zube) on Friday, July 25, 2008 - 10:17 am:

If Obama gets elected, it will be the news media that elected him, because there all democrats as you know. McCain has to do his on his own.
Snowman, just listen to McCain, he does have something to say that makes sence.
Stay with us Davesou, will let you be the pitcher.I know your going to come back and say, what does he have to say, just listen to him

By Snowman (Snowman) on Friday, July 25, 2008 - 10:39 am:

You mean like this quote;
"We have a lot of work to do. It's a very hard struggle, particularly given the situation on the Iraq-Pakistan border." --Sen. John McCain, referring to a border that does not exist.

Guess he forgot to take his meds.

By Matt Karhu (Matt_k) on Friday, July 25, 2008 - 11:05 am:

It appears to me that many of the views expressed on this site parrot much of the political propaganda prevalent on radio and TV talk shows. I wonder if some of you have been drinking "Kool-Aid" and don't recognize what the agendas of the sources of your information are.

By Eugene Zuverink (Zube) on Friday, July 25, 2008 - 11:40 am:


By Heikki (Heikki) on Friday, July 25, 2008 - 11:43 am:

Last time I heard Bama speak w/o his teleprompter:
.....ah....the.......um.....ah....the messiah".
Yeah, we could do better than McCain, but not
worse than Obamessiah. LOL! What a hoot!!

By Eugene Zuverink (Zube) on Friday, July 25, 2008 - 12:03 pm:

Snowman, you know McCain didn't mean Pakistan, and he only missed by a few hundred miles.
How true that is Heikki, Just wait untill he is forced to go without that promter, that will be funny. Would some of you like to talk about our 9% democracted congress, there your people that are in charge. Just what can a President do without congress. BUT BUT BUT all the blame falls on Bush.

By Heikki (Heikki) on Friday, July 25, 2008 - 01:06 pm:

A view from across the pond......funny!!


By Snowman (Snowman) on Friday, July 25, 2008 - 01:24 pm:

Is this presidential race based on the colors red, white and blue or the colors black and white?

By Heikki (Heikki) on Friday, July 25, 2008 - 01:54 pm:

Red, white and blue to be sure. I would have loved to see Colin Powell run and become the first Afro-American prez, but Obama? No way! The left has failed the American public worse than the right this time around. It's Obama's political colors that are objectionable.

By David Hiltunen (Davidcorrytontn) on Friday, July 25, 2008 - 04:09 pm:

Hello voters I am back.

A lot of spitting and spaying going on here. Other then Liberman maybe? Find me a Democrat today who would stand at the Berlin Wall or any place as J.F.K. did in (was it 1963? ) and talk about Communism in the way he did? JFK started it, and Reagan was there to see that wall come down. That right there is enough for me to be a Republican. I loved JFK. and was proud of the Democrat party back then. Can't in my right mind feel that way today, and makes me wonder why you can?
Obama has a problem: What do you do when you're a lightly accomplished one-term senator, a former state legislator from Illinois, a Harvard law graduate who has no substantive record of accomplishments, and you are running against a war hero whom polls show that Americans overwhelmingly view as far more fit to be commander in chief?

So the man who would be president of the United States of America flies around the world in the middle of a political campaign, enlisting the U.S. military and the Berlin Wall as free campaign commercial backdrops, to lend him the emotional weight and substance ( the aura as a commander ) that he hasn't yet earned on his own. The whole Obama campaign is something we've never seen before, at least not executed to this level of perfection with a media willing to go along because, well, so many of them want it to succeed.

Poor John McCain. He's so last-century. Still living in a world in which deeds matter, policies matter, what you would actually do with the power entrusted to you matters. McCain lays out the facts in Iraq "Progress has been due mainly to an increase in the number of troops and a change in their strategy. Obama, he points out, still claims no political progress is being made. "Perhaps he's unaware that the U.S. embassy in Baghdad has recently certified that, as one news article put it, 'Iraq has met all but three of 18 original benchmarks set by Congress last year to measure security, political and economic progress. McCain's approach is all so, well, cognitive. McCain thinks that reality is something that really exists, that has to be dealt with, instead of recognizing that we live in a Brave New World where highly paid symbolic analysts construct reality by manipulating symbols.

The left imagines they learned this from Ronald Reagan and the rise of the right: big strong guy, genial, looks good on camera -- bingo! Maybe you can't fool all the people all the time, but you can fool 51 percent every time, with the right branding and the right kind of images. God help us when the people who think like that actually run all three branches of our government. President Obama, if that's our future, and his team of symbolic analysts will find out soon enough there are realities out there which none of his contrivances are going to be able to help him handle. More important, so will we.

Minimum wage? So you actually believe that it is the role of the government in our free enterprise economy to set wages? I believe there should be no minimum wage whatsoever. Because, even though I can tell you why there should be no minimum wage first, then I can tell you why there should be an increase in the minimum wage. (Did you read that right?)The minimum wage distorts the labor market and it distorts capitalism because when a man or one who should receive for his or her labor is based on supply and demand in the marketplace. We in America are no longer are an internal market. For most things, we compete against other countries and companies based all over the world. So when we have the government set minimum pay standards, what seems like a benevolent plan is actually a plan interfering in the competitive nature of the United States. Do you think any capitalist like myself cares where the units of production comes from? I am there to serve my stockholders wherever they are in the world, I'm supposed to generate profit if I can generate more profit making something in Thailand than I can make making something in Indonesia I will make it in Thailand. If I can make it in the United States, I'll make it in the United States. Wherever I find the efficient source of production is where I'm going to be.(You need jobs in the U.P.) Labor is just one component of my enterprise. Austin, TX. a city where they have so much computer fabrication and chip and manufacturing. Much of that production has become automated and for those companies, being close to the customer is more important the labor cost.

I am getting very long here, so I will take a break and let the (you know who's) on here weep awhile while you think of something to write, that will not make any sense to most of us. Then if you can not write explaining why we need a Minimum wage, I will do it for you as promised ok?

By Snowman (Snowman) on Friday, July 25, 2008 - 07:03 pm:

McCain; owns five homes and "oops" slipped his mind to pay taxes on one of them, hmmm, must be the meds again.

Obama; finally paid off his student loans.

Hmm, let's see, who should I vote for again?

Gramps or the Black Guy?

Get real people.

It has nothing to do with "red, white and blue", does it?

By Heikki (Heikki) on Friday, July 25, 2008 - 09:25 pm:

This is really trivial and has nothing to do with who is the most trustworthy to be our CIC, Snowman, but I think if you'd recheck your facts you'll find McCain's wife owns those homes and it was her name that came up with some sort of tax snafu. No big deal. They have a pre-nup agreement, something like John and Teresa Kerry. Barry and Michelle pulled down nearly $1,000,000 during 2006 according to their tax return, so they aren't exactly hurting. I'm sure they'll reap many millions more some day in more book sales and lecture fees. All the more power to them. They like power and money, too, just like the rest of them. No "Mother Teresas" in DC the last time I checked. So if you really want to get 'real', compare voting records of Gramps and the Black Guy. Neither fit the bill for an ideal candidate in my opinion, but Obama's record is the most hard to swallow for me. It's not consistent with the Red, White and Blue characteristics I expect from an American president. For starters, he is no friend to the 2nd Amendment, and like others of that ilk, will be no friend of the 1st Amendment should the former fall.

By Heikki (Heikki) on Friday, July 25, 2008 - 10:04 pm:

Barry Obama holding press interviews with 'stumps'?
Well, in a manner of speaking. Maybe he has difficulty comprehending the expression 'stumping for president'. This plastic wannabe has been holding 'press interviews' for photo op purposes with no reporters in sight, according to Andrea Mitchell. Talk about smoke and mirrors. I must say, his team is creative! LOL. Read the story here: http://news.yahoo.com/s/ucmg/20080722/cm_ucmg/obamafakingit

By David Soumis (Davesou) on Friday, July 25, 2008 - 10:38 pm:

this stuff on here is so wild, can't leave :)

Minimum wage: Well, if you want international competitiveness, and no minimum wage, how many Americans are going to be able to afford $.5o an hour? or probably less, to compete in the global economy and make it efficient for manufacturing to be here in the USA...
I understand why the jobs are leaving this country, its to bring dividends for the stockholders and give more bucks to the big wigs. If that's what capitalism brings, which is now bringing the USA to its knees, at least the middle class and lower, I'm all for it then. YEAH RIGHT....there is something way wrong with this if you're an American. If this keeps up with the shipping of our manufacturing overseas, we're going to be running to Mexico to make a decent living.

Somewhere up there was the question why the democrats haven't stomped Bush by now. There's only a handful of democrats that have the balls to say or try anything, Kucinich is one of them. The rest are as complicent in the mess as Bush himself. They're all on the same payolla scheme, especially the Pelosi woman. I've never seen such cowards in my life, or else they're all in the same bed.

Obama and lack of any credentials to be president. Probably a bit more than GW Bush had. The guy was a drunk, and basically a screw up, but he's backed by the big buck oil daddy. What can you say? And Cheney was the big shot in Haliburton..nuff said on that deal.

I'm marching to a different drummer. There hasn't been a democrat that I've supported in a long time, and there's no way I would vote for a republican.

To keep it straight..I'm a pacifist, a tree hugger, a firm believer in upholding the constitution...freedom of speech, press, and all that. Hey...keep an arsenal in your house, you never know when the proverbial s--t hits the fan, you'll need them.
help the needy, and the sick..hey, its the Christian thing to do, and I know a lot of you republicans are on that family values kick. Do not kill...that's a great Christian virtue..oh wait..its one of the commandments. I'm against abortion and believe there is a human going on from conception. maybe a 2 cell one, but there it is...and it grows pretty fast into something. But I'm not going to push it to make a law against abortion, because there are instances when it makes perfect sense to have one...and then there are those folks that bomb abortion clinics and try to kill the abortionist..that's pretty Christian to me...but then we had the crusades..that was a bloody mess. What I'm saying here is that if you're Christian, you should not be supporting the current war in Iraq, or any war, nor the revenge factor of going after terrorists, nor the death penalty, or any of that.

Educmacation...dump that no child left behind thing and start teaching the fundamentals. Make sure the kids can actually do the 3Rs before they graduate. Equal ed for all.

I'm not sure what I would call my politics..a little of this and a little of that. I'm fiscally conservative. Even the republicans are spending more than I would. But where they try to take the government out, the libertarian agenda, is in the worng place. They're gutting the social programs, and that's where the money should be going. NO money to fight wars, but money to build back up the infrastructure of this country, money to help those that are in poverty, with no health care. Help those with no jobs. Help those that need somewhere to live.

We're in an imperialistic stance. Our "national security" is being protected, but that involves securing oil, and the resources we need. We have troops all over the globe, more so than any other empire in the history of the Earth. Think about that a bit.

that's a start...still no proof of GW doing anything illegal in the above....
oh..here's a suggestion...
check this web site and read the articles of impeachment against President Bush...there's plenty of proof in there...

its only 65 pages.

By FJL (Langoman) on Saturday, July 26, 2008 - 02:24 am:

Well now, its about time this thread is being used again. Love it, keep it going. Just remember people, facts are not fiction, and fiction is not a fact..........

By Snowman (Snowman) on Saturday, July 26, 2008 - 07:44 am:

Now you can count the days, hours, minutes and seconds when our country is finally rid of a "big menace";


Have a great weekend!

By Deb S. (Usedtobeayooper) on Saturday, July 26, 2008 - 08:32 am:

As far as Democrats having the balls to stand up to Bush, we had one here in MN who was killed in an airplane crash right before election time. He was a huge thorn in Bush's side. Now I'm not saying that that plane didn't go down on its own, but it seemed pretty convenient to me. His name was Paul Wellstone and he was strange but a wonderful politician. GW did NOT like him.

I can't in good conscience vote for either of these yahoos either. It's just too bad we, as a people, can't come up with a 3rd person that we're all willing to vote for and write his or her name in. Now wouldn't that be a slap in the face to both of these guys?? I'm sure game if we could get a majority. Don't even know if I'll vote for the Presidential category this year. What's the use??? No matter who wins, we lose.

By Heikki (Heikki) on Saturday, July 26, 2008 - 08:36 am:

Dennis Kucinich.....now there's a wacked-out fireball of a guy who tries to manufacture 'facts' out of thin air. LOL! I'm afraid I can't give his laundry list serious consideration. He should know better with being on the Hill how money is appropriated, laws are made, authority granted, etc. But his distorted views get in the way of better his better judgment, the reason he can't get to first base as a serious presidential contender. Let's just keep him in the lunatic fringe category where he belongs and forget about him. He's even too much bother for Nancy Pelosi.

I've always had a problem understanding pacifists. While I don't know anybody who 'likes' war, nevertheless there are times it is necessary. Should one never strike back even if one's life is threatened? Or should one lie down as an old moose in the wilderness while wolves go about their business of disemboweling while you continue trying to escape with the few remaining feeble kicks of your legs? I could never see the point of true pacifism. I guess that makes me a warmonger.

Winston Churchill once said:

“If you will not fight for right when you can easily win without bloodshed; if you will not fight when your victory is sure and not too costly; you may come to the moment when you will have to fight with all the odds against you and only a precarious chance of survival. There may even be a worse case. You may have to fight when there is no hope of victory, because it is better to perish than to live as slaves.”

Some day our children will look back.....that's if all the history books haven't been revised by then....and see the wisdom in removing tyrannical threats while still manageable, unlike the cost incurred during WWII when the then 'peaceniks' thought pacifying a monster (for too long) would somehow insure 'peace in their time'.

Gonna be out of town for a couple days, so sayonara for now. Keep the thread alive. Have a good weekend all....and you, too, Snowman. I'm just counting the days until the "Evil One" is gone and the world will be at peace.....a socialist utopia where all are equal and all can share the misery that only the few enjoyed during these last horrific 8 years. Praise Allah! ;-)

By Eugene Zuverink (Zube) on Saturday, July 26, 2008 - 10:01 am:

Your right, Kucinich is wacked, I checked it out , what a bunch of nonsence. Some one started running Bush down and it just snowballed. Bush did this Bush did that, there was no WMDs. If he is that bad, and not one ounce of proof, why haven't the loud mouth Democrats pushed him out of office, if they don't have proof why don't they shut there mouths and stop ripping this country apart. If Bush is as bad as they say, what in the #### is he still doing in office.

By Eugene Zuverink (Zube) on Saturday, July 26, 2008 - 10:43 am:

Nancy Pelosi said yesterday,
Impeachment is off the table, I wonder why she would say that.

By Deb S. (Usedtobeayooper) on Saturday, July 26, 2008 - 01:39 pm:

Heikki, I'm with you. I would love to see Colin Powell run for President. At work we have discussed this at length, and I don't care if you were Republican or Democrat, there was not one person who wouldn't have voted for him. There are no black people where I work either, so it had nothing to do with race, but what a person stands for. He is head and shoulders above these 2 who are running. I do believe I will write his name in.

By David Soumis (Davesou) on Saturday, July 26, 2008 - 02:08 pm:

its very simple, Eugene. The reason the dems have not kicked Bush out is the fact they are as complicent in the entire thing as Bush is. They continually vote to abolish the Constitution, vote to uphold funding for the war, vote to move our manufacturng overseas, do nothing about anything that will help out those that have befallen hard times...and I don't mean the idiots that signed mortgage agreements that only a moron would sign.
They are bailing out the big buck companies though. They do approve oil supsidies for oil companies that are making billions of dollars in profits every quarter.

Nancy Pelosi is one of the most two faced smiling back stabbing politicians that ever walked the earth. There is no way she's making any waves and ending her sugar daddy money coming in...her power. She needs to be voted out as do three-fourths of thos now in the congress.

That whack job Kucinich is actually one of the few sane ones in there. At least he is a peacenik instead of a warmonger. Willing to try and help the downtrodden instead of screwing them even more.

But you know..the lower the classes fall, the more we will eventually have cheap labor. We're headed to the third world just like most of the rest. A lot of you guys are old enough where it won't affect you much, considering you're going to croak off pretty soon, along with me at any time..but your grandkids are going to have a great time making 50 cents a day and groveling for food scraps. Oh happy day.

Can't wish more for them except to hope they're all living in squallor and sewage pits, like the rest of the third world... just keep supporting these rich cats that are slowly turning the screws on everyone.

But maybe some of you are living pretty high on the hog so you don't need to worry about it...and you're feeding off us regular folks too...come on ..admit it already. No ownder you al support the neocons and the politicians giving everything to the big money global corporations.
check out the definition of fascism...we're headed in that direction.

Hey, maybe the big nuclear holocaust will occur so armaggedon will happen. now that wil take care of the whole thing. A lot of nutcases will be happy as h-ll then.

By Eugene Zuverink (Zube) on Saturday, July 26, 2008 - 03:08 pm:

But David S, who voted these useless Democrats into office in congress, the same ones who want this KID as our next President. Haven't they learned anything from a 9% congress, that makes Bush 32% look pretty good
There are many things I don't like that are going on,I don't like the wetbacks coming in,but who and how to stop it, oh I'm sorry thats Georges job.
Deb, I heard of people doing that, but isn't that a waste of time and vote, you know they can never win, I guess just to prove a point, Ya/

By David Soumis (Davesou) on Saturday, July 26, 2008 - 04:59 pm:

there is no doubt other Democrats voted in the useless ones...we were lied to, simple as that. They were elected to put an end to the war and overturn some of the decrees and bills Bush got put through to undermine our
Constitution. They did nothing.

I get mail from Nancy Pelosi to help the democratic party. most go in the trash, but I also write a note in a lot of them condemning the party for not standing up for what they were supposed to...and until I'm convinced they are going to do something, I will never vote for another one of them.

I've been an independent for well over 30 years, probably longer. I was brought up in a Democratic house, both my mom and dad, but I've had my own mind since in high school.

I'm sure a lot of you are just fine with the direction of the country right now, but I firmly believe we are on the wrong path.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with teaching morals in public school, but perhaps they not be associated with a particular religion. A person can have morals and not even believe in god. Its a good thing to teach right and wrong in public school. Its ok to teach about love and understanding. Its ok to teach about peace and forgiveness..these are not necessarily religious beliefs.

I think its a wrong direction to use other countries,their resources, their people, to further our riches and national security. Our policies, disguised as the spread of freedom and democracy is a guise for imperialism, no different than Hitler, the Romans, Greeks, or any other empire. Its a great excuse and seems like a noble cause, but look at reality. We're exploiting others for our gain.

The current administration is flaunting our military might. Sure, we're the most powerful country militarily in the world. ever. Is that a good thing when we're influencing other countries to kneel to us or be bombed to smithereens? to declare countries evil because they won't bow down to our pressure?

We have in our mind we are the greatest , most rightious country on Earth..in God we trust...may God bless us and all that. But why is our murder rate so high? Why do we have so many suicides? Why do we have so many depressed people? Why do blacks have a 50% drop out rate in school? We have one of the higher infant mortality rates of the developed countries. More homeless. More people without healthcare. one of the highest execution rates in the world. More people in prison. I think we need a new path.

we didn't sign the land mine treaty. Didn't sign the Kyoto accords for the environment. Don't abide by the Geneva Convention. Have stooped to torture and prisoner abuse. I think we need a new path.

We're spying on our own citizens..not just suspected terorists and those helping them, but all Americans. We're limiting freedom of speech and assembly. Our own neighbors are being told to report someone if they feel they are acting different. The government is watching what type of materials we are reading, what web sites we go to. People are being arrested and held without recourse or a fair and speedy trial.
I think we need a new path.

are the democrats or republicans going to give us a new path? No. We need to have a people's uprising. A new people's party. Vote out all the rich, money influenced representatives. Put the people back in power. Get rid of the corruption. Get rid of the neocons. Clean up everythng. I know we need a new path.

By Eugene Zuverink (Zube) on Saturday, July 26, 2008 - 09:34 pm:

I agree David S, very well thought out.
BUT, with politicians running our country, Democrate or Republican,I can not ever see changes.To start a new party, can you even think how many years that would take. As long as the politicians are well off what do they care. I beleive after six years in office they are well taken care of by your dollars. Maybe 5% are in it to help the country, the rest are for them selves. It sure is bad that money goes to other people other than our own, many seniors here are
having a rough time,but they don't care.If they would stop stealing from the SS fund there would be enough, but they have been doing that for years, they will never pay it back.

By David Soumis (Davesou) on Saturday, July 26, 2008 - 11:32 pm:

holy wonkers, Eugene..we agree ?
I understand with the new party. There have been a few attempts in the last 15 years or so to get independents elected, but its a very tough fight.
A couple of them, such as the greens, realized they need to start at the township level, but they haven't gotten very far yet. It will take a hundred years to get something going like that.

Perhaps the only way would be if the current parties screw stuff up so bad that we finally get fed up and just finally vote all of them out and put in someone. It could happen, but doubtful.

Social Security...there would be billions in there if they would quit pulling it out. Another helper would be to have social security pulled out on all pay, not just the 1st $95,000.

By David Soumis (Davesou) on Saturday, July 26, 2008 - 11:38 pm:

oh...there should also be a means test for SS payout. There is no reason for someone with millions to be receiving social security payments. keep it for those that need it.

My mother gets $700 per month. That's what she lives on. Why does someone raking in stock dividends, and even some people, such as McCain, who has a rich wife, and makes a few bucks in the senate, need social security payments?
Its just wrong.

By Eugene Zuverink (Zube) on Sunday, July 27, 2008 - 09:51 am:

I have to call you on this one David, Senators and Congressmen do not collect from SS because they do not pay into the fund, you remember years ago they voted in there own pension. When they retire they draw the same pay as they are drawing when they retire plus COL and all health benifits for themselves and there spouse, AND they never paid a dime into this fund.
Now if they were put into the SS program instead they would change SS real fast, the average SS retirie gets $1000.00 per mounth. Would you think something is wrong here.

By Eugene Zuverink (Zube) on Sunday, July 27, 2008 - 09:54 am:

I mean a $1000.00 a "month"

By David Soumis (Davesou) on Sunday, July 27, 2008 - 10:21 am:

well, heres an excerpt from The Huffington Post, that left wing, liberal, nutcase web pub:

KANSAS CITY, Mo. — Although Republican presidential candidate John McCain has called Social Security "a disgrace," he still cashes his own retirement check every month.

"I'm receiving the benefits, the system is broken and, unfortunately, my children and grandchildren, according to the trustees of the Social Security system, will not have the same benefits the present retirees have," McCain told reporters Thursday on his campaign bus.

McCain's 2007 tax return shows Social Security benefits of $23,157 for the year, an average of $1,929.75 a month. He said he started receiving the payments "whenever I was eligible."

I did some googling on this..its plastered all over the left side publicaitons...can't find a dribble on any right wing news. Where do I find some independent reporting on this?
well, it was actually reported by the AP.

By Eugene Zuverink (Zube) on Sunday, July 27, 2008 - 10:35 am:

I do not understand, if Senators do not pay into the fund, how did he collect from it, thats $1929.oo a month, thats a lot of SS

By Deb S. (Usedtobeayooper) on Sunday, July 27, 2008 - 10:41 am:

Davesou, I'm voting for you!!!!!

By David Soumis (Davesou) on Sunday, July 27, 2008 - 11:04 am:

I only need about 62 million more.

seriously, that is what needs to happen. Someone that can gather a lot of support, that is totally out of the normal political loop. and that has good ideas to get us back on track.
Only problem, you still would have the congress to deal with. So we only need about 500 or so truly independent, charismatic, true freedom loving, non-rich, regular guy supporters, and we will change the entire direction of this country.

Guess I'm partly socialistic in my thinking, but it comes from being brought up as a Christian, I think...you know, helping the poor and the needy. Loving instead of fighting, turn the other cheek, doing away with the eye for an eye mentallity like Jesus professed ... all that stuff. :)
that guy even helped the whore, the lepers, and all those shunned by his society.

This is why I cannot believe so many in power profess to being Christian, go to church on Sunday, all with the big show..hey, I'm going to church with my family...and yet they cut the social programs to the bones, and in my opinion, really don;t give a rats about thr regular guy at all. They're in it for the money and power...the big buck guys. They don't even have a clue for the most part how hard it is for most of us. And if they came from a poor background, they forget real fast where they came from..at least most of them...except for maybe John Edwards...and perhaps Obama, although he hasn't really shown me much of his caring for the poor so far.

By FRNash/PHX, AZ (Frnash) on Sunday, July 27, 2008 - 11:38 am:

By Eugene Zuverink (Zube):
"Senators and Congressmen do not collect from SS because they do not pay into the fund ... they never paid a dime into this fund."

Except perhaps for those few rare birds that had a real job either before or after their time in Congress, and were able to accumulate enough quarters to qualify for SS. (In which case their SS retirement check would be in addition to their congressional pensions!)

I would guess that McCain's qualification may relate to his years of military service (members of the military do pay into SS), but that's just a guess. Note also the large number of members of the US Congress with rather long military careers.

By FRNash/PHX, AZ (Frnash) on Sunday, July 27, 2008 - 11:47 am:

David Soumis (Davesou):
"Another [Social Security] helper would be to have social security pulled out on all pay, not just the 1st $95,000."

Now there's an idea that I could support! (I guess I can say that now that I'm collecting mine!)

Just consider the combined tax rate for both SS & Medicare that would be paid by "self employed" zillionairs!

That amount of cash flow just might keep both programs afloat!

By FRNash/PHX, AZ (Frnash) on Sunday, July 27, 2008 - 12:00 pm:

David Soumis (Davesou):
"Guess I'm partly socialistic in my thinking, but it comes from being brought up as a Christian, I think...you know, helping the poor and the needy."

That's fine, wonderful even, for individuals and other non-political groups, but I object strenuously to our elected politicians forcing the same on the populace as a governmental program! It comes close to forcing their religious beliefs upon us all!

By Heikki (Heikki) on Sunday, July 27, 2008 - 08:09 pm:

Wow! Youse guys (and gal) have certainly been burning up this thread! LOL. Too much to comment on just now, but will offer one correction: Congressional members coming on board since 1984 have been paying into Social Security. It was during the overhaul by the Reagan Administration to fix the broken Soc. Sec. Sys. Perhaps some Senators that were already in office before 1984 were able to remain in their original retirement program, but the freshmen were required to accept the new program. I know there have been e-mails flying around for ages regarding Congress not paying into SS, but that's all bull.

By Tom (Tom) on Sunday, July 27, 2008 - 08:46 pm:

Some states were able to opt out from the SS system for their employees. As long as they had a pension system in place. That is Illinois in one case. I
earned my retirement through the SURS and paid no SS for 30 years. Luckily had had my 40 quarters of SS paid in before I arrived. Some of my colleagues had never paid and thus have no SS to fall back on. It becomes a little important in those states, like Illinois, that don't fully fund those state retirements as required by state law. If the system goes broke they are really on a limb.
One thing I note as I read all the criticisms of current and past administrations is an underlying dependency of gov't to solve your problems. Not a great deal of self reliance being exhibited. It seems to be a matter of who does the "goring" of the taxpayer-----dems or repubs. It is ok if you are a dem in some cases and in others if you are a repub.
There is a maximum benefit in SS no matter what your income. I think it must be somewhere near 24,000 per year. Not much more if any.

By Heikki (Heikki) on Sunday, July 27, 2008 - 10:02 pm:

Deb S.,
Yeah, Colin Powell is respected by many, but he does not aspire for the presidency because, if memory serves, his beloved wife suffers from depression and feels she couldn't stand up to the pressure of being First Lady. If you haven't read his bio, "My American Journey", do so if you'd like to learn more about this man of integrity. Here's a tidbit from his book: Colin Powell, a retired general and former Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff has shared a hobby with a retired Army MSgt for some years. They rebuild Volvos in Colin's backyard garage. At the time of the book's writing, I believe they had rebuilt 18 cars. Now that's my kind of guy! He isn't schmoozing on the cocktail circuits or spending time in Martha's Vineyard, or acquiring a great number of homes, nor did he dump his wife for another with megabucks. He is true to family, friends, and country. These kind of people are extremely rare at that level of achievement. I don't think what we have running now, or ran the past several election cycles, can hold a candle to him with respect to integrity and esteem. But, it wouldn't pay to waste a vote writing him in. Just have to swallow hard and vote for the lesser of two 'evils', whichever you think it may be.

By Deb S. (Usedtobeayooper) on Sunday, July 27, 2008 - 10:12 pm:

Yup, I know, Heikki. That guy is one of the best men we've had around the White House in quite some time. I don't care if you're Republican or Democrat, there's no way you can dislike him. And I did know it was because of his wife's problems that he doesn't want to hold that office. It's a shame, isn't it?

By David Soumis (Davesou) on Monday, July 28, 2008 - 07:28 am:

its a shame that he won't run, but also speaks to his humanity that he doesn't ditch his wife for his political and power ambitions.

He's exactly the kind ogf guy needed, although he did the military correct thing and followed his leader into the war. Of course, going into a war they want everyone on the badwagon, otherwise dissent at that time doesn't help the cause.

Its one of the main reasons I dislike McCain so much. He was speaking an entirely different message when runnning against Bush, then bent over like a limp puppy dog after Bush humiliated him. The guy changed pretty much everything he once stood for to coincide with the administration, and he hasn't changed since. Its like Bush is holding something over him.

By Deb S. (Usedtobeayooper) on Monday, July 28, 2008 - 07:46 am:

That's why I don't like McCain too, David. I liked him quite a lot actually, when he was running against Bush because I thought he was everything that Bush wasn't. Then he turned into his lapdog. If he can change everything he stands for just like that, what will he do if elected as President?

Back to the original question, who the heck is there to vote for?????

By Heikki (Heikki) on Monday, July 28, 2008 - 08:36 am:

Once the decision is made to go to war, it is the correct thing as a country to pull together and see it through, not just the 'military' correct thing. I don't hold that behavior against McCain. Dissension is nothing new. In a real knock down and drag out war where everybody feels the threat to survival, dissenters are, for the most part, persona non grata, and rightly so. That's the drawback to taking military action on a limited basis in order to contain brushfires that could easily spread. Folks back home are still eatin' good, safe in their beds at night, no shortages to speak of, and nothing to worry about but what they're going to do over the weekend. The ones that really feel it are military families. In some ways I think the draft should have never ended, but in other ways it was wise. Whiners and complainers make for poor soldiers. As my late mother used to say, "Some people would complain about their own mother's milk."

By David Hiltunen (Davidcorrytontn) on Monday, July 28, 2008 - 11:10 am:

I am just a wondering, Who would cast a vote for Oliver North?

By Tom (Tom) on Monday, July 28, 2008 - 12:25 pm:

Is Colin Powell a born-in-the-USA citizen? OR from Puerto Rico or such? If so he can't run for president.

By Heikki (Heikki) on Monday, July 28, 2008 - 02:21 pm:

Colin Powell was born in New York. His parents were from Jamaica.

By A. David Archibald (Yooperatheart61) on Monday, July 28, 2008 - 02:27 pm:



By Heikki (Heikki) on Monday, July 28, 2008 - 05:09 pm:

If McCain was the only one talking a different story that may be a valid point. If one is looking for a person in DC who is consistent as the day is long, you'll not be looking at a survivor within the system. Politics and absolute truth are polar opposites. Always has and always will......and not always for deceptive reasons. I remember a tidbit in the news about GW sending a letter/memo to HRC (when a front runner) cautioning her about taking a firm stance on Iraq should she later be elected and have to deal with the situation in a different manner. What is said and how they say it at times has good reason behind it and not simply idle political rhetoric. That's the difference between being a mouthy senator or the person who sits behind the desk where the buck stops. Obama has been 'adjusting' his stance on several issues as well. Probably received the same memo HRC did.

By David Soumis (Davesou) on Monday, July 28, 2008 - 05:30 pm:

one of the problems in discussing politics and policy, is the fact the regular folks like us are not privy to all that is going on. I imagine there are plenty of situations that would change your politics pretty fast, and the general population will never be aware of them, at least until the statute of limitations runs out after 30 years or whatever it is, and by then, most of us don't care anymore, or wouldn't even think about it.

The one thing that is up front with the current administration, however, is the fact they are doing things that are aginst the Contstitution, and against most of the principles this country has stood for and helped protect over many years.

I think what drives it is greed by the big multi-national corporations, and unfortunately, our leadership is buddied up right with them, and are actually, as in Cheney's case, one of them. Of course the Bush family are into the oil business.

This sort of stuff happens all the way down the chain even in small companies, and even within departments of companies. Everyone is kissing up to everyone else, and trying to wrestle the power so they are getting the bennies and the glory. \
Maybe it's human nature or something..the alpha male.

By Heikki (Heikki) on Monday, July 28, 2008 - 09:19 pm:

Agree. There are situations we (da folks) aren't aware of that would make us view certain decisions made at the top in different light if we knew. I had an aquaintance (now deceased) that worked for Defense Intel. He told me I wouldn't believe what was going on around the world. Of course, he was sworn to secrecy and couldn't divulge any details. But yes, that information can be abused as well as used. It's the nature of the beast.....the human beast.

By Russell E. Emmons (Russemmons) on Tuesday, July 29, 2008 - 02:29 am:

Many people are watching this forum biting their tongues as I have too. Some are at a loss as to how to deal with the subject and the extremes of some opinions here. Some like myself realize that you are at a risk of ruining friendships and making bad feelings whenever politics and religion are discussed on these type medias or forums. I learned this only too well in years of amateur/CB radio. I wonder if my friend Dave H. has forgotten this? We are all adults, citizens, taxpayers and the subject is important especially at this time in history and should be able to be discussed objectively, realistically and with consideration. Unfortunately it just doesn't always work out that way given the intensity of the subject(s) and the emotions of many people involved.

I would think it quite obvious and logical that MOST Congressional people had some sort of jobs from teenagers on til being elected and many had/have their own businesses also where with that SS FICA is required to be paid each years 1040 on profits (if any).
$1000 per month SS is average? I think that is about right but my check is much lower. This due to my being in a small business for many years running at a loss or very low net profits which was because of being too honest, poor health, having cheating thieving employees unbeknownest to me, "big oil" corporations jerking its franchised dealers like myself around and leaving us high and dry while they left the state! Add to this cheap frugal customers in too many cases using the small businessman while spending their big bucks or gravy money to cut throat mass marketers like Kmart and others at the time who drove the small businesses of all kinds to the brink of bankruptcy or beyond. ( I will not spend a dime at WalMart for this reason nor do I have any sympathy for "poor" KMarts financial problems!)
Whining-- no, this actually happened to many of us! Bitter---yes, very much so!---SO-- this once very honest (still am!) good Christian conservative Republican boy became disillusioned and then with this present administration was the last straw. I saw the the light and no more! I still believe in the original doctrine of Republicanism, ie; small business. farmers, family values; and I am still pro life, and against same sex marriages, pro gun ownership, for property rights. However I can no longer stomach the corporate greed, corruption, the PROVEN lies, the disregard for the environment, wildlife, the poor, sick, and misfortunate among us through no fault of their own!

Do I understand what Archibald is talking about? You betcha and then some! I understand what you all have to say and agree with some of it, but I agree most with D. Archibald; David Soumis, Snowman, Deb and the like! So be it!
I too have mixed feelings about Obama. I don't like McCains policys at all but I will say he is, despite his temper and lack of computer savy, a much more likeable man then GWB as a person ever was irregardless of politics! I can relate some with McCain as he is my age and is taking much teasing and "abuse" because of his age as I do also now!

I would suggest if any have the time to rent the 4 star 1941 (just before WW2 started!) Movie called "Meet John Doe" Gary Cooper, Barbara Stanwyck, Edward Arnold, James Gleason, Walter Brennan. A poignant social commentary of treachery and lurking "New Order" fascist tendencies in America. A naive tramp beautifully portrayed by Cooper, becomes the unwitting tool of corrupt politician Arnold. Cooper threatens public suicide as a protest against world conditions and thousands of good citizens try to prevent his death by changing things but are almost thwarted by the big powerful corrupt political machine. Truth prevails in the end!
The message is we must love our neighbors if we are to find happiness! This film throbs with Frank Capras love of humanity, don't miss it! An excellent comparison to todays times!

By David Soumis (Davesou) on Tuesday, July 29, 2008 - 07:25 am:

you know Russell, and all...
I could easily be a Republican of the old type.
These new ones are way too far right and totally against the grain of what I consider being an American is.
Perhaps Obama is much more a Republican of old. I think McCain would be a great pres if he hadn't adapted the philosophies of Bush Co.

look at the budget of Bush...400+ billion dollar deficit. Doesn't sound bery conservative to me. Worst than the Democratic pres who had a $128 billion surplus.

By Heikki (Heikki) on Tuesday, July 29, 2008 - 09:59 am:

C'mon guys, let's be honest. Who controls the budget? Did you ever consider why there was a surplus in the treasury?? Remember 1994? Who controlled the budget after that year? Some folks use the phrase "let's get real". Okay, let's get real. Most all of us have had hard times (me included), and that included times when the Democrats ruled supreme in Congress. At one time my whole family was Democrat, the FDR-type Democrat. Today, 90% are mostly conservative but not necessarily Republican....like myself. Why is that? Because at one time the Democratic party had conservative Democrats in the majority, and the GOP was truly in the pockets of big business. Those days are over. The Democratic party has been taken over by the radical left, and the GOP, while still pro-business, have taken on what used to be conservative Democrats. Folks like myself consider the GOP to be the lesser of two evils in today's world. Remember who controls the reins of the federal budget.
BTW, Obama is NOT like Republicans of old. Study his writings. You'll see what I mean.

By Tom (Tom) on Tuesday, July 29, 2008 - 11:22 am:

Russ You know Wal-Marts roots are small town. Sam Walton was not born with a silver spoon in his mouth as the Kennedy clan, or, for that matter the Bush group were.
What Sam Walton had that other small business men didn't have was a good idea. Large scale buying and then lower selling prices. He was very willing to compete and did so. It took a good number of years before Wal-Mart made a national presence.
I never feel sorry for businesses that fail. That is the risk of that kind of endeavor. Some have the smarts to make it over the long run and others don't.
For all the accusations against Bush, I am wondering why he hasn't been impeached. There are laws, you know. The dems aren't seriously interested in getting Bush because then they are vulnerable to the same charges when they are in.
There was a comment a few days ago about the lack of a budget deficit in the early 1990s. The good times of the late 1980s and all through the 1990s were due to the Reagan administration and Congress working together. Clinton inherited the good times. The time lag for a change in the economy from bad to good to bad is multiple years.
Fiscal policy is slow to work. The average time for any change is over 2 years. It takes Congress a long time to decide what to do and then implement a new policy. To top it off, the new policy must be spent on something that the taxpayer currently isn't spending on if you want to spur the economy into a growth mode.

By Michael Du Long (Mikie) on Tuesday, July 29, 2008 - 01:03 pm:

Like Russ I try to buy from the local business people. Have only been in Walmart once. Don't normally go to Kmart, but do use the big stores like Sears and Macys. I am a consertative independent, if there is such a catagory. I don't like either of the canidates. I admire John McCains service to the USA. Being part Irish I also like the fact that his wife owns a beer establisment. You have to admire his choice in women.

By FRNash/PHX, AZ (Frnash) on Tuesday, July 29, 2008 - 02:17 pm:

Michael Du Long (Mikie):
"Don't normally go to Kmart, but do use the big stores like Sears and Macys."

As for Sears, its "not your father's Oldsmobile Sears," nowadays, Sears is Kmart! From Wikipedia:Sears Merger with Kmart:


On November 17, 2004, Kmart announced its intentions to purchase Sears. As a part of the merger, the Kmart Holdings Corporation would change its name to Sears Holdings Corporation. The new corporation announced that it would continue to operate stores under both the Sears and Kmart brands.

Tom (Tom) on Tuesday, July 29, 2008 - 03:43 pm:

Perhaps the reasons MIkie states about McCain might be the best reasons to vote for him! Good looking independent wife and lots of beer. Seems to me some years ago beer was a necessary item in my liquid diet. Not any more.
I am wondering which management is controlling the Sears/KMart business? Sears seems to be holding it's own, but, KMart? Several here in GB but never seems to be much traffic in their parking lots.
I have friends who won't shop Wal-Mart because of the customers. They don't seem to want to mix with the 'unwashed."

By Eugene Zuverink (Zube) on Tuesday, July 29, 2008 - 04:06 pm:

I was just reading some news stories.
Ex Newark Mayor gets 27 months for corruption.
Alaska Senator 84 year old Ted Stevens indicted on seven counts.
Is there ANY honest politician out there?
Every last one of them is in it for themselvs.
There is not one you can trust or beleive.

By Tom (Tom) on Tuesday, July 29, 2008 - 04:17 pm:

Self-interest is the driving force of man. That comes before helping others. Same goes with politicians.

By Snowman (Snowman) on Tuesday, July 29, 2008 - 04:59 pm:

My tongue is sooooo sore. What is in store?

By Heikki (Heikki) on Tuesday, July 29, 2008 - 05:06 pm:

Mikie is right on! Here's an e-mail I received from my 'wise guy' bro-in-law in Lisburn, Ireland:

From Ireland to all our brethren in the States...a point to ponder despite your political affiliation:

We in Ireland can't understand why you people are even bothering to hold an election in the United States!

On one side, you had a pants-wearing female lawyer, married to another lawyer who can't seem to keep his pants on, who just lost a long and heated primary against a lawyer who goes to the wrong church, who is married to yet another lawyer, who doesn't even like the country her husband wants to run!

Now, on the other side, you have a nice old war hero whose name starts with the appropriate 'Mc', married to a good looking younger woman who owns a beer distributorship.

What on earth are ye lads thinkin' over in the colonies?!!

(Yeah, I know it belongs on the joke page, but it's so appropo for this thread, too. Besides, this thread could use a little lightening up, eh?)

By A. David Archibald (Yooperatheart61) on Wednesday, August 6, 2008 - 08:30 pm:

Some will find this article to pretty much say it all as I do and some will be exactly like it says in the article!

By Eddie Allen (Glocktologist21) on Thursday, August 7, 2008 - 12:34 pm:

Hogwash...Nonsense...Whatever you want to call it...Far left radicalism...Stupidity...All in the same sentence...All pretty much means the same thing....I agree that anyone who thinks they are living in a safe secure nation from terrorism solely for what the Bush administration has done is pretty naive but I can't think about how unfortunate we'd be had Al Gore been in office at the time when 9-11 took place...His administration would have done exactly what they had done about rising terrorist threats during the Clinton Administration ....NOTHING!...If terrorist threat home and abroad is all a big hoax, then someone please explain that to the ones permanently scarred by the tragedy on 9/11/01. Explain that to those survivors and people who lost family,loved ones, and friends...and I suppose the train bombings in London and Madrid, the foiled onboard bottle bomb plot on the U.S. bound airliners, Bali, U.S.S. Cole, and first World Trade Center bombing were all a big HOAX as well...Shame on any idiot that would believe that!

By FJL (Langoman) on Thursday, August 7, 2008 - 12:44 pm:

Click and read the "comments" at the end of the above article. Tells all about that article and the people associated with it and those that believe it............

By Eugene Zuverink (Zube) on Saturday, August 9, 2008 - 12:03 pm:

you said it all Eddie.

By Gustaf O. Linja (Gusso) on Monday, August 11, 2008 - 09:31 am:

COWS: Is it just me; or do others find it amazing that during the mad cow scare our government was able to track down a single cow born in Canada 3 years before right down to a stall where she slept in Washington and located her calves to their stalls; Yet are unable to track down over 11 million illegal aliens wandering around our country.Perhaps we could give each one a cow.
THE CONSTITUTION: There is much talk about drafting a constitution for Iraq. Why not give them ours? It was written by some really smart people and we don't use it that much anymore.
THE TEN COMMANDMENTS: I suspect that the real reason that they can't be posted is: One can not post: "Thou shalt not steal", "Thou shalt not commit adultery","Thou shalt not lie" In a building full of Lawyers, Judges and Politicians because it creates a hostile work environment, not to mention a conflict of interest.

By Russell E. Emmons (Russemmons) on Tuesday, September 2, 2008 - 05:27 pm:

Born Feb. 11, 1964 (Aquarian). Certainly a very attractive woman! A 'Hottie'! Beauty contest winner. Fiesty & tough. A Hockey/Soccer/PTA Mom.
Has a college minor in journalism and worked for awhile as a journalist. Also worked in her husbands familys commercial fishing business. Her husband is also an oil drilling man. She just had a baby in April, unfortunately it is a Downs Syndrome child. Her 17 year old daughter is 5 months pregnant, unmarried as everyone probably has heard by now. She is fiercely pro-life/anti-abortion even in cases of rape or incest. She served as mayor for awhile of a small 9000 population Alaskan town. She is an avid hunter and fisherwoman and believes the preservation of Polar Bears is unimportant if it hinders oil drilling. She allows and even supports hunting and killing of wolves, bears etc. from an airplane! She supported extremist Pat Buchanan in the 2000 elections. Her husband and her are under investigation for trying to coerce, pressure and influence the firing of her ex brother-in-law from his job as an Alaskan State Trooper.

John McCain had only met her once at a meeting, and called her once before last week informing her he was considering her and then once again to tell her she was chosen. Surely he chose her to pick up some disgruntled Hillary supporters. However she is NO Hillary! She is quoted as saying she has not thought much about the war in Iraq! Also McCain hoped she will appeal to working class folks, and of course the right wing Evangelical block. (If Republicans had to rely only on the votes of CEOs, high ranking exceutives, professionals, celebritys, and the very wealthy they would NEVER win ANY election!)
So consider too that this woman would be just a heartbeat from being the President.
If and when she debates Biden you know he could cut her to pieces politically. But would he? She is just a cute sweet innocent woman after all!

Looks like after all then Alaska is truly the very farthest north state of the southern states below the Mason-Dixon line!!

BTW: Obama has more legislature time/experience then Reagan or Kennedy had!

By David Soumis (Davesou) on Tuesday, September 2, 2008 - 05:35 pm:

I was watching a video of her on TV last night where she was with a bunch of military people..probably National Guard. She was flashing those batty eyelashes a whole lot...and chewing gum as well. She appears to know how to get to a man. :) she does have nice looking eyes though :)

She is so far away from anyting I believe, its unbelievable. I'm pretty much a treehugger...gasp!

By Michael Du Long (Mikie) on Wednesday, September 3, 2008 - 10:28 am:

Russ, what makes you think that Obama has more legislative time then Kennedy had? Just curious.

By Eddie Allen (Glocktologist21) on Wednesday, September 3, 2008 - 12:27 pm:

Not true about the polar bear statement...She never said that the polar bears were unimportant compared to oil drilling. She stated that the enviromental eco- global warming wackos ( I added the name ) were incorrect in their count of polar bears and in areas where the bears are fewer in numbers , they are in fact stable in numbers and then some in other areas. She stated the impact of drilling for oil on the bears and other wildlife would be minimal if at all. Which is what the hype has been about lately...all while you wait for our fabulous 9% approval rated do-nothing Demmie Commie Congress and Senate to come up with alternative forms of energy which is fine but offers no short term solution to the crisis, the fact is, is that we keep on buying oil from countries that hate us but if you are OK with that, your priorities are strange to me.
You're right...Sarah is no Hillary...and thank God for that...she's well above her level...There's too many lawyers on the Demoncrat side running for offices. As if they want to take control at all costs so they can sue the pants off of everyone else who don't follow their agenda. All Washington needs is a bunch of high profile attorneys to reap fear over average people and people who do business here in the U.S.
I'll say it again...B.O. has zero foreign policy experience as does Palin...and is nil on much of anything else. Heck, the guy has never ever even had a salary paying job in his entire life that he can lay claim to. What a leak to society.
At least Palin has taken the time to visit troops and not just walked past them as Obama did when he went on his so called "historic" trip over to the Middle East earlier this Summer. He did it all as a big political stunt rather than care genuinely about the situation. He didn't shake a hand nor did he tell anyone soldier they were doing a good job because he is part of the scumball politicians that wanted to see the troops be starved out by cutting funding while they're still in the field. The ones who have been totally against everything in terms of strategizing a plan in Iraq to finish that mess who instead would rather lose and walk away. The same "ones" that like to think terrorism is a big HOAX!
This joker B.O. has no other legislative experience other than sitting in on issues on Capitol Hill and voting "Present"...Think I'm kidding? Go look at his rather long voting record as a Senator at Votesmart.org. ( and I say "long" with a big hint of sarcasm )
Stop drinking the Jim Jones kool-aid!...Your poisoning yourself!...Stop being part of the "We the Sheeple" bunch.

By David Soumis (Davesou) on Monday, September 22, 2008 - 05:34 pm:

I'm surprised no one is talking about the financial collapse and the bailout of these crooks and scammers by all of our hard earned tax dollars.
The executives of these firms are raking in millions and we're bailing them out.

Sure...if we don't what happens? total collapse?
Its wonderful how deregulation works, isn't it?

I have a better solution. The government, if they want to use our money to pay someone off, could pay off everyone's mortgage under $250,000. That would give the money to the mortgage companies..helps them out. Also helps the economy becasue we will all have a ton of money to spend because we won't have a mortgage to deal with. Great idea, yes?
No worse than bailing out something that was left to get that way in the first place. Someone should have stopped this bs a long time ago.

By Deb S. (Usedtobeayooper) on Tuesday, September 23, 2008 - 08:25 am:

I like your solution. If they want to pay off my mortgage, I'd sure start spending more and getting the money moving out there. Bailing these companies out with OUR money is for the birds. It's okay for the rich, but those of us who don't have any money should not have to pay, especially if we have nothing invested. And I'd personally rather lose everything and see it crash and start over than to take the hard working American's money to bail them out. This is to the point of being ridiculous!

By Theresa R. Brunk (Trb0013) on Tuesday, September 23, 2008 - 11:17 am:

'The executives of these firms are raking in millions and we're bailing them out.'

I think a better word would be 'raping in millions"

I wish someone would look to the CEO and CFO and make them return all Bonuses for the past 5 years. Some executives raped the companies for upwards of 40 million in one fiscal year. They should make them accountable first...

By Tom (Tom) on Tuesday, September 23, 2008 - 04:43 pm:

Even if you had the gov't pay off those mortgages under $250,000 guess who would receive the money? The same mortage companies with the same CEOs and CFOs. So that is wouldn't help.
The comments lately, regarding the bailout, are somewhat confusing. No one can say just how severe the blow would be to the economy if they were allowed to fail. AIG owns/controls many insurance companies but they are regulated in the varous states and somewhat by the fereral gov't The banking end of AIG is the culprit. Note that many, if not most, of the small community banks do not sell their mortgages to the large firms like AIG. They don't make those risky loands.
So perhaps the big boys should be allowed to fail!! We need more information.

By Matt Karhu (Matt_k) on Wednesday, September 24, 2008 - 08:40 am:

A review of the prices of homes, new and old, reveals that highly inflated prices appear to have contributed to the financial collapse to some degree.

Tom has a good point about banks; in anticipation of the worsening of large bank and financial institution financial problems, I moved most of my cash acccounts to a small, local bank that does not sell their mortgages, most of which are on large, highly productive large farms and stable family businesses, and plats of moderately priced custom-built homes. Their lower interest rates on CD's and savings accounts are acceptable during this troublesome period.

By Eugene Zuverink (Zube) on Friday, September 26, 2008 - 10:49 am:

Maybe Uncle Sam can try this.
I'm against the 85,000,000,000.00 bail out of AIG
Instead, I,m in favor of giving 85 billion to America in a dividend.
To make the math simple, lets assume there are 200,000,000 bonifid citizens 18+.
So divide 200 million adults 18+ into 85 billion that equals $425,000.00. So lets give $425,000.00 to every person 18+ as a dividend.
Of course it would not be tax free, lets say 30% tax rate that would be $127,500.00 in taxes, that would send $25,500,000,000, right back to Uncle Sam., but it means that every adult 18+ has $297,500,00 in there pocket.
As for AIG liquidate it, sell off it parts, sell off the real estate.
Sure it't a crazy idea that will never happen, but can you imagine the coast to coast block party? So the plan would only cost 59.5 billion because 25.5 billion is returned in taxes

By Eugene Zuverink (Zube) on Friday, September 26, 2008 - 10:56 am:

Maybe the math is wrong, but it sounds good, I picked it up on the internet

By Marianne Y (Marianne) on Friday, September 26, 2008 - 02:20 pm:

When it sounds too good to be true, it normally is. Zube, methinks you slipped the decimal point a few places. I come up with $425 person, not the hundreds of thousands of dollars that someone came up with. Sorry.

By David Soumis (Davesou) on Friday, September 26, 2008 - 08:04 pm:

yep ... $425 .. then you have to subtract the taxes...
so you're basically left with a tank of gas, maybe 2 bags of groceries, and a case of Bud.
Kind of like that tax rebate some of us got.

I had another similar idea for us regular folks.
Uncle Sam bails all of us with a mortgage $250,000 or less. I figure if your mortgage is more than that, you're either kinda dumb and fell into one of those mortgage swindles that are causing all the problems, or you have enough money to afford it yourself.

So anyway, our mortgages are paid off. We then have a lot of free cash per month to turn back into the economy. So basically the mortgage companies get a huge influx of ready cash, and we consumers have a ton to spend around. Sounds like a win win to me :)

By Deb S. (Usedtobeayooper) on Saturday, September 27, 2008 - 08:44 am:

Like I said before, I like it David. Did you guys watch the debate??? I really would like to see a 3rd viable candidate out there. These guys wouldn't even look at each other. It's time to get out of high school.

By Heikki (Heikki) on Saturday, September 27, 2008 - 10:09 am:

How about John Edwards? Oops, I forgot. He isn't 'viable' for the time being. ;-) I thought the candidates were very agreeable for the most part. NObama said, "John is right" at least 4 or 5 times last night. The Old Warrior pinned NObama's ears against the wall far more often than the DNC would like. When talking of Russia and the former USSR satellite nations, NObama realized he was in over his head....."Ah....ah...um....ah....I agree with John McCain." LOL!!! Other than that, it was pretty much tit-for-tat, each expounding on their position as revised by current events and previous gaffes. The debate won't change many minds, but John McCain laid to rest the age question, without question.

By Tom (Tom) on Saturday, September 27, 2008 - 10:10 am:

So, David, where does the Federal Gov't get the money to pay off all our mortgages? Increase income taxes, sell more bonds to overseas countries?
All the while the CEO's of the companies prepare their golden parachute.

By David Soumis (Davesou) on Saturday, September 27, 2008 - 10:15 am:

From the same money tree they're getting the billions to bail out AIG, Fannie and Freddie,and the rest, pay for the wars, subsidize the oil companies.
It must be a real big one. Maybe down on the Bush ranch in Texas?
Everything is big down there.

By David Soumis (Davesou) on Saturday, September 27, 2008 - 10:17 am:

oh wait !!!
what's that sucking sound I hear?

oh...no problem, its just all our money for the next 50 years being sucked up into the coffers of the rich and famous. Not to worry. It will trickle back down with the beans and rice.

By David Soumis (Davesou) on Wednesday, October 1, 2008 - 05:11 pm:

Whose Congress is this?

Anyone who still thinks that either of the two major parties represent the interest of Main Street rather than Wall Street should take a look at how much money the members of the US House of Representatives who voted for the "No Tycoon Left Behind" bailout bill have raked in from the same financial sectors responsible for the whole mess in the first place.

According to The Center for Responsive Politics, lawmakers who voted in favor of the bailout bill have received on average 51% more in campaign contributions from sources in the finance, insurance and real estate industries (FIRE industries) over their congressional careers than those who opposed the emergency legislation.

In this election cycle, the 140 House Democrats who voted for the bailout bill collected 78% more from the FIRE industries than the Democrats who opposed it. The data shows that, over their careers, they collected 88% more. While the gap is smaller on the Republican side, those who voted yes on the bailout bill got an average of 23% more in contributions from the FIRE industries in this election cycle than House Republicans who voted against it. In the long run, they got 53% more.

When it comes to raking in cash, party leadership fares even better. House Financial Services Committee Chair Barney Frank (D-MA) received nearly $800,000 this election cycle from sources in the FIRE industries. Ranking Republican committee member Spencer Bachus (AL) received $822,000 from the FIRE industries this election cycle and $3.7 million since 1989.

Unlike the two corporate parties now running Congress, Green Party candidates accept no corporate contributions. When in office, we will not be owned and bossed by Wall Street fat-cats. Green Officeholders are free to vote for what's best for us, the American people, instead of the Wall Street insiders who now run the show.

But to make your voice heard, we need your support. If your Congressperson voted against the bailout bill, thank them. If they voted for it, tell them how you really feel. Support Cynthia McKinney/Rosa Clemente and other Green Party candidates on the ballot in November; and donate to our future today.

*Please forward this message*

By Gary Hookway (Ghookway) on Saturday, October 4, 2008 - 07:46 am:

I was told at newsvine.com that because I don't support 0bama that I cling to my religion and guns, and that I am a racist bigot. And all this time I thought I was practicing my constitutionally given rights, imagine that.

By Beverly, San Jose (Beverly) on Monday, October 6, 2008 - 08:31 pm:

I am not saying how you should vote, but not long ago I posted something on the Keating 5 Affair on Pasty and was poo pooed on it. It seems what I posted in August is coming back to life again as it's been on the news for the past few days..
As for the 700 billion dollar bailout of Wall Street: now that Bush has used his influence again in frightening the American people with his words of distress on how we as a Country are about to collapse if Congress doesn't Bail out Wall Street, or with that look on his face as if he is sucking a lemon, that makes me want to scream, and again the Senate and House passes this bill . . . the Only people that benefit from this Bill is Bush and all his Cronies. It's a last ditch effort to drain the U.S. Treasury of all the money before he leaves office and to make sure his friends are compensated. The next thing he will start on is the gold at Fort Knox. Paulson alone got over One billion dollars out of the deal. Mind you, these are strictly my own opinions, and I'm really •••••• off about our elected officials in government right now. None of them have the balls to do anything and need to be voted out. They can't impeach Bush or Cheney for War Crimes because they would have to impeach themselves for covering it up as coconspiriters. They are all to blame!!!???!!! I've had my say, got that off my chest, I feel good now. Have a nice day.

By Deb S. (Usedtobeayooper) on Tuesday, October 7, 2008 - 08:12 am:

I think a lot of us are with you on the Wall Street thing, Bev. I said to just let it crash. Wouldn't have hurt me none, but this will come out of my taxes, I'm sure. Obama says we'll eventually get it back. Yup, and pigs fly too.

By Tom (Tom) on Tuesday, October 7, 2008 - 10:42 am:

It has me worried as my pension fund is invested in various stocks that probably include some of those banks that have failed. I dread getting my next monthly newsletter from SURS.
For those who wish to blame everything that has happened these past few years, remember that the pressure from Congress and Whitehouse began in the 1990s to give low income (read risky) borrowers loans. Too many defaults caused much of this potential collapse in the US markets.

By FJL (Langoman) on Wednesday, October 8, 2008 - 05:15 pm:

"Letting the market crash" seems to be the cry of those that have nothing, so have nothing to lose. The folks that have worked all their life and are retired with some savings im sure feel differently.......

By Russell E. Emmons (Russemmons) on Saturday, October 11, 2008 - 01:47 am:

FJL: So then folks that have little or nothing haven't worked all their life ? ?

By David Hiltunen (Davidcorrytontn) on Saturday, October 11, 2008 - 10:34 am:

Had a bad day in the Market yesterday. Couldn't find a chicken.

The Democrats made it easy for folks, mostly illegal's who sneaked in from our Southern Border to get into a house worth $300,000 when they could only afford a $100,000 or less. This can be traced back to Jimmy Carter, Clinton, and the very lovable Barney Frank, and I could go on and on all Democrats! Remember when it was easy to get a loan, didn't even need to show your Social Security Card, because they didn't have one?

By FJL (Langoman) on Sunday, October 12, 2008 - 09:22 am:

As one loan company officer said a couple years back, anybody that can "fog a mirror" gets a loan.......

By Gustaf O. Linja (Gusso) on Sunday, October 12, 2008 - 10:01 am:

"FINNS IN AMERICA" Did you know: During the period of the Revolutionary War, one out of eighteen Blue blood and common folk had Finnish blood flowing in their veins.
What is commonly called Lincoln log style cabin was not seen on the American continent until the arrival of Finns in the Delaware Vally settlement.
In 1781 John Hanson (the great grandson of Johan Hanson from Finland) was elected President under "The Articles of the Confederation" This was at the first meeting of new United States Government. Eight years later in 1789 George Washington was elected under the new revised Constitution.
The Last signer of the "Declaration of Independence" John Morton was the Great Grand son of Martin Marttinen born in Rautalampi Finland. In 1640 Peter Rambo was the first freeman settler from Finland to come to the New Sweden settlement.

By FJL (Langoman) on Sunday, October 12, 2008 - 10:51 am:

Mr.R.E. Emmons: I certainly didn't mean to offend you by implying that people that have nothing didn't work for it. I did say "SOME savings" which equates to your "little or none". I apologize to you sir......FJL

By Heikki (Heikki) on Sunday, October 12, 2008 - 08:53 pm:

If Barack Obama were to apply for a job with the FBI or with the Secret Service, he would be automatically disqualified because of his past association with William Ayers, a known terrorist.

If he is elected President he would not be qualified to be his own bodyguard!

By David Hiltunen (Davidcorrytontn) on Sunday, October 12, 2008 - 09:18 pm:

Michelle LaVaughn Robinson Obama (born January 17, 1964) is an American lawyer and the wife of Illinois Senator Barack Obama. I think she is the one with all the terrorist friends, so Barack is guilty by association. They became his friends too thru her. Jeremiah Alvesta Wright, Jr. (born September 22, 1941) is the former Pastor Emeritus of the Trinity United Church of Christ (TUCC), a megachurch in Chicago ... Was Obama asleep for 20 years sitting in the Pews of his Church?

By Eugene Zuverink (Zube) on Sunday, October 12, 2008 - 10:57 pm:

Heikki,, I wish that McCain would say that very thing Wednesday evening in the debate, that is so true. And yet he may be the next President.

By David Soumis (Davesou) on Sunday, October 12, 2008 - 11:23 pm:

don't you think Obama would already have had an FBI security check considering he is a member of the Senate?
even though all the blogs and right wing stuff says all congressmen have security clearance by virtue of their elected office, how can you believe that the CIA, FBI, NSA, and the other 50 security agencies haven't gone through all of their pasts and records with a fine tooth comb. They investigate everything, and if nothing else but to obtain political fodder.

They even investigate lowly ones like us. Even I had a security clearance in the past.the FBI went to the CC and did a very thorough background check on me. I got phone calls from folks up there wondering if I was in trouble or what was going on cause they were up there asking quesitons. so you gotta believe they've checked out Obama and all the rest of them.

That comment about secret service is pretty off the wall..sorry.

Does the Bill Ayers guy still profess to wanting to overthrow the government of the US Is he still supporting bombing government buildings? Do you think he would be out on the street with how the current Patriot Act works? He would have been rounded up a long time ago if he were a threat. Or is that just for muslims and for those that look like they might be?

By Russell E. Emmons (Russemmons) on Monday, October 13, 2008 - 03:11 am:

David Soumis: You are right on with everything you just said. Obama wouldn't have got this far otherwise. Only logical. Surprised no one has mentioned this.

My wife and I have had security checks on us from our oldest daughter being a career US Air Force person (made it to top rank next to an officer)

Much of this on Obama is fomented by Sean Hannity!
Talk about guilt by association ----One of Hannitys best buds is Hal Turner noted Neo Nazi! Go to Google-- check out all there is on him! He is a big time slander merchant!
Anyone who blindly follows him and is his disciple has got to be racist and or anti Semite--to some degree ---period!

By Heikki (Heikki) on Monday, October 13, 2008 - 06:20 am:

That came from a retired Secret Service individual. Clearance requirements and applications vary tremendously.....all based on "the need to know" and criticality of position. I held Top Secret at one time and after the project was complete was immediately downgraded to Secret. Think about this: How could Congress possibly exist if all members had to pass a background check equal to somebody who must use their own body (Secret Service) to protect the POTUS? I stand my ground. Obama would not be cleared for SS work not only because of Ayers, but because of other relationships in his life, such as Frank Davis.

By Heikki (Heikki) on Monday, October 13, 2008 - 08:49 am:

re: Bill Ayers....

He is unrepentant (a matter of record)for past violence. The only reason he got off the hook was because of illegal wiretaps. Don't ever think guys like him and his partner Bernadette Dohrn have changed their political ideology. They found slower but more effective ways to advance their agenda. He and his ilk have been quietly working in the background for years.

By Heikki (Heikki) on Monday, October 13, 2008 - 11:37 am:

My hat's off to your daughter. Achieving E-9 in any branch of service is no easy task. The AF has a good track record of promoting people with the 'right stuff' to that level, which in my humble opinion, is more than 'next to an officer'. Lowest-ranking officer is 2nd Lieutenant. 2nd Loueys worship the ground E-9's walk on. (I know a little about that stuff.) ;-)

By Deb S. (Usedtobeayooper) on Tuesday, October 14, 2008 - 08:46 am:

David H., I agree with you this time. I've been saying for a while that Michelle might be the one we have to fear the most. If not for her, I don't think he'd have been as bad. She is a power hungry woman. And she turned me off the moment she told us that she finally has a reason to be proud of her country. This woman is very scary, and has made him scary also.

By Theresa R. Brunk (Trb0013) on Tuesday, October 14, 2008 - 09:18 am:

"A nation can survive its fools, and even the ambitious.
But it cannot survive treason from within.

An enemy at the gates is less formidable, for he is known and carries his banner openly. But the traitor moves amongst those within the gate freely, his sly whispers rustling through all the alleys, heard in the very halls of government itself.

For the traitor appears not a traitor; he speaks in accents familiar to his victims, and he wears their face and their arguments, he appeals to the baseness that lies deep in the hearts of all men. He rots the soul of a nation, he works secretly and unknown in the night to undermine the pillars of the city, he infects the body politic so that it can no longer resist. A murderer is less to fear. The traitor is the plague."

Marcus Tullius Cicero
Rome 42 AD

By Heikki (Heikki) on Tuesday, October 14, 2008 - 10:02 am:

Great post, Theresa. Just hope we as Americans don't have to relearn this lesson from long ago.

By David Hiltunen (Davidcorrytontn) on Tuesday, October 14, 2008 - 11:32 am:

Theresa great post indeed! When will they ever learn? The answer is blowing in the wind.

By Eddie Allen (Glocktologist21) on Thursday, October 16, 2008 - 12:03 pm:

From above mentioned posts....I'm sure B.O. is quite safe in terms of being checked out as far as his personal background, however, when you're running for high offices in politics and especially for President of the USA, you don't have to be known as a terrorist or a thug because of who you are....
Just being associated with people like Ayers, Dohr,Wright, and other creeps or even having your name associated with people like that is inexcusable and enough for any right thinking American to throw up a warning flag....and that goes for the spouse as well...

By Russell E. Emmons (Russemmons) on Friday, October 17, 2008 - 01:08 am:

Heikki: Thanks for the kind words regards our daughter. She did many things that were "classified" or "sensitive" most we knew nothing about, but a few we did. Now I can say she was in Panama in the Noriega thing Later in Norway involved in the dismantling of NATO bases there that were originally Nazi bases in WW2!
On 9-11 we got a quick call saying we might not be in touch for awhile- we weren't! She had a large responsibility then keeping Selfridge Air Base here in SE MI running since her commanding officer at the time was ill with Cancer. Fuel tankers/Trucks, Fire Engines, Medic trucks, fork lifts, Service equiptment, buses, and all base vehicles were her responsibility. Almost was sent to Iraq but she retired a few years ago at 45 years old. I think though she was E-8. And yes she does look exactly like Sarah Palin--even more then her mother did at that age!

Dave H: When will who learn what?

Yes good post from Theresa, hope we don't have to relearn that but maybe we already have the past 8 years, that's how I took it. "he infects the body politic so that it can no longer resist" etc. (?)

By David Hiltunen (Davidcorrytontn) on Friday, October 17, 2008 - 08:17 pm:

The Americans who may have to relearn what they learnt,Russ. Dittos on your daughter,

By Russell E. Emmons (Russemmons) on Monday, October 20, 2008 - 02:52 am:

My oh my!:
Colin Powell coming out for/endorsing Obama!

GM & Chrysler making it the big "2"? I thought it was bad enough when it became the big 3 and even before when it became the big 4 ! (AMC)

Alaska wants to secede from the union! WOW! South Carolina did that in 1861, some other states followed suit. Didn't work out too well.
I wonder how Russia would react to that? Considering they sold it to us for only $7 million and later always figured they got the short end of the deal! Maybe Canada would like to annex it?

Sarah Palin on Saturday Night Live? ! ! I thought it went well. She and none of the cast got too carried away and behaved, were quite straight about it. Actually Sarah didn't seem overly comfortable and stayed low key. Tina Fey seemed to distance herself from her. Only in America can you see an extreme Liberal such as Alec Baldwin take an extreme right winger such as Sarah by the arm and "let me show you around the NBC studios"! Neat!
I loved Alecs' comment: "Gee you're even hotter in person!" It WAS hard to tell Sarah and Tina apart! Both are good looking women but I'll take Tina!

Canada's banning baby bottles?

Cheez! What IS this world coming to? Makes a good conservative want to pull their hair out LOL!

(Tina Fey for Pres!)

By FJL (Langoman) on Tuesday, October 21, 2008 - 11:32 am:

Joe Biden: Sun. Oct.19......"It will not be six months before the world tests Barak Obama like they did John Kennedy. We're about to elect a brilliant 47-year-old Senator President of the United States of America. Watch, we're gonna have an international crisis, a generated crisis, to test the mettle of this guy"....How many times did they test Clinton????? How many times did they test George W.?

By FRNash/PHX, AZ (Frnash) on Tuesday, October 21, 2008 - 02:20 pm:

I'm kinda surprised that there has been only one additional comment on the Obama thread since (click →) Thursday, October 16, 2008 - 03:30 pm:

Has it escaped everyone's attention?
Is everyone afraid to address the issue?
Am I the only one from the "Cold War" era that finds this to be a serious concern?

By Matt Karhu (Matt_k) on Tuesday, October 21, 2008 - 03:17 pm:

It doesn't take much reasoning to observe that Theresa's quote can apply to some extent to past U.S. presidents and the current president. Alex Jones often gives some very interesting diatribes relative to what is cited in the quote. He can be heard during the afternoons on shortwave frequency 12160 khz.

By FRNash/PHX, AZ (Frnash) on Tuesday, October 21, 2008 - 03:37 pm:

Matt Karhu (Matt_k):

Just to be clear, I was actually referring to the blatantly obvious common thread in Barack Obama's background and upbringing, as discussed in the note just previous to Theresa's. (I couldn't seem to ge a reliable link to that note, so I had to link to Theresa's instead.)

By David Hiltunen (Davidcorrytontn) on Tuesday, October 21, 2008 - 04:18 pm:

From Barney Rubble, I meant to say Barney Frank, said," There are plenty of rich people out there that can be taxed more to help Obama with his plan to spread the wealth around." I am not worried or belive in the polls that the Race is as close as the Drive By Media sez , and I have confidence in the American voters to do what is right. I am worried however that ACORN may have enough voter registration slips to win key States such as Ohio and Michigan. You do know about that Evil group ACORN I hope? Opp's they may come after me for that slanderous remark

By FRNash/PHX, AZ (Frnash) on Tuesday, October 21, 2008 - 05:20 pm:

1. With friends like Joe Biden shooting himself and Obama's campaign in the foot, there's no need for him to worry about McCain's campaign, eh?

2. "… that Evil group ACORN"?
The FBI is already investigating that group.

Will there be any indictments before election day?

By David Hiltunen (Davidcorrytontn) on Tuesday, October 21, 2008 - 08:56 pm:

And may I call him Joe, said something like Obama will be tested right away 1/21/09 if elected. Do you think he has the Kahonies to flex our Military strength? And with two Wars going on already, oh my do we need to go thru that like Clinton did and bomb another Aspirin factory, or was that to cover up Monica I can't recall. I will respect who ever wins to be my/yours President. But here in the USA at least for now me/you can voice/write our criticism about him. And if the Democrat Party gains control, out the window goes Conservative Talk Radio, and soon they will be after your C.B. radio, D-104, RUG-58 coax, antenna, and your Linear Amp of one kilowatt You should have no doubt what my campaign yard sign reads, as do most around here. Sure wish it had Fred's name on it with Palin, but not to be.

By Deb S. (Usedtobeayooper) on Wednesday, October 22, 2008 - 07:37 am:

My oh my, lots going on. I agree with David S. also. He has a way with words which makes you understand what he's talking about.

I also agree with David H. when he spoke of Michelle Obama being the one with the terroristic friends. I've always said that she is the power hungry one and we have to watch her. So, believe it or not David, we agree about something, lol.

I am not an Obama fan. I am also not a McCain fan. Where does that leave me? I guess only November 4 will tell.

By Matt Karhu (Matt_k) on Wednesday, October 22, 2008 - 04:42 pm:

Re Obama, there is an interesting letter to the editor (with interesting comments) in the internet version of the Daily Mining Gazette. It is reassuring to see that there are some thoughtful, intelligent people in the area served by the Gazette.

In this tri-state area of Indiana-Ohio-Kentucky, except for paid political ads the Democratic party has very little representation on TV and radio broadcasts.

By Beverly, San Jose (Beverly) on Saturday, October 25, 2008 - 08:20 pm:

There are some real extremists on this site!!! Some uniformed people stating "why don't we just blow up Iraq & be done with it?" or something to that effect...There are some real hard heads that hold onto their mis-guided belief systems so tightly, just like a baby blanket... I really don't need to argue the finer points of sanity with people like this. They still need a pacifier to suck on, just like Bush.....I keep getting e-mails from pasty members how Obama is the Anti-Christ. They say that it is written in the Book of Revelaltion, because he is Muslin and he is in his 40's and he is coming out of the East, and to please Pass this on to as many people as you can because the whole world should know, because if you think we have it bad now, he will make it worse. How our world will become dark and evil. (you know the kind of e-mails that spread like rabbits.) All I can say is this election has become one of the nastiest I have ever heard of or seen, and I can't believe that people that I thought as or could be my friends and even my sister gets envolved in this rhetoric...their security baby blankets with the edges all chewed up and frayed, or sucking on their pacifiers. A person cannot have a meaningful discussion with someone like this. It is a waste of my time. Neither side wants to listen to what the other has to say, that maybe, just maybe it might be something worth looking into.

On the other hand, I hope you do vote when the time comes, and not just talk about it.


By Eugene Zuverink (Zube) on Sunday, October 26, 2008 - 10:29 am:

Beverly,It is easy to tell your a Obama fan.
Can you tell us why we should vote for him.
Give us some good reasons

By Eugene Zuverink (Zube) on Sunday, October 26, 2008 - 10:58 am:

Beverly these are reasons it is getting nasty.Would you like to have friends like this?

By David Hiltunen (Davidcorrytontn) on Sunday, October 26, 2008 - 11:17 am:

I would not want to belong to a group that would have someone like me as a member.

By FJL (Langoman) on Sunday, October 26, 2008 - 11:45 am:

Extremist, uninformed, mis-guided belief's, hard head...... Could be other people's opinion of you also Bev. Still have your blanket??? Yes, please vote........FJL

By David Soumis (Davesou) on Sunday, October 26, 2008 - 12:34 pm:

beliefs ... opinions ...
We are all taught, or through life experiences, obtain our beliefs, which influence our opinions.
we all have them. Some we agree, some we don't.
The trick is to respect each other for our beliefs, our individualism. Do not ridicule or try to bring down someone for their beliefs or opinions. By all means try to understand why someone holds these beliefs or opinions. Talk about it. Understanding may lead to compromise. Who knows, you may find you even like the person.

Believing absolutely, however, I think is wrong. I'm not sure there is anything absolute, other than death, and even that may not be what we think it is. God? We have FAITH there is a god...but we do not know "absolutely" that there is a god, or gods. At least i don't think its ever been proven without a doubt.

By David Soumis (Davesou) on Sunday, October 26, 2008 - 12:49 pm:

there is a list up above of some people.
I would ask the question of those people whey they believe and think as they do?
What circumstances influenced their beliefs of the US?
It is never justified to kill, but perhaps they see something that others don't. Maybe if you knew what they thought and why, you would even agree with them.

Just like in the Middle East? Why do some Muslims hate the US? Is it because of their religion or because it just happens that the Middle
East is 99% Muslim and there are political problems that influence their feelings towards the USA?

Why do some blacks hate white people, and vice versa? What is it in their past that makes it that way? Its only been 40 years or so that blacks were given the right to vote. Leading up to that and even after, they were hung, shot, torn apart by police dogs, arrested, persecuted, because they wanted their rights and freedom, something granted to all of us ? And the white folks, that were always considered superior, felt threatened? Its still going on.

I think it extremely important we look at all sides and not just go rushing into the night blindfolded by our beliefs. Nationalism, religious fundamentalism, racism, patriotism.

By FRNash/PHX, AZ (Frnash) on Sunday, October 26, 2008 - 01:07 pm:

Eugene Zuverink (Zube):
"Would you like to have friends like this?"

Yes, the folks in that list are of concern, all the more so in the aggregate, in the whole picture, of Obama's background, upbringing and "education".

1. Barack Obama's mother and father met while both were studying Russian(!) at the University of Hawaii at Manoa (in the late 1950's?). Who was studying Russian during that era?.

2. They let Barack develop a close relationship, "almost like a son", through his high school years, with a known communist -- and member of the Communist Party USA (CPUSA), Frank Marshall Davis, who Barack himself later refers to as a "friend and adviser", in his autobiographical "Dreams from My Father".

One must wonder what manner of political mush was this "mentor" filling the mind of this brilliant but perhaps vulnerable student in his formative years!

3. Three years after abandoning is wife and son, Barack Obama's father wrote a paper entitled "Problems Facing Our Socialism," that was published in the East Africa Journal. Yes, after he left them behind, but it does serve to further demonstrate the political "environment" that Barak Obama was exposed to during his formative years.

Is it any wonder, then, that when Barack later moved to Chicago, he chose to associate with the kind of folks in that list?

"Birds of a feather flock together?"

Now even a graduate of the Jethro Bodine School of Cypherin' (c.f. The Beverly Hillbillies) should be able to add two plus two and identify the common thread in Barack Obama's background and upbringing!

Should all this leave me a bit uneasy about this presidential candidate? Well, it does!

For more detail, see the thread: Politics, Barack Obama

By Eugene Zuverink (Zube) on Sunday, October 26, 2008 - 03:20 pm:

I,m not worried about our economy, it will come around, it will get worse before it gets better, but it will straighten out.I'm worried about these terrorist times, can you picture Obama our leader if we were attacked. I think Bush has done a good job protecting this Country since 9/11. It is going to happen here again and soon. Biden is right, either Obama or the next President how ever he said it will be tried.
Was Bush tried about seven and a half years after taking office, you bet he was.
I think the next one will be worse. I sure wouldn't want that kid with a pacifier in his mouth as my President in those times

By David Hiltunen (Davidcorrytontn) on Sunday, October 26, 2008 - 06:47 pm:

there is a list up above of some people.
I would ask the question of those people why they believe and think as they do?

If I am on that list, My beliefs come from common sense of the facts I gather from the study, and to understand the truth could be stretched a little. Forever live in the belief of Capitalism, and our Forefathers belief in God given rights. Still a right to be a empty suit if you want.

By Deb S. (Usedtobeayooper) on Sunday, October 26, 2008 - 08:13 pm:

As far as I can tell, there are many of us who are afraid of what will happen should Obama become President. How, then, does he even happen to be in a position to become our President? Many people must have voted for him. He makes me very uneasy.

By David Hiltunen (Davidcorrytontn) on Sunday, October 26, 2008 - 10:17 pm:

Many a young man have been groomed to become the President Of The United States Of America one day.Not all are cut out for it See the eye in The Pyramid? Clinton told JFK he would be President some day back then.That was the only time he told the truth. LOL It just makes a big difference who is doing the grooming! Obama's handlers are not friends of the U.S.A. Is the way I see it. Tell me where I went wrong with the path I choose to travel up. You must of taken the low road, which is easier. That don't make me better then you, however!

By Snowman (Snowman) on Monday, October 27, 2008 - 09:45 am:

Oh ye of little faith. What do you think will happen should McCain become prez??? It'll never happen. Voting early and casting my vote for the best candidate; Barack Obama.

By Eugene Zuverink (Zube) on Monday, October 27, 2008 - 10:22 am:

I said Bush was tried seven and a half YEARS after taking office, no one seemed to have picked up on that, I meant MONTHS of course.
SNOWMAN!! Don't get into any thing about McCain, just give us a few good reason why you would vote for a guy that has done nothing for our country as long as he has been a senator, nothing, voted 194 times present so he didn't have to take a stand either way, gutless.
McCain may not win but you could help if you thought this out.

By Snowman (Snowman) on Monday, October 27, 2008 - 10:44 am:

Tsk, tsk, tsk! Us? Who may I ask is "us"? Didn't know this was a Republican thread. I didn't slam McCain like you slammed Obama. Have a great day.

By Heikki (Heikki) on Monday, October 27, 2008 - 10:47 am:

"Would you like to have friends like this?"

It’s not so much why Obama chose to associate with certain people, but rather what people like Tony Rezko, William Ayers, Jeremiah Wright, "Calypso" Louie Farrakhan, and Odinga saw in Obama.

By Eugene Zuverink (Zube) on Monday, October 27, 2008 - 11:28 am:

Ok Snowman, forget the US and change it to ME.
What is it you see in this guy, tell ME somthing to convince ME, somthing. Or is it that you are a die hard Democrat and would vote for a Democrat even if it was FARRAKHAN.
You no nothing, nothing about Obama and neither does anyone else, he has come out of the woodwork and no one knows anything about him or any thing he has accomplished for our country, nothing, convince me Snowman

By Eugene Zuverink (Zube) on Monday, October 27, 2008 - 11:39 am:

HEIKKI I would be scared to have friends like that. Do you think he "Obama" owes them any favors, you bet he does.

By Eugene Zuverink (Zube) on Monday, October 27, 2008 - 11:53 am:

Snowman on your post July 25 you said is this Presidential race based on colors red white and blue or the colors black and white.No one can say there voting for him because he is black, he is neither black or white, remember he is half and half, so take your pick

By FJL (Langoman) on Monday, October 27, 2008 - 12:47 pm:

I see the Snowman is following the Democratic motto. "Vote early and vote often".......:o)

By David Hiltunen (Davidcorrytontn) on Monday, October 27, 2008 - 01:48 pm:

My adopted Son has a Black father and white mother, he turned 24 yesterday. He has a white wife and they gave us two of the ten granddaughters we have. I belive he has done more for this Country with the job he has, and with his training will continue to do more by having a Concealed Weapon Permit. We have nothing against BHO running for President, he is just not our Guy. Not because he is a Democrat or Muslim, or worked his way up as a thug in Chicago, and may not have been born in the U.S. or because of the friend's he keeps. He may not eat pork or will not have a dog in the White House. That is not why I won't vote for him. ( He is a Socialist and wants to spread the wealth around. That means more dollars going to taxes.)

And the Supreme Court Judge's he will put in black robes will frighten white/black people more so then the white robe extremists who scared black/white folks long ago.

Most card carrying Republicans will vote along party lines, Democrats, most will not vote for Obama because of Race, is the way I will call the race on who wins. Unless he Obama, finds a way in eight days to tie himself to himself, because many don't belive he has done so. It will be tough for the Supreme Court to do all this redistribution of the wealth BHO wants, because on the Constitution now in place. Do you want to change it? Give us on the other side, some substance to change our mind, hurry. Or I think he will have to go back to one of his old job's of being a Lawyer for Acorn.

By Snowman (Snowman) on Monday, October 27, 2008 - 02:11 pm:

You betcha FJL, can you see the 25 "I Voted" stickers pasted on my forehead? :)

By Eugene Zuverink (Zube) on Monday, October 27, 2008 - 02:39 pm:

Snowman hurry up give me some reasons I should vote for him. Don't keep all your good reasons to yourself, share them with me, time is running out, I have to make a decision

By Snowman (Snowman) on Monday, October 27, 2008 - 03:07 pm:

Zube, I'll help you out with your big decision; I think you should decide to go get yourself a nice cold beer.


By David Hiltunen (Davidcorrytontn) on Monday, October 27, 2008 - 03:44 pm:

Let's keep it cool and send Snowman along with his beer to Siberia.

Theresa, sorry to read about your layoff on the main page. I suppose it can be blamed on the economy. Would you care to expand on that topic? To let other's know, if they don't, Theresa is a Plumber and it has to be a Bummer to get laid off so close to the Holidays. www.joetheplumber wants to buy into the business an hire some people, but who wants to move to Ohio?

By Cindy Barga (Hoosiergirl) on Monday, October 27, 2008 - 04:22 pm:

I think some of you die hard Republicans would vote for Satan if there were an (R) beside his or her name. Oh wait you already did, twice.

By Snowman (Snowman) on Monday, October 27, 2008 - 04:51 pm:

Well, there's one person going to Siberia with me, you game Cindy? No hot air blowing and cold brewskis. OOPS, hang on, too close to Baribou Barbie.

By A. David Archibald (Yooperatheart61) on Monday, October 27, 2008 - 05:02 pm:

Snowman and Cindy Barga:
Make room for me as I agree with you 100%!!

By Snowman (Snowman) on Monday, October 27, 2008 - 05:09 pm:

Oh boy, better buy more beer.

By Deb S. (Usedtobeayooper) on Monday, October 27, 2008 - 05:49 pm:

Geez, this is getting nasty. We're going to send somebody to Siberia because he's voting for the candidate we don't like? I don't like Obama either, and I'm a Democrat. But I'm not going to send somebody to Siberia because he believes in somebody that I don't believe in.

I do think that Republicans vote more along party lines than Democrats do. We're willing to vote for the person, and not the party. Too bad there's nobody on either side worth voting for. However, I WOULD vote for McCain before I voted for Obama. There's a man not to be trusted, but that's MY opinion, and Snowman can have whatever opinion he wants to have. This is still a free country. Let's hope and pray it stays that way.

By Theresa R. Brunk (Trb0013) on Monday, October 27, 2008 - 05:51 pm:

I will move to Ohio!! it's closer to Michigan. I just have to sell a whole house of stuff and ah who cares..... But before I leave Florida I will vote my conscience.

By Snowman (Snowman) on Monday, October 27, 2008 - 06:34 pm:

A vote for McCain means you are "insane".

Nasty? It's only nasty because Obama is not your man.

Hope and pray? Just go out and vote.

Ain't going to Siberia, going to the place I love best.....to bed, good night, hope you realize through the night, that you have a bad insight. Get real folks.

I VOTED FOR OBAMA today and proud of it. The building trades support him, what's that tell you???

By Snowman (Snowman) on Monday, October 27, 2008 - 06:38 pm:

If Barack doesn't win, I wish you all the best of luck. Another 4 years of Bush.

By FRNash/PHX, AZ (Frnash) on Monday, October 27, 2008 - 07:29 pm:

If Obama does win, along with strong Democratic majorities in both houses, then all those historically un-knowledgeable sheeple that his buddies in ACORN signed up (at least the living, breathing ones, not including "Mickey Mouse" and all the other fabricated ones) will soon come to learn exactly what unbridled socialism really is, and in four years we'll have another dramatic swing back in the other direction, as we did after the "Peanut Farmer" debacle

It that event, while it will be ugly, it may be for the best in the long run. Some folks just have to learn the hard way, but at least the painful lessons are more vividly remembered.

By Eugene Zuverink (Zube) on Monday, October 27, 2008 - 07:31 pm:

Deb Snowman doesn't have an opinion, I have been trying all day to get his opinion he won't give one. He's been drinking beer all day, he just thinks he voted for Obama.He dosen't really know. Deb you know that McCain is "WORTH" voting for. It would be a lot better than Nancy P and her crew running this country

By Deb S. (Usedtobeayooper) on Monday, October 27, 2008 - 07:42 pm:

When I got home from work, I went to the computer to see what was going on today. I thought people were kind of ganging up on Snowman and thought I'd let you all know that he is entitled to his own opinion. He didn't seem to appreciate it much and he kind of jumped down my throat too. Don't know what's up with that, but whatever. I don't agree with him in his opinion of Obama, but that's okay. We can agree to disagree. Like a lot of people, I think he came out of nowhere and just all of a sudden there he was. He's done no more (if not less) than Sarah Palin has done but he's the candidate for President. Go figure! Yet many people think that she doesn't know enough to be VP of this country. Where's the logic in that? I admit to being so confused this year.

By David Hiltunen (Davidcorrytontn) on Monday, October 27, 2008 - 09:14 pm:

This new 30 second ad is powerful.

For 20 years Barack Obama followed a preacher of hate and said nothing while Wright raged against our country.
[Clip of Rev. Wright:] "Not God Bless America, God •••• America . . . US of KKKA!"

[Quote of Obama appears on screen:] "I don’t think my church is particularly controversial."

He built his power base in Wright's church.

Wright was his mentor, adviser and close friend.

For 20 years Obama never complained until he ran for President.

Barack Obama. Too radical. Too risky.

I don't want to send Snowman to Siberia because of his hypnotic state of mind. I just want him to keep his beer cold in Sigh beer area so it will take some time for him to get up and go get one. Just because I didn't like Clinton as our Leader, don't mean I wouldn't have a beer and party with the man.

By Eugene Zuverink (Zube) on Monday, October 27, 2008 - 09:58 pm:

You think were ganging up one Snowman,
Well it's these kind of people that scare the •••• out of me,. Again he doesn't have a clue why he voted for Obama, Like my earlier post ,if Farrakhan was running he would vote for him, because he is a Democrat or nothing and that is the wrong way to vote. Again, there is not one good thing Obama has done for this Country as long as he has been a Senator, not one.
It irratates me that people vote for he or she just because they are one of THERE party, thats wrong. Yes I am a Republican, and Barack couldn't hold a candle for McCain in this election. If Obama was a better candadate, thats who I would vote for, but he's not

By David Soumis (Davesou) on Monday, October 27, 2008 - 11:44 pm:

I'm not hearing much of what McCain will do either. Mostly he and Palin are bashing Obama.

Both Obama and McCain need to stick to the issues. What are they really going to do.

Lots of lip service. will there be any action?

Obama, basically no national experience. I'm surprised he even ran ... it makes me think there is some big money behind him, obviously...but its no different with McCain..they are both buried in contributions...and are backed by some pretty big political heavyweights..and businesses.

Obama more than likely got the nod , though, because he appeared to not have a lot of baggage like H. Clinton. He can motivate a crowd. He's fresh so he doesn't seem as likely to have all that government corruption wrapped around himself like most of the rest do. He can actually say he could be a change because he hasn't been there long enough to influence anything.
The guy is obviously smart, well spoken. I think his heart is in the right place. Having a bit of socialism isn't all a bad thing, as long as it isn't a straight handout. There are a lot of our fellow citizens that could use some help. We should help them.
We just socialized the banking and loan industry. Why not throw a little our way..the regular guy.

No matter which one of these guys gets elected, its going to be a hard road. I can't believe Obama could give a tax cut to anybody, with the fact we're giving away trillions of dollars. It might be a good economic incentive , though, if we had a few bucks to spend. Right now everyone is trying to pay off their credit cards and other debts instead of shopping.

Obama doesn't "scare" me at all. McCain does.
To me he seems like an angry old white guy. He's erratic, tempermental. He's a war monger even though he says he's not. Its victory or nothing. How far is he willing to go to achieve that victory, and how far will he push other countries to achieve national security for the US?
Is he willing to talk to other leaders, even though he doesn't agree with?

Obama is a killer. He already said he will kill Bin LAden...he will attack him wherever he is...into Pakistan, which is a country that already told us they don't want us in there..period. He wants to send more troops to Afghanistan. more war..bigger war there. I'm all for peace, not war, so he doesn't fit in with my idea for an ideal candidate.

So you see, I can't vote for either of those guys. I would rather not vote than vote for either of them.

And Nancy Pelosi needs to lose her election against Cindy Sheehan. It would tickle me pink to see that fake , botoxed smile wiped off her conniving face.

By FRNash/PHX, AZ (Frnash) on Tuesday, October 28, 2008 - 01:01 am:

"Nancy Pelosi vs. Cindy Sheehan"

What a choice to be faced with!
Kind of a Morton's fork! (A choice between two equally unpleasant alternatives.)

Of course I imagine that Dana Walsh has a snowball's chance in Phoenix on a good day in California's 8th CD? — That's an interesting couple of photographs on her web page!

By David Soumis (Davesou) on Tuesday, October 28, 2008 - 07:13 am:

its all in how you look at things, isn't it?
To me, The US had a chance to have a strong South American alli in Chavez, but he resisted our imperialistic advances and was then shunned by the Bush government. Now he moves closer to Russia. Can't blame the guy ... they need muscle to lean on, considering the US wants to overthrow him and get a government in there that is more friendly to the US.

Its a good thing to talk to Syria. The Middle East is a powderkeg just waiting to explode. Talking is the only way to achieve peace.

That Walsh lady , to me, is indeed a radical. Saber rattling, fear mongering radical.

By Snowman (Snowman) on Tuesday, October 28, 2008 - 08:06 am:

Well looks like I obtained my goal, got this thread active again.

Have a great day folks! :)

By FJL (Langoman) on Tuesday, October 28, 2008 - 08:58 am:

Eugene: Snowman ansered your question of why he voted for Obama. Because the "Building Trade's support him". Ask a question and you will get an answer, kind of...........

By Snowman (Snowman) on Tuesday, October 28, 2008 - 09:52 am:

Reasons to vote for McCain;
1) Wealth
2) Ignorance
3) Racism

Just remember, Bush was "high on Jesus and short on details". Want another four years of that?

Now, you may continue the bashing.

By Eugene Zuverink (Zube) on Tuesday, October 28, 2008 - 09:57 am:

Now McCain is a war monger, I beleive thats a new one, first time I heard that one.
One of these guys is going to be our President.Don't do like Obama and vote PRESENT.
Your lucky you get a chance to vote.

By Cindy Barga (Hoosiergirl) on Tuesday, October 28, 2008 - 10:02 am:

There seems to be alot of talk about Obama supporting socialism. When the bank bailout happened,which John McCain took credit for, succeed in nationalizing the banking system?

By David Hiltunen (Davidcorrytontn) on Tuesday, October 28, 2008 - 10:39 am:

Your not hearing much of what McCain will do? Where have you been? It will be another four or more years of Bush,without as many flaws.And with a war monger in office we will remain safe. What's wrong with that? Oh I know, war monger is a code word for I hate the Military.

By A. David Archibald (Yooperatheart61) on Tuesday, October 28, 2008 - 12:04 pm:

Snowman: perfect post!!!

By FRNash/PHX, AZ (Frnash) on Tuesday, October 28, 2008 - 12:09 pm:

David Soumis (Davesou):
"Talking is the only way to achieve peace."

Oh yeah, like that worked real well for Neville Chamberlain in 1938?


"…the settlement of the Czechoslovakian problem, which has now been achieved is, in my view, only the prelude to a larger settlement in which all Europe may find peace. This morning I had another talk with the German Chancellor, Herr Hitler, and here is the paper which bears his name upon it as well as mine (waves paper to the crowd - receiving loud cheers and "Hear Hears"). …"

David Soumis (Davesou) on Tuesday, October 28, 2008 - 05:25 pm:

by the time Chamberlin was trying to bring peace, it was too late. It wasn't only him.
Then of course, Hitler wasn't a rational human, so talking would do no good. He had a plan and was going to carry it out no matter what.

I never said I wasn't against defense.

I don't appreciate being called anti-military if that comment up above was directed at me. I spent 14 years of my life in the military, and 1 in Nam getting shot at. My brother was in the Army for 30 years. My dad was in WW2. Don't give me that crap.

I am against using the military in preemptive strikes and in the pursuit of resources. Its a given we need a strong military for defense.

There will be times when even a peaceful person has to defend himself. I'm all for that, but I would surely try to use negotiations rather than force.

By Deb S. (Usedtobeayooper) on Tuesday, October 28, 2008 - 06:05 pm:

Hear, hear David S. Very well said!!!

Who says Dana Walsh would be better than either of the other 2? Pelosi is a puke, no doubt, but we don't know what she would do either.

By David Soumis (Davesou) on Tuesday, October 28, 2008 - 07:26 pm:

check this site out.
what do you think?
don't le tthe term "progressive" throw you off right away. Read the book. Its free reading.
Here's a couple of paragraphs form the site to lighten the load on your mind:

"Welcome to The True Patriot Network. What better time than an election year to distinguish between true and false patriots? In this campaign season, candidates and media have focused our attention on lapel pins, the pledge of allegiance, symbols, and declarations. But what is true patriotism?

Our recent nationwide poll reveals that Americans are deeply dissatisfied with how our political leaders typically invoke patriotism. We crave a new vision of patriotism that emphasizes the future, constructive change, and progressive civic values.

At The True Patriot Network, our contention is that when you unpack true American patriotism — the idea of country before self — what you discover is a moral framework that goes back to this nation's founding, and that is inherently progressive. Living by such principles as service, stewardship, tolerance, and equality of opportunity, true patriots show that devotion to this nation means working to help America reach its exceptional potential and promise.

Whatever your party, faction, or faith, we hope you will agree that we owe our country and the next generation a more purposeful politics. We invite you to read our book, The True Patriot, and continue the discussion".

By David Hiltunen (Davidcorrytontn) on Tuesday, October 28, 2008 - 07:28 pm:

I knew you served your Country Dave S. When some one uses the term War Monger they most often are after you listen to for awhile. I really do like your personality and you do a great job with your post's. If only things could be how you want, I'd be ok with that. My Dad and your Uncle were good friends.

Negotiations works fine for contracts in Sports and Labor disputes ect. because each party has a good idea of what each other is worth. Treaties have been made and broken all over the world. It is not a easy job being the worlds Super Power. But look how we came about that. There are just to many people who gave up their life to stop and hand it over to another Country with out a fight, they would be turning over in their graves. I don't think we abuse the power we have. We just can't let some of these crazy dictators do the type of things they want, to us or their own people. Who could we hand things over to because we don't want to be the Super Power any longer? The masses are tired of it and don't want to spend money on defense. Nobody wants to give up anything, which negotiations mean. We can't even negotiate how much taxes one has to pay. If you are in the high upper class, you will under Obama go from 36% to 39% tax bracket. We have to negotiate with our children now a days, we can't hand out the same punishment of a slap on the behind like it used to be.

By Eugene Zuverink (Zube) on Tuesday, October 28, 2008 - 08:25 pm:

What Country in the Middle East would want to sit down and negotiate with the United States.
They don't want to sit down, they want to kill us.

By Bob S (Oldtoot) on Tuesday, October 28, 2008 - 09:41 pm:

As a resident of Illinois, and therefore represented by Senator
Obama. I would like to point out that after running for the Senate,
he promptly began running for the presidency. So much for our
having a representative in Washington. Will he if elected, begin
running a campaign to become Secretary General of the UN?

By Deb S. (Usedtobeayooper) on Tuesday, October 28, 2008 - 10:07 pm:

God forbid!!!!!

By FRNash/PHX, AZ (Frnash) on Wednesday, October 29, 2008 - 01:17 am:

Obama as Secretary General of the UN?
He would be a good fit with that organization.

Better that than President of the ol' USA!

Pytavey, didja ever notice how many folks (including John McCain) pronounce that title as "Prezunitedstates"?

By Deb S. (Usedtobeayooper) on Wednesday, October 29, 2008 - 07:19 am:

Did YOU ever notice how Obama pronounces Pakistan? He pronounces it like Laura Ingalls would say "Pa" in both the first and last "a's" in the word as in "Pa kees", and then, "ta n". Darn near everybody else you hear pronounces it like "pack is tan". I don't know the significance, I just know that that's always bothered me.

By Heikki (Heikki) on Wednesday, October 29, 2008 - 09:00 am:

Keen observation, Deb. Obama very likely learned that pronunciation while going to school in Indonesia under the name Barry Soertero.

By Eddie Allen (Glocktologist21) on Wednesday, October 29, 2008 - 09:42 am:

***Just remember, Bush was "high on Jesus and short on details". Want another four years of that?***

...Maybe more people should try being "high on Jesus" and the world would be a better place...When people start tending to vote for the Democrats, you can assure that Jesus is not in their best interest....

By Marianne Y (Marianne) on Wednesday, October 29, 2008 - 10:32 am:

Deb, Obama's pronunciation of Pakistan is the way that people from Pakistan, ie, the lady candidate for President of Pakistan who was assassinated a while ago, as well as the former President of Pakistan, Musharroff, pronounce it. She used to do a lot of TV interviews in the years preceding her assassination, so I can still clearly hear her speaking, in my mind. Obama must have some ties to that area, however he came across them.

Add to that, Obama's ties now to the PLO affiliate are now coming to light. There is a video tape that the Los Angeles Times is hiding, because they don't want his affiliation with yet another person who is not a friend of the U.S., to come to light. That PLO guy apparently even babysat Obama's daughters and was a dinner guest in the Obama home. I wonder how Obama will try to weasel out of that one?

By Snowman (Snowman) on Wednesday, October 29, 2008 - 10:40 am:

Are you people for real??? Unbelievable.

As for Jesus, his message in his central teachings was to help the poor. What have the Republicans done to help the poor???

This site needs to be called "Comedy Central"!
I've never laughed so hard in all of my life!

By Cindy Barga (Hoosiergirl) on Wednesday, October 29, 2008 - 11:04 am:

I bet they think that Jesus was also a white man.

By Eugene Zuverink (Zube) on Wednesday, October 29, 2008 - 11:15 am:

CINDY!! Would it make a difference what color Jesus is, not was ???

By A. David Archibald (Yooperatheart61) on Wednesday, October 29, 2008 - 12:08 pm:

Two more great posts by Cindy Barga and Snowman. It is truly sad, how hateful and full of nonsense, some of the post on this site have become. Just came back from the UP and was told while I was up there that if Obama wins the world will come to an end because he is a muslim terrorist plant and the Bible says the world will come to an end. Hows that for utter nonsense. As for Obama being a muslim because he attended a muslim school, I attended a "Public" school" as a child that was run by the Roman Catholic Church and I' m not even close to being a RC. There are so many lies being spread on this site, that "Comedy Central" is a good name for sure.

By Heikki (Heikki) on Wednesday, October 29, 2008 - 01:27 pm:

More comedy:

By Cindy Barga (Hoosiergirl) on Wednesday, October 29, 2008 - 01:48 pm:

Thanks David. I was merely trying to say that it does not matter what color a person's skin is or his religious affiliations. Jesus was a man who inspired people. He had people who believed in him and what he was teaching. I'm just tired of all the Muslim bashing on this thread. Not all Muslim's hijack planes then crash them into buildings. Not all people of color are lazy, thieves, or gangsters. There are plenty of white people who would fit into that category. Remember Timothy McVeigh? I do.

By FRNash/PHX, AZ (Frnash) on Wednesday, October 29, 2008 - 02:04 pm:

I'm going to toss a monkey wrench (from "left" field?!) in here, if only to stimulate some more conversation.

So I presume that if elected, Obama will soon resurrect FDR's advocacy of a Second Bill of Rights?

See also (from a link at the bottom of the previous article): FDR's Unfinished "Second Bill of Rights" – and Why We Need it Now

I can well imagine some participants here being in favor of that!

Pros? Cons? Discussion?

By Snowman (Snowman) on Wednesday, October 29, 2008 - 02:08 pm:

Cindy and David, those were good, soft, mellow retorts. I sure don't detect any rage or hate in your posts.

By Snowman (Snowman) on Wednesday, October 29, 2008 - 05:04 pm:

FRNash, this speaks for itself;

We have come to a clear realization of the fact that true individual
freedom cannot exist without economic security and independence.
Necessitous men are not free men. People who are hungry and out of a
job are the stuff of which dictatorships are made.
In our day these economic truths have become accepted as self-
evident. We have accepted, so to speak, a second Bill of Rights
under which a new basis of security and prosperity can be
established for all – regardless of station, race, or creed. Among
these are:
• The right to a useful and remunerative job…
• The right to a good education.
• The right of every businessman, large and small, to trade in an atmosphere of freedom from unfair competition and domination by monopolies…
• The right to adequate protection from the economic fears of old age, sickness, accident, and unemployment.
• The right to adequate medical care and the opportunity to achieve and enjoy good health.
• The right of every family to a decent home.
• The right to earn enough to provide adequate food and clothing and recreation.

That says it all.

By David Soumis (Davesou) on Wednesday, October 29, 2008 - 05:20 pm:

its beyond comedy central..bordering on laughable insanity, except for the appearance that a lot of you actually believe the stuff you're saying.

You know, I bet if you guys really knew who you were talking to every day...and affiliated with, and had a beer with, you would be surprised that quite a few were communists, quite a few were socialists, quite a few belonged to the militia, some even the group our buddy Tim McVie was part of. I bet some of the folks you know were involved in protests during the Vietnam war...some were even involved with radical "terrorist" groups during that time.
Some of the people you know really practice Christianity, just like Jesus taught...not that convoluted stuff these right wing republican moral majority folks preach. Its truly amazing.

Would you not associate with your neighbor ? Do you REALLY know who is holding or caring for you son or daughter? I mean really know. Then all of a sudden this someone blows away 15 people and you all go...geez, he was just a normal next door neighbor, such a nice guy.... then you find out he's been plotting this for 15 years..and all the while he was at your house having beer and barbecued chicken, playing with your kids.

I would like to know what is the problem with a liberated Palestine? Why is there a PLO ? I don;t condone killing, but I can surely understand we they do what they do. We would be doing exactly the same thing if some country decided to basically coup us up, sort of like the native Americans on the Rez .... then abuse, belittle, take away your freedom and liberties. There would be "terrorists" among you...or would that be "Freedom Fighters".

Give me a brake already. And I spelled brake that way on purpose.

Democrats don't believe in Jesus? Now that really takes a lot of balls to say. I will go so far to say that most democrats exhibit a closer relationship to the teachings of Jesus than a whole bunch of republicans I hear spouting all kinds of BS about not helping people...oh, they're not getting any of my hard earned cash..the bums...and I've read that right on this site quite a few times.


now..I'm really sorry if this offends anybody, but I really think some of you need to stop and think what you are saying...look at it sort of like reality.

By David Hiltunen (Davidcorrytontn) on Wednesday, October 29, 2008 - 05:44 pm:

There has been no rage,hate in any of the post's on here,or they would have been removed.But some are saying these are lies,because they can't handle the truth. It's okay burry your head in the sand or snow,we will let you know when it is safe to come out. Maybe? I don't want to lie.Some are going to feel so foolish for not believing in the truth being told here that a " I am sorry thread" will need to be formed. What have the Republicans done to help the poor was asked.That question really shows just how uninformed some are!

FRNash,,that was scary to read,thanks for the haunting. I will read it to the grandchildren before they go to sleep tonight.You betcha afew participants here will be in favor of that!

By Snowman (Snowman) on Wednesday, October 29, 2008 - 05:45 pm:

David, what an inspiring post! Who the H E double hockey sticks, gives a Hoot how the candidates pronounce their words. I am just amazed at the ignorance of these posters. Sorry, but, I have never seen anything like this in my entire life, except for Saturday Night Live.

You people are in "La-La land".

I still can't believe how gullible you all are.

By Cindy Barga (Hoosiergirl) on Wednesday, October 29, 2008 - 05:52 pm:

I'm not offended. I think you said that very well.

By Cindy Barga (Hoosiergirl) on Wednesday, October 29, 2008 - 05:55 pm:

David Hiltunen, you are one of the biggest haters in this thread.

By A. David Archibald (Yooperatheart61) on Wednesday, October 29, 2008 - 05:57 pm:

David Soumis
you sure said a mouthful-Bravo! Bravo!
Snowmwn: It boggles the mind why anyone(especally those who claim to be Christians) could object to your post! Super!!

By Snowman (Snowman) on Wednesday, October 29, 2008 - 05:58 pm:

Like I said before;
Vote for McBush if:
1 You're wealthy
2 If you're ignorant
3 If you're a racist

Hmm, Wonder why McBush didn't come to Michigan? Could it be because the majority of the state thinks "black is beautiful"?

By Deb S. (Usedtobeayooper) on Wednesday, October 29, 2008 - 06:15 pm:

What am I missing with the Jesus connection? I don't get it!!! I think we all believe in Jesus, both Democrats and Republicans, and everybody in between. I don't see how that has anything to do with any of this. We all have our own belief in politics.

Thanks, Marianne. I assumed that's how they pronounced it over there. It just bothers me. Every time he says it I just cringe. But then there's not a lot about him that I like. And guess what folks, it doesn't have to be about black and white. I don't care what color his skin is. It is the person that I don't like. You guys just assume that we don't like him because he's black. Well, I don't like McCain either, and he's white.

I wish we had different candidates on both sides of the fence, but it seems we have to play with the hand we've been dealt. I don't like either candidate. I know that makes most of you angry, but it's how I feel. I don't even want to think about Obama in office. And then you have McCain who will probably continue along with Bush's ideas. Just what we need is another 4 years of this crap. And what if McCain doesn't live long? Then we've got Sarah Palin. Not a good thought either. I haven't studied all of this the way a lot of you have, I can just go by my gut. My gut tells me that neither of these candidates should be running for President of the US.

By David Soumis (Davesou) on Wednesday, October 29, 2008 - 06:25 pm:

there are alternative candidates. Most of you have never heard of them. The 2 major parties have the media, the money, even the citizens, all wrapped up.
How about Cynthia McKinney and Rosa Clementi?
Bob Barr
Ralph Nader
Chuck Baldwin

We all vote for the lesser of 2 evils. This has been going on for quite a few years.
So what is wrong with this? Why not vote for someone that you actually want? Why not break away from the 2 party nightmare and corruption and start to support and work for some REAL change ?

before you know it, someone that you really want will be in there. Instead of funneling your money down the same old toilet election after election, put your money with someone you want. Support an alternative party, such as the Greens. Get them elected locally, in the state, and national.

Make a change. The reason nothing changes is that we always vote for the lesser of 2 evils. If we all support an alternative, guess what..they would get elected. Break the circle

By Snowman (Snowman) on Wednesday, October 29, 2008 - 06:29 pm:

My answer on this post is: Vote for Barack!


By Deb S. (Usedtobeayooper) on Wednesday, October 29, 2008 - 06:38 pm:

I am actually voting for somebody other than the 2 major candidates. I cannot in good conscience vote for either of those two guys. And Dave is right, if we all quit complaining, and actually voted for somebody else, it might catch on. I'm making a statement this year, and I hope that others will too. I know my guy, or gal, won't get elected, but all I can do is vote my conscience.

By David Hiltunen (Davidcorrytontn) on Wednesday, October 29, 2008 - 07:29 pm:

Ouch that hurts Cindy, please do not get that personal with your attacks. It will cause editing which is extra work for Charlie & Mary ect. I do not hate anybody for there political view. I will not or could not burn down a abortion clinic because of my view of it. I do dislike criminals of all kinds, and belive in the Death Penalty, even though a very small % will die innocent, not as many as years gone by with the best CSI and DNA evidence in place today. I do not hate! I could easily fire a weapon to take out, yes kill another human to protect a innocent life, yours or mine. I have no regrets in life because I never done anything heinous. I am as squeaky clean as Ralph Nader, who I like. Why I used to brown bag it for lunch too. I love all of you out there on here. XOXOX

I forgot to say I belive in God too.

By Deb S. (Usedtobeayooper) on Wednesday, October 29, 2008 - 07:37 pm:

When I read that, I thought the same thing David. I hope none of us on here hates anybody else. We're just stating our opinions. The others can listen or they don't have to.

The "I Am Sorry" thread idea made me laugh. Sometimes you crack me up. But could you please tell this uninformed person what the Republicans have done for the poor? Inquiring minds and all..................

By Eugene Zuverink (Zube) on Wednesday, October 29, 2008 - 07:42 pm:

Snowman, Soumis, and Cindy you are three sad cases..Cindy, where is the hate from David H, put your glasses on and read it again.
Cindy look at your post of Oct. 27 4:22 pm you talk about hate, that post was down right nasty.

By Eugene Zuverink (Zube) on Wednesday, October 29, 2008 - 07:52 pm:

Deb if your not going to vote for McCain, just stay home and save your gas, plus it will be cold up there in MN. David H and I need your help, VOTE McCAIN, there I knew we could convince you

By FRNash/PHX, AZ (Frnash) on Wednesday, October 29, 2008 - 08:41 pm:

It appears that some participants here have forgotten the Pasty Camsm Acceptable Use Policy, especially the part as reads:


"Personal attacks, offensive language or inflammatory remarks are not welcome."

So let's just …
… knock it off!

David Hiltunen (Davidcorrytontn) on Wednesday, October 29, 2008 - 08:54 pm:

No Deb, go vote for someone other then the two main parties.This time it will take votes away from Obama, like Perot did from Bush one, after his "Read my lips No new taxes" Some of us staunch conservatives could not vote for him a second time, and let Clinton get his foot in the door. Republicans have done more for the poor then our first Black President ever did. But where oh where can I find that fact. You all think budget cut's have caused hardship on the poor for certain programs. Maybe what you don't know is that so called cut's in spending are not cut's at all. They just will not spend any more money or any less on them then they did the year before. Have you been given a job by a poor person, that you could live on and save? Most rich Republicans are the factory/ Company owners who pay out a lot in payroll each week if your not talking about just the Party, but the people. I like cracking people up. I have often said, " Humor has to have some truth in it to be funny." Republicans want to take as little Tax from you as possible, so the rich can grow the Enterprise which causes the Economy to trickle on down to expand the Middle Class. 86% of all federal income tax are paid by the top 25% of income earners. Up from 84% in 2000. In 1980 when the top income tax rate was 70% the richest 1% paid only 19% of all income taxes. Now with a top rate of 35% the rich pay more then double that share. Wouldn't you love to have the headache of being in that tax bracket?

By David Soumis (Davesou) on Wednesday, October 29, 2008 - 08:56 pm:

did any of you fine Americans watch the Obama commercial that just aired?
He nearly convinced me to vote for him. I have to say I agree with a lot of what he says. Can it be done, especially with the current economic conditions? Highly doubtful.

I'm not sad at all Eugene, nor are those other two. We just don't agree with your opinions and beliefs, well, not all of them anyway.

Do you think that Americans were always divided as they are now? ...it was like that in the 60s for sure. I guess during WW2 everyone pretty much pulled together, but there were a lot of dissenters then as well.

I'm now wondering what the true America is. Is it a vindictive country, trying to push its power around..military and economic? Or are we still that freedom loving, democracy that we always stated we were? We have so many conflicting values its hard to know.

Maybe I was living in a dream, but I remember somewhere, someplace that people used to talk about uplifting things..about helping each other out in hard times, and good...being neighborly. I don't remember all this talk about turning the middle east into glass...of using our might to destroy countries, all the sabre rattling..in fact I remember we tried not to do that stuff...we abhored Russia for flaunting its military muscle. We agreed to the Geneva
Conventions..and now we condone torture, and pretty much do things unilaterally..ignoring most of the treaties and agreements that were set up after WW2. We're the largest arms dealer in the world...we even arm those we later destroy. Good return on investment, I guess.

Something isn't right...and it isn't just Republicans by any means..its the entire attitude of this country. Its the lack of family values, greed, selfishness, education, healthcare, lack of morals, and on and on. We're turning into lazy do nothings. Apathetic. We need to start squabbling and start working together to get things right. Or is the current situation right? Is what we are doing and have going on now America?
Peddling our jobs overseas? Selling off our country to foreign investors? Is the dollar the only thing that matters?

By FRNash/PHX, AZ (Frnash) on Wednesday, October 29, 2008 - 09:00 pm:

Deb S. (Usedtobeayooper):
"… if we all quit complaining, and actually voted for somebody else, it might catch on."

Ah yes, I did that once; I actually voted for that wacky Texas banty rooster in 1996 (Clinton v. Dole v. Perot), thus I effectively helped elect Bill Clinton. Ye Gods!


"…the Bantam rooster is famous in rural areas throughout the United Kingdom and the United States for its aggressive, "puffed-up" disposition that can be comedic in light of its diminutive stature. It is often called a "Banty" in the rural United States."

David Soumis (Davesou) on Wednesday, October 29, 2008 - 09:46 pm:

Doesn't this guy look presidential?
President Obama

By David Hiltunen (Davidcorrytontn) on Wednesday, October 29, 2008 - 10:08 pm:

Go ahead tell me I am lying. Sorry for the length. Obama is almost as hansome as my Son. See my profile. My wife and her Son.

The stakes of this election are incredibly high, not just for my candidate, John McCain, but for the very existence of the Republican Party.

Am I exaggerating the potential consequences of this election?

Decide for yourself. Consider that Barack Obama has called for the amnesty of all 12 million of the nation’s illegal aliens.

If he sweeps to power with a Democratic Congress, especially with a filibuster-proof Senate, he will be able to put into effect an ambitious liberal agenda — perhaps more bold than FDR’s New Deal and LBJ’s Great Society.

Obama has made his intentions clear, including his intention for amnesty and citizenship for undocumented aliens.

This year, he told the pro-immigrant group La Raza: “Yes, they broke the law. And we should not excuse that. We should require them to pay a fine, learn English, and go to the back of the line for citizenship — behind those who came here legally. But we cannot — and should not — deport 12 million people.”

He added: “That's why we need to offer those who are willing to make amends a pathway to citizenship. That way, we can reconcile our values as both a nation of immigrants and a nation of laws.”

Democrats are anxious to give citizenship as quickly as they can to these illegals. They know these new voters will cast their ballots overwhelmingly for Democratic candidates.

The political balance between Democrats and Republicans has been quite delicate. We saw that in the 2000 and 2004 presidential elections.

In that last election, President Bush was popular, riding the coattails of a great economy and facing an unlikable liberal Democrat from Massachusetts. Still, Bush almost lost. Only 60,000 votes in Ohio separated John Kerry from the White House. The reason, I believe, was the country’s changing demographics.

For Republicans, changing demographics are worrisome. Minorities and immigrants like the idea of a big and benevolent government handing out benefits — the something-for-nothing boondoggles that the Democrats have reveled in since Franklin Roosevelt invented the concept.

If you give amnesty, which really means citizenship, to just 2 million or 3 million of the 12 million illegals here, the electoral map moves dramatically in favor of the Democratic Party. But there will be no reason why Obama and the Democrats won’t push for amnesty and citizenship for all 12 million.

How do I know? Well, he said so. So listen up, Republicans: we are in trouble if Obama is elected with a Democratic Congress.

Today, Texas is an anchor for the GOP nationally. But an Obama amnesty program will put that state solidly into the Democratic column. Florida and other smaller red states like Nevada, Arizona, and New Mexico will become quite blue. Blue states, like California and New York, will get bluer.

The Obama amnesty program also will have grave consequences for Republican representation in the House and the Senate. With so many new immigrants swelling the voter rolls, Democrats could move into a position of not just having a majority in the House and a filibuster-proof Senate, but supermajorities in each.

Both houses of Congress could end up veto proof, if perchance, a Republican were to wiggle into the White House.

With such power and the ability to make even more new citizens and thus new Democratic voters, I wonder how the Republicans will gain a foothold again on the national stage.

Adding to this worry is that Democrats and Obama have openly talked about bringing about the Fairness Doctrine — a new law that will stifle talk radio, the mainstay of opposition media in the country.

No doubt the Democrats know that talk radio stopped Hillary Clinton’s agenda for nationalized healthcare during the '90s.

It is hard to believe the Obama campaign will not want to shut down, once and for all, the Democrats' chief critics.
Christopher Ruddy

By Eugene Zuverink (Zube) on Wednesday, October 29, 2008 - 10:17 pm:

David S If your voting because he LOOKS presidential then you better not vote at all.
As far as Obama tonight for the half hour, it was the same promises he has been saying for the last years that he can't keep , nothing new.
Now what is it 300,000, 250,000, 200,000, or 150,000, do we have to guess. who do we beleive, Obama or Biden

By David Soumis (Davesou) on Wednesday, October 29, 2008 - 10:20 pm:

OK..here's a shocker.
I agree with David H on the amnesty thing for ILLEGALS.
That is one thing I do not stand for. I think all of the ILLEGAL folks should be put on a bus and driven back to where they came from.
The deal where they are doing jobs Americans won't do is full BS in my opinion, especially when there are so many losing their jobs. You have to work somewhere...or I suppose you could just collect unemployment then food stamps.

I don't agree even a little bit with illegals getting education, drivers license, financial help, and all that on my tax dime.

By FRNash/PHX, AZ (Frnash) on Wednesday, October 29, 2008 - 10:28 pm:

David Soumis (Davesou):
"Doesn't this guy look presidential?"

Well if a candidate has no qualifications I guess he can run on appearance! (I hope you know I'm just kidding you, Dave!)

What's scary is the number of voters that vote based on appearance!

David Hiltunen (Davidcorrytontn):
"The stakes of this election are incredibly high … for the very existence of the Republican Party"

I hope I'm wrong, but I'm afraid it's dead, Jim, er … David H. We're just waiting for rigor mortis to set in. (Thank you, George W. Bush! Of all he has done, this would certainly be the most devastating!)

Maybe when all the dust of this election has settled, we can go back and rebuild the Repubican Party in the Barry Goldwater mold, shedding the wacko extreme far right wing evangelical hypocrites in the process!

By David Soumis (Davesou) on Wednesday, October 29, 2008 - 10:29 pm:

the picture was a bit of humor there, Eugene :)

Its really hard to keep any promises from either party when billions of dollars have been given to the banking and mortgage industry, and the rest to war. We will be lucky to be able to drive down the road in 10 years when they are all torn apart and not fixed, let alone worry about giving billions to a healthcare program or anything else.

The tax base is going down with the foreclosures..costs are higher. State and local governments are having a real tough time making budget. Unemployment money is about gone in several states, including Michigan and Wisconsin. I can foresee taxes being raised no matter which person is elected. The money to run the government has to come from somewhere.

By David Soumis (Davesou) on Wednesday, October 29, 2008 - 10:34 pm:

FRNash..no problem :)
Actually, there are surely a lot of voters that vote for someone on appearance...If you recall, they were saying how Fred Thompson looked so "presedential', on TV no less.

Also all the folks that vote on one issue.

I think I could maybe be a republican if it were like Goldwater republicans. But I remember back when he was running, everyone thought he was so right wing. Guess he may have been for the time, but he would almost be a moderate now.

By Deb S. (Usedtobeayooper) on Wednesday, October 29, 2008 - 10:41 pm:

Hey FRNAsh! Are you admitting the fact that Dubya is a "wacko extreme far right wing evengelical hypocrite"?????????

I didn't watch Obama tonight. I had to be at our poling place for election judge training. Who would pay that kind of money to be on TV? I guess we know the answer.

David H, I'm sure you're probably right that a vote for anybody other than one of the 2 candidates would be a vote for McCain this time. Because I think it's the Dem's who aren't pleased with Obama that will vote for somebody else.

And for the record, I liked Clinton. Well, I didn't like EVERYTHING!!!!

By David Soumis (Davesou) on Wednesday, October 29, 2008 - 10:42 pm:

you know, one of my things is to help people. I honestly do not like welfare, unless it is essential for survival. If nothing but being moral and humanitarian, you have to help those that cannot help themselves. You just can't allow them to lay in the street without food and shelter. Its not humanitarian or Christian.
BUT...those that are able to work should work. Perhaps public service would be a good thing for those that can't find a job but can work. Fixing roads, maintaining parks, etc etc..like a job corps. You work for your food stamps...no free ride. The caveat is that these people need to receive a living wage and shelter.

By David Hiltunen (Davidcorrytontn) on Wednesday, October 29, 2008 - 11:14 pm:

This should not come as a shocker. Who in there right mind would not lend a hand to someone that cannot help themselves. Do you know people like that? I sure don't! You don't mean because we are voting for McCain we are anything like that?

Goldwater, my father had a bumper sticker on the Ford that read that in Finn. Help me out here,I do not speak it. E-mail if you will please. Good Nite.

By David Soumis (Davesou) on Wednesday, October 29, 2008 - 11:23 pm:

subject change..i was thinking about taxes.
check this link..it gives the total revenue collected..corporate and individual federal tax.

now for the state of Michigan as example, about $61million was collected in 2007. there are 9 million people in Michigan.
If you divide that out, it comes to about $6.77 per person..man woman and child.

Now that isn't too much to ask anyone, is it? Are those numbers correct? If they are, why do we pay so much in all the time? In my opinion, I would give $10 every year for each of my family...wow $60 / year..even the homeless could afford $10 a year just by collecting change off the street.

By David Soumis (Davesou) on Wednesday, October 29, 2008 - 11:26 pm:

David H ... no, I'm not saying that, other than the fact one of the things republicans want to end is the welfare state. So to me, you need to draw the line and make sure those that actually need assistance are covered. I would assume that would be the case. However, tons of mentally challenged folks have been left out of institutions to fend for themselves.

By Heikki (Heikki) on Thursday, October 30, 2008 - 07:40 am:

Listen to Zo
One of the 5% (supposedly) of Afro-Americans not pulling the handle for Obama.

By Heikki (Heikki) on Thursday, October 30, 2008 - 09:45 am:

"I think I could maybe be a republican if it were like Goldwater republicans. But I remember back when he was running, everyone thought he was so right wing. Guess he may have been for the time, but he would almost be a moderate now."

Interesting comment, Davesou. I voted for LBJ because he said he was against bombing North Vietnam and Goldwater was for it. Well, so much for what politicos say, huh? This is what I can't fathom with Obama supporters. Because of a thin resume, one must go mostly by what he says in order to judge what he may actually do. That dog won't hunt for me. My only viable choice is to pinch my nose and vote for a candidate I rejected in the primaries because he's a RINO. Regarding the illegal immigrant issue, can't see any real difference in practical measures between any candidate. They (illegals) will be granted amnesty and citizenship.....and then there'll be another 'invasion'. As for the shade of political ideology in today's bunch, Obama's off the scale to the left while McCain is a 'yesteryear Democrat' with a 5 degree starboard list.

By Bob Jewell, Farmington Hills (Rjewell) on Thursday, October 30, 2008 - 10:27 am:

The numbers on the spreadsheet are in thousands so add three zeroes to your calculation.

By FRNash/PHX, AZ (Frnash) on Thursday, October 30, 2008 - 12:50 pm:

Heikki (Heikki):

Re "Zo":

Oh darn, where was he when McCain was looking for a VP running mate??

By Eddie Allen (Glocktologist21) on Thursday, October 30, 2008 - 02:57 pm:

***If he sweeps to power with a Democratic Congress, especially with a filibuster-proof Senate, he will be able to put into effect an ambitious liberal agenda — perhaps more bold than FDR’s New Deal and LBJ’s Great Society.***

TRUE!...The only "change" that your going to see is the mere change left in your pocket after B.O. gets done proposing the 3/4 trillion dollar package on all these programs that he supposedly wants to fund...
It doesn't take a rocket scientist to know that the 60's under the LBJ era was among the worst downfalls in U.S. history with their agenda for Viet Nam and frivolous spending and law amendments to social reform making welfare what it is today...
Having B.O. as President alone isn't as scary as it is having him as President "and" our wonderful do-nothing 9% approval rated Congress and screwy Senate that is currently in place at the same time!...Sheesh....

***Democrats are anxious to give citizenship as quickly as they can to these illegals. They know these new voters will cast their ballots overwhelmingly for Democratic candidates.***

TRUE!...More votes...more power...That's the Demoncrat scheme of things...Convincing those who are most vulnerable to their hidden agenda for socialism....

***If you give amnesty, which really means citizenship, to just 2 million or 3 million of the 12 million illegals here, the electoral map moves dramatically in favor of the Democratic Party. But there will be no reason why Obama and the Democrats won’t push for amnesty and citizenship for all 12 million.***

TRUE!...and that electoral map has already changed in the west more than you know!...

***The Obama amnesty program also will have grave consequences for Republican representation in the House and the Senate. With so many new immigrants swelling the voter rolls, Democrats could move into a position of not just having a majority in the House and a filibuster-proof Senate, but super majorities in each.***

TRUE!...B.O. has already came out and said that his appointments in the Supreme court would be for judges who base their rulings on "fairness" as opposed to upholding of the law...So if you are poor or a minority your leverage goes a long way...not trying to throw a racial card, here, but when you consider B.O. is a member of the Black Congressional Caucus, you'll see groups like the ACLU and NAACP come to the forefront...A good example of that was the ruling right before our fantastic Demoncrat driven House and Senate went on Summer vacation when they called for a formal "apology for slavery"...What a waste of our tax dollars at work...There isn't even anyone alive today that could be responsible for slavery...and that's just the beginning....So go ahead and elect this clown B.O. and reelect our wonderful current Demoncrat driven House and Senate and watch the follies begin!

By Snowman (Snowman) on Thursday, October 30, 2008 - 05:34 pm:

Hey Eddie, gonna have some popcorn when you watch the follies? As for me, I think I'm gonna have some smoked caribou with a touch of McCain on the side.

By Eddie Allen (Glocktologist21) on Thursday, October 30, 2008 - 08:16 pm:

Actually Snowman, when the Socialists win next Tuesday I'll be too sick to my stomach to eat....Besides, I'll be in da U.P. far away from the hoopla at that time....

By FRNash/PHX, AZ (Frnash) on Thursday, October 30, 2008 - 08:18 pm:

Eddie Allen (Glocktologist21):
"The only "change" that your going to see is the mere change left in your pocket …"

In that vein, and speaking of redistribution of wealth, penalizing success and confiscatory taxes, can we look forward to the "Good Old Days" (from WWII to 1964) in the great new Obamanation?

History of top Income Tax rates:

In 1913 the tax rate was 1% on taxable net income above $3,000 ($4,000 for married couples), less deductions and exemptions. It rose to a rate of 7% on incomes above $500,000.

During World War I the top rate rose to 77%; after the war, the top rate was scaled down to a low of 25%.

During the Great Depression and World War II, the top income tax rate rose again. In the Internal Revenue Code of 1939, the top rate was 75%. The top rate reached 94% during the war and remained at 91% until 1964!

In 1964 the top rate was decreased to 70% (1964 Revenue Act), then to 50% in 1981 (Economic Recovery Tax Act or ERTA).

The Tax Reform Act of 1986 reduced the top rate to 28%, at the same time raising the bottom rate from 11% to 15% (in fact 15% and 28% became the only two tax brackets).

During the 1990s the top rate rose again, standing at 39.6% by the end of the decade.

The top rate was cut to 35% and the bottom rate was cut to 10% by the Economic Growth and Tax Relief Reconciliation Act of 2001 (EGTRRA).

For purposes of comparison:

The Republicans won control of both houses in the 1946 elections, only to lose them to the Democrats in 1948; with Dwight D. Eisenhower's election to the presidency in 1952, the Republicans again won both houses. However, after the Democratic Party again won back control in the elections of 1954, it was the majority party in both houses of Congress for most of the next 40 years(!); the Republicans were only able to win control of the Senate for a six-year period (1981–87).

The Republicans won a majority position in both houses of Congress in the elections of 1994. The Republicans controlled both houses until 2006, except the Senate for most of 2001 and 2002, when the Democrats had the majority after Jim Jeffords left the Republican Party to become an independent and caucus with the Democrats.

In 2006, the Democratic Party regained control of the House of Representatives, and the results of the Senate elections yielded a Senate makeup of 49 Republicans, 49 Democrats, and two independents.

In the 110th Congress (2007–08), the Democratic voting bloc has a 51-49 majority in the Senate because the two independents, Joseph Lieberman of Connecticut and Bernie Sanders of Vermont, align themselves with the Democratic Party.
Snowman (Snowman) on Friday, October 31, 2008 - 06:06 pm:

Dressed up as John McCain for Halloween tonight and everyone gave me a valium. So I changed costumes and dressed as Sarah and everyone gave me Barbie doll clothes. I finally changed and dressed like Obama and everyone started cooking ribs.

Sorry if I offended anyone, have a great Halloween!

By A. David Archibald (Yooperatheart61) on Friday, October 31, 2008 - 06:14 pm:

The Triumph of Ignorance: How Morons Succeed in U.S. Politics

Hope this works as this is unfortunately very true!

By A. David Archibald (Yooperatheart61) on Friday, October 31, 2008 - 06:16 pm:

Didn't work

By A. David Archibald (Yooperatheart61) on Friday, October 31, 2008 - 06:31 pm:

hope it works this time!!

By FJL (Langoman) on Saturday, November 1, 2008 - 09:58 am:

Snowman: "Ribs,,,Obama,,,,What is the connection???? Puzzeled minds want to know.....FJL

By Deb S. (Usedtobeayooper) on Saturday, November 1, 2008 - 10:38 am:

FJL, I was thinking the same thing. I didn't really find it very funny. Quite offensive, actually, and not just for McCain and Palin.

By Michael Du Long (Mikie) on Saturday, November 1, 2008 - 04:12 pm:

Deb I was thinking the same thing.

By Snowman (Snowman) on Saturday, November 1, 2008 - 05:57 pm:

You guys need to loosen up a bit and try to enjoy life. Should have posted this in the "joke section". See ya!
Didn't seem to bother Mary or Charlie or it would have been deleted.

By David Hiltunen (Davidcorrytontn) on Saturday, November 1, 2008 - 08:18 pm:

Snowman: you need to listen to Archie Bell and do the tighten up. We get cut some slack here but to a certain extent. You was one toke over the line with that comment. Must of been the brewskies talking,but then that is often the case. Case,get it,like a whole case of beer. I crack myself up at times too, Deb.

By Eugene Zuverink (Zube) on Saturday, November 1, 2008 - 10:02 pm:

Snowman, I can see now your on this site just to rub people the wrong way.You SAY your going to vote for Obama,I think your saying that just to keep us all in an uproar, In fact I know someone that knows you, and they said your really voting for McCain, isn't that right Snowman. So your really a Republican, how about that

By Heikki (Heikki) on Sunday, November 2, 2008 - 08:23 am:

Here's something to lighten up on folks. Just think, this joker may be our next VP! LOL

As a side note, Jon Stewart also has a case of 'verbal diarrhea'. Beretta does make shotguns....and mighty fine ones at that. So much for the 'talking heads' of our society, eh?

By David Hiltunen (Davidcorrytontn) on Sunday, November 2, 2008 - 10:15 pm:

OFFICIAL NOTICE: My Post's here on this thread contains thoughts and ideas that are not consistent with or in keeping with the policies and ideas expressed by Barack Obama or the Democrat party. So,you are hereby notified that my thoughts,ideas and facts presented by me constitute hate speech and you are warned that, as such, they may cause discomfort or offense to Democrats,Liberals,those educated by the government, non-achievers, those suffering from wealth-envy and followers of The Chosen One. Govern yourself accordingly.

By Eugene Zuverink (Zube) on Monday, November 3, 2008 - 09:22 am:

That is excellent David, Snowman couldn't have said it better

By David Hiltunen (Davidcorrytontn) on Monday, November 3, 2008 - 09:58 am:

I bowered it from Neal Boortz before anyone has a hizzy. Getting ready for the Big Celebration with Bar-B-Q ribs, and all the fixings, we love chitin's around, but might have brats.

By Russell E. Emmons (Russemmons) on Wednesday, November 5, 2008 - 03:09 am:


God Bless and Help America!

I think John McCains concession speech was very gracious, and honorable. Bless him for that! I always said he at least is more likable then GWB!

By Snowman (Snowman) on Wednesday, November 5, 2008 - 08:14 am:

A lot of people have spoken. :)

By FJL (Langoman) on Wednesday, November 5, 2008 - 08:47 am:

Yes indeed, the Socialists have spoke......FJL

By David Hiltunen (Davidcorrytontn) on Wednesday, November 5, 2008 - 09:34 am:

Yes, the Socialist America People did speak. They were made to like a dog would when you dangle a treat in front of them. They can't get it for themselves and must relay on the good fortune of their owners.

But having said that, I will stand behind the Man, after all he will become our Commander and Chief come January 21, 2009.I wonder how many of the new voters think it begins today? I will praise him when I feel he deserves it, or curse him if I don't. Just as I have any other Leader of the Free World or abroad.

Once Pennsylvania and Ohio went Blue I knew it was over and went to bed.

By Eugene Zuverink (Zube) on Wednesday, November 5, 2008 - 09:45 am:

Now the people have spoken.And now it is Obama and the Democrats turn. Let's see if he Will or can Keep his promises. Did you watch Jesse with his crockadile tears last nite, so sad to see him that way.

By Tom (Tom) on Wednesday, November 5, 2008 - 11:22 am:

As an indication of whether a mandate exists, note that the popular vote was 52% vs 47%. Hardly a mandate of the people. However, we must have some patience to see what the man can accomplish. With the Democrats firmly in control we might have some worries in the future. These are tough times for any president but not as tough as some in the recent past------------such as the late 1970s and early 1980s.

By Heikki (Heikki) on Wednesday, November 5, 2008 - 01:17 pm:

Let's all be supportive of BHO in this historical landmark of American politics.
Remember, our Dem. friends have a long and admirable history for fairness, tolerance, and understanding. Accordingly, I plan to grant BHO the same level of tolerance and understanding given by our Dem. friends to GWB the past 7-8 years.

By FRNash/PHX, AZ (Frnash) on Wednesday, November 5, 2008 - 01:18 pm:

So sad to see so many people, many newly registered by ACORN, who are too young to remember the Cold War years, so angry with GWB that they were willing to shoot themselves in the foot!

But be of good cheer, comrades, we have at long last achieved veto-proof one party rule!

True, the Senate is not yet filibuster-proof, so we will need some patience while the fading remnants of the Республиканский Политический Партия (Respublikanskii Politicheskii Partiya) attempt to delay the implementation of our grand plan by use of the filibuster, but never fear, comrades, over time it will be done! We shall proceed to follow in the glorious path of the former (i.e. failed, defunct … ooops!) Soviet Union!


"The road ahead will be long. Our climb will be steep. We may not get there in one year or even in one term. But, America, I have never been more hopeful than I am tonight that we will get there,” he said. “I promise you: We as a people will get there."

Barak Obama, November 4, 2008

You see, we now have the power, with patience, to eventually abolish the Respublikanskii Partiya, and all other fringe parties, then we can proceed to install comrade Obama as General Secretary of our one party!

Welcome to the new world … The:

Совет Социалистических Штатыы Американский
[The Soviet Socialist States of America]!

Do you like this design for the new flag?

Flag of CCCSA

The new Red White and Blue!
Uncle Chuck @ Little Betsy (Unclechuck) on Wednesday, November 5, 2008 - 02:15 pm:

Sour Grapes perhaps? FINALLY, 8 years of failure is over!

By Cindy Barga (Hoosiergirl) on Wednesday, November 5, 2008 - 02:24 pm:

Well said Uncle Chuck. You are all a bunch of sore losers, and I'm sure if McCain would have won, you would be rubbing it in. Grow up.

By FRNash/PHX, AZ (Frnash) on Wednesday, November 5, 2008 - 02:33 pm:

Uncle Chuck @ Little Betsy (Unclechuck):
"…8 years of failure is over!"

If you think that was failure, you ain't seen nuthin' yet!
Did you forget how socialism worked for the former Soviet Union?


"Those who don't learn from history are doomed to repeat it."

-Jorge Ruiz de Santayana

Uncle Chuck @ Little Betsy (Unclechuck) on Wednesday, November 5, 2008 - 02:56 pm:

FR- since you're into quotes, " If you don't like it leave it, let this song I'm singin be a warning, when you're running down my country man you're walking on the fightin side of me!" The problem with people like you is, if we don't agree with you, were wrong! Wake Up- Get a Grip!
GWB- don't let the door hit you in the ••• on the way out!

Congrats Barack! & Proud to be an American!


By David Hiltunen (Davidcorrytontn) on Wednesday, November 5, 2008 - 03:08 pm:

I wish he Obama would of told us where he will be taking us instead of leaving some of us guessing. He said we may not get there in one year or even one Term, and the road will be steep. I still want to know where there is? I don't think he is even sure where there is yet. It maybe down hill which is why I did not cast my vote for him. Well we won't need affirmative action any more.And if the Democrats can fix things with all the ammunition of power in place then that will be fine with me.Myself, I will wait until the " I told you so,you would not listen" comes about. Then maybe with some of you, that light bulb we was trying to turn on inside of your head will get some juice flowing to it. Like Clinton did, I don't think BHO's campaign will ever end giving him no time to Govern.

By Heikki (Heikki) on Wednesday, November 5, 2008 - 03:10 pm:


Your proposed flag isn't too far off the mark. Was watching FNC this AM and they showed students at the White House fence rejoicing in the coming of their Messiah. Near the end of the video, one student held up a red flag w/hammer and sickle. The commentators were alarmed by this. The video may have been edited by now. If not, I'm pretty sure it'll show up on Utube.com. Perhaps just a foolish student stunt, but coupled with Obama's theme, may also be an indication of political preference.

By FRNash/PHX, AZ (Frnash) on Wednesday, November 5, 2008 - 04:00 pm:

Uncle Chuck @ Little Betsy (Unclechuck):
"The problem with people like you is, if we don't agree with you, were (sic) wrong!"

Now I never said that you were wrong! I was merely addressing the political issue.

I leave the discovery of the "right or wrong" of your personal position to each of you.

By Snowman (Snowman) on Wednesday, November 5, 2008 - 05:48 pm:

Do you people know what is wrong with this forum? It's the fact that if it isn't your way, it's the highway. Open your eyes, this is the future. Stop being so radical, stop being so ignorant. For Pete's sake.
#1) The Indians were here before we were, not
#2) Americans brought the slaves over here,
they had no choice. Immigration?
#3) I have never met so many ignorant, racist
radicals in all my life.

#4) Michigan is a "Blue" state or are you all
color blind?
#5) I sure love the UP but wish some of you
would get the H E Double Hockey Sticks outta
this beautiful place. You're ruining the
scenery, the peace and the tranquility.
#6) Made a few friends on this site and so
thankful for that but, saw the true colors
of the Keweenaw. Didn't see too many pretty
mornings, only the dark of night.
#7) I have seen so many newcomers with hope in
their posts that you "regulars" could answer
their questions. They were totally ignored
as I was because I wasn't in your "clique".
#8) This ain't high school, grow up!

I remain, the "outsider" but I got the
inside on you so called "Yoopers"!

By A. David Archibald (Yooperatheart61) on Wednesday, November 5, 2008 - 05:56 pm:

Well said Cindy Barga and Uncle Chuck

It is funny to me how it seems to a few to be okay to keep giving Public money to the wealthy but it becomes something very evil if you want to give to the less fortunate among else. If anyone other then a right winger had posted that Flag oh how evil that would have been said to be. This election was made possible by GWB having been such wonderful, caring human being, NOT, NOT, NOT. What GWB is is a war monger, who has no respect for the constitution or anything other than the wealthy corporations and Wall Street in general.

By Eugene Zuverink (Zube) on Wednesday, November 5, 2008 - 07:01 pm:

Hey Snowman Michigan isn't a "BLUE" state.
Michigan is a "GREEN" state

By David Hiltunen (Davidcorrytontn) on Wednesday, November 5, 2008 - 08:35 pm:

This was not an election where the American voters were looking for someone to protect their freedoms. Instead, it was an election where people were looking for someone to take care of them. Self-sufficiency seems a bit old-fashioned right now. Why work so hard to be self-sufficient when candidates are falling all over themselves to provide the American people with cradle-to-grave paternalism. The voters who put Barack Obama into office bear little resemblance to the people who fought for independence 224 years ago. Colonists fighting for our independence actually left their bloody footprints along the icy roads of New York and Pennsylvania while marching to engage the British troops. Today we can't even march to a drum beat of a decent plurality of voters who will vote for liberty, let alone fight for it. Is this what we have to look forward to? Is this going to be the Change Obama means?

The end of the secret ballot in union elections
A return of the Fairness Doctrine
A tax code punishing the wealthy, businesses, entrepreneurs, achievers
More federal government in government schools
Universal healthcare
Cap-and-trade policies on coal (no nuclear power, no drilling)
Supreme Court justices who favor a vaporous idea of fairness over the Constitution
The security of our nation and our allies, particularly Israel

So now it's all up to the Democrats It is their turn to prove that they can somehow tax the achievers, increase spending programs and still get federal spending under control. Isn't that what the people want? Change? Oh, that's right. The people forgot to ask what exactly we were going to be changing to.

Right now we are at the point where about 43% of American income earners pay absolutely NO income tax. It has been my fear along with many that if the Democrats ever gain absolute control in Washington we're going to see that percentage climb to over 50%. That's the tipping point. Imagine a campaign where the majority of voters actually get a check from the government instead of writing a check to the government.

Will these be the Democrat campaign themes for the next several presidential elections?

2012: "Vote for the Republicans and they're going to make you pay income taxes."

2016: "Vote for the Republicans and they're going to make you pay your own Social Security and Medicare taxes."

2020: "Vote for the Republicans and they're going to make you pay for your own health care."

2024: "Vote for the Republicans and they're going to make you pay for your own place to live."

You voted for socialism, whether you know what it is or not. Whether you know the definition of the word "socialism" or not, you have to understand the concept. There are 47 million Americans who do not pay taxes of any kind. At least for now.The Bolsheviks and Marxists, Leninists, and Stalinists were told that,they're not going understand.They may not even understand socialism, and if they do understand it, they think it's a good thing because they were taught that it's a good thing in school. There's always going to be a certain percentage of people who want something for nothing. We've came a long way from JFK in 1960 who said, "Ask not what your country can do for you, ask what you can do for your country.'"
That was 1960. Here today in 2008, it's now, "Ask not what your country can do for you,demand what your country can do for you, and that my friend's is who voted for Obama.

Do not pick on us fellow Yoopers. Do you think it was easy for the many of us who left the land we grew up on. A lot of young men and women such as myself realized there was little hope of chasing after the America dream while living in God's Country from scratch. There was no industry to go to work for after High School. No automobile factories, no computer factories. I was 18 years old in 1969. I got on the Blue Goose and went to Detroit. And belive me I grew up faster in one year then the 18 spent in Dollar Bay. Went to work for Burroughs starting pay was $ 6.18 an hour. I made over $ 20,000 my first year, 1969. Wow eh? What incentive is there today for 18 year olds no matter where you are from to go to work when close to half will be taken away before you have a chance to see it?

By David Soumis (Davesou) on Wednesday, November 5, 2008 - 09:01 pm:

shows how far we've gotten in 40 years. My wife made $18,600 last year. That's progress for ya, and she works full time.

I'm thinking most people voted for compassion, understanding, diplomacy, a chance, a change.

in a way I wish the Republicans would have won, because now that the country is up to its armpits, the dems are going to be blamed when they can't pull us out of the tailspin.

Did you see how people in foreign lands were cheering when Obama won? Its not because they think we're going to be a socialist country, its because they believe there will be someone in office that actually cares. Someone willing to talk, someone willing to try and achieve the ideals we talk about instead of stomping on them and wielding our military might to coeherce people.

Did you see the reaction by McCain's followers during his concession speech. Booing. McCain had to stop them. Ill willed people. Tunnelvision. I call them unpatriotic. We have a country where everyone is supposed to have a chance. To be heard without malice. Start acting like Americans

By David Hiltunen (Davidcorrytontn) on Wednesday, November 5, 2008 - 09:42 pm:

Would that be spoiled rich Americans we should start acting like?
I belive we talked to Sadam enough. Each time he said ok I will just leave me in power please, and went on to do what he wanted anyway. We don't know what other kind of things he would have gone on to do now do we? He may of went on to use a WMD on your home town. It is a good thing we did not have to find out, by taking him out. GWB had the nerve to do the right thing, talking did not work. Enough was enough.

By Uncle Chuck @ Little Betsy (Unclechuck) on Wednesday, November 5, 2008 - 09:54 pm:

Snowman & A. David, I'm with ya! Gene/Zube, I gotta find a way to Say Go Green since my son will be there in the Fall, but it's hard since I went to NMU and you now have our Hockey Coach, C'mon folks, let's make it work!


By FRNash/PHX, AZ (Frnash) on Wednesday, November 5, 2008 - 11:00 pm:

David Soumis (Davesou):
"I'm thinking most people voted for compassion, understanding, diplomacy, a chance, a change."

I have to agree there, David, except I must add: "without having a clue as to what kind of change, as long as it wasn't George W. Bush!"

"Did you see how people in foreign lands were cheering when Obama won?"
Yes, and who was among the first of 'em, none less than Venezuela's Hugo Rafael Chávez Frías!
But of course … "Its not because they think we're going to be a socialist country!" <grin>

Oh surely you noticed, Russia has already issued the first "test", as predicted … no, promised by Sen. Biden: New York Times, November 5, 2008: Russia Warns of Missile Deployment


"President Dmitri A. Medvedev of Russia greeted his future American counterpart, Senator Barack Obama, with bristling language on Wednesday, promising to place short-range missiles on Russia’s western border …"

David Soumis (Davesou) on Wednesday, November 5, 2008 - 11:19 pm:

its going to be a tough time. It would have been for McCain, and it will be for Obama.

Hugo Rafael Chávez As the leader of the Bolivarian Revolution, Chávez promotes a political doctrine of democratic socialism and Latin American integration. He is also a critic of neoliberalism, globalization, and United States foreign policy.

Chávez was elected President in 1998 with a campaign centering on promises of aiding Venezuela's poor majority, and was reelected in 2000 and in 2006. Domestically, Chávez has maintained nation wide Bolivarian Missions, whose goals are to combat disease, illiteracy, malnutrition, poverty, and other social ills. Abroad, Chávez has acted against the Washington Consensus by supporting alternative models of economic development, and has advocated cooperation among the world's poor nations, especially those in Latin America.

The above from Wikipedia

Why is Chavez a thorn in the side of the US Government? He doesn't bend to our imperialistic demands. I don;t remember where I read this, but wherever it was it was stated that a part of the US foreign policy is to keep 3rd world nations poor so we can exploit their labor and resources.
For what its worth.

By Sandy G (Artessss) on Thursday, November 6, 2008 - 01:44 am:

Russia has been trying to get those missles placed ever since they found out we wanted our army stationed there. It has not been a recent event.

I doubt a whole lot can be done this term no matter who won. Goodness, the mess created the last 8 years will take 'all of us' to make any kind of change not just our leader, whoever leads America.

Don't forget to pray for our leaders, all of them!

By Michael Du Long (Mikie) on Thursday, November 6, 2008 - 03:39 am:

Once again I find Snowmans post to be trite and insulting. If we are so bad on this site then why do you still come to it. Your right this isn't high school so stop acting like the kid who had no friends. I was disappointed in the election results. Once before I was also sad about a president. His name was Richard Nixon. Even though his presidency was a disaster, I lived better and was prosperous, more so then during any of the other presidents terms. We moved out of the UP when the mines closed. My dad went to work at Chrysler and I followed him. Now people are blaming Bush for everything, not giving credit to the rest of the government. The Dems. controlled the House and the senate for the last few years and have not done anything to stop the down spin of the economy. As far as the war being a Republican war, who was the president when WWI, WW2, Korea, Vietnam pretty sure that they were all Democrats. Historically the Democrats were the war mongers. Did you guys slip Bush in under the guise of being a Republican? Oh well the pain pills are starting to work and maybe I will be able to get to sleep.

By jbuck (Jbuck) on Thursday, November 6, 2008 - 06:50 am:

Well said Mikie.

By Heikki (Heikki) on Thursday, November 6, 2008 - 07:59 am:

Good post, Mikie. When people resort to name-calling it's a sign they've run out of ideas. None of our financial ills happened overnight, but is the result of long-term (much greater than 8 years) policies that were shortsighted. We now have an economic system inextricably intertwined with national and global politics. Like it or not, workers today have to be far more versatile than we older folks. Higher education, in any form, is the key. What really frightens me for the future of our country is the high school dropout rate in many parts of the U.S. In that respect, I agree with Obama in reversing that trend with whatever it takes. That's not saying other presidents didn't care, but trying new methods of motivation are needed. Perhaps Obama's term (if he governs from the center) will be more effective as a symbol of success and encourage a love of learning in those youngsters who easily fall by the wayside.

By Deb S. (Usedtobeayooper) on Thursday, November 6, 2008 - 08:20 am:

WOW! A lot has gone on here since I last visited! I worked at the polls on election day and was busy all day yesterday. We have a new President. I am a Democrat at heart (actually a moderate, but there are only 2 ways to lean in this country so I'll take Dems over Reps). This is the first time in my life that I haven't wanted the Democrat who was running to win. But he did, as I think we all knew he would, because of the mess that GWB made while in office. And you can't blame the Dem. congress because it was well on its way long before they took over the majority. Things can't be turned around just like that, especially when you're up against a Republican president who thinks things have to be his way or the highway. There were only 2 other presidents that I have ever disliked NEARLY as much as this one and they were LBJ and Nixon.

Mikie I totally agree with you on what Snowman said. Stay away if you find it to be so offensive. If we don't agree with what he says, he gets very insulting. It's disappointing to think that you can't come to this site and just state your opinions without being insulted for them. Being from the UP doesn't make us stupid. Just like other parts of the country, some of us are for the Reps and some of us are for the Dems. We all have our own opinions and we all should be welcome to them. I don't like being put down for them.

I felt very badly for McCain, as I think he really loves his country, much more so than Obama does. I don't see that love for this country in him that I see in a lot of the people who were running. However, he's our president now, and until he should do something that isn't in the best interests of this country, I will support him. I hope and pray that he can get us out of this horrible hole we're in. I am very happy that the Dems have control. I hope they use it wisely. The best years of my adult life were when Clinton was in office. I hope we'll get that back, but it won't happen over night. I don't know that McCain would have followed Bush's ideas, but I know that Obama won't. I always liked him until we started finding out who his friends were, and some of the other things about him. I pray he proves us all wrong and does the right thing for this country. I do not care about the color of his skin. It shows how far our country has come. Go Barack! Do this country proud.

God Bless America!!!!!

By Gustaf O. Linja (Gusso) on Thursday, November 6, 2008 - 08:56 am:

Is there a difference between loving one's country and loving the people who live in one's country????

By David Hiltunen (Davidcorrytontn) on Thursday, November 6, 2008 - 09:30 am:

Yes, God Bless America and we know the U.P. has been blessed from the beginning!

This post is to correct myself from my post above where I stated I made $20,000 in 1969. It was a typo and I meant it to be $10,000 I don't credit the man in office for my success any year, nor would I blame him if I would have had any failures. The rich today I fear will begin to fail with loss of income, so must find ways to put assets up the road long term where it can't be taken away, or invest in land. But then who knows, the tax man may come along and say,"Oh you have 500 Acers, we will only take 150 of them." I think a much larger Tea Party is in store with many more guest's then the last one.

By Deb S. (Usedtobeayooper) on Thursday, November 6, 2008 - 09:39 am:

No, there's really no difference. But he will have to prove to me that he does love the people in this country. And I do mean ALL the people. We will see what happens after his inauguration. I do hope he surrounds himself with some really good people. Maybe he could try to unify the 2 sides by having both Dems and Reps around him.

By David Hiltunen (Davidcorrytontn) on Thursday, November 6, 2008 - 09:49 am:

Just like GWB did, No olive branch will be extended, and I will not blame him, Deb.

WASHINGTON (Nov. 6) – While President-elect Barack Obama enjoyed a few days with his family after a hard-fought election, speculation swirled in the nation's capital around potential administration appointees.
Obama pivoted quickly to begin filling out his team on Wednesday, selecting hard-charging Illinois Rep. Rahm Emanuel as White House chief of staff while aides stepped up the pace of transition work that had been cloaked in pre-election secrecy.

By Gustaf O. Linja (Gusso) on Thursday, November 6, 2008 - 09:49 am:

How about; the next election, combine both Reps & Dems one President and one Vice President???
I suspect this would confuse many people though, however then a person would be able to vote for the person rather than party.

By Heikki (Heikki) on Thursday, November 6, 2008 - 09:56 am:

It usually takes as long to get out of a hole as it takes to get in it, Deb. Reversing a national trend is akin to stopping/reversing a train. I doubt 4 yrs will do it, but if the right groundwork is laid, we may see an improvement. That's why it's important for Obama to govern from the center. To do otherwise will deepen the divide in this country in many respects, and even set back race relations for decades. It is still a racial tinderbox in many areas. All it would take is a clear sign Obama's agenda is about power rather than equality and it would be ignited. That's why it's important to know as much about a candidate as possible. What they 'say' doesn't really measure up to the need for assessing their loyalty and worthiness for the job. We must be watchful.

As for GWB, don't judge the man too harshly. Ever since 9/11 his plate has been overflowing which was further made difficult with natural disasters such as Katrina, etc. One must remember WJC let several terrorist hotspots fester which GWB inherited. I'm happy we haven't been hit since, although I've disagreed with some of his policies along the way. People with easy jobs will most always appear competent. When one ''straps on' a job like the U.S. presidency, that's another matter. Not only are problems inherited from previous administrations, but the "other side" (enemy) have a lot to do with desired results. One much consider the conditions under which a person works when passing judgment on their effectiveness.

By A. David Archibald (Yooperatheart61) on Thursday, November 6, 2008 - 11:51 am:

Dave Soumis: Well said about Venezuela.
Any leader should look after their own people over corporate interests. people on this site are still buying all that H---- P----- being tossed around by our neo-cons. If I were being threaded by anybody the way Russia is, I would be placing what ever I had to protect myself against a country that has a track record of "Naked Aggression" ie: USA, as for GWB, it will be great finally having somebody-anybody that doesn't embarrass himself and his country every time he opens his mouth. I didn't prejudge GWB(the past 7-8 years have earned him my contempt) the way BHO is being on this web site by self promoted patriots. A lot of you seem to think that all the right-wing hate radio programs(Rush,O'Reilly,Hannity, Savage, etc) are okay, yet you say you have no hate yourself. You very quickly condemned BHO because of some of his associations, therefore you need to condemn yourselves as hate mongers. If you don't a double standard seems to be okay for some Patriots but not for others.

By Snowman (Snowman) on Thursday, November 6, 2008 - 12:48 pm:

A. David Archibald, should have opined like you did. I let my feathers get ruffled and exploded. I stood behind Barack from day one and disregarded the cheap bashings. You vote for a presidential candidate because of his true experience and true qualities. Looks like a lot of people still believe the ridiculous propaganda. Must be the lack of adapting to change.

By Tom (Tom) on Thursday, November 6, 2008 - 12:50 pm:

Note that at the present (and that is the time we are living in) our economy is nothing like it was when Reagan took office. There were plant closing and much larger layoffs than today. Unemployment was at 10% or better and we had inflation at the same time. It was labeled "stagflation."
Using fiscal policy as a stimulus does nothing unless that policy impacts something not currently being spent on in the economy. And it will increase the debt and/or taxes. Monetary policy on the other hand does not cost the taxpayer via taxes. Money becomes available through the Fed bank and those who want/need the money borrow. That leads to a stronger stimulus.
Unfortunately at this time we have a huge deficit that is being financed in large part by countries like China. If we go the path of fiscal policy where will the money come from? As I said, more debt or higher taxes.
A comment on Venezuela --- as a professor friend of mine from that country told me, poverty is 70% and Chavez has done nothing to change that. Yet the nationalized oil industry in that country is bringing in billions of dollars per year. What does his government do with that money? Perhaps Chavez is salting it away in one of those Swiss banks in a numbered account?

By A. David Archibald (Yooperatheart61) on Thursday, November 6, 2008 - 01:48 pm:

Interesting post:
It is very definitely the views of the educated class. They rarely are for any change to benefit the poor so they side with any existing government that benefits them and that colors their observations. I read and watched a lot of material from neutral sites that say just the opposite as they have nothing at stake. It's strikes me as a little bias by university educated people even in this country. I have such a prejudice in my own extended family, It is very real not imagined as spoken in plain ordinary english. (I'm not suggesting all educated people have this bias) but I personally have been a victim of it right here in the "Good Old US of A."
any denial of this bias is just an out and out lie.

By David Soumis (Davesou) on Thursday, November 6, 2008 - 06:31 pm:

481,000 NEW unemployment claims week of Nov 1
stocks fall below 9000 .. nearly 900 point drop in 2 days.

Mr Obama and the dems are going to have a rough ride.

A lot of people are blaming Bush and the Republicans on what is happening with the economy, but as someone stated above, this has been a long time in the works. It started more in the Reagan era. That trickle down theory. I've felt it really got going around 1996. Something happened, something changed. companies started to really cut staff. Pay raises dwindled, benefit prices began to rise. Companies discontinued pensions, etc etc. outsourcing, moving businesses overseas.

Of course most of us contributed. Spending too much, greed, gotta have it all, too much credit, buying the Mcmansions.

Now Mr. Obama and the dems have to do something about it all. Yea right!
And if they fail, everyone will be blaming them. Great job.

By Snowman (Snowman) on Thursday, November 6, 2008 - 06:45 pm:

David, it's called "give it all to China". We got sold "down the river" by big business.

By David Hiltunen (Davidcorrytontn) on Thursday, November 6, 2008 - 08:02 pm:

Zero consumers debt is such a wonderful feeling!

By Russell E. Emmons (Russemmons) on Thursday, November 6, 2008 - 08:46 pm:

Mikie with all due respect of your post, we (USA) did not start WW1, WW2, Korean War, or the Vietnam War. We were not the aggressor nor were we attacked except later in WW2 by Japan at Pearl Harbor and Nazi Germany declared war ON US a few days later. Japan attacked us to neutralize our Pacific Fleet so they could unhampered occupy the Dutch East Indies (Holland our allie)for the oil (Shell Oil Co.!)they needed in their war with China. Those wars had overseas belligerents at odds with each other for various reasons in the beginning. We were drawn in or jumped in later to support our allies and/or in the case of Korea, & Viet Nam to "suppress the spread of communism". VietNam was at the time originally know as French Indo-China and the French couldn't hold back the onslaught of the VietNamese communists on its colonys whereupon we and a few European Allies moved into help, and the rest is history.
BTW: Finland which was essentially neutral in WW2 aligned itself with Germany---anything for an advantage against the continous threat from the giant Russian Boot! I see this as the significant reason to this day of the fear/obsession of Socialism/Communism implanted on the past few generations of Finnish Americans particularly in the UP handed down to them from their old country parents and grandparents.
Interestingly now Finland like Sweden, Denmark, and a few others, (I think the Czech Republic?) is a SOCIALIST Democratic Republic! The President of Finland, Tarja Halonen spoke this year July 25 at the annual "Finn Fest" in Duluth MN. She explained how her country has no national Debt, Very little crime, corruption, illiteracy and all can get a scholarship if they want. I don't think there was anything posted on this website regards the "Finn Fest" this year or I missed it?

By Michael Du Long (Mikie) on Thursday, November 6, 2008 - 10:25 pm:

Russ, I was commenting on the fact that the Democrat Presidents were in when these wars were declared. You can't disagree with me about that. Not even the re writers of history are able to change who the President was during the wars of the last century. Wilson WWI, Roosevelt WWII, Truman Korea, Kennedy/Johnson Vietnam. All were Democrats. Personally I think Give them **** Harry was the best President we have had. Times were good the country was prosperous and you could afford a car and a house. You didn't have to work several jobs along with your spouse in order to have the American Dream. That ended with the recession under Ike. Before Ike mom could stay home with the kids. Ain't that way any more, is it? One nice thing about being an Independent is I can complain about both parties. Alas, I have forgotten why I started this posting, and you all have to suffer with my ramblings.

By Heikki (Heikki) on Thursday, November 6, 2008 - 10:54 pm:

As Joe Biden might say, three words can sum up why many jobs in the U.S. have gone overseas: Global economy. It isn't that manufacturers don't want to stay in the U.S.. It's because they can't and remain solvent. Remember before China arrived on the scene? Japan, and later Korea, were flooding our markets with high quality low-priced merchandise. We were beginning to feel the pinch back then in certain industries....electronics, especially. Now, with the humongous industry of China, we're really sucking swamp water. It isn't trickle down economics that is the culprit as much as our difficulty adapting to relatively quick changing conditions. Finland went through a deep recession in the 1990's after they lost a major trading partner in the USSR. They retrained much of their workforce and went into manufacturing cell phones (Nokia) and other industries better suited to available markets. Just one problem with that model, though. Finland's economy is a microcosm compared to the U.S. They also benefit from a homogenous populace. Sometimes smaller is better, eh?

By Russell E. Emmons (Russemmons) on Thursday, November 6, 2008 - 10:56 pm:

Mikie: Certainly can't disagree who the Presidents were then. Never meant to. I knew which ones were. My point was and still is that Our country and its presidents whoever they were or which party didn't start those wars. That's the way our country has always been. (until GWB and company came along)

By Russell E. Emmons (Russemmons) on Thursday, November 6, 2008 - 11:06 pm:

And yes Mikie, Harry was a good down to earth guy.
Ike was a good man too. He warned us of the "Military Industrial Complex" which seems to have indeed come about!

By Michael Du Long (Mikie) on Thursday, November 6, 2008 - 11:50 pm:

Russ, I am not a fan of Bush. But the rest of the government IE the House and the Senate are to blame for this war also. With out their consent he would not have been able to extend the war as far as it has gone. The House and Senate have had opportunities to reign him in and have failed to do it. I hold the entire government to blame for this war, not just one man. I hope that Obama will be able to end this war and return our men home. Personally I would take the Army and guard our borders against the influx of aliens. I just hope it isn't too late to save our manufacturing base. Not everyone is cut out to be a college graduate. When I was a kid a person working at the A&P could afford to have an auto, and to live in a home of his own. Now the working poor don't have the same opportunities that were available in the last century. Like many other people I have just lately had my insurance co pays doubled. No warning just got billed from the company that supplies me with my medicine. People should think twice before buying foreign products. If it is made here support the company that is employing you, and your neighbors. We need to rebuild our manufacturing base. I have friends who are trying to find work who have been retired for many years. It is hard for someone in their fifties to find a job, just think how hard it is to try to find something in your late sixties and seventies. They have outlived their savings and SSI isn't enough to live on. When I was a kid my grandmother lived with us. She didn't have enough coming in to live on. That was the norm, and it looks like we are going to have the elders living with their children just like the good old days. My son jokes about us living in his basement, but it might become our way of life. Not the way I want to live. My house has lost worth to the tune of $100,000 in the last year. Yet what has the House and Senate done for us? It has given money to the people who put us in the economy that we now have. Have I rambled enough yet?

By David Soumis (Davesou) on Friday, November 7, 2008 - 07:16 am:

Mikie...this is one of the truist statements I have seen on this site for a long time. Hit the nail directly on the head.
If it were possible, I would have voted out probably at least 80% of the people in the House and Senate.
That is why I'm an independent, and in my mind, I think we need to create a viable 3td party that would not be beholding to all the big companies and groups. Vote the incumbant do nothings but pander to special interests and corporations, OUT.

its time for the American people to rise up and do something. It tells you to do that in the Constitution. Its time.

I'm trying to be optimistic right now with a new president coming in, a majority to work with...but in reality, will they do anything good for America. We've been going down this path since WW2 actually. It hasn't happened overnight, nor with Bush. He was just manifest of what we have become. The entire country is dumbed down, full of greed, void of common sense, self rightious, selfish, and resting on our laurels, which have evaporated.

By Eugene Zuverink (Zube) on Friday, November 7, 2008 - 11:16 am:

Everyone has to check out "THE FLYINGFINNS" profile, it's a good one, you can see what he is going to have for Thanksgiving.
He looks like he is real serious, made me laugh

By FRNash/PHX, AZ (Frnash) on Friday, November 7, 2008 - 12:03 pm:

Russell E. Emmons (Russemmons):

1. Re Finland's alignment with Germany in WW2, against the continuous threat from the giant Russian Boot:

Yes indeed, how's that for a difficult choice?

Lest any unknowledgeable newcomers misunderstand that delicate "arrangement", see Military history of Finland during World War II. It was clearly a difficult, but ultimately wise decision. As noted in the above article:


"[Finland] was the only country which fought successfully against both sides under the same leadership. It was the only European country which bordered the Soviet Union in 1939 and was still unoccupied in 1945. Of all the European countries fighting in World War II, only three European capitals were never occupied: Moscow, London and Helsinki. It was a country which sided with Germany, but in which native Jews and almost all refugees were safe from persecution. It was the only co-belligerent of Nazi Germany which maintained democracy throughout the war. It was also the only belligerent in mainland Europe to do so."

It should be no surprise that I'm well aware of, and proud of Finland's valiant David & Goliath confrontation with the Soviet Union during the Winter War and beyond. Talk about SISU!

"2. I see this as the significant reason to this day of the fear/obsession of Socialism/Communism implanted on the past few generations of Finnish Americans particularly in the UP handed down to them from their old country parents and grandparents."

Now that is an interesting and thought provoking analysis!

Yet there was no shortage of Finnish-american communists in the USA, in the early days. Surely there is no more conspicuous example than Arvo Gustav Halberg, a.k.a. Gus Hall.

There were likewise a non-trivial number of Finnish-American communists in the UP. All of which remains an inscrutable, impenetrable mystery to me, given Finland's historical experience with the Russian bear!

3. "Harry [Truman] was a good down to earth guy."

He was the first president I was consciously aware of in my youth, and I'll have to agree with that. (I always thought he was the spittin' image of my maternal grandfather, too!)
Russell E. Emmons (Russemmons) on Saturday, November 8, 2008 - 01:40 am:

Davidsou: From the Declaration of Independence:
(hope I got these words correct):

"But with a long train of abuses and ursurpations, pursuing invariably the same object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government and to provide new guards for their future security."

By Russell E. Emmons (Russemmons) on Saturday, November 8, 2008 - 02:39 am:

FR Nash: From an article in the Detroit News Magazine August 30,1981. titled "The Proud Finns"
Text & photos by PETER OIKARINEN, Calumet MI.
From page 11 Oikarinen is interviewing 91 year old Vaino Erkkila----"Also unlike other Finns I'd met he had not come from a poor family. His family had owned "about five 40s of land" on their farm in Torino near the Swedish border. Vaino left this security for "political purposes" in 1910.------Later----he worked 4 punishing months in the mines----he quickly abandoned the mine. By 1917 he was installing furnaces for $4.05 a day. That same year he quit a socialist organization in Hancock "because they joined the international communists" Enough Finns did join so that by 1923 nearly 45 percent of the total U. S. Communist Party were Finns-----In those early years 25 percent of the Finnish-American population were considered "Red Finns" and 30 percent were "Church Finns". The rest had no strong ties" unquote!

When I was a young lad in the Copper Country in the 40s and early 50s I remember well my Uncles, my Grandfather (born in Finland) and his old country buddys sitting around claiming so & so down this road or that road or that store owner, or that foreman etc. was a communist or socialist. This would go on day after day! I often wondered how in those very days of McCarthyism how there was not more made of it all!

By FRNash/PHX, AZ (Frnash) on Saturday, November 8, 2008 - 12:23 pm:

Russell E. Emmons (Russemmons):

Now that was quite an educational article!

"Vaino Erkkila … unlike other Finns … had not come from a poor family. His family had owned "about five 40s of land" on their farm in Torino…

In those early years 25 percent of the Finnish-American population were considered "Red Finns" and 30 percent were "Church Finns"."

I'm beginning to get the picture:

Erkkila's family were evidently what our latter day "Robin Hood" would call the "rich", whose "vast wealth" must be confiscated and "redistributed" to the "other 25 percent"!

I think that clearly explains the difference between the early years "Church Finns" and "Red Finns" in the UP!

P.S.: An interesting coincidence: My maternal grandfather, though not such a "rich" farmer, was (like Erkkila) also from Tornio, and arrived in the US in 1908!
Russell E. Emmons (Russemmons) on Saturday, November 8, 2008 - 03:31 pm:

FrNash: Can't forget the other 45 percent that had "no strong ties" of which Vaino Erkkila in 1981 was an "individual member of no group" unquote

No where in this article is mentioned about "confisticating wealth" etc. That point or interpretation was yours. I don't believe the authors intentions were anyway in that mode or direction. I believe I've seen Oikarinen mentioned before on this website, maybe seen postings of his?
Torino as in the Ford car named for the place in Italy rather then Tornio was Oikarinens' or the Detroit News typo not mine.

FrNash you are just too much, no one can keep up with your superior intellect! !

By FRNash/PHX, AZ (Frnash) on Saturday, November 8, 2008 - 04:09 pm:

(see below)

By FRNash/PHX, AZ (Frnash) on Saturday, November 8, 2008 - 04:25 pm:

Russell E. Emmons (Russemmons):
"No where in this article is mentioned about "confisticating (sic) wealth" etc. That point or interpretation was yours."

Oh you are quite right, Russ. I certainly didn't get that from the article.

That was my own deliberate "evil" attempt to relate my perception of the relative economic conditions of the "Church Finns" and "Red Finns" of the article to the avowed plans (and perhaps the motivations!) of our (latter day "Robin Hood") President-elect to "redistribute the wealth"! (This is, after all, still the Political discussion thread!)

"…no one can keep up with your superior intellect!"

I make no pretense of having anything resembling "superior intellect" … although I might possibly acknowledge a bit of environmentally influenced "[Lake] Superior intellect"!


By Heikki (Heikki) on Saturday, November 8, 2008 - 05:37 pm:


Strange malady affects thousands in post-2008 election period. No known cure.

By David Soumis (Davesou) on Saturday, November 8, 2008 - 05:51 pm:

I have that malady too...
someone told me it was called JOY.
No more political commercials.

By Daveofmohawk (Daveofmohawk) on Sunday, November 16, 2008 - 06:42 pm:

I am not a socialist but at the same time I do believe that something has to be done. The middle class is rapidly becoming eliminated by the greed of a small percentage of extremely wealthy people. The masses of people in our country are falling into poverty in record numbers. If we are not careful we will end up like Mexico. They are an oil-rich, wealthy nation. The problem is that all of the wealth is controlled by about 2% of the population and the other 98% live in extreme poverty. I'm 57 yrs. old and have followed politics pretty closely all of my life and it seems to me that everything that the Republicans have ever done has taken something away from the poor and the middle class and given to the very wealthy.

By Matt Karhu (Matt_k) on Wednesday, November 19, 2008 - 08:42 am:

This morning, while reading the comments posted since November 4, I wondered who of you (who posted the comments) are long-time registered voters and if you voted on November 4. I also wonder how much voters in the U.S. are to blame for who gets nominated as a candidate for president.

By Eugene Zuverink (Zube) on Wednesday, November 19, 2008 - 11:39 am:

Daveofmohawk, you can not just say that
"everything that the Republicans have ever done has taken something away from the poor and the middle class and given to the very wealthy"
I have to call you on that one. Can you tell us what you mean by "Everything" Will you name a couple of things. I'm interested in why it's JUST the Republicans. Tell us.

By David Hiltunen (Davidcorrytontn) on Wednesday, November 19, 2008 - 02:48 pm:

One thing the Democrat Party is very good at is causing many of the problems we have today and then turn it around and make it look, and so very well done, that the Republicans are to blame for the way things are. I guess by telling lies over and over some how they become real. Republicans are rotten at this game, quit and just take their ball an go home, if they even have a ball.

By Eugene Zuverink (Zube) on Wednesday, November 19, 2008 - 06:27 pm:

Come on Daveofmohawk, you can't just run someone down, if you can't back it up.,and don't start looking thru your history book for something, when you say something like that,you should be able to back it up right away.Just like David said, the Democrats are very good at this stuff. They have been at it for the last seven years.
Start picken on Chris Dodd and Barney Franks, If they were running the ship the way they should have we wouldn't be in some of the shape were in now.

By Deb S. (Usedtobeayooper) on Thursday, November 20, 2008 - 08:47 am:

Daveofmohawk was very right. That is definitely what the Republicans are known for. It seems that nobody here is ever going to agree. The Republicans will continue to blame the Democrats and vice versa. And we all believe we're right in our beliefs. But the Democrats are known to stand up for the little guy much more than the Republicans. And I know that THAT is where I stand. I am not rich, therefore not much of what the Republicans do benefits me. There are those that are neither far left nor far right. These are the guys and gals who should be holding offices.

By FJL (Langoman) on Thursday, November 20, 2008 - 09:27 am:

What are the Democrats doing for the "LITTLE" guy and how far down on the economic scale is "LITTLE"........?

By David Hiltunen (Davidcorrytontn) on Thursday, November 20, 2008 - 10:52 am:

I am only speaking for myself. I do not need to be told by conservative talk radio hosts. And I belive it is not a belief system. Unlike your religion where you need faith, your politics should and can be found in a fact finding mission. People need to stop thinking what can government do for me, and start thinking what is good for the country. Example.. It was said that this is the worst times since the great depression. Some took that repeated it and it spread like wildfire. When the truth really was.... it is the worst time since Jimmy Carter.

By Heikki (Heikki) on Thursday, November 20, 2008 - 02:22 pm:

You're so correct, David H. I remember those years well.....and I voted for the peanut farmer! Had a family to support....inflation running wild...interest rates sky high (20+% I believe)....a degraded and demoralized military...the rise of Ayatollah Khomeini. But of course, Carter wasn't directly responsible for all our ills. He inherited some just as every president does.....especially economic trends. The reason I thought less of him in later years was because of his desire to conduct foreign policy from a position of weakness. However, we managed to muddle through those years just as we'll deal with the current set of circumstances. Just have to beware government doesn't take over our industries.

By Snowman (Snowman) on Thursday, November 20, 2008 - 03:50 pm:

Hey Matt, I voted.

Daveofmohawk and Deb, I agree.

By David Soumis (Davesou) on Thursday, November 20, 2008 - 05:30 pm:

Carter...position of weakness or position of peace. non-militaristic?

Carry the big stick.John Wayne mentallity? That's what it seems most Americans want. Will we ever have peace with a militaristic attitude? probably never.

Obama ... he will be very far from a peace president. He's right now aligning himself with neocons and hawk Democrats, so you Bush supporters shouldn't see too much change as far as foreign affairs.

By A. David Archibald (Yooperatheart61) on Thursday, November 20, 2008 - 05:59 pm:

David Soumis
Sad to say you may well be very right!

By David Hiltunen (Davidcorrytontn) on Thursday, November 20, 2008 - 07:10 pm:

The Obama voter, apparently,is one of the most ignorant sets of voters that we have ever seen or known about in a presidential race. Don't kid yourself you other David's. We non Obama voters know what he will do. He will do things such as FDR did. The War got us out of the Depression. Not the things FDR did.

I got this info from the Zogby website

Like in the game show Family Feud the:

Survey finds most Obama voters remembered negative coverage of McCain/Palin statements but struggled to correctly answer questions about coverage associated with Obama/Biden

UTICA, New York -- Just 2% of The Obama voter, apparently, is one of the most ignorant sets of voters that we have ever seen or known about in a presidential race. John Ziglar got hold of Zogby, and said, "I have some questions," and he paid him to do a poll.
voters who supported Barack Obama on Election Day obtained perfect or near-perfect scores on a post election test which gauged their knowledge of statements and scandals associated with the presidential tickets during the campaign, a new Zogby International telephone poll shows.

Zogby Statement on Ziegler poll

Only 54% of Obama voters were able to answer at least half or more of the questions correctly.

The 12-question, multiple-choice survey found questions regarding statements linked to Republican presidential candidate John McCain and his vice-presidential running-mate Sarah Palin were far more likely to be answered correctly by Obama voters than questions about statements associated with Obama and Vice-President–Elect Joe Biden. The telephone survey of 512 Obama voters nationwide was conducted Nov. 13-15, 2008, and carries a margin of error of +/- 4.4 percentage points. The survey was commissioned by John Ziegler, author of The Death of Free Speech, producer of the recently released film "Blocking the Path to 9/11" and producer of the upcoming documentary film, Media Malpractice...How Obama Got Elected.

"We stand by the results our survey work on behalf of John Ziegler, as we stand by all of our work. We reject the notion that this was a push poll because it very simply wasn't. It was a legitimate effort to test the knowledge of voters who cast ballots for Barack Obama in the Nov. 4 election. Push polls are a malicious effort to sway public opinion one way or the other, while message and knowledge testing is quite another effort of public opinion research that is legitimate inquiry and has value in the public square. In this case, the respondents were given a full range of responses and were not pressured or influenced to respond in one way or another. This poll was not designed to hurt anyone, which is obvious as it was conducted after the election. The client is free to draw his own conclusions about the research, as are bloggers and other members of society. But Zogby International is a neutral party in this matter. We were hired to test public opinion on a particular subject and with no ax to grind, that's exactly what we did. We don't have to agree or disagree with the questions, we simply ask them and provide the client with a fair and accurate set of data reflecting public opinion." - John Zogby

"After I interviewed Obama voters on Election Day for my documentary, I had a pretty low opinion of what most of them had picked up from the media coverage of the campaign, but this poll really proves beyond any doubt the stunning level of malpractice on the part of the media in not educating the Obama portion of the voting populace," said Ziegler.

Ninety-four percent of Obama voters correctly identified Palin as the candidate with a pregnant teenage daughter, 86% correctly identified Palin as the candidate associated with a $150,000 wardrobe purchased by her political party, and 81% chose McCain as the candidate who was unable to identify the number of houses he owned. When asked which candidate said they could "see Russia from their house," 87% chose Palin, although the quote actually is attributed to Saturday Night Live's Tina Fey during her portrayal of Palin during the campaign. An answer of "none" or "Palin" was counted as a correct answer on the test, given that the statement was associated with a characterization of Palin.

Obama voters did not fare nearly as well overall when asked to answer questions about statements or stories associated with Obama or Biden -- 83% failed to correctly answer that Obama had won his first election by getting all of his opponents removed from the ballot, and 88% did not correctly associate Obama with his statement that his energy policies would likely bankrupt the coal industry. Most (56%) were also not able to correctly answer that Obama started his political career at the home of two former members of the Weather Underground.

Nearly three quarters (72%) of Obama voters did not correctly identify Biden as the candidate who had to quit a previous campaign for President because he was found to have plagiarized a speech, and nearly half (47%) did not know that Biden was the one who predicted Obama would be tested by a generated international crisis during his first six months as President.

Zogby Poll: Almost No Obama Voters Ace Election Test

Survey finds most Obama voters remembered negative coverage of McCain/Palin statements but struggled to correctly answer questions about coverage associated with Obama/Biden
For content, contact: John Ziegler at talktozig@aol.com.

In addition to questions regarding statements and scandals associated with the campaigns, the 12-question, multiple-choice survey also included a question asking which political party controlled both houses of Congress leading up to the election -- 57% of Obama voters were unable to correctly answer that Democrats controlled both the House and the Senate.

By A. David Archibald (Yooperatheart61) on Thursday, November 20, 2008 - 07:31 pm:

If anyone is truly interested in the truth of the Zogby Poll cited as the gospel check it it out.

By Eugene Zuverink (Zube) on Thursday, November 20, 2008 - 07:50 pm:

Some of you still say the Republicans are know for taken from the poor and giving to the rich.
GIVE SOME EXAMPLES. This kind of talk goes on and on and more and more people catch on to it and that is why there is so much hate in this country. Deb you say you are not rich, I don't know your life style, but from some of your post it sounds like you and your hubby enjoy life and travel around, so you can't say you are poor, what do you call rich. Just think of the Carter years 1977 to 1981, 21% interest to buy a vehicle
that would make you poor. These times right now has not one thing to do with George Bush, there is not reason to be against him for this, Go and grab Barney Frank and Chris Dodd by the back of the head.You talk about letting the ship go down they sure have, and what is congress doing about it NOTHING and there they are still top man of there committees.
As far as the auto industrie, it's right here in my state, let the unions bail them out, they put them where they are. $30.00 an hour, It cost the company about $70.00 an hour with benefits, absolutely rediculous. It is no wonder people buy so called foreign cars.But Bush gets the kick
in the ### for all of it.

By David Hiltunen (Davidcorrytontn) on Thursday, November 20, 2008 - 08:01 pm:

I can not find a name to the numbers guy. Can you tell me who he is. And by the way Obama has said he will do like FDR.

By David Hiltunen (Davidcorrytontn) on Thursday, November 20, 2008 - 08:07 pm:

Carl Bialik I found it.

By Michael Du Long (Mikie) on Thursday, November 20, 2008 - 08:14 pm:

I am a retired auto worker. I have a trade and a college education. Worked hard for forty years in the industry. Worked my self up to a good job. People who blame the unions for everything are short sighted and don't realize where they would be if the unions hadn't taken on the barons of industry on during the last century. According to some people I am not even good enough to be considered a full fledged citisen, pardon my spelling using my sons computer and can't find spell check. I have paid taxes, more then some and less then others. Served in the Army, raised my kids, been married to Precious for fortytwo years, but some of you don't think I deserve to be treated the same as you since I am one of those no good lazy autoworkers. I would put my service to the company up against any one out there and would be considered as good or better then most. I am sick of people condeming all autoworkers, why don't you start condeming the computer geeks who are on the web all day during work hours. Googling everything, shopping and reading Pasty Cam when they should be working. He who has never sinned should cast the first stone. As for me I am tired of people condeming an entire section of working people who are as good as the best. How many of you can fix what these workers build? Most of us, me included, have to go to a mechanic who is not as educated as we are. But this guy can fix what we are not smart enough to do. I have found that most of the people who condem unions are either not good enough to get a job where there is a union, or lucky enough. Then they are jealous that they don't have the same benifets. Get a life and don't be jealous of people who might be better off then you. Just because you can't get what they have doesn't mean that they should give it up since you can't have the same benifets. Time for me to stop pontificating.

By A. David Archibald (Yooperatheart61) on Thursday, November 20, 2008 - 08:36 pm:

you sure said a mouthful! A very very truthful mouthful!!! I obviously agree 100%. I too am a UAW member! Tank Arsenal in Warren, Mi. for 27.5 years. Started with Chrysler and finished with General Dynamics Land Systems Division.

By David Hiltunen (Davidcorrytontn) on Thursday, November 20, 2008 - 09:08 pm:

Mike you are right, the reason people oppose the auto industry bailout is not just because they don't think it will work, but a lot of people just don't want to subsidize workers who have bigger salaries and better benefits than many of them do.It's just an issue of fairness. It's not anti-union. This isn't about the working man, it's about clinging to the old Democrat coalitions. It's about power. For sure the Democrats want the taxpayers to finance their constituents. They consider those folks their constituents like they do inner cities. Free market's is what's going to solve this problem and not a bailout.

Hey Gene, at least Barney Frank is being honest about this bailout. He has admitted, it is not about the auto industry, it is about the unions. And he doesn't think that $25 billion is enough to save them. In fact, he doesn't think that number is "fair" because companies like AIG have been given more of our tax dollars in the form of a bailout. And this is "biased" towards white collar workers.

Another point.. $1600.00 is added to the price of a U.S. made vehicle to pay for the auto workers health insurance.

By David Soumis (Davesou) on Thursday, November 20, 2008 - 09:25 pm:

the mess we're in surely wasn't started by Bush..1 or 2 ...
its been in the making for a long time...probably since Eisenhower. Its been slowly cranking along. NAFTA and such treaties just got it here quicker. Both parties have contributed to where we are.

The car manufacturers in the US, along with most corporations, are tuned to one thing..quick, short term profits.

The inevitable energy dilemma has been talked about for over 30-40 years. No one has even tried to do anything about it. Now here we are.
And even now, after the $4 a gallon deal, when people started giving up their SUVs, they are now driving them again because gas has fallen. Its now $1.89 here.

Will we ever learn?

unions...if it wasn;t for unions, we would all be working 16 hours a day with Sunday off. So would our kids. Benefits..there would be none.

By David Soumis (Davesou) on Thursday, November 20, 2008 - 09:31 pm:

there is a big effort in the US to kill the unions.
Large corporations with no unions, for the most part, have a stranglehold on their workers. With the job market as it is, and getting worse, they can make them work or do whatever they want. And what can a worker do about it? ••••• and moan..no. Quit? No
we're being turned into slaves. Slaves to corporate benefits like healthcare.
Do you think there will be a change in the current setup of healthcare and corporate benefits of same? No..because if there were universal coverage, the corporations would not be able to hold on to their workers and make them work more than any other developed country in the world.

The US has the #1 depression rate in the world. #1..we're all depressed.
Time off ... we are again on the bottom of the ladder.
Our productivity is among the highest, but at what cost to family and a good lifestyle?

By Eugene Zuverink (Zube) on Thursday, November 20, 2008 - 09:44 pm:

Michael, I for one am in no way jealous of a union employee.
When a union first got into a ford plant they have needed a union, BUT you know they have gotten way to greedy. Well you say your just jealous you didn't work for a union co. Remember Michael every Co. doesn't have a union. So don't say it that way. Sure you get paid Medical, you get a pension, but everybody doesen't or did not work in the auto industry or a union shop.
But what about the guy that fixes you auto, or the teller that helps you in the bank and on and on. But luckey Michael he has a college education
and no one said you are not to be treated the same as others. But you better remember every time someone buys a new vehicle they are helping pay for YOUR benefits and if the auto industrie
goes to pots you may go with it. You union people have pushed and pushed to get your wages and benefits up so high and now the auto industri is suffering for it, and you know its the truth. If the auto industrie goes under your pension fund will go with it. How many people get a pension today, not many. I and my wife who I have been married to for 52 years saved for our selves, we didn't depend on the consumer to pay our pension. I believe it is Ford has 8 Jets,
who is paying for them, the consumer, why don't the sell seven of them. It's just big time because the consumer pays for it, but it has finaly caught up with them.
So be it. GO GREEN

By Eugene Zuverink (Zube) on Thursday, November 20, 2008 - 09:53 pm:

Man after reading my post, my spelling is all screwed up, time to go back to school

By Michael Du Long (Mikie) on Thursday, November 20, 2008 - 10:45 pm:

Zube, I have saved and have also sent three kids thru college. Also sent myself thru. How much cheaper are the Japanese cars then ours. We won the war and lost the peace. We built there auto industry up and during the seventies the Japanese government subsidized their auto industry so they could put us out of business. Again I say you would like to see the union represented people lose their benefits and be in the same boat as you. It is obvious that some of us looked forward to when we would be able to retire. For your information I wont lose my retirement since the Federal Government guarantees it. I also was in a self enrichment program that sends me another check every month. I also invested in the stock market and am smart enough to have made 5% this quarter. By the way Zube, most police, teachers, and goverment workers will also get a pension. So I guess they also have chosen careers that will provide them with some kind of pension. You are jealous of the fact that some people have more then you. Why in the world would you want someone to lose their pensions. Greed is not what made me go to work at Chrysler. I worked hard and never did drugs, was never an absentee problem, was on committees that helped the neighbors around the plants. Was the president of the school board here in my home town. Believe it or not this autoworker is even liked by the neighbors. I have given of my time and my money to charities. I suport a young man in the Philipeens, and help people all the time. Take care of an eighty eight year old man. But according to you I am a greedy person who does shoddy work. I was the first in my family to go to college. My dad had to take care of his family and left school when he was sixteen. I have a degree, and am a pipefitter, plumber, and steamfitter. When I returned from the service I met people who called me a baby killer and spit on my uniform. Never killed any babies. I am sorry if you think you are better then me, but you are not. Just older.

By Heikki (Heikki) on Thursday, November 20, 2008 - 11:08 pm:

I sure missed a lively conversation! Yes, Davesou and Archie, speak softly and carry a BIG stick. As long as there are tyrants in this world wanting to rule, we must always maintain a strong military. Otherwise, just as happened in the 1930's when our military was withering on the vine, the world-rule wannabes were emboldened and reversing their efforts cost us more in blood and treasure than we ever want to experience again. That is the cost of freedom. 'Strength through peace' is a convoluted thought process that ignores the reality of people like Hitler, etal. Monsters of that ilk respect only one thing: Might.

By David Hiltunen (Davidcorrytontn) on Thursday, November 20, 2008 - 11:17 pm:

Mikie, don't get your blood presure up. I don't think that is what Zube feels from what I know about him. It is all about the consumer wanting a good deal. It is a very tough debate, and we do not want to get into name calling and things like that. Once again it is about what is good for the majority not just one individual.
Many people get a pension today. There are old men out there 84 years old drawing a pension for longer then they worked for the big three. This can not go on forever, or they will need to be bailed out every year. There are many drawing $ 3000 a month that are no longer productive with health care to boot. Look at what it is doing to the price of a vehicle. I say let the people decide, the tax payers by going out and buying the vehicle they want and give them a tax break. And if more Fords are sold bail them out and let the others go bankrupt. Government will own 80% of them if they get bailed out, then you may as well say the unions will own that much too. I am not anti union, I am a conservative and in favor of making as much money as you can. People like to brag about the price they paid for a car, when they pay below sticker price, gives one a feeling you gave the shaft to the dealer. Now go out and buy a horse and you like to brag how much you paid for it. I don't know people it is your money, if you want a bailout let's bail out the Government so they can stop printing money for awhile.

By Michael Du Long (Mikie) on Thursday, November 20, 2008 - 11:46 pm:

Dave, I am a little hot now. I apologize if I have insutlted anyone. What are the prices of the Japanese cars? Similar to ours. They came in here in the seventies and sold their cars with a goverment subsidy thus making their cars cheaper. We couldn't afford to sell our cars for the same price. Our goverment at the time decided to bring charges against the Japanese companies. They weren't playing fair. The goverment paid a subsidy to unemployed auto workers, I can't remember what the law was called. Michigan couldn't afford to pay the unemployment benifets so the Federal Goverment did. New employees are now recieving the same wages as the Japanese companies are. The southern states who have enticed the Japanese and the Germans into their states with tax rebates etc are fighting to get the big three to go out of business. That to me is greed. By the way the pensions are being held by the UAW and they are sending the checks out. Or at least that is what I have been told. I also am a very conservative person. An independent, but leaning towards the right. I would love to meet the 84 year old who is getting three thousand a month from one of the big three. More likely his pension is closer to five or six hundred and what ever he gets from SSI. I handled pensions when the 84 year old would have retired. The pensions work like this, if you retire under 62 and with thirty years service you recieve a supplement till you reach sixty three. After that your pension is reduced by a significant amount. Ususally about half of what you are getting. SSI makes up the difference, and as you know SSI is determined by how much you made in the last years of work. So you would have to convince me that this person is getting that much money per month. I just don't understand why people want all these people to lose their jobs. Dave didn't you work for Big Blue? Then you must get a pension also. Maybe everyone who gets a pension should return it and let all the people who don't get one split the money, yeah lets spread the pensions out amongst the people who don't have one. Then we all would be the same.

By Deb S. (Usedtobeayooper) on Friday, November 21, 2008 - 07:38 am:

Zube, one quick statement before getting ready for work. We do not travel around. We go to Michigan, period! The last 2 years we have spent 2 days in St. Ignace before traveling further north and see the sights on our way to stay at my parent's place for the week. We go Memorial weekend also. We again stay at my parent's place. We go in October and we stay there then also. If my parents didn't live there, we couldn't afford to take a vacation because we couldn't afford to pay for a motel. So, we are barely comfortable and it's getting worse. However, we do make sure we get at least an 8 day trip to Michigan in during the summer months. That is not traveling around. There are so many places I want to go but can not afford it. But that's okay, because settling for Michigan isn't exactly settling.

By Eugene Zuverink (Zube) on Friday, November 21, 2008 - 09:03 am:

Michael, you are a very sensitive man. But if you think I offended you, I am so sorry.
Now you have told us several times how well off you are, and sounds like so much better off than my wife and me. We can't afford to travel all over the country either, I don't want to run out of money before I die, like I said, we saved for ourselves.If you have all this education and a great income, good for you, we only go thru this life one time, were trying to make the best of it.

By Michael Du Long (Mikie) on Friday, November 21, 2008 - 01:09 pm:

Where are all the good jobs that our parents had. All gone overseas. You are right about the leaders of our country, the executives who are raping the economy and the the absorbent fees they are getting. They are not the people that I will defend. Workers of all kinds are the people who would suffer from the bankruptcy of the big three. When I was young people could work in the A&P own their houses, maybe drive an older car, but be able to survive. Now thanks to the greed of the companies that are still around the same type of person must work several jobs and depend on some kind of government subsidy to exist. I feel that the unions in our country have bettered life for all.

By Mary Drew at Pasty Central (Mdrew) on Friday, November 21, 2008 - 02:25 pm:

If everyone doesn't play nice in the politics room, you may all be sent to bed without your dinner. :->
Please stick to the issues and no more name calling and insults. It will make our moderator jobs much easier (I spent a good part of an hour reading and editing the posts above today). I thought I was done refereeing when my boys left home. Geesh...behave now!

By Michael Du Long (Mikie) on Friday, November 21, 2008 - 03:54 pm:

Sorry Mom I will behave from now on.

By A. David Archibald (Yooperatheart61) on Friday, November 21, 2008 - 04:09 pm:

Mikie: Hang in there you did nothing wrong

By David Hiltunen (Davidcorrytontn) on Friday, November 21, 2008 - 04:41 pm:

Good news..Hillary Rodham Clinton plans to quit her Senate seat... Bad news Barack Obama plans to nominate Hillary Rodham Clinton as secretary of state after Thanksgiving.

By A. David Archibald (Yooperatheart61) on Friday, November 21, 2008 - 05:31 pm:

There appears to be some posters on this site that by their own admission aren't doing very well and therefore nobody else should have anything that they don't have. A lot of us are only trying to get people things that are basic for normal decent living. Health care, enough of a pension to be able to eat a healthy diet, not having to choose between eating or your meds, or being able to heat your place of residence. Some even claim to be church goers, but seem to think Jesus doesn't tell you to look after those that are less fortunate than you are. This is HYPOCRISY to the max. Some call anyone wanting to help the poor or less fortunate, socialist, but bailing out Wall Street (wealthy, privileged class) is okay. I am very happy and pleased when someone has done well for him or herself as long as they haven't taken advantage of another human being to achieve their success. Personally having been raised in the UP but not born there, I would think most everyone born and raised there would fully understand about the "NEED" to help each other to make it. What in the world is wrong with people who keep electing people that don't represent them at all and have told them straight out that only the privileged people are entitled to a decent living; who attempt to control people thru fear. The Domino effect was a lie told about Vietnam - We are now setting up factories that used to be in the USA in Vietnam. I'll tell you, it isn't the worker who moved these factories to the Orient. Tax breaks and/or laws allow the companies to do it. We have the Fox in charge of the Hen House in the USA. The NEO-CONS are for empire (BUSINESS-Wealthy) not for average folks. It's the philosophy that counts -- not ones political party. We need to stop this, hurrah for me and forget about you attitude. WAKE UP and SMELL the ROSES before there is nothing else to lose.

By a m hill (Lvcamnotes) on Friday, November 21, 2008 - 05:48 pm:

on gm and their predicament:
i think a very interesting article:
Economics, politics and Social Stability

i also read an article recently - stating that gm pays
$1600 per vehicle towards pensions and health
care while toyota pays $20 per vehicle for
the same costs. this seems to be no competition.

By David Soumis (Davesou) on Friday, November 21, 2008 - 07:05 pm:

now the question becomes, why does Toyota only pay $20 per vehicle ?

Is it becasue the workers have no benefits? Or the workers pay the majority of the cost for benefits? The healthcare system in Japan is universal and Toyota doesn't have to pay for it?

By Eugene Zuverink (Zube) on Friday, November 21, 2008 - 07:19 pm:

Well all I can tell you is Gasoline is $1.65 here and has been for awhile.
So if everyone else is happy so am I

By a m hill (Lvcamnotes) on Friday, November 21, 2008 - 09:06 pm:

davesou, the auto bailout is a huge question for michigan now -- i know bho supports it but there is opposition. and if bailout fails it could be
disasterous for michigan. at least for many years.
i saw on the news a few days ago that michigan
has a 9.3% unemployment rate. sorry that i can't
remember where i read the pension/healthcare
costs for gm and toyota. many foreign auto
producers have many production plants in the
us. these plants include honda, toyota and
others. i've read that some southern congresspersons are opposing detroit bailouts
because their own auto industries are robust
-- honda, toyota, etc.

By David Hiltunen (Davidcorrytontn) on Friday, November 21, 2008 - 09:44 pm:

Gasoline is in most stations around Knoxville $1.89.9 I got some two miles up the road for $1.78 I have owned many a new automobile. I had GM - Ford - and Chrysler. Mostly Ford's like I have afew of now. I went out shopping for a 2008. I almost bought a KIA Sedona. They are Korean made. And I have worked along side of Korean people for many years, great workers indeed. I bought new in 1997 a Hyundai. I can see why these type of cars are selling. The Nissan is very popular as the Honda. Many are saying USA vehicles are junk, and the cost to fix them is so expensive. You won't get a 100,000 mile warranty on US made auto's. Disastrousness for Michigan, can it get any worse? I am sure it can, last one out turn out the lights. Why did Bush let this happen.

By FRNash/PHX, AZ (Frnash) on Friday, November 21, 2008 - 11:10 pm:

David Hiltunen:
"I almost bought a KIA Sedona."

What's in a name?

Do ya remember the Chevrolet Nova?

There was a (false) urban legend claiming that the Chevrolet Nova sold poorly in Spanish-speaking countries because in Spanish, "No va", literally meant "No go," as in "it doesn't go."

A similar very strong negative feeling applies for me, with a Korean automobile company's attempt to sell an automobile called a "Killed In Action (KIA)" in the USA. Kind of a rude reminder for those of us who may have had family members "Killed In Action (KIA)" in that "Police Action" (circa 1950-1953) in Korea! I would find the prospect of buying a KIA really difficult! Sorry, no sale!

A Hyundai on the other hand generates a much more positive, pleasant feeling, as it only reminds me of the 1960 film "Never on a Hyundai" starring Melina Mercouri and Jules Dassin. I really enjoyed the film, the exposure to the Greek culture, the dance, Manos Hadjidakis' music, the bouzouki, and the Greek language (subtitled in English). One of my favorite films of all time. (I even saw it at the Lode theater in Houghton!)

Thus I'd find it a lot easier to buy a Hyundai!

By Sandy G (Artessss) on Friday, November 21, 2008 - 11:51 pm:

A. David Archibald (Yooperatheart61) You said it best...hit the nail on the head!

By David Hiltunen (Davidcorrytontn) on Saturday, November 22, 2008 - 01:36 am:

I bought two Chevy Nova's. My first was a 1968, when I was a rich young man working for Burroughs. First I bought a 61 Ford Fairlane from a co-worker, then saved up for the Nova 307 three on the tree red. In 1974 my wife went out and bought one for us. She didn't like the 63 Chevrolet Belair Station Wagon with the 348 with four on the floor along with other goodies. She was to tiny. I new what Nova meant in Spanish, people often pointed that out to me .I had a Cavalier 85. I drove a 86 Pontiac 6000 LE and a Bonnieville had a 97 Bravada. I don't know what's in a name. Not sure what KIA means, other then I am sure it is not what you said. I dang near bought that Sedona, but purchased property instead in Gatlinburg. I sold the Lincoln Towncar not long after I moved here. Could not see the road ahead of me on these Tennessee hills with the big hood, so got a Taurus SES. Barbie loves her Explorer, Son likes his Ranger, so dose father in law. I know the US auto companies are hurting. More folks are hanging on to their cars for up to seven years or so. And the engines are disposable. If that is all it needs throw it away. Some years ago I sold my 1956 Plymouth Savoy push button auto shift. It only had 36,000 miles on it. Of course I cried over that. What did that car sell for new, about $600.00? Americans love their automobile. The poor man with his brand new used Chevy, and the rich man in the Mercedes gets the same feeling. The car you drive tells a lot about you. Such as the people who drive Volvo's, they say they are tree huggers. The only work I did for the Big Three was make some electronics for the mirrors ect. It was a good account to have. We soaked the •••• out of them. They say there will be a lot of job's to be had in the coming years in what they will be called Green Job's. I don't know, maybe going around checking the air all over the place and water. Checking all types of business making sure your not harming the environment. Going store to store putting litmus paper in restrooms to check urine before it goes down the drain for minimum wage which will be $9.50 an hour. A good government job with a electronic device implant in your behind to make sure your ask is working, handing out fines to the filthy rich business owners, chasing them to open shop in Mexico and other places so the illegal's can go back home. The Democrats are smart, who better to fix our problems then those who caused them. I will come down off my soapbox now.

By Deb S. (Usedtobeayooper) on Saturday, November 22, 2008 - 09:19 am:

Remembering JFK today. I believe it's the anniversary of his assassination. That was a very sad day, indeed. Even though I was just a kid, I remember it quite vividly.

By Snowman (Snowman) on Saturday, November 22, 2008 - 09:53 am:

I applaud the comment by A. David Archibald! Well said.

By David Soumis (Davesou) on Saturday, November 22, 2008 - 10:07 am:

David H .. we soaked the whatever out of em...now that's just an outstanding thing to do...wonder why prices are where they are...it just gets passed on down to us poor folk.

Green jobs...more like putting up and maintaining wind turbines, There are jobs at companies that work to reduce peoples' impact on the environment and there are jobs at environmentally-friendly companies which are socially responsible and do their best to improve the environment, rather than harming it.

Not a bad way to think. I'm really amazed and disappointed that people blow off being environmentally friendly. What's wrong with it? What's wrong with trying to save some prestine forests or protecting the Alaska tundra. What's wrong with being a "tree hugger"? You would prefer that the UP is clear cut ? You would prefer to see oil derricks sticking out of every possible square inch of land and oil rigs dotting every possible inch of ocean floor?

We should have been nearly oil free as far as energy by now. No one has done a thing. Our mentallity is that of greedy little kids with our big toys..SUVs and all that..gas guzzlers. Its truly amazin to me that people still have that attitude. The best thing that cold happen is to have gas at $10 a gallon. Maybe our attitude will change and someone will come with with alternate fuels...

and as far as being political ... no amount of drilling in the ocean or Alaska will make a dent in our oil consumption from the Middle East. There isn't enough and the impact of that won't even be felt for 10 years. We need to get rif of oil for energy ..period.

By David Soumis (Davesou) on Saturday, November 22, 2008 - 10:12 am:

I forgot to comment on A. David Archibald post above...that is it exactly.
Its truly mind boggling that regular people, or anybody, fall for the lies, and even more questionable that Christians fall for it, considering Jesus was all about peace and helping the down trodden and poor.

By FJL (Langoman) on Saturday, November 22, 2008 - 10:21 am:

And you could have Wind Turbines on every inch of land from the East to the West coast and would still need fossil fuels.........

By David Soumis (Davesou) on Saturday, November 22, 2008 - 10:22 am:

JFK ...
It is a day embedded in my mind...
We were at gym class in the old Chassell Community Center, home of the Chassell Panthers.

We were coming out the front door of the building to go back to the school. As we were crossing US 41, Mrs Koumala, (spelling and I may have forgotten who lived across the street from the community center, but I think it was her), came running out of her house, across the lawn, screaming and waving her arms around that President Kennedy had been shot. She was in total hysterics, pretty much.
We then got back to school and they turned on the radio so we could listen to what was going on. We were all riveted to the sound..in shock.

Got home and watched it endlessly on TV...CBS..Walter Cronkite. It was one of the worst times in America...everyone pretty much were in total shock and disbelief...and wondering what was happening to the country.

looking back on it , I think that was the first time I really started watching news and politics.

By David Soumis (Davesou) on Saturday, November 22, 2008 - 10:37 am:

there are more ways to produce energy than just wind turbines. Probably ways no one has even though of yet, or some near Star Trek stuff that no one has bothered to fund because we're too busy throwing cash away being militaristic, fighting wars over oil and giving the cash away to mortgage companies and banks that just continue to slap us in the face while their executives flaunt their wealth and get richer. Especially considering they are the ones that got us into this mess as it is.

If it were me giving away that money, there would be stupulations along with it, starting with the executives giving up their exorbatent pay and bonuses. I know most of you are against socialism and communism, and probably any ism, but I would set up a pay structure in this country that is equitable for everyone, such as fair pay for fair work...the executives would be capped at a certain percentage of average earnings. Incentives could be given but they would also pass down to the workers, not just the executives getting multi-million dollar bonuses while the workers suffer pay cuts and more and more of their pay going to pay for benefits, or losing them all together.

I would also change the tax structure to where everyone above the poverty line would pay exactly the same percentage of tax on every penny they earn, pro-rated by the size of the family, but set up in such a way that single people are not penalized. Some math head could figure it out easily enough. Social Security would also be paid on every dime, not cut off as it now is. This would assure tax payment equality and insure the fact the retired would have their social security payments.

And another big one on taxes...those serving in the military, protecting our freedom and democracy, would pay no income tax, federal or state, as they now do.

By David Soumis (Davesou) on Saturday, November 22, 2008 - 10:49 am:

The Big Three and the "bailout"

There is no quesiton the automakers influence a large part of the US economy. What is troubling is the fact it is their own fault they are in this mess. Their short term profit motives and not looking at the future.

They've squandered years of research on fuel efficient cars, or trying to build something that can run on something besides oil products.

They've invested in big gas guzzling cars and SUVs. Changing models and discontinuing models that were popular.

Cars got better gas mileage in the 80s than they do know, by far, other than the hybrids...but even those get pretty terrible mileage, really.
Most of the problem comes from safety features, which are important, but also from all the electronic gadgets, motors, etc that increase the weight of the vehicles. Even the Japanese cars get worse mileage than they did before. Most of them get worse every model year, if you look at the statistics.

What to do? For one, like in my last post, the executives should reduce their pay. Reduce or get rid of their bonuses. Why get a bonus when the industry is in a shambles? They need to cut back on all the frills.

Here you go !!! One of the best things that could happen to the auto industry is to have universal health care for all citizens of this great country. They would no longer have to worry about forking out all those millions for health care. Its one of the main reasons the foreign companies are kicking our butts.

By Deb S. (Usedtobeayooper) on Saturday, November 22, 2008 - 11:32 am:

It's embedded in my mind also. We were having a concert or something down in the Little Gym at St. Joseph's school. I saw my dad come rushing in and went up to the nearest nun he could find to tell her about it. The concert was stopped, we were told about what happened and sent home. I remember walking home and watching the skies, thinking we were gonna get attacked by the Russians because we had no President to protect us. Remember, this is the mind of a child. Anyway, we watched CBS and Walter Cronkite for the rest of the day also. So sad, everybody crying. I do believe that changed the course of history. So sad. That little boy standing there, saluting his father's casket.

Then came Robert Kennedy, and everybody's hopes were high again, only to be shot down by another assassin. Sigh...............

Let's not forget Martin Luther King who, in my opinion, delivered the best speech ever. It sent goosebumps down my arms.

By David Soumis (Davesou) on Saturday, November 22, 2008 - 11:43 am:

I've always wondered what really happened with those assassinations. Why? Was there more to it than we realize? Was there maybe a more sinsister thing going on?

If you look at what those men stood for, and of course the movement that developed because of them, if Bobby Kennedy had prevailed in the election, Martin Luther King was still around, where would this country be now?

A totally different direction, I would think. Those assassinations numbed the soul of America. It was like some cold wind blew over our country.

By David Hiltunen (Davidcorrytontn) on Saturday, November 22, 2008 - 12:59 pm:

We gave them a better deal on electronics then the government paid for some toilet seats. S.N.O.T was the word I used that got dotted out. We placed the bid for the job, so must of been the best deal in town.

David Archibald is a good man and writes very well. It will be great to have him on our side when we Onward Christians Soldiers need to march off to a Holy War.

And you my friend David Soumis could win the Nobel Peace Prize with your ideas alone. I have received many bonus's, profit sharing checks. When you can save the company you work for or own a ton of money, should you not get a few pounds of the savings in return? When the Boss comes up to you and fellow workers scratching his head asking how can we fix this problem, and a person speaks up with a brilliant plan, is a pat on the back enough for some? Or would you feel better if later on down the line the Bossman hands you your paycheck and says there is a bonus in there for you for you, don't tell the others, they will also get a larger profit sharing check then ever before because of you. Wow what a good feeling eh? That kind of thing would not happen in a union shop. Doing a good job there would be like P- ing your pants in a dark suit, it feels good but nobody notices it. If they would let me back in to Area 51 I bet I could come up with better things then smoke detectors, micro waves, Light Emitting Diodes, and fiber optics from the Alien spacecraft that crashed in NM. back in 39. If we could just get our hands on a new model, some genius could save the planet! Maybe in 3 or 4 years 2012, and we can put them well trained union auto workers to work building flying machines that don't use petroleum earning $300.00 an hour with a 15 hour work week, a magic wand to fix the health care problem, new and improved health food, no more medicines, a super weapon in the hands of the religious right that would put the fear of God in all evil doers. It would be the greatest thing since pie irons, the options would be endless. Time to go take my medicine.

Thinking of JFK on this day also. Maybe when everyone has passed on who was really involved in the plot we will find out the truth, it was because of his speech when he said," Ask not what your country can do for you, ask what you can do for your country." He may of had a heads up on the plan for total government control and was giving us a warning?

By FRNash/PHX, AZ (Frnash) on Saturday, November 22, 2008 - 01:03 pm:

David Soumis (Davesou):
"If it were me giving away that money, there would be stupulations along with it …"

Ooooh, biting my tongue! A contraction, perhaps? "stupid stipulations"?

"I would set up a pay structure in this country that is equitable for everyone …

So you would decide what is equitable for everyone?

That sounds a bit imperious, like certain charities that would deign to tell me what my "fair" contribution should be!

Rather typical, too, for a socialist state to decide what your needs are, as well as what would constitute fair compensation for your work on the collective farm!

Comrades, we don't need no stinkin' input or opinions from the peasants, we know best!

'Tis all very motivational too, and most effective at inspiring the workers to excel for the pittance that the party has determined is "fair" compensation for the workers in the "workers paradise"! Hmm, or not!

David Soumis (Davesou):
"One of the best things that could happen to the auto industry is to have universal health care for all citizens of this great country. They would no longer have to worry about forking out all those millions for health care."

Why of course, the auto manufacturers wouldn't have to worry about forking out all those millions for health care, all the US taxpayers would instead … however their burden would be vastly larger!

And you thought that simply "fixing" medicare was going to be expensive? Well heck the US taxpayer won't mind a "fair" flat tax rate of 50% if they can have the equivalent of Canadiean health care!
FJL (Langoman) on Saturday, November 22, 2008 - 01:06 pm:

Bobby Kennedy, assassinations, sinister things!! Who was the person that B. Kennedy vowed to expose and put in prison?? I think he had something to do with a Union. Let's see, what was his name.............

By David Soumis (Davesou) on Saturday, November 22, 2008 - 01:50 pm:

maybe I'm a socialist? I should check closer into my leanings.

If I'm giving away billions of my tax dollars, I think it fair that I tell,(stipulate), what the benefactors get paid.

The workers are the folks getting screwed, not the higher ups. Even in the non-profit I work for, the CEO is making 100 times more than me. What kind of BS is that? And that's just salary. Who are these guys that they make 100-500 times their workers? You see where these high thinking individuals have taken the auto industry..to its knees. And they still run around in big private jets, probably have 20 houses, and 10 cars. Am I jealous. not in the slightest. I have no jealousy towards greedy, self serving people, nor remorse if they lose a large chunk of it.

The entire US pay structure is a sham. Look at the sports people. What a joke that some ex gangbanger should be paid 10 million a year to play a game and social workers that are helping their fellow man make 35k a year. Somethings upside down in my opinion. But we've been raised that way, cultivated that way for many years. What so you expect? Brainwashed to be "consumers". Brainwashed into this notion we have to be first all the time, and then it becomes first at whatever the cost. Selfishness, greed, corruption, lying, cheating, scamming...to get to the top. And most of us then believe its ok for us to do that..we're all trying to get there. Its wrong.

Maybe I'm a communist? I really think it would be just peachy if the government were to establish a table of salaries and pay, based on a livable income, criticallity of the job, its impact on humanity, etc. Cap of profits. Why does a company need to make 20% profit to be profitable? I worked for a company that was laying off workers and at the same time bragging in their annual prospectice that they had a profit of 18% and had grown their dividends for the stock holders. What kind of BS is that?

Incentive for a job well done? How about the fact you're doing such a great thing for your fellow man? What more incentive do you need?

We all work together for a better world. We use our drive and productivity to make the Earth a better place to live, for everyone. What more would a man want? Monetary wealth and materialistic things? It ends up not givng you anything in the real scheme of things. Joe Blow was a great man. He had 12 houses, a private jet, a very nice yacht...a car for every day, a trophy wife, 4 snob ••• kids..and then he died. Poor Joe.
Hey gang!!! we're rich!. Now we have the stuff and the old man is dead. Dead. Gone. Buried. All that extravagance and wealth led to the same demise as will befall all of us. Why not leave the planet a better place..your fellow man in a better way? Having all that "stuff" doesn't do anyone any good in the end.

By David Soumis (Davesou) on Saturday, November 22, 2008 - 02:39 pm:

actually, those are just pie in the sky , unrealistic dreams. Jesus must have had a high perception of the human race. He may not have realised we are so selfish and all into ourselves that we would not listen to him in the long haul.
Even if his teachings had not turned into "Christianity", his principals are surely ones to try to live up to, are they not? Even aetheist humanists, believe in dignity and worth of ALL people.

By FRNash/PHX, AZ (Frnash) on Saturday, November 22, 2008 - 03:23 pm:

David Soumis (Davesou):
"Even in the non-profit I work for, the CEO is making 100 times more than me. … Who are these guys that they make 100-500 times their workers?"

Well David, at least we can agree on something!

I don't buy the growing disparity between corporate officer and "grunt" worker compensation either.

What exactly do those corporate officers do on a daily basis to benefit the company so far in excess of the daily contributions made by the workers? Fly in their corporate jets to Washington to glean favors from their cronies in da gummint?1

Don't they have to face an annual "performance review", in which they must 'splain what they've "done for you lately" to justify those salaries? (Wouldn't you love to see that "justification"?)

I'd almost be willing to bet that those 100 - 150 "grunt" workers altogether add far more value to the company on a daily basis than the one of those corporate officers that collects a salary that equals the sum total of those 100 - 150 workers' pay.

The usual excuse is that "If we don't provide our corporate executives a compensation package that is competitive with the rest of the industry they'll bail on us." To which my response to those executives would be: "Goodbye! Don't let the door hit you in the seat of the pants on the way out."

The problem may lie in the "good old boys" of the corporate board of directors, whose "executive compensation committee" is focused on providing the most that they can get away with in "perks" for their good 'ol boy buddies.

But isn't the board of directors supposed to be answerable to the stockholders for their actions?

So where are the stockholders?

The "Wall Street bigwigs" aren't the only folks in the stock market anymore, with all the more "middle America" workers putting a portion of their hard earned money into company stock, and other similar investments in their 401K programs. And aren't union members putting a portion of their hard earned money into union pension funds? Where are those funds invested? Directly in company stock or via mutual funds?

Where's the outrage from the corporate owners — the stockholders?

1 As a pilot myself, I can't really criticize their use of a corporate jet (or any other General Aviation vehicle) as they can not only avoid scheduling issues, long ground delays, TSA hassles and the like, but also provide a very effective and efficient business office on wings, thus making most efficient use of those highly paid corporate executives' time.
Tom (Tom) on Saturday, November 22, 2008 - 07:54 pm:

There is a lot to think about in today's comments.
Here is some thinking from another view:
How would one or even a committee ever be able to set wages for 300,000,000 people? Remember income is the incentive for people to work and creatively.
Two examples of gov't set wages are USSR and East Germany. Very poor output and quality of product. Truck and train drivers made more money than doctors, dentists, teachers, etc., and factory workers were second high. No output that could challenge the rest of the free world. Doctors in the USSR were women. That does not mean they were inferior due to sex---------the really top women went into sciency/technology research. Still no improvement in output.
The comment regarding Jesus and he talking about the poor is quite interesting.
There is a section in one of the books of the Bible about giving Ceaser what is Ceaser's and to God what is God's. You know what he meant as he was talking about the heavy taxation from Rome; he meant pay taxes. The also said in that section, forget the poor, they will be with us always. Probably some passage in the Bible that contradicts that. Would need to know which came first to make a little more sense of it.
Do any of you remember when Ben & Jerry's ice cream company became big enough that they needed to hire an outside CEO? The line workers wanted lower wages for a CEO and higher for custodial care, etc. So B&Js went out and hired a CEO for a very low wage. He screwed up royally. They increased the compensation some and hired another CEO. Still screwed up. The answer is that the top notch candidates went to firms that paid a great deal more. So, pay poor (low) and get poor results.
Now this does not forgive the high wages to CEOs of large companies but it shows the results of trying to rig the wage scale.

By Sandy G (Artessss) on Sunday, November 23, 2008 - 12:32 am:

When you get into that extremely higher bracket of pay, I understand that morals and ideas of greed change totally and those individuals become almost another person. It's like what the good book says, the love of money is the root of all evil? Not an exact quote but it makes it sadly all too clear and yet another truth for which we cannot do a thing. As a society we can begin to develop stronger communities.

We are worlds apart from so many leaders of our country. We should be strong enough to call upon any of them to lay all out what they are doing and why and proof of such. When we become as large as we are, there are safe guards that can be used to protect us. There are no answers for everything, but we can do better!

By Russell E. Emmons (Russemmons) on Sunday, November 23, 2008 - 12:51 am:

NOVA= In my dictionarys here says " A New and/or bright shining star"
You don't believe any company would name a new or any car with a defintion you guys gave? Or am I taking too seriously the usual sarcasm that abounds on this thread from several of you?

As I recall hearing years ago, early 70s, a GM CEO was quoted, overheard, saying to the effect, "If the people want cheap inexpensive junk, like the Japanese cars,that's what we will give them"!
And so it went we got cars like NOVA, Citation, Chevette etc. (Actually I think the Chevette was the better of that era series of "roller skates" and that's not saying much)

By FRNash/PHX, AZ (Frnash) on Sunday, November 23, 2008 - 04:39 am:

Russell E. Emmons (Russemmons):
"You don't believe any company would name a new or any car with a defintion (sic) you guys gave?"

No, but you may be sure they absolutely do consider the potential impact of the name on the target audience. It is customary to carefully research any proposed product or model name for any possibly embarrassing similarity to any notoriously, blatantly vulgar or obscene terms in any language.

Would you not object to owning a foreign made automobile with a model name that just happened to be identical to a common English language vulgarism or obscene term for an "excretory function"?

For a relatively tame example: You may recall that Humble Oil and Refining Company officials decided by the late 1960s that the time had come to develop a new brand name that could be used nationwide to replace their various Esso, Enco, and Humble brands.

At first, consideration was given to simply rebranding all stations as Enco until they learned that Enco is a Japanese abbreviation for "engine failure!"

In order to create a unified brand, the company went to great effort and expense in creating a new corporate name that had no meaning (adverse or otherwise) in any language. They changed the corporate name from Jersey Standard to Exxon, rebranding all its U.S. stations under the latter title in the summer and fall of 1972 after successful test marketing of the Exxon brand and logo in late 1971 and early 1972 at rebranded Enco/Esso stations in certain U.S. cities.

In fact, the company initially planned to change its name to Exon, staying with the four letter format of Esso and Enco, but at some point in the planning process, it was noticed that the governor of Nebraska was named James Exon. Renaming the company after a sitting governor seemed ill-advised and the second "x" was added to the new name and logo!

South Korea's oldest car company, originally Kyungsung Precision Industry, was founded in 1944 as manufacturer of steel tubing and bicycles. In 1952 (In the midst of the Korean War, as it happens!1), Kyungsung Precision Industry changed its name to Kia. According to Kia Motors, the name Kia derives from the Sino-Korean words ki ("to come out") and a (which stands for Asia), it is roughly translated as "arise or come up out of Asia" or "rising out of Asia".

Well, call me wierd, but I do take offense at Kia Motors apparent failure to recognize that some citizens of the good ol' USA whose family members may have been Killed In Action in that "Police Action", might be sensitive to negative memories triggered by the term KIA. No, I will not own an automobile bearing a KIA badge!
1 Major hostilities in the Korean War lasted roughly 3 years, from June 25, 1950 until July 27, 1953, during which time the US forces suffered 36,516 dead (including 2,830 non-combat) the overwhelming majority of which were Killed In Action (KIA).

(cf.: Vietnam War: 58,159 US dead in 8 1/2 years from August 2, 1964 (Gulf of Tonkin) through the end of direct U.S. involvement in the Vietnam War on January 27, 1973. And Iraq War: 4,119 US dead in 5+ years, from March 20, 2003 though July 15th 2008.)
Russell E. Emmons (Russemmons) on Thursday, November 27, 2008 - 09:09 pm:

Has anyone heard of lately, any big oil corp., pharmaceutical corp., military munitions/arms corps. crying for a bailout? Not to mention of course Wal-Mart? hmmmm, eh!

By FJL (Langoman) on Tuesday, December 2, 2008 - 05:06 pm:

WAL-MART: Who patronizes it?? Do they sell foreign made products?? Why do people buy those products instead of American made goods??? Oh thats right, U.S. companies moved over-seas. Wonder what made them do that? Could it be the high cost to manufacture their goods. Looks like the American public made their choice, and price was it. This didn't happen overnight, but was a long time coming. How many people that chastise those companies for moving shop at Wal-mart????????

By Eddie Allen (Glocktologist21) on Friday, December 5, 2008 - 11:49 am:

FJL, you are correct...America demanded cheaper products for the price and that's exactly what we wound up getting!...now there isn't practically anything you "don't" touch in a retail store that isn't made in China....

By FJL (Langoman) on Tuesday, December 9, 2008 - 11:43 am:

HOUSE FINANCIAL SERVICES HEARING, 9/10/03: "The more people, in my judgement, exaggerate a threat of safety and soundness (of Fannie and Freddie), the more people conjure up the possibility of serious financial losses to the Treasury, which I do not see. I think we see entities that are fundamentally sound financially and withstand some of the disastrous senarios. And even if there were a proplem, the federal government doesen't bail them out."--Rep. Barney Frank......

By FJL (Langoman) on Tuesday, December 9, 2008 - 01:01 pm:

HOUSE FINANCIAL SERVICES HEARING,9/25/03: "Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac do very good work, and they are not endangering the fiscal health of this country...I believe there has been more alarm raised about potential unsafety and unsoundness than in fact exists."---Rep. Barney Frank.....

By FJL (Langoman) on Tuesday, December 9, 2008 - 01:27 pm:

HOUSE FINANCIAL SERVICES HEARING,9/25/03: "I have sat through nearly a dozen hearings where, frankly, we were trying to fix something that wasn't broke...Mr. Chairman, we do not have a crisis at Freddie Mac, and in particular at Fannie Mae, under the outstanding leadership of Mr. Frank Raines. Everything in the 1992 act has worked just fine... Thoes GSEs have more than adequate capital for the business they are in: providing affordable housing. As I mentioned, we should not be making radical or fundamental change...or impede their affordable housing mission, a mission that has seen innovation flourish from desktop underighting to 100 percent loans."---Rep. Maxine Waters (D, CA)

By Eddie Allen (Glocktologist21) on Tuesday, December 9, 2008 - 01:48 pm:

“I am in favor of trying to help lower income people get the advantages of homeownership…But almost by definition, the large majority of poor people are going to need rental housing. And we will never alleviate the terrible housing crisis that affects so many people in this country if we do not do a much better job of building decent, affordable rental housing.” (Statement of Rep. Frank, Financial Services Committee hearing on proposed 2003 budget; February 18, 2002)...........

...It appeared to me that he was already back pedaling at that point in terms of his push for home ownership in previous years thus putting pressure on Fannie and Freddie to make it happen!
...It never ceases to amaze me how people continue to vote for these fools and fleebs to go to Capitol Hill but ohhheyyyy!....I'm just a misguided and misinformed conservative!
Massachusetts, you wanted him baby, you got him!

By FJL (Langoman) on Tuesday, December 9, 2008 - 04:31 pm:

SENATE BANKING HEARING,2/25/04: "This is one of the great sucess stories of all time ( Fannie and Freddie's home owenership rate) and we don't want to loose sight of that...we ought to embrace (any reforms) with a sense of caution and I emphasize that word-- that we don't do it in a way with a sledgehammer when a scalpel might be a more appropriate tool."--- Sen. Chris Dodd (D, CT)....

By FJL (Langoman) on Wednesday, December 10, 2008 - 08:04 am:

CAPITAL MARKETS, INSURANCE,AND GSE HEARING, 6/6/06: "I want to do everything we can, not just to preserve, but to improve the ability of Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac to help us with housing...In a perverse way, these events and this report are a testimony, I believe to the underlying strength of Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac... we have not had a serious problem." --- Rep. Barney Frank(D,MA)

By FJL (Langoman) on Wednesday, December 10, 2008 - 08:27 am:

CNN's "LATE EDITION WITH WOLF BLITZER,"7/13/08: "What's important here are facts. And the facts are that Fannie and Freddie are in sound situation. They have more than adequate capital...in fact, more than the law requires. They have access to capital markets. They're in good shape. To suggest, somehow, they're (Freddie and Fannie) in major trouble is not accurate."--- Sen. Chris Dodd (D,CT. Chairman of the Senate Banking Committee)

By FJL (Langoman) on Wednesday, December 10, 2008 - 08:36 am:

"This was avoidable. This did not have to happen. Where were the cops on the beat? Where were the regulaters? When these loans were being made they did nothing."--- Sen. Chris Dodd (D,CT), on ABC's "Good Morning America," Sept. 19, 2008.

By a m hill (Lvcamnotes) on Friday, December 12, 2008 - 05:37 pm:

yes langoman, sadly, you've clearly illustrated
the intelligence of our congress.

By Richard Wieber (Dickingrayling) on Wednesday, December 17, 2008 - 01:06 pm:

For some unknown reason it has been a long time since I visited this site and I am amazed by the degree of civility demonstrated while discussing topics of such emotional content. Holy smokes, it makes me proud to be a fellow Yooper. Started reading way back about a year ago. First thing that came to mind was the saying "God save us for the things we do in the name of religeon". Didn't agree with some that was said but my agreement has no refelection on the validity of what was said. The important thing is there are people out there that care enough about their country to engage in serious debate. God bless you, there too many that don't. Some of you folks should be in Congress and the country wouldn't be in the mess it's in. Keep up the good work.

By FRNash/PHX, AZ (Frnash) on Wednesday, December 17, 2008 - 03:47 pm:

Richard Wieber (Dickingrayling):
"I am amazed by the degree of civility demonstrated while discussing topics of such emotional content."

Yes indeed. It is encouraging to see that civility is alive and well on this site. (Not a big surprise for this site, of course.)

Let me be the first to admit that some postings above were deliberately a bit "over the top", in hopes of thus inspiring those with serious opposing views to share and defend those views by contributing to the discussion.

In part that seems to have worked. The more the merrier.

Sharing our differing views in a civil fashion can contribute to more thoughtful reflection in the issues, and may encourage the use of that grey matter (gray matter) between our ears for more than a "planting medium for a hair garden"!

By Sandy G (Artessss) on Tuesday, December 23, 2008 - 12:05 am:

So much political energy...get together and make it speak for all people.........Leaders!!

By maija in Commerce Township (Maija) on Thursday, January 22, 2009 - 09:50 am:

Didn't know what 'politics' page I should repost on, so here goes on this one too.

I was very sad to not be able to post a thanks to Jarmo from Finland for his congrats on our new prez.

All I tried to do was post a positive comment on Inauguration Day.

To those who think it was criticism of the former prez, I find that offensive. I said basically, "thanks Jarmo. Many of us respect President Obama for his intelligence, lack of arrogance, and commitment to core values." I said this in thinking over why I am so happy with our new prez.

There have always been posting re the particular day: veteran's day, christmas, etc. So I thought this was most appropriate and hoped for a reception of tolerance from those whose wishes were not fulfilled in this election.

To those who think my comments were a criticism of former President Bush, I find that insulting. I, unlike many people, never thought he was unintelligent. I don't think of him as arrogant. Look to Kwami Kilpatrick or Rod Blagojevich for arrogance. And, of course, core values are his strong point.

I meant to offend no one and am very saddened that all the posts honoring our new president were cancelled because of the views of a few.

He is our president! It was Inauguration Day!

By Gustaf O. Linja (Gusso) on Friday, January 23, 2009 - 10:44 am:

New President, new team and a new deal
we just have to watch the next four years
It makes little difference how one may feel
It will end up either in gladness or in tears
But we can hope for the best and worry
about the rest

By FRNash/PHX, AZ (Frnash) on Friday, January 23, 2009 - 12:56 pm:

Anyone who thought yesterday's post on the Cam Notes page by maija in Commerce Township (Maija) was the least bit "controversial" should have seen the foul obscenity that was posted late last night, and fortunately deleted soon after. It sure made Maija's harmless post seem incredibly bland in comparison. (It sure makes for a long day for our moderator(s)!)

Bottom line: Only the messages allowed on the PastyCam (Cam Notes) pages are the most innocuous pablum relating directly to the pictures of the day.


We ask you to keep the comments positive, and a pleasant experience for others who visit the site.

[And by inference:]
"… related to the daily picture (Cam Notes)

[And further:]
On any daily "Cam Notes" page, limit your postings to 2 messages, unless you are the photographer responding to feedback about your photo.

[With a little more leeway allowed on the later added What'sUP pages: … other topics, conversation and announcements. This area is for other friendly conversation.

[And finally:]
When you post messages on "Cam Notes" or "What'sUP", think of it as being invited into our living room (or your living room). Civil conversation would be expected. When we remove postings, it is not a question of censorship, but rather of maintaining the integrity of a family friendly website.

I must agree with those rules, as there are many visitors who come here solely to enjoy the our "daily glimpse of life from the U.P.", who do not wish to be exposed to anything the least bit controversial. I think they're entitled to that, not to mention that's what keeps 'em coming back!
No one could have been any more astonished than myself at the first appearance of the Politics pages, as I originally noted (in Past-E-Mail: Various Topics: Politics and Religion, Ketchup or Gravy: Politics: Archive - Nov 07):
Click → By FRNash/PHX, AZ (Frnash) on Saturday, November 3, 2007 - 12:56 pm:

In retrospect, the discussions in the Politics pages, though clearly opinionated, and at times "colorful" have remained remarkably civil. Let's hope that continues.
maija in Commerce Township (Maija) on Friday, January 23, 2009 - 03:34 pm:

Frnash: thank you! I had been thinking that I was totally the bad guy here!

By FJL (Langoman) on Friday, January 23, 2009 - 04:28 pm:

A post by maija on Nov. 9th 2007 at 8:58 a.m. "no, George W. is not sitting in his office crying like a baby--he's too arrogant for that." Now Maija, this is not meant to be insulting. I just wanted to remind you of this post. I'm sure you just forgot because of the time difference.

By David Soumis (Davesou) on Friday, January 23, 2009 - 06:27 pm:

actually, George was crying. It made me think about him in a bit different light. Maybe the guy really is patriotic and caring and not just a jerk and a screwup as he sometimes seems. It could be that he just can't express himself very well and was heavily manipulated by the background people, such as his VP. You know, an unwilling player that was played. His 8 years pretty much destroyed this country and makes us look like imperialistic, warmongering, bumbling idiots to the rest of the world.

Oh wait ... the destruction of our financial system actually started before GWB, so we can't lay the blame all on him. But his administration surely helped out his rich cronies in the banking and finance business.

By David Soumis (Davesou) on Friday, January 23, 2009 - 06:34 pm:

posting policies on cam and what's up...
I was definitly guilty of posting political posts on those forums prior to these great new ones...
Not real earth shattering posts, but hard hitting. I can see why they would want those posts from being in the cam notes and what's up. The stance makes perfect sense to keep it related to the picture of the day, etc.

It was really hard to do though, when someone brougt up a circumstance that just demanded a reply. I cannot refrain myself from responding sometimes, so these new forums are ideal to keep all this stuff over here, and the other areas clean of controversy.

And, yes, considering the total opposite viewpoints held by folks here, it is remarkable that things have held together so well.

This site should be made an example of being able to fulfill one of our rights, that of freedom of speech, without harassment, violence, or reprimand.

By maija in Commerce Township (Maija) on Saturday, January 24, 2009 - 08:34 am:

FJL: some comment I made on Nov 9 had nothing to do with my current posts congratulating new President Obama on Inauguration Day. Since you took it out of context, I don't even know what I was referring to. But, I repeat, in general I don't think former President Bush can be compared in arrogance to other politicians like Kwame Kilpatric, or Rod Blogojevich. And my congratulatory comments for our new President HAD NOTHING TO DO WITH FORMER PRESIDENT GEORGE BUSH!!! How often do I have to say this without being further attacked!?

I guess you, and others put me down as a bad guy way back on that day. Or was it bacause I posted on the Sarah 'Cuda Palin page that I don't believe in putdowns and labeling and don't think liberals are 'lame-brained'?

By FJL (Langoman) on Saturday, January 24, 2009 - 09:31 am:

Maija: You say in one sentence that G.W. is arrogant. Then you say you don't think of him as arrogant. Then you say that he can't be compared in arrogance to politicians like Kilpatric or Blogojevich. I'm glad you don't believe in "labeling." And I also don't think that liberals are "lame-brained", just confused, as this post shows.........

By Charlie at Pasty Central (Chopper) on Sunday, January 25, 2009 - 05:55 am:

FRNash, you mentioned above:

"...Only the messages allowed on the PastyCam (Cam Notes) pages are the most innocuous pablum relating directly to the pictures of the day."

I'm glad you used the word "pablum" because that gets at the heart of why we like to keep the daily picture discussion so mild: the children. Pablum was originally a processed cereal for infants, and we are constantly mindful of kids who are pointed to Pasty.com for an introduction to the web. Over the years we have had many teachers write us to say they make reference to pasty.com in this context. We want to keep it a kid-friendly place.

I'm sure kids find pages like this one (Politics) very boring, and wouldn't take the time or probably even understand many of the comments here. But where they see pictures of people diving through the ice or driving down the road with a deer around their neck, they tend to read a little more. We'd like to see that conversation remain at a 'teacher-approved' level.

Don't try this at home

FRNash/PHX, AZ (Frnash) on Sunday, January 25, 2009 - 12:57 pm:

Charlie at Pasty Central (Chopper):
"…the word "pablum" … gets at the heart of why we like to keep the daily picture discussion so mild: the children."

Surgically precise choice of words, eh, Charlie?

"We want to keep it a kid-friendly place."
Amen to that!

And no-one even mentioned my linguistic fumble (by the time I caught it I had missed the editing window!):
"Only the messages allowed on the PastyCam …"
which of course should have read:
"The only messages allowed on the PastyCam …"

Deb S. (Usedtobeayooper) on Sunday, January 25, 2009 - 09:40 pm:

You go maija!!!!!!!

By Heidi (Germangirl) on Monday, January 26, 2009 - 06:41 pm:

Pablum - a soft form of cereal for infants
trademark - a formally registered symbol identifying the manufacturer or distributor of a product. Geez, are all of you Yoopers infants?

By FRNash/PHX, AZ (Frnash) on Monday, January 26, 2009 - 08:34 pm:

Heidi (Germangirl):
"Pablum …"

I think Charlie pretty well covered that above, thank you.

"Geez, are all of you Yoopers infants?"
No, but sometimes newbies seem to find it difficult adjusting to da neighborhood!

By Heidi (Germangirl) on Tuesday, January 27, 2009 - 07:06 am:

I'm adjusting, slowly but surely.

By maija in Commerce Township (Maija) on Tuesday, January 27, 2009 - 03:51 pm:

Thank you Deb S. I was thinking I was the total outcast here....

By Deb S. (Usedtobeayooper) on Tuesday, January 27, 2009 - 08:00 pm:

Nope, no way. You did nothing wrong.

By Deb S. (Usedtobeayooper) on Tuesday, January 27, 2009 - 08:03 pm:

The comment by Heidi sounds more like what Snowman would say!!!!!! He was always insulting Yoopers.

By Michael Du Long (Mikie) on Wednesday, January 28, 2009 - 08:40 am:

Heidi sounds just like Joanie also.

By Matt Karhu (Matt_k) on Wednesday, January 28, 2009 - 11:17 am:

The recent postings provide some insight regarding people who view and post comments on this site. Like currently popular TV and radio talk-shows, I wouldn't recommend that children nor anyone else use this site as a source of reliable information. "Pablum" seems to be an appropriate editorial comment regarding its intended purpose.

By Eugene Zuverink (Zube) on Wednesday, January 28, 2009 - 11:35 am:

You don't insult Yoopers, it's a tuff life UP there,

By Michael Du Long (Mikie) on Wednesday, January 28, 2009 - 02:43 pm:

Zube, I agree.

By Eugene Zuverink (Zube) on Wednesday, January 28, 2009 - 06:02 pm:

Now I see that Obama is going to give up to 5.2 billion dollars to Acorn, I'm sure every one knows who Acorn is.They are the ones that are acused of voter fraud.,and as they say helped the Dems get in, thats a great payoff for a favor well done, so it's already starting

By David Soumis (Davesou) on Wednesday, January 28, 2009 - 06:15 pm:

5.2 billion ... that's nothing.
what happened to the trillion that the bush administration gave away...no one even knows where it went, let alone the billions that disappeared in Iraq. There are some fat cats feeling pretty good right now.

It truly amazes me that regular, honest, hard working folks, making less than 100-200k, can support such greedy people. You're never going to be on their level...never.

Obama is no different than the rest, other than the fact he may try to put some of those liberal ideas into play...something that we should be doing to help humanity and our fellow Americans.
All of the poor, unfortunate people aren't free loaders trying to make off with our tax dollars for nothing, like some of you guys seem to think.

And guess what, there's going to be a lot more of them pretty soon...regular folks just like you that have lost their jobs, lost their houses, lost everything. And they will need our help too...healthcare, somewhere to live, food, clothes, and so forth.

By A. David Archibald (Yooperatheart61) on Wednesday, January 28, 2009 - 06:45 pm:

David Soumis: Hear! Hear!
Once again they got it wrong, that 5.2 billion going to Acorn was a Limbaugh talking point and is pure BS!!!

By Matt Karhu (Matt_k) on Wednesday, January 28, 2009 - 07:22 pm:

Maybe it is time to bring back the "poor houses" to take care of the people who have lost and will lose their homes and jobs. I wonder how many jobs will be created when building the "poor houses".

Limbaugh and Hannity recently bragged that the recession doesn't affect them; I and my family and close friends also aren't affected but we don't brag about it. We won't buy new cars, new and bigger homes, etc., for a few years so we won't appear to be greedy and insensitive to people less fortunate. Well, we really don't need such things.

Seeing smug and greedy automobile car dealers and their salesman, and builders of over-priced homes and their realtors suffer some economic justice seems appropriate.

By FRNash/PHX, AZ (Frnash) on Wednesday, January 28, 2009 - 07:51 pm:

1. Do ya 'spose that former representative, senator (also from Illinois — but a Republican!), and master of overblown oratory and "filibustery", Everett McKinley Dirksen is looking down on events in Washington these days, saying I told you so:


"A billion here, a billion there, pretty soon, you're talking real money".

2. So we don't have Dubya to kick around anymore, with his command of the English language: "nuculer" and all.

But we do have a new "Prezunitedstates" (That's the way they say it on all the news shows and talking head shows, ya know: "Prezunitedstates".), just inaugurated, after a landslide victory.

Harvard eddicated, and "unquestionably one of the most articulate politicians to come along in some time (and it should come as no surprise that I certainly do respect that!)" — my own words, no less!

Well apparently that persona was fake, too! Lookie here:

Our new president, on El Arabia TV, no less(!), speaking to the Muslims in the middle east, and I quote, in part:


"You will see our administration be very clear in distinguishing between organizations like Al-Qaeda that expouse violence, that expouse terror..."

I guess some folks have their "nuculer", and some have their "expouse".

Does he have an "ex spouse"?

He wasn't married once before, was he? Maybe he was talking about his "ex spouse"? Naaawwww!

Obama, get thee to a grammar school!

Eugene Zuverink (Zube) on Wednesday, January 28, 2009 - 08:12 pm:

I knew I could get a rise out of someone on that.
NO thats not a Limbaugh talking point, this came from Newsmax.com, check it out.
If it wasn't for Hannity and Limbaugh you lefties wouldn't here the truth.

By Eugene Zuverink (Zube) on Wednesday, January 28, 2009 - 08:27 pm:

Come on Frnash, "The most articulate politician"
Take the promter away fron him and all the hand written notes, and he's stuck, uh uh uh.

By FRNash/PHX, AZ (Frnash) on Wednesday, January 28, 2009 - 08:41 pm:

Eugene Zuverink (Zube):
Well, I said it before (in one of these forums), so I can't take it back now! Still, he did much better with a teleprompter than many other pols do!

By Eugene Zuverink (Zube) on Wednesday, January 28, 2009 - 10:08 pm:

What are pols, I don't get it

By FRNash/PHX, AZ (Frnash) on Wednesday, January 28, 2009 - 10:21 pm:

Eugene Zuverink (Zube):
"What are pols, I don't get it"

What, you've never heard the term? Shirley, you jest!

From The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition: click → pols (pl.) pol (sing.)

By Heikki (Heikki) on Thursday, January 29, 2009 - 07:11 am:

Expouse is an acceptable substitute for espouse in the vernacular of the 'hood. Axe anyone from a 'hood and they'll tell you so. What this country needs is federal funding for ESL (Ebonics as a Second Language).
Eddication is impotent!

By David Soumis (Davesou) on Thursday, January 29, 2009 - 07:21 am:

so is kessup on your pasty

By Eugene Zuverink (Zube) on Thursday, January 29, 2009 - 10:06 am:

So Frnash, I do not see the word Pols in the Webster dictionary, so what is it, I don't think to many people do know, Thats like saying libary,I don't find that in the dictionary either, but many many people pronounce it that way. Is this a guessing contest. come on Frnash your an educated man, bring it down to our level

By FRNash/PHX, AZ (Frnash) on Thursday, January 29, 2009 - 01:34 pm:

Eugene Zuverink (Zube):

Aw Gene, you're playin' wit me now!
Didja click on the dictionary link in my last post?

By Eugene Zuverink (Zube) on Thursday, January 29, 2009 - 03:01 pm:

Frnash, I checked it out, I never heard that term, but now I understand, thank you so much
I have to go out and move some snow, it,s snowing like crazy here in south western Mich.

By Theresa R. Brunk (Trb0013) on Thursday, January 29, 2009 - 06:05 pm:

As a plumber I run into a lot of ebonics. A customer axed me will the work effect the 'flow'. Not understanding what he meant, I axed, do you mean like the flow of the water? and he shook his head and said 'NO, I mean the flow you walk on!.

By Eugene Zuverink (Zube) on Sunday, February 1, 2009 - 10:01 pm:

Is there an honest Politician out there for President Obama.
Tom Daschle, nominated for Health Secretary, tax evasion $128,000, but will no dought be confirmed, but it was a mistake from 2005 - 2007.
Ya sure.

Timothy Geithner,nominated and confirmed for Treasury Secretary and is also over the IRS, tax evasion over several years, $34,000, but it was a mistake, Ya sure.

Bill Richardson, nominated for Commerce Secretary
had to pull out because of the way contracts were given to political donores.
Great bunch of people he wants in there.

Where are we headed with people like that

By David Soumis (Davesou) on Sunday, February 1, 2009 - 10:52 pm:

i seem to remember a bunch of Republicans having a few difficulties as well.

I bet if you did a deep check of all of them, there wouldn't be a handful that didn't have some sort of illegal or other problem that would make them questionable for any office.

By Deb S. (Usedtobeayooper) on Monday, February 2, 2009 - 07:33 am:

Now Zube, let's not start picking apart the Dem's when you know the Rep's are no better. Oh yeah, I forgot, Dick was the model of decency!!

You tell 'em, Dave.

By Eugene Zuverink (Zube) on Monday, February 2, 2009 - 09:59 am:

I can't think of one Rep. thats been naughty, well maybe one or so.

By Eugene Zuverink (Zube) on Monday, February 2, 2009 - 10:18 am:

I said is there an honest politician out there,
are these guys I mentioned Democrats, that never came to my mind.

By FJL (Langoman) on Monday, February 2, 2009 - 11:17 am:

There was a cynincal Greek Philosopher who searched the world, while holding a lantern, looking for an honest man. I feel he is still searching........FJL

By Heikki (Heikki) on Monday, February 2, 2009 - 11:38 am:

The question is not whether there are some rotten apples in every barrel, for that's a given. The difference lies in how the rotten apples are dealt with. Are they supported by their cohorts who try to "explain away" their misdeeds with an "everybody does it" attitude, or do they expect them (the perps) to disqualify themselves in the interest of discouraging like behavior by others?

By Eugene Zuverink (Zube) on Monday, February 2, 2009 - 01:48 pm:

All it seems like they have to do is say I'm sorry it was something I overlooked and I'm sorry,When a person does that, dosen't that show a persons personality and some what of a pattern, WHY do we let people like that into office, we have enough like that already in office.

By David Soumis (Davesou) on Monday, February 2, 2009 - 08:29 pm:

I'm really embarrassed ... sure you are...

Eugene, are you saying its just more of the same?
If so, I agree.

In my so just a peon opinion, all of those folks in Washington right now should be voted out of office, and their rich puppet masters put on a ship adrift with no compass. Then we need to elect some good, honest, hard working people. Are there any left in national politics?
and the crooks and the corrupt are all the way down into local government. The big boys have no hold on it.

You got to play the game to gain the fame.

If you can't tell, I'm very disillusioned with out country. And it isn't just in politics. Its at work too.

By David Hiltunen (Davidcorrytontn) on Monday, February 2, 2009 - 09:15 pm:

Why do we let people like that into office, or to roam the streets?
Success is uncommon. It is not to be enjoyed by just anyone who is average. I find it fascinating because some in this country want success to be common. Success is an uncommon thing so not all of us are going to succeed. So many don't have 80% of the desire let alone the 20% of hard work it will take to succeed. The people who are successful did it with uncommon effort. They did it with uncommon drive. You can't be just average these day's. Get rid of the desire to be average. But for many average is good enough and quit if they think they reached that level. Then we got those below average doing all they can to lower the bar to become average. Why do we let people like that do these things? Is it so a politician can get into office, or scam business can use these below average and average folks to further their cause to get rich making them belive in such fearful tactics such as climate change, and telling you Democrats are good for you ect. Hey, why don't those who worry about such dumb things see what can be done to get rid of junk mail. I burn mine in the fireplace causing pollution. The money saved on postage can be donated to food banks. Let's raise the bar and make average better then it has ever been, and leave these fools behind to catch up when they get with the program. Who want's to raise the bar for being average? Give me a Amen.

By Matt Karhu (Matt_k) on Wednesday, February 4, 2009 - 10:10 am:

I and most of my friends agree that success can be what a person wishes for himself; it is not always expressed by money and material things beyond what is needed for a comfortable and healthy life. We think most of the people in this country are successful to the degree that satisfies their needs, and when they see people in need they willingly do what they can to help them.

This is a great country. What David H. portrays in his Feb. 2 commentary seens to be prejudiced. It is inaccurate except perhaps in the region where he resides, and in similar regions of the country.

By Matt Karhu (Matt_k) on Wednesday, February 4, 2009 - 10:15 am:

Correction to my above comments: The word "seens" should be "seems".

By David Hiltunen (Davidcorrytontn) on Wednesday, February 4, 2009 - 05:19 pm:

So Matt and most of his friends agree that success can be what a person wishes for himself, and it is not always expressed by money and material things beyond what is needed for a comfortable and healthy life, and they think most of the people in this country are successful to the degree that satisfies their needs. So when they see people in need they willingly do what they can to help them. He also said this is a great country and what I portrayed in my Feb. 2 commentary seems to be prejudiced and is inaccurate except in the region where I reside, and in similar regions of the country. Matt thinks I made a adverse judgment or opinion formed beforehand without knowledge or examination of my facts. Cognitive Prejudice refers to what I believe is true, but is generally accepted to mean the process of thought that may offer a more complete theoretical explanation.Ethnocentrism is the tendency to look at the world primarily from the perspective of one's own culture. Affective Prejudice refers to what people like and dislike. Prejudice might be found in the attitudes by those who post here. My prejudiced has been researched extensively by my Psychologist and she generally come to the conclusion that arousal,personality,inter group interaction, and by learning there are much more stupid among us then I ever imagined! I am not calling you stupid Matt. This is a great country indeed. Above average I would say. Why question what made it this way.

By Matt Karhu (Matt_k) on Wednesday, February 4, 2009 - 08:30 pm:

David H. I'm sure you have sufficient knowledge of your facts. Your comments indicate your thoroughness, and your definition of prejudice is well done. However, it takes a lot of study to recognize regional areas where certain people seem to not generally agree with what most people consider to be satisfaction and success as described in my previous comments.

Thank you for reassuring me that I am not stupid. (I, my parents, teachers, professors, and local government and corporate management and board members were aware of this.)

By David Soumis (Davesou) on Wednesday, February 4, 2009 - 10:46 pm:

at least your management sees the truth unlike my management that thinks anyone not a manager is stupid. They have a point though, unless you would prefer to get paid hourly and receive extra pay for working extra hours, unlike those smart management types that get to work 60 hours a week for the same pay.

By Matt Karhu (Matt_k) on Thursday, February 5, 2009 - 08:27 am:

David S. makes a good point, and anyone who works extra hours deserves to be paid well. Careers in management that began in the 60's has paid off very well for those of us who retired from one company after 30+ years of fulfilling employment. Because of wise corporate management and boards of directors, we enjoy generous retirement benefits that are not affected by the recession. I wish the same were true for all hard-working people in this country.

By Eugene Zuverink (Zube) on Thursday, February 5, 2009 - 04:24 pm:

Now we got it figured out, why the Democrats don't care if they raise taxes, ( they don't pay them anyway). Yes change is in the air.
Maybe President Obama could just ask all the people in congress to check there freezers to see if they each had a couple hundred thousand dollars that got put there by accident, I here that happened to a congressman in New Orleans, It's just a thought

By Heikki (Heikki) on Tuesday, February 10, 2009 - 11:45 am:

A timely reminder.....

By Tom (Tom) on Tuesday, February 10, 2009 - 04:11 pm:

Heikki, I am glad you posted that link to see/hear those debates between Milton Friedman and Phil Donahue and those with Ayn Rand. I met Friedman several times during my days with the Illinois Economics Association. He deigned to speak to us at our annual convention some years ago. He is one dude you don't want to debate with------very sharp.
I must go through all the links on that site. They are really good. Thanks.

By Rowdy (Roudymi) on Tuesday, May 5, 2009 - 08:49 am:

I see Otha is spewing the "PARTY" line in the commencement speech he gave. If that guy in charge manages a second term you'll be working on the collective. Unless of course he can manage it this term.

By a m hill (Lvcamnotes) on Thursday, May 7, 2009 - 08:13 pm:

well, i think that all voters in the 2009
presidential election should be extremely proud of their
choice. so far, obama has been living up to
his promises meticulously. and what is more
exciting, is that the best is yet to come.

By Rowdy (Roudymi) on Saturday, May 9, 2009 - 01:48 pm:

Yes, I understand black is the new white, up will hensforth be down, and yada yada yada.... Read the Federalist papers

By Matt Karhu (Matt_k) on Thursday, May 14, 2009 - 10:17 am:

Is not patience a virtue? My career in the corporate and local government world taught that thoughtful planning, compromise, and patience are required to achieve realistic goals. Will it not take time for Obama's handling of the crises faced by the U.S. to show results?

By David Hiltunen (Davidcorrytontn) on Thursday, May 14, 2009 - 02:15 pm:

I think we are seeing results and this will be next! Your kids may not be able to use the swing set anymore, may be too dangerous. You may not be able to buy a TV that hangs on the wall because it might fall on your kid and break his head. I heard talk about taxing sugars next.
If they get national health care, it is the entree to controlling every aspect of your life, because they will be able to say and attach every behavior to some health malady or health risk. Arlen Specter, the senior Pennsylvania senator, became a Democrat, potentially adding one more vote. At the White House lobbyists for doctors, insurers and other industry groups pledged to reduce the growth of medical spending. Yet none of these developments has removed the main hurdle to health care reform which is the matter of the missing $90 billion!

By Matt Karhu (Matt_k) on Thursday, May 14, 2009 - 03:14 pm:

David, do you really believe everything that you hear and read and post on this site? Don't you believe in our constitutional rights as U.S. citizens? The U.S. Constitution and States Rights have and will continue to keep this country strong, and U.S. citizens free from the kind of oppression you suggest in your comments.

By David Hiltunen (Davidcorrytontn) on Thursday, May 14, 2009 - 04:37 pm:

Yes Matt I really do. I have fears that we will have no constitutional rights as a U.S. citizen much longer. I may or may not live to see them gone, but my grandchildren will I fear if we keep going along the road we are on now. It is foolish not to be concerned about such things,a government big enough to give you everything can get even bigger to take it away.

By David Soumis (Davesou) on Thursday, May 14, 2009 - 05:17 pm:

I'm not sure where this last couple of posts came from, and the missing 90 billion...what's that?

It wouldn't surprise me if things went as far as David H. stated. Too many people worrying about everyone else but themselves, getting into everyone's private business, passing laws based on concerns that shouldn't be concerning anyone but the people involved.

The insurance companies control a lot of what is going on. They do not want to have to assume the liability, so the tighter the rules, the less likely they have to pay out, and the more profits they make.

National healthcare, although I approve of it, can do exactly as DH points out. The governmnet can base a lot of things on your health condition, and they have all the records and know everything about you, all the time, everyone. They can get the information now as well, but I think they still need a warrant to secure most of it, or do they with the Patriot Act?

By Heikki (Heikki) on Thursday, May 14, 2009 - 07:11 pm:

I think both Davids' comments have merit. The largest insurance companies are working with the administration, which may pose a threat to smaller companies, thereby reducing competition. We've had 'health activists' for many years now, trying to dictate our lifestyles. That's not all bad, but it does interfere with individual freedom. It's a short jump from there to enacting laws regulating almost every aspect of our lives in the name of controlling health care costs. Almost anything slightly dangerous or perceived to be unhealthy would either be illegal or cause for greatly increasing insurance premiums. This may be inevitable, however, no matter which party is in power. It's basic economics....fewer young, healthier people vs. longer-living older folks needing more care. The money and services will be spread out thin if we don't want those costs to represent the lion's share of our living expenses. It won't be a good deal no matter who runs the show, except service MIGHT be better under private enterprise. We are being 'Europeanized' whether we like it or not.

By David Hiltunen (Davidcorrytontn) on Friday, May 15, 2009 - 01:10 pm:

David S. it's the struggle to find $90 billion a year to make Obama's health care overhaul happen because of the fact the industry bigshot's have promised $2 trillion in cost cuts that will never happen,

By Eugene Zuverink (Zube) on Saturday, May 16, 2009 - 10:32 am:

We talk about General Motors and chrysler going bankrupt, this country for sure is bankrupt. This guy is talking about health care and then there talking about social security,medicare and medicade cutbacks, and it will be broke in a few years? We don't have the money to fund any of these projects, BUT! we can always find money somewhere for other countries. Like David said our children and grandchildren will suffer.
They will be paying 50 to 60 percent taxes some day. This country can NEVER pay the debt it owes now, So he wants to put another burden on the taxpayers with healthcare

By David Soumis (Davesou) on Saturday, May 16, 2009 - 10:51 am:

the only way to get things under control is to quit spending. It works in your perosnal life, and it will work in the big picture.

Quit spending, get our butts out of Afghanistann and Iraq, where we're spending billions on top of the 550 billion defense budget. Trim everyhing to as low as it can go and still function. We have to maintain our miltary for defensive purposes, not offensive.

Quit spending on unneeded pork. Only spend on what is absolutely necessary to maintain the infrastructure.

The people need to learn to live within their means. No more Mcmansions for people making 50k a year. Maybe they should be in a 3 bedroom, one story ranch .. you know 1600 sq feet instead of 4000. Cars that get better gas mileage, although if we start buying less gas, the oil companies will just raise the price so they maintain their profits...so that gives us more incentive to find alternative fuels. Solar power...reduce the demand on the power grid. Wind turbines, etc.

Social Security money and medicare should be spent on that, not used as a slush fund for everything else. If our government hadn't been pulling out the cash in these programs, there would be enough forever. They have squandered our retirement future, just like they are now throwing away billions by giving it to the greedy banks and financial sector. They are killing America, selling it to foreign investors. They've even sold roads to foreign countries in Indiana and elsewhere, and to private firms.

What is wrong with these idiots running this country? It didn't start with Bush..its been going on for a long time. Global market.

By Tom (Tom) on Saturday, May 16, 2009 - 12:03 pm:

One of the problems with national health in the US is the fact that there aren't enough doctors or other medical staff to service another 40million people. The result will be longer waiting time to see a doctor. Emergency rooms will the be alternative to long waits. ERs are darn busy today taking care of the uninsured and they will be busy with everyone running in for care.
In this area we see immigrants in the ERs for rather minor problems. No insurance for a family doctor so they go to the ER.
I read that many of the movers and shakers of this country preferred banks and auto companies to fail rather than bail them out. Now it is too late to undo the ongoing process.

By Eugene Zuverink (Zube) on Saturday, May 16, 2009 - 05:12 pm:

Why would we even want this type of health care. Canada has it,and yet some come here for quicker service and pay out of there own pocket.
This kind of health care would cause doctors to quit. We would have less doctors and longer lines.Just plain stupid on Obamas part. David S every thing you said is true.
If congress would put the trillions back in to the Social Security fund they took out, it would be secure. Sounds like misappoopriation of funds to me. It was taken out of our ckeck for SS, not any thing else.

By Eddie Allen (Glocktologist21) on Monday, May 18, 2009 - 07:38 pm:

A lot of good points brought up here about nationalized health care...With all being said, the government can't even keep up funding on a simple program that gives people $40.00 coupons to buy digital TV converter boxes...How do you expect them to properly handle a funded health care system that costs 200 times that much per year? Do you trust them? I don't....

By Eugene Zuverink (Zube) on Tuesday, May 19, 2009 - 08:17 pm:

Gasoline, here we go again. They blamed Bush for high prices before because he is and oil man.
So let's see what Obama WILL do about the prices.
Summer is coming people will be driving more, so the oil and gas companys say let's nail them.
Gas has gone up about 40 cents here in just a short time, it's at 2.49 here in Wayland Mi. and we sure can count on 3.00 by summertime for no good reason. Obama should order them all in front of congress for some tuff questions,he did it with the auto industries and he should do the same with these guys. you think it will happen?

By Russell E. Emmons (Russemmons) on Tuesday, June 23, 2009 - 02:19 am:

A novel idea: Congressmen should wear uniforms like NASCAR drivers so we can identify their corporate sponsors.

By David Soumis (Davesou) on Tuesday, June 23, 2009 - 07:07 am:

we would have to elect those who weigh over 500 pounds so all the signs would fit.

GREEN PARTY ... no corporate sponsors

By Eugene Zuverink (Zube) on Tuesday, June 23, 2009 - 10:47 am:

Now Obama is putting some clamps on the tobbaco industrie, thats good, but why does he have to have control of everything. Again,I wish he would stick his nose into the gas and oil industrie,but that will never happen.
Good idea Russell, you to David

By Matt Karhu (Matt_k) on Thursday, June 25, 2009 - 09:57 am:

David S. makes a lot of sense in his May 16 commentary. However, those of us who lived within our means all of our lives, invested wisely, have fully funded corporate retirement benefits with profitable companies, and maintain good health, are relatively unaffected by the downturns in the economy and government programs that cater to certain sections of the population. We didn't rely on the U.S. govenment for our retirement future.

Common sense and good genes work well together.

By Iron Range Dave (Blackhawk) on Thursday, June 25, 2009 - 04:11 pm:

Sorry Eugene but I guess I'll revive my info on the oil companies so called fleecing of America for you. The oil companies if I remember correctly make approx. 8 cents on every dollar invested. Some people think that is a really large amount of money and in Exxon Mobil's case it is but remember they are the largest company in the world. If you think the oil companies are fleecing you just remember that they are actually in the middle of the pack at 8 cents on every dollar. The food and beverage industry far out distances them at approx. 20 to 22 cents on every dollar so who's really taking your money. Next in line would be the pharmaceuticals at about 18 cents on the dollar. I do work for one of the so called big 5 oil companies but those big 5 actually only control 5 percent of the world's oil supply, OPEC nations control far more and can influence the price way more than any of the five majors in this country. My company, British Petroleum (BP for short) actually is one of the largest investors and providers of solar electricity in the world. Yep we rely on oil but our leaders call themselves an energy company, not an oil company. I buy the same gas as you and pay the same for it. Would I like it to cost less, yes but the reality is with developing nations and their appetite for oil we are at the whims of the market and the speculators. I'll put a sorry plug in for BP here, my company uses all north american provided crude for its refineries in the US. We do not rely on middle eastern oil so if you want help out buy the BP gas. It's a little more expensive typically but it comes from right here in North America.

By David Soumis (Davesou) on Thursday, June 25, 2009 - 09:39 pm:

Wasn't BP a big player in Mid East oil ?
actually they still are.

By David Soumis (Davesou) on Thursday, June 25, 2009 - 09:45 pm:

Matt K is right on...if you've planned correctly, the trends don't affect your nestegg as much. You can ride out the downturns, and you won;t need Social Security. How many of us are in that position? Probably not a real high precentage of Americans.

One thing that has and is happening, however, is that there have been a lot of companies that have stopped pension plans, taken away healthcare, etc for retirees. My employer has stopped 401K matching. We still have a pension, but will it continue?

By Iron Range Dave (Blackhawk) on Friday, June 26, 2009 - 09:25 am:

Correct David, they are a big player in the Middle East, but not for their gasoline sold here in the states. All BP refineries in the US use oil from North America whether the Gulf of Mexico, North Slope, Canada, or Texas. I must not have been clear in my post I guess.

By Cindy Barga (Hoosiergirl) on Saturday, June 27, 2009 - 07:06 am:

My husband works for Whirlpool. They have froze pensions and stopped 401K match for the time being. It is very hard to plan for that. He has worked there for 24 years.

By Eddie Allen (Glocktologist21) on Sunday, June 28, 2009 - 03:12 pm:

Cindy, sorry to hear that. Peace and God's blessing be with you and your family in tough times.

I think it would be safe to say that alot of us are feeling that crunch as employers cut way back. My company only matches about 3% of your monthly contribution as it is so it's not like I'm gonna miss much if they decide to stop doing it. Pension is still in place but the amount projected for the time that I want to retire only leaves me with a measly $10,470 a year from the company. Not to mention that I haven't actually had a raise in nearly 10 years...Sorry GM workers, no pity here!

I'm not complaining,though. It doesn't make or break what I'm doing or change my course.

Matt K. has hit it directly on the head. You have to sacrifice in order to save elsewhere. People look and shake their heads at me because I make enough to drive a very nice new vehicle yet I keep driving used ones...A couple of well used ones at that.
We live in a house that I feel is a crappy house when, sure we could live in a big huge new house for about $700-800 a month more than our current mortgage.
Some think we're real tightwads in a way, but you know what?...That crappy house will be paid for in 2011 and the Michigan lake property has the house and garage completed and all will be done and paid for on it well before we retire and I still got 8 more years to work...

Point is, it can be done and as Matt K. was saying, you have to live within your means...Even it hurts sometimes!...
I know that those of you that still have kids that are yet to go to college and what not but know this!...Your kids are your best investment and you better treat them right because they're the ones that will determine which nursing home you will spend your days in later on down the line!

All kidding aside, I've known some that say: "You only live once" or "I'm not here for a long time, just a good time"....but have you ever stopped to think that you may live a real long time, like say 90-100 years?...It could happen. It pays to work to be able to support yourself when you become too old to work and not be able to.... Peace....

By Eugene Zuverink (Zube) on Tuesday, June 30, 2009 - 09:43 am:

Iron Range Dave, That all sounds very interesting, but very hard to understand to the consumer.
I just read there is going to be a spike is gasoline and deisel in a couple days.
In my town it is $2.64, 16 miles south in Plainwell it is $2.37 and 14 miles north of my town at Speedway it is @2.69. This little town of Plainwell at Meijers and Admiral it is always cheaper. If my information is right Speedway sets the prices here in Michigan. They always have the highest prices around here.
What other product do we use that goes up and down and up and down like gasoline.
Not to long ago, oil went up and gasoline went down, strange.zube

By Thomas Baird (Thomas) on Saturday, July 4, 2009 - 06:13 pm:

I am responding to a 4:12 p.m. posting on the 4th of July, 2009 What's-UP page. Instead of looking at this 4th of July as the end of the U.S. as we know it, we should use it to rejuvenate, with the help of God, the Spirit of 1776, and stand up against all the tyrannies, domestic as well as foreign, that threaten the U.S.

By Deb S. (Usedtobeayooper) on Saturday, July 4, 2009 - 06:16 pm:

I'll 2nd that!!! We will overcome!!!

By Thomas Baird (Thomas) on Saturday, July 4, 2009 - 06:21 pm:

Hey Deb. What comes after 75? If you said 76, that's the Spirit (of 1776, that is). We CAN'T give up on the good ol' U.S.A.

By FJL (Langoman) on Tuesday, September 1, 2009 - 12:03 pm:

Before he died last week, Ted Kennedy had asked Massachusetts lawmakers to change state laws to let the governor name an interim appointee to serve until voters can choose a permanent replacement. Massachusetts law does not allow an interim appointee.
Just five years ago, Democrats changed the law to block then-Gov Mitt Romney from naming a fellow Republican to fill the seat if Kerry, the Democrats presidential nominee, won his White House campaign.
Before that change the gov. was allowed to appoint a nominee until the next general election. As part of the change, Democratic lawmakers also blocked the possibility of Romney naming an interim senator.....
The hypocrisy of Kennedy and the Democrats is beyond comprehension.....

By Tom (Tom) on Wednesday, September 2, 2009 - 10:27 am:

Yes, FJL, I wonder at those elected officials in Mass. Change the law to meet their goals. Sure makes a mockery of our legal system.
There is an anti-Ted blurb going around these days.
Points out some not so nice things about the man.
The communication with the USSR is quite stunning.
I guess people see what they want to see and forget the negative comments.

By Richard Wieber (Dickingrayling) on Wednesday, September 2, 2009 - 10:00 pm:

FJL----I recently received an e-mail (and then lost it) that pointed out the fact that all the people in congress and senate and the elected adminisration folks in total were about 545 people. These 545 people totally run this country and in my mind have run it into the ground. Both Dems. and Reps.. I plan to try to vote out of office every one of them. This election only effects a part of the scoundrels but if we dump them we may get the attention of all the rest. If that doesn't work we will dump the rest of them next election. We must take our country back!!

By Gustaf O. Linja (Gusso) on Wednesday, September 2, 2009 - 11:36 pm:

Welll, all those White House folks keep telling us we got ta bite the bullet, but you don't see any of them giving up anything, as a matter of fact they are always looking for more.

By David Soumis (Davesou) on Thursday, September 3, 2009 - 07:01 am:

Dickingrayling ... and all
I've been saying that for quite a few years. The problem, the majority of Americans don't have the balls to vote for an alternative, say the Green Party or even independents. They always end up voting for one of the major party candidates.

They are but a handful of members of Congress right now that deserve to be there, Russ Feingold of Wisconsin is one and Dennis Kucinich come to mind right away.

The rest should be run out of town and slammed into prison for stealing America.

By 4WDGreg (4wdgreg) on Friday, September 25, 2009 - 09:04 pm:

Here's some positive economic news that I think we will all be happy to hear:


"The Conference Board Leading Economic Index™ (LEI) for the U.S. increased 0.6 percent in August, following a 0.9 percent gain in July, and a 0.8 percent rise in June. "

"Since reaching a peak in July 2007, the LEI fell for twenty months – the longest downtrend since the mid 1970s – but it has been rising since April and its gains have become very widespread," says Ataman Ozyildirim, Economist at The Conference Board. "
Says Ken Goldstein, Economist at The Conference Board: "The LEI has risen for five consecutive months and the coincident economic index has stopped falling. Taken together, this suggests that the recession is bottoming out. These numbers are consistent with the view that after a very severe downturn, a recovery is very near. But, the intensity and pattern of that recovery is more uncertain."

By Shirley Waggoner (Shirlohio) on Saturday, January 23, 2010 - 10:06 am:

Thank goodness for Scott Brown......looks like he's 'saved' us from the 'savior'! (and I use that term loosely)

By FJL (Langoman) on Saturday, January 23, 2010 - 11:18 am:

That's right Shirley.........The "Awakening has started."

By Eddie Allen (Glocktologist21) on Saturday, January 23, 2010 - 06:11 pm:

****Thank goodness for Scott Brown......looks like he's 'saved' us from the 'savior'! (and I use that term loosely)****

That's correct Shirley, it is a breath of fresh air, however, there is still a lot of work to be done!...

People are waking up and taking notice to the facist movement on the Left...For years, the term "facism" as labeled to the far Right and everyone had tried to label the Bush Admin. as being "authoritarian" in trying to maintain order in the event of a terrorist outbreak on our soil...

Boy, how far we've sure come in one short year... The B.O. administration had been hammering day and night to force so called "social transformation" and progressive taxation tactics and attempting to pry into peoples' private lives and opposing anyone who speaks out (can you say Fox News?)....

It isn't over until the zealot Demoncrats are ousted as the majority rule in both the House and Senate...Then if history repeats itself as it did in the Nov. 1994 elections, B.O. will have to come just left of center on his policies just as Clinton did and then...and only then will the checks and balances will be back in place to get the country back on the right track...

Unfortunately, I believe B.O. is too staunch to give in like Clinton and if the Right wing has control over the House and Senate, B.O. will go down in flames looking like a retard...and quite frankly, he don't look very bright as it is...but wait there's more:

"IF"....and that's still a big IF...healthcare gets resolved or perishes, which ever the case may be, the Demoncrats will be pushing hard as a last ditch effort in the second half of the year to reform immigration and attempt to get a path to citizenship for illegal immigrants to attempt to bolster their voting numbers...you heard it here....watch and see....So just keep praying!.....Peace!...

By Shirley Waggoner (Shirlohio) on Sunday, January 24, 2010 - 10:59 am:

Thank you, JFL and Eddie, for your input(s)....it's always refreshing to know that there are folks like you still 'out there'! Sorta thought when I posted yesterday, that I might be left flapping in the wind all by myself!:) And yes, Eddie, I think prayer is what's got us this far, so we must keep it up!

By Shirley Waggoner (Shirlohio) on Sunday, January 24, 2010 - 11:04 am:

FJL, sorry I mixed up your 'name' letters.:] I'm not really dislexic.....yet.

By Richard Wieber (Dickingrayling) on Sunday, January 24, 2010 - 12:41 pm:

I have been trying to figure how to make a bumper sticker that conveyed the message "If you are driving foreign-don't complain about the economy". Too big for a bumper sticker, I'm afraid.

By David Hiltunen (Davidcorrytontn) on Sunday, January 24, 2010 - 01:22 pm:

Good day voters of America. Just want to let you all know I come to Pasty every day to read all that is being posted,here,main & what's up page. With those of you who think as I do,I thank you. At times I thought I was a Lone Wolf here on the right,& took a lot of heat even when this was done on the what's up page.

Unless I missed it,I have not read here where anyone who voted for BO is now sorry. Many of us knew what BO was. We did our homework & offered anyone to cheat off us for a learning experience so you need not learn the hard way after it is to late.I myself don't like to scramble for damage control so I take time to prevent it with quality.control. Quality control needs to be done without your emotions getting in your way. Ask not what your government can do for you, ask what you can do for your government.. it is yours & mine. Our tax dollars government uses for what it wants, so don't feel bad if you can not afford to send money deep from with in your pocket to the Earthquake relief fund, your government robbed you while you were sleeping & did that for you. If you want you can give more, by yourself.We are still allowed to do that.On the note of taxes, the little girl on the Morton salt can is going to be attacked like Joe Camel,the Marlboro man,like all other things that you are told is no good for you.

By Shirley Waggoner (Shirlohio) on Monday, January 25, 2010 - 08:47 am:

Good post, David. About being a "Lone Wolf", I've known that feeling but I believe more and more folks are becoming bolder and speaking out, not only in 'words' but as the good people of Massachusetts showed us, speaking loudly with their votes! "Live Free or Die"!

By Russell E. Emmons (Russemmons) on Saturday, February 6, 2010 - 08:26 pm:

Regards "Awakening", check this out from our British friends:

Why do people vote against their own interests?

By David Hiltunen (Davidcorrytontn) on Sunday, February 7, 2010 - 12:23 pm:

Ask not what your Country can do for you, ask what you can do for your Country.

By Rowdy (Roudymi) on Wednesday, March 3, 2010 - 10:09 am:

Author just want us to also wallow in their misery. Article was written by a person with blinders on.

By David Hiltunen (Davidcorrytontn) on Tuesday, March 23, 2010 - 12:12 am:

I reckon if I voted for him I would not have much to say on here either.. So many of us was doing all we could to fill you in about this man, cause you did not want to do your home work, & you would not even let us do that for you. U ought to be ashamed, or is that why you are not posting nice thing here any longer??

By FJL (Langoman) on Tuesday, March 23, 2010 - 09:21 am:

Yes, the silence is deafening....It's a 100% Democratic health care package. The Obama voters should be overjoyed.........

By David Hiltunen (Davidcorrytontn) on Tuesday, March 23, 2010 - 12:07 pm:

All the voters in the U.P. should be very proud of Bart Stupak..

By FJL (Langoman) on Tuesday, March 23, 2010 - 05:22 pm:

Why??? Let's see what other goodies he received besides a promise on abortion.

He would have voted yes anyway.....

By Eddie Allen (Glocktologist21) on Wednesday, March 24, 2010 - 12:27 pm:

It's not just sweetheart deals and back room politics with a handshake and a cheesy piece of paper...
Some were pressured through intimidation as well...threats of lack of support in the November mid-term and threats of loss of chairmanship, too...

By FJL (Langoman) on Wednesday, March 24, 2010 - 04:06 pm:

Rep. John Dingell, (D-Mi) - It will take a while for Obama Care to "control the people."
A slip of the tongue perhaps about the true meaning of the health care package..........

By David Hiltunen (Davidcorrytontn) on Saturday, March 27, 2010 - 11:08 am:

and he said there are 300 people who need health care.

By Marianne Y (Marianne) on Saturday, March 27, 2010 - 11:56 am:

I caught that one, David H. I choked when I heard it.

And yes, heard the "control the people" line, too. What are these guys up to, a N Korean style dictatorship, or something?

By Deb S. (Usedtobeayooper) on Saturday, March 27, 2010 - 06:18 pm:

As David said, many of us tried to "warn" others about what was going to happen. Now they have to live with it. Unfortunately, so do the rest of us!!!!

By JimH (Jhattica) on Sunday, April 11, 2010 - 06:52 am:

Vote all incumbents out of office. Start over on health care reform and try to fix it without penalizing the currently insured.

By David Hiltunen (Davidcorrytontn) on Sunday, April 11, 2010 - 01:16 pm:

I am most positive this off year election will rid all incumbents of there seats, and we will see a more conservative swing to begin to understand we need to lessen the size of our government & reduce entitlements, before this snake starts eating it's own tail..

By Eugene Zuverink (Zube) on Tuesday, April 13, 2010 - 03:20 pm:

Now after 14 months of "CHANGE" with this "MASTER" we have and the debt we have, well you have to consider we do own the auto industrie and some banks some mortage companies. We didn't own all of this when George Bush was our President.Maybe Obama is doing pretty good,eh. But the economy was a whole lot better when George was in, the unemployment rate was not near what it is now, but some people still want to blame old George. From what we have now and what we are in for and what are children and grand children are in for, I will take George back if we could wipe everything off the books this Ruler has gotten us into in the last 14 months.

By Marianne Y (Marianne) on Tuesday, April 13, 2010 - 03:34 pm:

When the current President was running on his platform of "Change", I kept wondering exactly what kind of changes he meant to do. There's an old saying, to "Be careful what you wish for, because you just might get it". Well, too many people apparently wished for this unspecified change, and they sure got it. And now, the US will be paying for it for generations to come, if we are ever able to recover from it, ever!

I would revise one of Zube's statements, as my son would take real issue with it. We don't own ALL of the auto industry. My son works for Ford and is very proud that Ford has received no stimulous money at all. And, they have come back on their own, without government help. On the other hand, there is a new saying, that the former General Motors is now "Gov'ment Motors" (not from my son). :-)

By Eugene Zuverink (Zube) on Tuesday, April 13, 2010 - 10:53 pm:

I agree Marianne, Ford is making it on there own, and good for them. I could have said it different.

By David Hiltunen (Davidcorrytontn) on Wednesday, April 14, 2010 - 03:11 pm:

650 tea parties going on all over the place this Thursday. Watch on how the left wing press will report this..

By David Hiltunen (Davidcorrytontn) on Friday, April 23, 2010 - 11:33 pm:

Are there any better reasons then these top ten why you voted Democrat? If you can think of any more post them here.

10. I voted Democrat because I believe oil companies' profits of 4% on a gallon of gas are obscene but the government taxing the same gallon of gas at 15% isn't.

9. I voted Democrat because I believe the government will do a better job of spending the money I earn than I would.

8. I voted Democrat because Freedom of speech is fine as long as nobody is offended by it.... See More

7. I voted Democrat because I'm way too irresponsible to own a gun, and I know that my local police are all I need to protect me from murderers and thieves.

6. I voted Democrat because I believe that people who can't tell us if it will rain on Friday can tell us that the polar ice caps will melt away in ten years if I don't start driving a Prius.

5. I voted Democrat because I'm not concerned about the slaughter of millions of babies through abortion so long as we keep all death row inmates alive.

4. I voted Democrat because I think illegal aliens have a right to free health care, education, and Social Security benefits.

3. I voted Democrat because I believe that business should not be allowed to make profits for themselves. They need to break even and give the rest away to the government for redistribution as the democrats see fit.

2. I voted Democrat because I believe liberal judges need to rewrite the Constitution every few days to suit some fringe kooks who would never get their agendas past the voters.

1. I voted Democrat because my head is so firmly planted up my ••• it's unlikely that I'll ever have another point of view.

By Thomas Baird (Thomas) on Saturday, April 24, 2010 - 09:02 am:

Thank God this is an election year to wipe Congress clean (or close to it) of incumbents who are legislating liberty away. BTW, if you think national health care alone will be a financial burden on us, the Senate is going to start taking up cap & tax on Monday, which if passed, God forbid, will raise utility bills, force us to use only non-incandescent light bulbs and certain types of washing machines, and if we can only own electric cars, the higher the electric bills. This is just the tip of the ice berg. Nobody will be able to afford anything, literally, and I see America's future that will make the 1930's depression look like child's play. Wake up, America! The more government the less liberty! To really get the point across, 1 of the cable channels needs to show the 1987 miniseries Amerika. It's out of date in some ways, but I think there's enough to send a wake up call. You can also see excerpts of it on You Tube.

By Eddie Allen (Glocktologist21) on Saturday, April 24, 2010 - 01:41 pm:

David, I think you pretty much covered it, unless you want to simply add:
...I voted Democrat because BIGGER is BETTER when it comes to the size of our Government...

Thomas, Crap & Tax is starting but in response to Arizona's crackdown down on illegal immigrant border security, you can bet Congress will move quickly in a special session to initiate a federal law to thwart their efforts to declare what they're doing as being: "unconstitutional"....

By a m hill (Lvcamnotes) on Saturday, April 24, 2010 - 05:56 pm:

d hiltunen,
too bad we couldn't have a david and david
show (hiltunen and letterman).

By a m hill (Lvcamnotes) on Saturday, April 24, 2010 - 06:42 pm:

yes, thomas and eddie,
in addition to cap and tax ---
obama's effort towards immigration reform will also be very expensive for all of us -- of
course immigration reform will crash the
healthcare reform.

By David Hiltunen (Davidcorrytontn) on Monday, April 26, 2010 - 01:16 pm:

Watch out Arizona they are coming after you. Re-fried beans anyone?

By FJL (Langoman) on Wednesday, April 28, 2010 - 08:40 am:

From a post on Jan. 22, 09..
"Thanks Jarmo. Many of us respect Pres. Obama for his intelligence, LACK OF ARROGANCE, and commitement to core values.I said this in thinking over why I am so happy with our new Prez."

I have never seen anyone as arrogant as this President is.

I wonder what her thinking about that is today?? Waiting for her reply........

By a m hill (Lvcamnotes) on Wednesday, April 28, 2010 - 05:30 pm:

fjl, gee -- i remember that comment -- and i was
shocked at the time

By Eugene Zuverink (Zube) on Thursday, April 29, 2010 - 10:39 am:

The Feds are not doing anything, so let Arizona do it's thing. Good for them. Maybe Texas is next. "Calefornia" should have done this years ago. If they could get ALL these illegals back to there home country, THEN maybe our health care would go down.

By Eddie Allen (Glocktologist21) on Thursday, April 29, 2010 - 11:57 am:

Texas should be next...It is estimated that nearly 40% of "all" crime here in Harris county of those arrested for those crimes is been found to be by illegal immigrants...

The estimated locked up illegal immigrants in just our county jail system alone is estimated to be nearly 12,000...

Can you blame Arizona? When will people have enough of immigrant gang activity, drug running, people smuggling, unlicensed / uninsured drivers, wrecks because of people who cannot read street signs or follow roadways and lanes correctly...These are just a few examples...

People that enter the country illegally under cover not only break laws just sneaking in but continue to break other laws to hide their identity and obligates others who hide them out to break laws as well. Where do you draw the line???

By a m hill (Lvcamnotes) on Thursday, April 29, 2010 - 08:30 pm:

particularly, i might support an action that
would allow illegal entrants into the us to
be transferred to the very receptive centers
of illegal entrants -->
san francisco and new york --> or any other
receptive area willing to step up to their
humanitarian duty -- but please send the
bill to mexico or where ever the entrants
come from.

By Deb S. (Usedtobeayooper) on Monday, May 3, 2010 - 06:56 pm:

I think no matter what maija says, she will be wrong. She gets picked on all the time. Why can't you just leave her alone?? She's entitled to her opinion, as we all are.

By FJL (Langoman) on Tuesday, May 4, 2010 - 08:23 am:

You are correct. Everyone is entitled to have an opinion. But when that opinion is formed as a statement,then it is open to criticism.

The arrogance this President has reminded me of that statement. Just wondering if after one and a half years in office her opinion has changed.

Now saying he is arrogant is my opinion...It's a statement and is open to debate......FJL

By Tom (Tom) on Tuesday, May 4, 2010 - 09:00 am:

What surprises me is how many of the contributors on this page are on the conservative side. Has all their commentary caused the others to not state their opinions for fear of being belittled? It is good to hear/read the rational for various sides to an issue. I am not suggesting that those who do contribute now should be quiet---------just that opposing views should be here, too.

By Eugene Zuverink (Zube) on Tuesday, May 4, 2010 - 09:40 am:

Tom I think the "OTHERS" are a little taken back by things they did say, that there is nothing good they can say about this administration. I think they are having "buyers remorse".

By a m hill (Lvcamnotes) on Tuesday, May 4, 2010 - 06:56 pm:

come along, yoopers. let's hear what is good
about prez obama and administration. i, for one,
am looking for something constructive and good
for the people. haven't seen much yet.

and the situation along the southern us border --
could this be a more acute problem with the
passage of 2010 healthcare?

By Tom (Tom) on Wednesday, May 5, 2010 - 10:46 am:

I agree with your buyers remorse comment. I guess at this time if I was an Obama supporter I, too, would be silent for a while-----waiting for something positive to happen from all this spending.
Hard to say something positive about it.

By FRNash/PHX, AZ (Frnash) on Wednesday, May 5, 2010 - 01:19 pm:

I'm not quite ready yet to say "I told ya so", but we seem to be on track!

From before the November 2008 election, By FRNash/PHX, AZ (Frnash):
1. … on Tuesday, October 14, 2008 - 04:14 pm:
2. … on Wednesday, October 22, 2008 - 12:24 am
3. … on Wednesday, November 5, 2008 - 01:18 pm:

By Tom (Tom) on Thursday, May 6, 2010 - 09:30 am:

FRN: What do the people in your area think of the AZ law regarding illegal immigrants? That should be an interesting topic on this site.
I read that Texas and Colorado are two other states considering similar legislation.
Had a chat with a friend of mine while exercising in the therapy pool here in GB-----he was wondering why some people have such a difficult time with the word illegal.

By Tom (Tom) on Thursday, May 6, 2010 - 09:33 am:

By the way yesterday I was informed by the State of Illinois department that is responsible for overseeing medical insurance to retirees. Many items in our insurance have gone up. Mostly the out-of-pocket costs. One jumped from $3000 to $9000. Now, what do you suppose caused that? Could it be partially be due to the new Health Care program??? I think so.

By Eugene Zuverink (Zube) on Thursday, May 6, 2010 - 09:41 am:

Frnash, I can not find any of those dates you posted. I would like to read them, to see what your thinking was then.

By Eugene Zuverink (Zube) on Thursday, May 6, 2010 - 09:51 am:

Tom that sounds just like the begining of this whole mess. Tighten your saftey belt, I think were all in for a rough ride unless it can be reversed some how. Some one has to pay for these people that sit on there porch that smoke cigs and drink beer all day, why do you have to work if our great leader says someone else will pay for you.

By FRNash/PHX, AZ (Frnash) on Thursday, May 6, 2010 - 12:42 pm:

Eugene Zuverink (Zube):
"Frnash, I can not find any of those dates you posted. I would like to read them, to see what your thinking was then."

You can't find them?
Did you click on the links? They seem to work for me.

By FRNash/PHX, AZ (Frnash) on Thursday, May 6, 2010 - 12:57 pm:

Tom (Tom):
FRN: What do the people in your area think of the AZ law regarding illegal immigrants? That should be an interesting topic on this site."

I have heard of polls showing at least 60-70% approval.

IMHO it has nothing at all to do with "ethnicity", it's all about illegal entry into the US, with coyotes smuggling "illegal entrants", others smuggling drugs, Perhaps terrorists slipping across the border as well; as long as the border is so poorly controlled, who knows?

Quite a good percentage of American citizens of Mexican heritage, who got here legally, are likewise none too thrilled about the illegal traffic.

By Eddie Allen (Glocktologist21) on Thursday, May 6, 2010 - 01:48 pm:

It's clear that you wouldn't let a known felon for bank fraud, forgery, theft, or indecent exposure run around unwarranted, so why wouldn't you arrest or deport an illegal immigrant inside this country?

Not saying that these people are violent offenders or something...we've got enough of those. and there are plenty of hispanic violent offenders for sure.

People want change from this melee of gang bangers and drug runners!...Can you blame them?

By Marianne Y (Marianne) on Thursday, May 6, 2010 - 02:33 pm:

The whole AZ illegal immigration bill has me angry. Yes, they are totally right to pass and sign the bill! It is just writing the federal law into state law, since the feds won't enforce, they should be able to as a state.

FRNash, I have said for years that terrorists can cross just as easily as Mexicans. Why bother trying to come in from Canada, when you can just slip across the southern border from Mexico. Some of the Central American gangs are incredibly violent.

Ironically, Mexico very forcibly enforces their southern borders, and the crimes are felonies, unlike here in the US. Yet, the President of Mexico is fussing about the AZ law, violating human rights, etc? Give me a break!

By a m hill (Lvcamnotes) on Thursday, May 6, 2010 - 06:02 pm:

frnash and zube, the links work -- right on.
don't know how you did that, frnash.

i, too, would like to hear significant news
from arizona

By FRNash/PHX, AZ (Frnash) on Thursday, May 6, 2010 - 10:21 pm:

a m hill (Lvcamnotes):
"don't know how you did that, frnash."

Posting the links is easy, getting the addresses (URLs) of those posts is much more of a challenge! {smile}

By David Hiltunen (Davidcorrytontn) on Tuesday, August 24, 2010 - 12:18 pm:

"A wise and frugal government ... shall restrain men from injuring one another, shall leave them otherwise free to regulate their own pursuits of industry and improvement, and shall not take from the mouth of labor the bread it has earned. This is the sum of good government." --Thomas Jefferson

By Eugene Zuverink (Zube) on Wednesday, September 26, 2012 - 03:51 pm:

Here we are four years later. George Bush was run into the ground. Now with tis
new guy, whats his name, oh ya Obama. I wonder what the people that were so against Bush have to say about Obama.
Six trillion more in debt, unemployment over 8% and it really is around 13-14%. And I can not understand the American people want another four years of this guy. And they say Bush was bad. It looks like the younger people will vote for Obama
because he is cool and cute, thats what they are saying. Wake up someone

By Deb S. (Usedtobeayooper) on Thursday, September 27, 2012 - 08:11 am:

I did not like Bush. Now I'd give my eye teeth to have him back in office. At least the guy loved his country. I don't think we can honestly say that about Obama. People don't seem to want to see what's happening before their own eyes. I did not vote for him. I will not vote for him again, though I think that's a mute point. We need to get through to the younger voters, and the women. That does not seem to be an easy feat.

My idea is to vote AGAINST every incumbent out there. Honestly, maybe THEN they'll get the idea that we want REAL CHANGE, and not the change we've been given.

Good Lord, let this come to an end!!

By Deb S. (Usedtobeayooper) on Thursday, September 27, 2012 - 08:12 am:

Sorry, misspelled moot!!!

By Eugene Zuverink (Zube) on Thursday, September 27, 2012 - 09:16 am:

Obama and his gang always are going back to Bush he did this and that and we inherented this mess.
Well if Obama gets back in who is he going to blame for the mess he will inherent. Whats he going to say, well the guy before me really messed up. Sure.

By Eugene Zuverink (Zube) on Thursday, September 27, 2012 - 06:46 pm:

Sorry "inherited" and "inherit" misspelled.

By FRNash/PHX, AZ (Frnash) on Thursday, September 27, 2012 - 10:50 pm:

From the last few posts, it looks like we're having a spelling bee here today.

At least y'all are correctin' your own mis-spellin's, so ol' "Perfesser" Nash doesn't have ta do it! <wink>

P.S.: Oh do I ever want to add a post here, but I'm going to have to take my time very carefully composing my message, lest it offend a whole bunch folks! That formidable task may take me a few days, but I'll try.

By Deb S. (Usedtobeayooper) on Thursday, September 27, 2012 - 10:56 pm:

We knew you'd be waiting in the wings to correct us, Frank :-)

Good luck with your post. We'll be waiting.....

By Eugene Zuverink (Zube) on Friday, September 28, 2012 - 09:58 am:

Come on now FRNash thats not fair "Get er done"

By FRNash/PHX, AZ (Frnash) on Friday, September 28, 2012 - 01:27 pm:

I have various writings scattered here and yon, I just have to gather my thoughts, organize 'em and apply some judicious editing. Today's a seriously busy day as well.

"Gather my thoughts …" now why does that bring to mind the image of an entomologist leaping through the fields with a butterfly net? <grin>

By kosk in Toronto (Koskintoronto) on Friday, September 28, 2012 - 08:33 pm:

Do your best FR. As I recently told my father, in a democracy we
have different opinions. If we didn't, we wouldn't be living in a
democracy. People whose opinions differ from ours are not "fools"
or "idiots," but fellow citizens. We need to hear them out and
consider how they came to hold the opinions they do. God bless us

By Deb S. (Usedtobeayooper) on Friday, September 28, 2012 - 09:37 pm:

Well said, Kosk!

By Eugene Zuverink (Zube) on Monday, October 1, 2012 - 02:10 pm:

The fact that we are here today to debate raising America's debt limit is a sign of leadership failure. It is a sign that the US government cannot payit's own bills.It is a sign that we now depend on ongoing financial assistance from foreign countries to finance our Government's reckless fiscal policies. Increasing America's dept weakens us domestically and internationally. Leadership means that,the buck stops here.Instead, Washington is shifting the burden of bad choices today onto the backs of our children and grandchildren. America has a debt problem and a failure of leadership. America deserves better. Senator Barack H Obama March 2006

By Waveaction (Lakelover) on Monday, October 1, 2012 - 04:17 pm:

You can say all you want but, I'm with FRNash, I don't want to offend anyone and I would. Silence is golden.

By Eugene Zuverink (Zube) on Monday, October 1, 2012 - 07:51 pm:

Come on Waveaction and FRNash lets here what Pasty cam people have to say about this election.Four years ago we got a lot of feelings.Lets see how this one is going, time is running out.

By Deb S. (Usedtobeayooper) on Monday, October 1, 2012 - 09:27 pm:

FRNash will have something to say when he's good and ready. We know that for sure.

I'm with you, Zube. I don't think that our opinions have changed since 4 years ago, which is probably why not much is being said. There's just nothing left to say. I doubt that most people could have predicted just how much worse off we are now than we were 4 years ago, but it's happened. I think that says it all.

There are definitely cases where silence is golden!

By David Soumis (Davesou) on Tuesday, October 2, 2012 - 06:35 am:

Vote for Jill Stein of the Green Party.
Look her up and her platform. Peace and sensibility for the country and the world. Green New Deal - put the country back to work.
ENOUGH of these corporate run lackeys ...
there are more choices than just Democrats and Republicans. Broaden your scope.

By Deb S. (Usedtobeayooper) on Tuesday, October 2, 2012 - 08:47 am:

Unfortunately Dave, at the point, you're wasting your vote when you vote for neither of the major parties because everybody knows they will not win. I'm hoping there comes a day in the very near future where you CAN vote for a different party and it WILL count. But right now, we all know that's impossible!! Just so sad.

By Eugene Zuverink (Zube) on Tuesday, October 2, 2012 - 09:41 am:

I agree that there are times where silence is golden Deb but FRNash and Waveaction clicked on this web sight for a reason so I wish they would give us there thinking. It is always nice to here someone else. Oh well I guess there won't be much discussion this time around. All I ask is you all vote for Mitt because the way we are going it is getting scary. There is no way it could get worse with Romney, no way. There is no good argument to keep Obama in. NONE!

By Diana P. (Diana) on Tuesday, October 2, 2012 - 11:58 am:

I am looking forward to watching the "debate" tomorrow night between Romney and Obama, and I sure hope that Mitt does well. Some in the media would like people to think that Obama is far ahead of Romney, but I don't believe that for a minute. We ALL need to vote ... and make our votes count!

By Deb S. (Usedtobeayooper) on Tuesday, October 2, 2012 - 07:22 pm:

I agree, Gene!!

By Eugene Zuverink (Zube) on Thursday, October 4, 2012 - 09:00 am:

Was Romney sharp last night, he told it like it is. Your President was lost and dull. I bet he was looking for a teleprompter.

Romney 1
Obama 0

By Heikki (Heikki) on Thursday, October 4, 2012 - 11:47 am:

Last night's debate was a teacher-student moment. That's what BHO gets for prepping with Joy Behar. He had better bone-up for the next one and stop playing the role of 'eye candy' on The View if he really wants to keep the same address for the next four years.

By FRNash/PHX, AZ (Frnash) on Thursday, October 4, 2012 - 04:10 pm:

Eugene Zuverink (Zube):
"Was Romney sharp last night, he told it like it is. Your President was lost and dull. I bet he was looking for a teleprompter."

Yes, Romney appeared to be more on his game than earlier in the campaign, when there were a number of times when it seemed as though one of his acquisitions while at Bain Capital must have been "Waffle House". [Waffle, waffle, waffle!]

Just a few points of interest that caught my attention:


Obama: "It's on the web site, you can look at all the numbers … " [Score one for Obama, if true; where are your numbers, Romney? -FRN]


Romney: [The discussion of a] "Trillion dollar deficit … " [Seemed to cause Obama a "deer in the headlights" moment. -FRN]


Romney on health care: "Craft a plan at the state level that fits the needs of the state …" [1. But the states are themselves already broke. 2. To heck with the "needs of the state(s)", how about the needs of the patients? -FRN]

All in all, though, it looked a bit more like a draw to me; more so than I expected. Certainly nothing earth shaking there though.

I was a bit disappointed and more than a little annoyed that neither of the candidates seemed willing or able to respect either the rules of the debate or the moderator's attempts to keep them on track. Perhaps a failure to anticipate this in the rules? Too little time allotted for the predictable behavior of the candidates? Should it have been a two hour debate? Still longer?
Eugene Zuverink (Zube) on Thursday, October 4, 2012 - 06:26 pm:

FRNash you can not be serious to say you thought it was a draw. Even the democratic news channels
were disapointed in Obama. MSNBC said some surprising things about Obama. Last nite Obama
was looking for a teleprompter. Also he was lost
for answers and he had nothing to defend. Today he was back on the trail hollaring to the top of his voice how he tried to pin Romney down several times, that never happened.The next debate will be
no different because he has not any thing to brag about. Can you come up with anything good he has
done for the American people. If Obama ask for Mitts tax returns Mitt can say your college records for my tax returns.I don't think Obama is looking forward to the next debate. I am stumped why anyone could back this President
You know what the numbers are since Obama came into office. Gas has more than doubled,unemployment has tripled, five and a half
trillion more in debt,46 million on food stamps.
and it's over and over. It is just a no brainer.
Today he came on with that southern accent again
where does he get that from,I thought he was born in Hawaii.

By FJL (Langoman) on Friday, October 5, 2012 - 09:34 am:

Not all states are bankrupt. Those that aren't have Republican Governors..........

I think that Frank and I were watching different debates.....

By Eugene Zuverink (Zube) on Friday, October 5, 2012 - 10:18 am:

I think I was watching the same debate you were watching"Langoman"

By Waveaction (Lakelover) on Friday, October 5, 2012 - 11:34 am:

“What is right?” is a question. “Who is right?” is an argument.

- Mark Amend -

By Nick Karjala (Nmkarjala) on Saturday, October 6, 2012 - 08:46 am:

Many people seem to forget that it is the U.S. Senate and House of Representatives who are primarily responsible for the success and failure of the proposed legislation that is of concern to most of the people. One of the candidates for the U.S. Senate for this part of Ohio is campaigning based on an old idea; that is, there has to be new people in the legislature. The failure of the Democrat and Republican parties to provide and support candidates who will be brave enough to force out the old, long-timers is partly to blame for the unfavorable economic and social conditions of the country.

By FRNash/PHX, AZ (Frnash) on Saturday, October 6, 2012 - 01:09 pm:

On further consideration, I must admit that I had great difficulty judging the debate in isolation.

Considered by itself, Romney's performance in the debate seemed to be "on his game", as I said before, yet given his previous performance in this campaign, it seemed to be yet another waffle. The term "slickmeister" (from the Clinton era) comes to mind; either that or Romney is simply the "CEO of the Waffle House".

Perhaps I don't have the mental discipline to make my assessment solely on the debate. I am simply unable to dismess Romney's track record.

What am I to believe? Waffle, waffle, flip, flop: Will the real Romney please stand up?

As for Obama's performance in the debate, he did at times seem to be desperately seeking a teleprompter, driven by the "Wizard behind the curtain" furiously entering his responses into it. Of course that was pretty consistent with what I have come to expect from Obama.

In short, no big surprises on either side of the debate. (In this context that is a serious distortion of the term, by the way.)

By Deb S. (Usedtobeayooper) on Saturday, October 6, 2012 - 01:13 pm:

Loved your "Wizard behind the curtain" comment, Frank!

By FRNash/PHX, AZ (Frnash) on Saturday, October 6, 2012 - 02:14 pm:

Eugene Zuverink (Zube):
"… Today he [Obama] came on with that southern accent again where does he get that from, I thought he was born in Hawaii."

Well, he was born in Honolulu1; while not exactly southern Hawaii, that's at least on the southern coast of Oahu! Does that work for ya? <grin>

1 Although the "birthers" still dispute that, eh?
FRNash/PHX, AZ (Frnash) on Saturday, October 6, 2012 - 02:35 pm:

This Week's Top Web Comedy Video: Mitt Romney's Self-Destruct Button. (Scroll down that page and click on the phrase "Click to view".)

By Waveaction (Lakelover) on Saturday, October 6, 2012 - 04:52 pm:

I think I will vote for Romney since I am in the middle class, who he thinks makes $250,000 a year. NOT!

It still blows my mind that Barack's birth place is still questioned.

I still want to hear what Romney has in his game plan....to date...nothing. He must be busy watching Sesame Street.

By FRNash/PHX, AZ (Frnash) on Saturday, October 6, 2012 - 08:37 pm:

Waveaction (Lakelover):
That sure is one spectacular Superior sunset in your profile!
Was that looking south from the shore near Freda?

By Eugene Zuverink (Zube) on Sunday, October 7, 2012 - 11:47 am:

Well I think Obama has proven himself over the last four years. In 2008 you must admit you didn't know this guy or even heard of him then.
Just like they say, he never even ran a pizza store and I think he has proven that.He has been to Las Vegas 16 times since he has been President.
And my dear friends you are paying for it.They just said on NBC he is on Airforce 1 more than any past President, coming from NBC that is something. You say Romney has nothing in his game plan,I can say for sure Obamas game plan certainly
has not worked. It has been disastrous, SO why is there any thought about him. Lets make a change.

By Deb S. (Usedtobeayooper) on Sunday, October 7, 2012 - 12:26 pm:

Good question, Gene. However, we've had enough "change". We need something different!

By Waveaction (Lakelover) on Sunday, October 7, 2012 - 04:44 pm:

Give me a break. Eugene Zuverink (Zube), you try fixing the problems of the USA, in fact, you fix the problems of the world.

Let's make a change all right, let's study the facts.

By Heikki (Heikki) on Sunday, October 7, 2012 - 07:11 pm:

We need leadership that understands how economies work. We also need leadership that has a proven track record of working with those across the aisle. Obama has neither. Romney has both.

By David Soumis (Davesou) on Sunday, October 7, 2012 - 07:38 pm:

Romney is a piranha. Big money, big corporatist. I'm not saying Obama is any better. He is a warmonger as well, as Romney will be if he wins the election.

Take a look at why we have no jobs. It has nothing to do with Obama...and it will have nothing to do with Romney. The jobs are gone. They are overseas. Check this out:

All these trade agreements that are being signed, the corporate control of our government. Citizns United 2010 decision by the Supreme Court that made corporations people.

The executives of these companies are making the highest differential in worker to employer ratio ever. The highest by far in the world. Most companies are also making high profits, but not creating jobs. they are hoarding the cash.

Bottom line, Romney or Obama are not who we need to vote for.

By Deb S. (Usedtobeayooper) on Sunday, October 7, 2012 - 08:00 pm:

BUT, they are the 2 who are running, and we will waste a vote if we vote for anybody else. That's a sad statement, but it's true. Somehow (and I don't know how) we, the people, have to do something to change that.

By David Soumis (Davesou) on Sunday, October 7, 2012 - 08:14 pm:

whats interesting, I am talking to people all ove rthe country..and I hear repeatedly about wasting votes ...
Don;t you think if everyone that is worried about wasting votes voted for somene other than the 2 corporate puppets that they would win?

The only negative right now, is the fact no one from 3rd parties are running for senate and house against the republican and deomcratic candidates, so even if a 3rd party presedential candidate won, their power would be minimal, although he or she could veto or not sign off on a lot of stuff, thus blocking it.... for awhile.

but until people start to quit being afraid to vote their heart and conscience, nothing will change. Why would you think anything will change now? Its been the same •••• since for quite awhile, and if you look at the true history of the USA, wehave been in imperialistic mode since its inception.

By Eugene Zuverink (Zube) on Sunday, October 7, 2012 - 09:19 pm:

Come on David get real, it's not going to happen in your life time. If not Romney or Obama than should we write your name in David. May be there are some of us who want Romney in. They didn't have any problems with him in Mass. He must have some business brains in his head. They chose him to get the Olympics out of bankruptcy that one year and that he did. Now what experience did Obama have on foreign affairs when he was voted in

By David Soumis (Davesou) on Sunday, October 7, 2012 - 09:43 pm:

Eugine..you're such a realist. I agree with you on that statement.. it will not happen in my lifetime. It more than likely will never happen unless the sheeple start to think. At least you do.

Romney is a very good businessman... Absolutely no question about it. He's made a lot of money. Not too employee friendly, however.

I think Obama has done a pretty bad job as president. He has not done anything that most peace activists would want to see. I'm not too sure he has any control at all with the jobless situation ...other then somehow forcing companies to keep their factories in the US. But if you look at it from a business point of view, you can hardly blame a business for trying to maximize profits by shipping the jobs overseas to cheap labor. The US worker cannot compete at that level. Our standard of living is too high. When we are brought down to the level of 3rd world, you will see business move back and the jobs will come. No union labor, low pay and probably no benefits.

By Eugene Zuverink (Zube) on Sunday, October 7, 2012 - 09:45 pm:

David you are calling Romney a peranha,big money and big corporatist. What kind of person would you want in that office.

By David Soumis (Davesou) on Sunday, October 7, 2012 - 10:00 pm:


check out her Green New Deal


By Heikki (Heikki) on Monday, October 8, 2012 - 08:41 am:

There are TWO viable choices. That's it!

By Eugene Zuverink (Zube) on Monday, October 8, 2012 - 10:51 am:

)OK David I will vote for the green party and waste my priviledge to vote.

By Waveaction (Lakelover) on Monday, October 8, 2012 - 04:50 pm:

“The problem is that the people with the most ridiculous ideas are always the people who are most certain of them."

(The Decider, July 21, 2007)”
¯ Bill Maher -

By David Soumis (Davesou) on Monday, October 8, 2012 - 06:49 pm:

Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.
Albert Einstein

keep doing what you've been doing ... voting for the 2 parties. nothing will change... it hasn't so far.

anyway, voting for whom you believe in is surely not wasting a vote. Considering I do not support either of the 2 corporatist parties, my vote would be wasted if I voted for one of them.

By Heikki (Heikki) on Monday, October 8, 2012 - 07:00 pm:

Name one more viable candidate with one month left before the election. There is a place for certainty when all possibilities are staring one in the face. I could be a fan of Billy if he wasn't wrong so often. :-)

By Heikki (Heikki) on Monday, October 8, 2012 - 07:25 pm:

The point I was trying to make is there is no way in hades a 3rd party candidate could win with the time left. None of their standings are high enough. So, it's back to the lesser of two 'evils'. If Romney wins, it's not going to be an easy row to hoe, either, but at least his ideas stand a better chance of pointing our nation in the right direction.

Down the road, perhaps some thought should be given to a POTUS with no party affiliation. Strictly a CEO/CIC position based on qualifications. At least most of the incompetents would be screened out. The cult of personality hasn't been working too well lately.

By FJL (Langoman) on Tuesday, October 9, 2012 - 10:24 am:

The choice is clear. My vote is for Romney....

By Eugene Zuverink (Zube) on Tuesday, October 9, 2012 - 07:46 pm:

Obama said if I can't getter done in the first three years I will be a one termer, so let us make him a one termer. Is there one person that gets on this political site that can say he has made our country better. I wish I could and I wish he would have because time is running out with this type of President. Yesterday I herd that in twenty years there will be enough Muslums in our country to decide the Presidency.If that is possible,then that is something to get concerned about. Right now they have a city of there own"Dearborn" Mi. 48000. Our President says we no longer are a christian nation, but a nation of Jews Christian and Muslun. Just think about it we are loosing control of our own country and believe me Obama is not helping us in any way.Can anyone even imagine how women would be treated in this country. This is a no brainer we must vote for Romney he has a different look on life itself.

By Deb S. (Usedtobeayooper) on Tuesday, October 9, 2012 - 10:06 pm:

A huge fear for sure, Gene. I think most of us have realized all of this for a long time now, even before he got elected. I hope and pray that he gets defeated! If not, I'm afraid that life as we know it will be gone.

By Waveaction (Lakelover) on Wednesday, October 10, 2012 - 07:04 am:

Oy vey!

By Diana P. (Diana) on Wednesday, October 10, 2012 - 08:15 am:

I am convinced that Mitt Romney is the candidate who can get America back on track; and very importantly to me, he is prolife, from conception to natural end.

Along the lines of America changing, I wonder how many have seen that documentary movie "Obama's America: 2016" in a theater.

By FRNash/PHX, AZ (Frnash) on Wednesday, October 10, 2012 - 02:52 pm:

Here's a 'nuther characterization of Romney: (click →) Rationalwiki.org: Mitt Romney. Many of the points therein quite accurately reflect some of my concerns with Romney. (Do not conclude that therefor I support Obama!)

By Waveaction (Lakelover) on Wednesday, October 10, 2012 - 04:05 pm:

Money, money, money.


By Deb S. (Usedtobeayooper) on Wednesday, October 10, 2012 - 04:11 pm:

I don't feel quite as concerned about the mysteries in Romney's tax returns as I do the mysteries in our president's life.

By Waveaction (Lakelover) on Wednesday, October 10, 2012 - 04:24 pm:

Oy vey!

By Waveaction (Lakelover) on Wednesday, October 10, 2012 - 04:42 pm:


By Waveaction (Lakelover) on Wednesday, October 10, 2012 - 05:37 pm:

I am voting for Barack and proud of it. Voted for him the first time.

By george piker (Asturgeon) on Wednesday, October 10, 2012 - 05:50 pm:

i'm happy to see that citizens are taking
interest in the upcoming election. a week ago,
i drove through residential areas of the city
i reside in and was amazed by the lack
of presidential lawn signs displayed. i made
maybe a 15 mile trip and saw one 'obama' sign
and one sign that displayed 'take back our
country'. in contrast, 4 years ago, nearly
every lawn had a sign for president. people
were gathered on street corners carrying
signs and waving to passing traffic.

what i see out of the upcoming election is:
under obama, we will continue to suffer as
inflation will continue and probably unemployment
will continue at current levels as obama is
not really trying to reduce unemployment. fed policies
will continue to reduce the value of the dollar
as obama tries to bring the american populace
into the fold of the world. we haven't seen
anything yet. the obamacare tax will most likely
affect many in their jobs.

if romney is elected: who knows, i would guess
he would take a more austere approach to
governing. obama has increased the national
debt to 16 trillion dollars. i believe romney
wants to deal with this 'mount everest' of
debt. we will also be burdened under this
administration. there are options to trying
to get the economy going that obama is
unwilling to try.

we've had 4 years of obama rule and it's
clear what his intentions are.
neither choice is attractive.

By Janie T. (Bobbysgirl) on Wednesday, October 10, 2012 - 06:14 pm:

That's your right Joanie.

By Eugene Zuverink (Zube) on Wednesday, October 10, 2012 - 07:59 pm:

Very well said George, I couldn't agree more.

By Heikki (Heikki) on Thursday, October 11, 2012 - 09:36 am:

Top Ten Reasons To Dislike Mitt Romney:
(From an e-mail msg.)

1. Drop-dead handsome with gracious, statesmanlike aura. Looks like every central casting's #1 choice for Commander-in-Chief.

2. Been married to ONE woman his entire life, and has been faithful to her, including through her bouts with breast cancer and MS.

3. No scandals or skeletons in his closet. (How boring is that?)

4. Can't speak in a fake, southern dialect, or "black preacher voice" when necessary.

5. Highly intelligent. Graduated cum laude from both Harvard Law School and Harvard Business School...and by the way, his academic records are NOT sealed.

6. Doesn't smoke or drink alcohol, and has never done drugs, not even in the counter-culture age when he went to college. Too square for today's America?

7. Represents an America of "yesterday", where people believed in God, went to Church, didn't screw around, worked hard, and became a SUCCESS!

8. Has a family of five great sons....and none of them have police records or are in drug rehab. But of course, they were raised by a stay-at-home mom, and that "choice" deserves America's scorn.

9. Oh yes.....he's a MORMON. We need to be very afraid of that very strange religion that teaches its members to be clean-living, patriotic, fiscally conservative, charitable, self-reliant, and honest.

10. Pundits say because of his wealth, he can't relate to ordinary Americans. I guess that's because he made money HIMSELF the "old fashioned" way...as opposed to marrying it or inheriting it from Dad. Apparently, he didn't understand that actually working at a job and earning your own money made you unrelatable to Americans.

(Yeah, a bit square for this old 'reprobate', but not enough to hold against him. A vast improvement over what we've become accustomed. I'm gonna give him a try. How about you?)

By Janie T. (Bobbysgirl) on Thursday, October 11, 2012 - 09:42 am:

I'm with Mitt!

By Eugene Zuverink (Zube) on Thursday, October 11, 2012 - 09:47 am:

Heikki that isn't the kind of man we would want for President. Why would anyone vote for someone like that, Joanie isn't going to,I don't think David is going to. Looking at all of Romneys bad points you pointed out, I still think I will vote for him. I think I can overlook some of these bad points.

By Heikki (Heikki) on Thursday, October 11, 2012 - 11:47 am:

Well Zube, that's the chance we take. Life is a craps shoot. If you ever hear of him eyeing-up another woman, taking a couple whiffs of second hand doobie smoke or smelling some wine corks, let me know, okay? He'll be off my list so fast his head will swim!

By Eugene Zuverink (Zube) on Thursday, October 11, 2012 - 01:12 pm:

Heikki I would be very schocked if I heard any thing bad about him. I don't think he has Clintons morals or Joe Bidens dirty mouth. I think he is a very UPstanding man. It is to bad according to some people that he has made a lot of money in his lifetime. Bill and Hillary didn't have much when he became President,but now they are millionares,Obama is a millionare but it's bad if Romney is.

By Heikki (Heikki) on Thursday, October 11, 2012 - 01:41 pm:

Aye, Zube, the money issue. He's also given millions away and helped create or save many businesses, but if a few of those businesses didn't make it, he becomes the ogre. Go figure! Our son-in-law, who has been in the radio business for about 25 yrs now, walked into work one Monday morning in 2009 and was told his job didn't exist anymore. Hard times had set in like so many other places. Within two weeks he was driving to work a bit further from home at a larger radio station, and 6 months later, landed a management position with Clear Channel. Bain Capital owns circa 75% of Clear Channel. Son-in-law says Clear Channel is the best managed company he's ever worked for. It would certainly help to have a person with a high regard for sound management guiding our ship of state. There would be budgets to follow, deadlines to meet, and accountability. My God, on second thought, how could we put up with that!?? Maybe we should forget about that Mitt fella, eh?

By Diana P. (Diana) on Thursday, October 11, 2012 - 02:05 pm:

FRNash: Never heard of RationalWiki before this. It would be good to know who writes that stuff, and what their credentials are. There is a RationalWiki page for Barack Obama also.

I'm pulling for Mitt Romney; no concerns about him here!

By Deb S. (Usedtobeayooper) on Thursday, October 11, 2012 - 02:57 pm:

I'm for Mitt too! Top 10 reasons, eh? I think I've seen that somewhere. Even after reading that, I will STILL vote for Mitt!! I remember saying something to the effect that "Anybody will be better than George W!" WOW!! Was I wrong!! Now I repeat, "Anybody will be better than Obama"! And THAT'S the truth! Believe it or not, I voted Democrat most of my life. Was taught that the Republicans were the evil empire or something. Live and learn, I guess! Go Mitt!

By FRNash/PHX, AZ (Frnash) on Thursday, October 11, 2012 - 03:16 pm:

Diana P. (Diana):
"FRNash: Never heard of RationalWiki before this. Who writes that stuff? What are their credentials? Have you seen the corresponding RationalWiki page for Barack Obama?"

I don't know either. It was forwarded to me via email. No, I'm not promoting it, nor am I buying it wholesale. I mention it here only because it reflects many of the concerns I have about candidate Romney, from his performance to date on the campaign trail.

I'm afraid I still don't know which of his many diametrically opposite positions truly represents him. It is neither encouraging, nor inspiring to see a campaign that has been characterized by the following.


1. Waffle, waffle, flip, flop.
2. Go to step 1.

Go back and review my posts from before the November 2008 election and I think you will see that I was not a big fan of Barack Obama. Nor am I now.

By FRNash/PHX, AZ (Frnash):
1. Click → … on Tuesday, October 14, 2008 - 04:14 pm: and perhaps scroll down through several following posts, from there through Wednesday, October 22, 2008 - 12:23 am.

2. Click → … on Wednesday, October 22, 2008 - 12:24 am:

3. Click → … on Wednesday, November 5, 2008 - 01:18 pm:

Clearly, the worst of my predictions has not come to pass during Obama's current term, but do we want to give him another shot?

As to Romney, for me it still comes down to credibility problem. I really do not feel like I know what we're getting with Romney.

Will the real Romney please stand up?

At least he seems to be the lesser of a number of evils, given the bunch of utterly empty-headed whack jobs among this year's failed Republican candidates! (More on that to follow.)
Waveaction (Lakelover) on Thursday, October 11, 2012 - 04:10 pm:

Republished with permission from PleaseCutTheCrap.typepad.com

If you’re one of those folks who thinks President Obama is a “disappointment,” you haven’t been paying attention the last few years. And those of you who try to draw comparisons with the Bush Administration should put away the hallucinogens and have your memory checked. If you were in a coma for the eight Bush Years, I apologize and forgive you. But please join the real world. So far, this president has done most of what he said he would do if elected; imagine what he could have done by now if progressives had supported him and not given him a Congress that doesn’t look at him as if he’s the demon seed.

By Heikki (Heikki) on Thursday, October 11, 2012 - 04:37 pm:

Obama did have support for the first two years by every moonbat progressive in Congress. Does the name Nancy Pelosi ring a bell? Does Harry Reid ring a bell? Does "we have to pass the bill before we know what's in it" being remembered? Obama had an override-proof Congress for two years, yet did not keep his promise for immigration reform. He promised to cut the debt in half, but added $6T instead. His administration has yet to get a budget approved by the Senate. I think his budgets received zero votes....that means all Dem's voted against it, too. Instead of concentrating getting the economy on even keel again, he tries to push through the biggest power grab in history (Obamacare) when industry had been rocked by the housing bubble collapse. He has no sense of priority....unless it's his aim to ruin the nation financially.....and if that's the case, he is the demon seed. I still give him the benefit of the doubt by thinking him merely not up to the job. The reason the recovery is slow, is because he and his minions have created a large degree of uncertainty in the business world. Businesses have to know what their overhead costs are going to be. That is the real world.

By Waveaction (Lakelover) on Thursday, October 11, 2012 - 04:47 pm:

I'm done. It's a shame we have so many racists here. :(

By FJL (Langoman) on Thursday, October 11, 2012 - 05:08 pm:

No apology wanted. The person in a coma is the one who said "this president has done most of what he said he would do if elected." His campaign promise of "hope and change and cutting the debt in half," fell woefuly short. Having control of both houses for the first two years, he did nothing but ram Obamacare through, and throw a ton of money at problems hoping that would solve them. No budget in almost four years.

Keep wearing the rose colored glasses and drinking the koolaid. All is right with the world........

By FJL (Langoman) on Thursday, October 11, 2012 - 05:23 pm:

The shame is using the race word to cover up for a totally incompetent president.........

By george piker (Asturgeon) on Thursday, October 11, 2012 - 05:33 pm:

waveaction, i couldn't get pinterest.com to work
for me. so could you list 10 items that the prez
promised and accomplished? (pinterest said 200
items). i am interested in alternative

fjl, the reason as we all figured by now for
no budget from congress is that the budget
automatically increases annually by maybe 10% (or some other ridiculous number) if no
new budget is invoked. a disgusting display
of power by sen reid.

By Janie T. (Bobbysgirl) on Thursday, October 11, 2012 - 05:36 pm:

Joanie, Racists? Serious? I would like to think of it as our choice, our freedom of choice to vote!

By george piker (Asturgeon) on Thursday, October 11, 2012 - 06:10 pm:

waveaction, i can't find any rascist
discussion on this thread -- however
i think that nationally, it is becoming
more popular by liberals to accuse
dissenters of their mantra as rascists.
so disappointing and destructive are
these tactics.

By FRNash/PHX, AZ (Frnash) on Thursday, October 11, 2012 - 06:23 pm:

george piker (Asturgeon):
"waveaction, i couldn't get pinterest.com to work for me. …"

Pinterest.com? What's a pinterest.com? I see no previous mention of a "Pinterest.com" here? What'd I miss?

By Eugene Zuverink (Zube) on Thursday, October 11, 2012 - 08:38 pm:

Joanie "Waveaction" Your ouote " So far,this President has done most of what he said he would do if elected" Just name TWO things he said he would do and did it, just TWO. He spent the first two years on almost nothing but health care. He said if I can't geter done in three years I'm a one termer. He has been to Las Vegas sixteen times how could he get anything done. Tell us Joanie.

By Eugene Zuverink (Zube) on Thursday, October 11, 2012 - 08:52 pm:

If you want to watch a couple of hate mongers watch the Ed Show and Rachel Maddow program on MSNBC. it is hate hate hate. Ed calls Romney a LIAR over and over. Obama is falling behind just a little, Romney made Obama look a little silly in the debate,oh thats right he was a mile up,he was confuesed. They don't have to much to say so they will call hima liar. We shall see.

By Deb S. (Usedtobeayooper) on Thursday, October 11, 2012 - 10:43 pm:

Things are getting a little exciting over here!!

My mom's a staunch Democrat too (as was I for quite some time) and whenever I say something she doesn't want to hear, she tells me that I don't like Obama because he's black. Omgosh! I couldn't care less if he's black. I care that he hasn't done anything to help this country, and has pretty much ignored all of us. (And by the way, I probably would have voted for Colin Powell. What color is he?)

Just watched the VP debate. WOW! In my opinion, Biden made a fool out of himself. But that's me!

By Diana P. (Diana) on Friday, October 12, 2012 - 01:02 am:

Heikki: Great synopsis of the highlights of Obama's term leading America.

FRNash: Read the posts you cited; thorough job gathering that information on Obama. Why would anyone want to give Obama another chance to force America further down the path he seems to be taking?

FRNash: Regarding Romney, I am comfortable with what is known about his character, and I believe Mitt Romney is the President we need to bring America back.

By Heikki (Heikki) on Friday, October 12, 2012 - 11:05 am:

Thank you, Diana. There are many more broken promises as anyone who pays attention to the news would know, but I didn't want to get too verbose. However, to keep things as factual as practicable, one correction must be made. Obama didn't promise to cut the national DEBT in half. He promised to cut the DEFICIT in half. Of course, that never happened either.

Hitting cyberspace this morning with respect to the dog and pony show last night (debate), is: PROVERBS 29:9 How appropo is that!? LOL

By Eugene Zuverink (Zube) on Friday, October 12, 2012 - 11:13 am:

All I saw last nite with Biden was a lot of teeth and as far as we are concerned he made a complete
### of himself. The news said he interupted Ryan 82 times and the moderator said nothing. He did the same type of laughing with Palin, just a stupid jerk for his age.The sooner Obama and Biden are taken out of business the better.

By Waveaction (Lakelover) on Friday, October 12, 2012 - 04:20 pm:

Eugene, you must have been too busy watching teeth.

As for what Obama has done, least you forget;

Washington Monthly

By Eugene Zuverink (Zube) on Friday, October 12, 2012 - 06:57 pm:

Joanie "Waveaction" on Thursday I asked you to tell us just two things Obama did that he said he would do in 2008 if he were elected. You said he did MOST of what he said he would do. Just two things Joanie that should't be to hard.How could any Vice President act like he did, but he did. He just gave an example of what we have running our country. Two !*!es

By Eugene Zuverink (Zube) on Friday, October 12, 2012 - 07:09 pm:

Oh my goodness Joanie there is 50 things he did.
All of those things, thats why our country is in such good shape. Yep thats why there is 46 million
on food stamps. Yep thats why the true unemployment is around 11-12%. Yep thats why so many people have lost there homes. And on andon we go. Joanie I can just tell and I can just fell it you want to vote for Mitt Romney and I think
secretly you will.

By Deb S. (Usedtobeayooper) on Friday, October 12, 2012 - 07:18 pm:

Went to the site that Joanie posted above. Those are laughable, to be honest. He has done nothing worthwhile to help this country. He's leading our country down a path of destruction. God help us!

I'm with Gene!

By george piker (Asturgeon) on Friday, October 12, 2012 - 07:27 pm:

waveaction, thanks for the link. this prez
deserves accolades. one thing i noticed
missing from the list is 'nobel peace prize'.
very curious.

do you think he lessoned biden in last night's debate?

By FRNash/PHX, AZ (Frnash) on Friday, October 12, 2012 - 08:05 pm:

george piker (Asturgeon):
"… do you think he lessoned biden in last night's debate?"

I don't understand.
1. Who 'he', the 'prez'?
2. Lessoned? As in "gave him lessons"?

By FRNash/PHX, AZ (Frnash) on Friday, October 12, 2012 - 08:05 pm:

I'm just now watching the Biden/Ryan debate of October 11, 2012, which I previously recorded.

The debate rules, in part:


"We will have nine different segments. At the beginning of each segment, I will ask both candidates a question, and they will each have two minutes to answer."

My, but I find Biden to be annoying.

Much like the guests/panelists on the Sunday morning talking heads shows, he persistently interrupts Ryan during Ryan's two minutes.

He interrupts the moderator.

Heck, he interrupts himself!

Even more frustratingly, he seems virtually unable to speak in complete sentences, often letting a sentence trail off into oblivion, interrupting himself in mid sentence — even in mid-word — with a different thought. What a debater! Is this a tactic?

It just drives me nuts! As Charlie Brown would say: "Aaugh!"

I'm going to have to watch this debate again.
Deb S. (Usedtobeayooper) on Friday, October 12, 2012 - 08:11 pm:

FRNash!! Why on earth would you put yourself through that again? Everything you said was exactly correct. He even invented a word last night, though I don't remember what it was. Supposedly, according to all the news channels I have watched, Biden won the debate. Well, since Ryan was never allowed to finish a thought, I suppose he would. Lord knows he did most of the talking. And I wanted to wipe that smirk right off of his face. He reminded me of Gore, when he'd get up and get in George's face before he had a chance to finish what he was saying. (I did NOT vote for Bush, by the way, but was annoyed terribly by Gore's tactics during the debates.) Anyway, they should hold another debate so that Ryan could actually finish a sentence.

By Marianne Y (Marianne) on Friday, October 12, 2012 - 08:26 pm:

Just think - Biden is just a heartbeat away from being President, Heaven help us! Let's just hope it is only until the election & January 20, 2013, and not another 4 more years!

By Deb S. (Usedtobeayooper) on Friday, October 12, 2012 - 08:43 pm:

Heaven help us!!

By Diana P. (Diana) on Saturday, October 13, 2012 - 07:53 am:

Did anyone read the comments at the bottom of the magazine article Waveaction noted above?

I missed the Ryan/Biden debate. I could find it on the internet, but from the clip I watched on the nightly news, I don't think I need to bother. It looked like Biden acted annoyingly childish.

FRNash: "Is this a tactic?" Good question! Was it all a performance in an attempt to throw Ryan off his game? Your Charlie Brown quote is perfect!

By FJL (Langoman) on Saturday, October 13, 2012 - 09:13 am:

Everytime Biden smiled, you seen your tax dollars at work......

By Deb S. (Usedtobeayooper) on Saturday, October 13, 2012 - 09:30 am:

Exactly, Diana. He WAS being annoyingly childish. I just wanted Ryan to wipe that smile off his face. Somebody I know said that he must be using some pretty potent toothpaste to hide the smell of the bs he's always talking about.

By Eugene Zuverink (Zube) on Saturday, October 13, 2012 - 10:42 am:

Just like Marianne said, a heart beat away from being your president. When the "Truth Squad" cheched him out they said there were many lies,but how would we know when we are watching.
He laughed at everything Ryan said.Ryan should have stopped and asked him what drugs he was on because your acting like an idiot, and I don't think there would have been anything wrong with that because Biden was controlling that thing with his actions. The moderator did a losey job by letting him get away with 82 interuptions, that just wasn't fair.Please not four more years of those two.

By Eugene Zuverink (Zube) on Saturday, October 13, 2012 - 10:58 am:

This is one I am really confused on. They were asked on the debate there position on abortion.
Now the Roman Catholic church from everything I read is very much against abortion. Biden and Ryan are Roman Catholic,now how could Biden go against his church on national TV and say it should be legal. To me he did it for votes and forgot what his church believes. Ryan said he is against abortion.

By Diana P. (Diana) on Saturday, October 13, 2012 - 11:51 am:

You are right, Zube, the Catholic Church is very much against abortion, and that includes anything that will cause an abortion. I guess that I will watch that debate after all, because apparently Biden inaccurately stated the effect of the HHS Mandate with respect to Catholic (and all religious) institutions being forced go along with abortion, in all its forms. Maybe an attempt to sway the undecided Catholics votes? The Catholic Bishops have responded to Biden's inaccurate statement.


By Deb S. (Usedtobeayooper) on Saturday, October 13, 2012 - 12:15 pm:

Just read that, Diana. Happy they spoke up!

By Eugene Zuverink (Zube) on Saturday, October 13, 2012 - 03:39 pm:

Very good. There is no reason Biden should be speaking for the Catholic Church.If that is his belief I don't think he can take communion in the church can he, I am not Catholic so I don't know.
But it sounds like being Catholic he is trying to sway Catholic people, in other words that it is alright. He is one strange man.

By Deb S. (Usedtobeayooper) on Saturday, October 13, 2012 - 03:44 pm:

That's the problem with both political parties. They run against each other in the primaries, and don't have the same beliefs as their opponents do. Then come election time, they all believe the same thing. How can they be so hypocritical? How can the Clinton's go blindly along with Obama? Hillary ran AGAINST him!!! Now they're good buds?? And it's the same with the Reps!! It's just ridiculous! Stand up for what YOU believe in, and if it doesn't agree with the man on top, then vote against it. It's as easy as that.

By Waveaction (Lakelover) on Saturday, October 13, 2012 - 04:14 pm:

I was born and raised Catholic and as far as abortion goes, I think it is totally wrong but....when you see what happens to unwanted babies it breaks my heart.

As for the debates, they have really changed over the years. The debates shouldn't have a thing to do with who is the best candidate. It should be on the candidates qualifications. Yippee, Romney and his family have a crime-free record. Well so did Barack.

By the way; what's the difference between a Mormon and a Catholic? I'd really like to know.

Also, to all of you skepticals, Barack is NOT the "anti-Christ", come on now.

By Marianne Y (Marianne) on Saturday, October 13, 2012 - 05:20 pm:

On Catholic abortion position, Nancy Pelosi is in the exact same position as Biden.

On the Clintons and Obama: their relationship may be very close to a huge change! In case you haven't noticed, Biden (and the White House) have essentially thrown both the whole State Dept & the Intelligence units under the bus, in the Libya fiasco, when they said that they got their line about the video from the Intelligence, part of which is affiliated with the State Dept. Do you think that the Clintons are going to let Hillary's reputation that has otherwise been decent, for all of her work in the State Dept, totally sullied, for apparently refusing to give the Consulate the additional security people that they requested & certainly needed, and lying about it not being terrorism, for over 2 weeks? Where is she? She hasn't been heard from for several days. She should testify before the Congressional committees that are investigating this stuff. She is not going to give up her chance to run for President in 2016, just to try to save Obama's re-election chances.

By Deb S. (Usedtobeayooper) on Saturday, October 13, 2012 - 05:42 pm:

You could be right, Marianne. I hadn't thought about that. I'm just so frustrated with the fact that they're basically kissing his hind end through all of this. And Hillary has said she doesn't want to run. Working with him has totally aged her. She looks very tired and she works very hard. I think she's basically a good person. I wish she would never have agreed to be any part of his administration!

By Eugene Zuverink (Zube) on Saturday, October 13, 2012 - 05:49 pm:

I agree with you Deb, Hillary was crazy mad at Obama in 2008 while she was running, and now she protects him and I agree politics are just crazy.
Your not fit to be President Oh you want me to be your Secretary Of State, OK I will. It doesn't makes sence. She was on TV today, it was film of a couple days ago I guess,but she said we still don't have all the info on the attack,that is a outright lie. They know exatly what happened. I hope they put them "HER" under oath, and soon.

By george piker (Asturgeon) on Saturday, October 13, 2012 - 05:54 pm:

sorry if i touched a nerve. google 'lessoned'
and my brief blog will be clear.

By Marianne Y (Marianne) on Saturday, October 13, 2012 - 06:01 pm:

Bill Clinton has been doing everything in his power to hold the door open for Hillary to run for President in 2016, including holding his nose & giving the speech at the Democratic National Convention as well as campaigning for Obama since then. It's not because he likes Obama. And, there is doubt as to whether Bill would even vote for Obama when it comes time to vote in the November election, to be honest. And now, with Obama and Biden & company appearing to be throwing Hillary & the State Dept & the Intelligence people ALL under the bus in this conspiracy...

By Marianne Y (Marianne) on Saturday, October 13, 2012 - 06:12 pm:

One other thing that I saw on cable news in the last couple of nights: one of the Democratic Strategists mentioned that maybe Biden was on some kind of uppers for the VP Debate, possibly too much Red Bull, while Obama was on some kind of downers for the first Presidential Debate? It was a shock to hear that comment from one of their own!

By Janie T. (Bobbysgirl) on Saturday, October 13, 2012 - 06:17 pm:

Biden....whiskey makes me frisky!

By george piker (Asturgeon) on Saturday, October 13, 2012 - 06:48 pm:

marianne, i have to admit that i was also
wondering about biden's condition during the
debate. was he drunk? was he under some
kind of substance influence? he
certainly exhibited a bizarre behavior.

By Heikki (Heikki) on Saturday, October 13, 2012 - 10:04 pm:

Icon of a horse's patoot.....

My apology to all the horses in the world.

By Deb S. (Usedtobeayooper) on Sunday, October 14, 2012 - 09:05 am:

Omgosh Heikki, your above statement made me laugh out loud. Whenever I say somebody is a horse's A$$, I say "no offense to the horse".

By Eugene Zuverink (Zube) on Wednesday, October 17, 2012 - 01:03 pm:

On the internet this morning there is an artical
"The top ten lies of the debate" Nine are by Obama and one by the moderator Candy Crowley.And the liberal Huffington Post says yes they are lies. WOW. When they do the fact checking they can find this stuff out. It is to bad the moderator can't stop them in there tracks and say that is not true. The sad part is the most people don't know,so they believe what they hear. It's to bad.

By Heikki (Heikki) on Wednesday, October 17, 2012 - 02:03 pm:

Huffington Post, eh? Well, you know for sure they were lies if it came from the Post. lol

Candy Crowley later recanted on CNN. It was a matter of semantics on her part but BHO's ears perked up real quick when he heard her words. If scored by number of lies, BHO surely won. Libya will be on the front burner next Monday. Perhaps Rom will get a chance to answer some charges made last night for which he was denied time. He had 3 minutes less than BHO. A lot can be said in 3 minutes.

By JH (Thumbgardener) on Wednesday, October 17, 2012 - 08:21 pm:

Who won the 2nd presidential debate?

Jimmy Kimmel asked...

By FRNash/PHX, AZ (Frnash) on Wednesday, October 17, 2012 - 10:21 pm:

Heikki (Heikki)
"Huffington Post, eh? Well, you know for sure they were lies if it came from the Post. …"

Er, um, "Bluffington Post"? :-)

By Heikki (Heikki) on Thursday, October 18, 2012 - 11:03 am:

Yes, FRNash, something like that, or maybe it's Puffington Host. lol

By Eugene Zuverink (Zube) on Thursday, October 18, 2012 - 12:21 pm:

Hillary Rodham Clinton is one of the biggest liars in the Obama administration.She can look right into the cameras and say President Obama and Vice President Biden knew nothing about the attack.Do you remember when Romney had him ticked off towards the end of the debate about the attack and Obama said in an angry voice "I'm the President and I am the Commander in Chief. Well,the commander in chief didn't know what happened,another liar.She is a liar now just like she is in the Vince Foster death.The day after his death her chief of staff was seen by a secret service agent carring boxes out of Fosters office
and she got away with that one. If that women is thinking of running in 2016 these things are going to come back to haunt her. That women has a personality like a cougar.

By Deb S. (Usedtobeayooper) on Thursday, October 18, 2012 - 05:57 pm:

I liked Hillary until she became a hypocrite by becoming a part of that administration after fighting him to the end. Why she would have wanted to be a part of that is beyond me. But whatever!

By Eugene Zuverink (Zube) on Thursday, October 18, 2012 - 07:47 pm:

If anyone has ever liked this women I don't know for what reason. She started this lying when she was a young lawyer and maybe sooner.Hillary was a 27 year lawyer working on the judiciary committee investigating impeachment charges against Richard Nixon.Her behavior on this committee was so unethical the General Counsel and the Chief of Staff of the White House Judicial Committee, Jerry Zeifman{a democrat} fired her from the committee staff and refused to give a recommendation. When asked why she was fired Zeifman stated"Because she was a liar,she was an unethical,dishonest lawyer.She conspired to violate the Constitution,the rules of the house,the rules of the committee. And that is the way she started to become a lawyer.
Do you remember the stories she told when she was running against Obama.Do you remember when she landed under "enemy sniper fire" bravery under fire.She said Chelsea was jogging around the world trade center at the time of 9/11 crashes{Chelsea was at a friends house from where she called her mother}.Then she said she faced racism while participating on her High School Soccer team {there was no team}.Then she denied any involvement in the White House travel Office firings.Witnesses observed her saying "fire their a**es" Then she had no knowledge of the Rose Law Firm billing records{which turned up in her private quarters with her notes on them}.
Now why would this women take a bullet for Obama
And this women is our Sec of State, what kind of lies is she telling these other countries. And she wants to be our President.Do we have any honest people running our country.

By Deb S. (Usedtobeayooper) on Thursday, October 18, 2012 - 07:49 pm:

Zube, settle down, lol. She's a politician. It's what they do!!!

By Heikki (Heikki) on Friday, October 19, 2012 - 10:08 am:

Left-leaning Nashville newspaper endorses Mitt Romney (reluctantly, of course). The Tennessean hasn't endorsed a GOP candidate since 1972. Read their rationale here:

Romney Endorsement

When change is in the air, there is hope.

By Diana P. (Diana) on Friday, October 19, 2012 - 11:33 am:

Here's more change, Heikki. The Orlando Sentinel newspaper today announced they are endorsing Mitt Romney for President in 2012, even though they backed Barack Obama in 2008:

Orlando Sentinel endorsement

By Eugene Zuverink (Zube) on Friday, October 19, 2012 - 03:55 pm:

So the Nashville paper is saying,it is surprising that any reasonable voter would feel comfortable pressing the button for either Obama or Romney.After reading the article they are changing to Romney and so is the Orlando Sentinel.
What in the world has Obama done to improve are country or economy. Neither one of the newspapers
came up with a name they would havw liked to have been on the ticket against Obama. In my lifetime I can't think of another President that has devided our country more than he has. And that side was bashing George Bush?
23 million unemployed or underemployed.
47 million on food stamps
5.5 million homes in crisis or forclosure
4500.00 drop in household income
5.5 trillion of new debt
716 million dollars in medicare cuts
1.9 trillion in new taxes in Obamas budget
100% increase in gas prices.
After all of this, why would any one want to keep this man in office.Can you even think where our country is going to be if he gets put back in.

By george piker (Asturgeon) on Friday, October 19, 2012 - 06:02 pm:

zube, another disturbing thing of american
employment is that it is reported by
human events (i know, everyone, it is a conservative outlet) that the american
workforce has reached its lowest level in
30 years. this could really be a bunch of
spin. haven't seen any studies backing this
up or what type of jobs, etc.

anybody see the alfred e smith white tie dinner
event last night? both the prez and romney
were just great.

By george piker (Asturgeon) on Friday, October 19, 2012 - 06:09 pm:

zube, another disturbing thing of american
employment is that it is reported by
human events (i know, everyone, it is a conservative outlet) that the american
workforce has reached its lowest level in
30 years. this could really be a bunch of
spin. haven't seen any studies backing this
up or what type of jobs, etc.

anybody see the alfred e smith white tie dinner
event last night? both the prez and romney
were just great.

By Eugene Zuverink (Zube) on Friday, October 19, 2012 - 07:03 pm:

George I watched that last nite,even though Romney read his jokes I didn't know he could pull it off so funny. I wonder who wrote it for him because IT WAS FUNNY.
I believe were at our lowest in 30 years when we have 23 million out of work.

By Diana P. (Diana) on Friday, October 19, 2012 - 07:24 pm:

Zube, in my opinion, the Sentinel seems to be much more positive about Romney than Obama! I thought they did a good job of explaining why they are not backing Barack Obama this time. They think Romney is the better candidate in part because of his five-point plan and his leadership record. Even though the Sentinel is not socially conservative, as Romney is, they are supporting him for President. I think that's saying a lot for Romney!

By Eugene Zuverink (Zube) on Monday, October 22, 2012 - 01:32 pm:

Well it looks like every thing is quite on the home front.

By george piker (Asturgeon) on Tuesday, October 23, 2012 - 06:04 pm:

a home run for romney last night in my opinion.
hope tigers follow suit tomorrow.
who looked more presidential in debate 3?

By Marianne Y (Marianne) on Wednesday, October 24, 2012 - 09:50 am:

Interesting food for thought. This year, there is a slight chance of an electoral college tie, 269-269. What happens then? Well, since Republicans are likely to retain control of the House, Governor Romney would be President. But, Vice President goes up for grabs, depending on who wins the Senate, which is currently up for grabs. If the Senate ties at 50-50, current VP Biden gets the tie breaking vote. Can you imagine President Romney, being stuck with VP Biden, for Pete's sakes? They say that this year, this has more of a chance of happening than ever before.

By kosk in Toronto (Koskintoronto) on Wednesday, October 24, 2012 - 10:27 am:

Try imagining President Obama and Vice President Ryan.

By Eugene Zuverink (Zube) on Wednesday, October 24, 2012 - 01:12 pm:

Obama said after the third debate"The election will come down to trust". With his record and the things in 2008 he said he would do how in the world would he dare use the word TRUST. Just look at Benghazi alone. The Republicans really have only one TV station to put any pressure on Obama as to what he knows and that is Fox News of course.If this would have been a Republican President the Dems would have CBS NBC CNBC ABC and on and on. I don't think Romney hit a home run in the last debate but he acted more like a gentelmen. What an arrogant person Obama is.

By Eugene Zuverink (Zube) on Wednesday, October 24, 2012 - 01:47 pm:

Obama has a new ad out today another one of his lies. He says he has gained over 5 million jobs since he has taken office. He actually says 5.2 million. How does he dare get on TV and say these things when the Bureau of Labor Statistics say since he took office in January 2009 there is a net gain of 325,000 jobs. Trust!!!

By Heikki (Heikki) on Wednesday, October 24, 2012 - 02:04 pm:

An Obama/Ryan team? That would be amusing. One would have the necessary verbal skills to speak intelligently without a teleprompter, the other would have the ears to listen. ;-)

By Deb S. (Usedtobeayooper) on Wednesday, October 24, 2012 - 07:25 pm:

Well if a tie produced Romney as President, I'd be okay with that. Biden?? That would be funny!!

By Diana P. (Diana) on Thursday, October 25, 2012 - 02:16 pm:

The Detroit News today has endorsed Mitt Romney for President.

By Eugene Zuverink (Zube) on Friday, October 26, 2012 - 10:14 am:

If General Powell thinks the first four years of Obama was alright and is going to back him for another four years then I wonder what kind of General he was. How can he call him self a Republican,why don't he just switch parties. He can't be to bright.

By Deb S. (Usedtobeayooper) on Friday, October 26, 2012 - 08:18 pm:

I don't know, Gene. That surprised me. I don't know why he'd endorse him.

By Marianne Y (Marianne) on Saturday, October 27, 2012 - 12:40 pm:

I agree, that if General Powell thinks the liberal Democrat, Barack Obama is so great, then Powell is no longer a Republican, and he must switch parties! As for brightness, I heard on a documentary on Powell once that he got mostly D's in high school, for what it's worth.

By Marianne Y (Marianne) on Saturday, October 27, 2012 - 12:41 pm:

I wonder what effect, if any, that Frankenstorm, the predicted superstorm that is expected to hit the Northeast and knock out power for weeks, might have on the election of 2012?

By Heikki (Heikki) on Saturday, October 27, 2012 - 01:04 pm:

I think Colin Powell's endorsement is race-based. He holds conservative views but sometimes wanders off the reservation. I used to like him....a lot....but this choice flies in the face of reason. As for brightness, he's no dummy. Ronald Reagan thought highly enough of him to take him from a field command for an advisor. School grades often don't measure intelligence. There are many reasons one may be a poor student but still have high native intelligence.

By Deb S. (Usedtobeayooper) on Saturday, October 27, 2012 - 01:21 pm:

I always liked Colin Powell also, and thought he'd probably make a good President. But this choice of his is soo out there!! And yes, from everything I hear, he is highly intelligent! Maybe school bored him because he was beyond what they were teaching. It does happen!

By Marianne Y (Marianne) on Saturday, October 27, 2012 - 01:27 pm:

I agree that Colin Powell always sounded very intelligent, and I had supported him as a possible President, too, until his two endorsements of Obama!

By Deb S. (Usedtobeayooper) on Saturday, October 27, 2012 - 01:34 pm:

I agree, Marianne!

By Heikki (Heikki) on Saturday, October 27, 2012 - 05:14 pm:

That's why I think it's based on race. So sad.

By Deb S. (Usedtobeayooper) on Saturday, October 27, 2012 - 05:45 pm:

Even sadder when you consider how many supporters Colin Powell had. THAT just goes to show you that it's NOT about race for a good percentage of us.

By Heikki (Heikki) on Sunday, October 28, 2012 - 07:11 am:

Romney wins Des Moines Register endorsement:

By Heikki (Heikki) on Sunday, October 28, 2012 - 07:57 am:

Romney wins Green Bay Press-Gazette endorsement:

Press-Gazette endorsement

By Diana P. (Diana) on Sunday, October 28, 2012 - 09:15 am:

Forbes Magazine, October 25, 2012 ... heartbreaking and shocking information about the Benghazi tragedy ...

Benghazi Tragedy - Forbes Magazine

By george piker (Asturgeon) on Sunday, October 28, 2012 - 07:56 pm:

diana, yes. a reasonable report. minor news
outlets have been scratching out details to this
event for months. the shadow party continues
to discredit any wrongdoing in the benghazi
attack. this is disgraceful to the american

the shadow party knows that if this story
explodes as it should, obama would be toast.
it would expose the lack of leadership of
country in our current administration.

By Heikki (Heikki) on Monday, October 29, 2012 - 09:27 am:

Florida's Sun-Sentinel endorses Romney:

Romney Endorsement by Florida's Sun-Sentinal

That's Debbie Wasserman-Schultz's district.

By Eugene Zuverink (Zube) on Monday, October 29, 2012 - 11:01 am:

Come on Heikki keep adding those newspapers,they all help.

By Heikki (Heikki) on Monday, October 29, 2012 - 12:05 pm:

Just trying to pick the ones that changed their endorsement from 2008 or several election cycles ago. The more left-wing, the better the coup. ;-)

By Marianne Y (Marianne) on Monday, October 29, 2012 - 12:43 pm:

If you're looking for endorsements for President 2012, the following article lists those for a number of Texas papers:

Endorsements from Texas Newspapers

By Waveaction (Lakelover) on Tuesday, October 30, 2012 - 04:23 pm:

Thought I would throw a wrench in the works;

Enough with the fake Romney love. He is the default candidate for a morally reprehensible party. If Obama was white this election would be a landslide for the democrats.

By george piker (Asturgeon) on Tuesday, October 30, 2012 - 05:10 pm:

i believe that if obama had done his duty as
president in the benghazi incident -- he would
win re-election in a landslide. but everything
is muddled now as many are questioning his

what is your idea of 'fake romney love'?
romney is just a smart person that understands
that the current admimistration is out of control
and might not know what to do next.

By Deb S. (Usedtobeayooper) on Tuesday, October 30, 2012 - 06:07 pm:

Not everybody is prejudiced against blacks. It's time for you to stop playing the race card whenever it looks like people are growing tired of the mess our country is in. Not everything is about race. That your mind goes to that all the time really makes me wonder why. There are a lot of blacks out there who would be worthy of the office of the President. This man had his chance and made a bigger mess of what was already a big mess. THAT is why some don't want to vote for him.

By Heikki (Heikki) on Tuesday, October 30, 2012 - 08:41 pm:

Ditto to that, Deb! And another thing, nobody looks to Romney as a "Messiah". He is not narcissistic nor has a chip on his shoulder. He is an accomplished man who happens to have the needed background experience to guide this country back to its economic strength. For without economic strength, national security will be severely affected, standards of living will continue to plummet, and the USA will soon take its place alongside bankrupt European nations. NOBODY will like that. When a country's GNP equals its debt, big trouble is on the horizon. It is clear Prez Obama lacks the needed insight for economic recovery. He seems to be intent on dividing the pie rather than increasing the size of the pie. Should Romney be elected, recovery won't happen overnight. But in a year or two, we should be able to determine if we're on the right course.

By Eugene Zuverink (Zube) on Tuesday, October 30, 2012 - 09:06 pm:

All I can say is very well spoken Deb. Wow I would hate to be Ron. Wow We.

By kosk in Toronto (Koskintoronto) on Tuesday, October 30, 2012 - 09:24 pm:

We have a real crisis in America now, and I have noticed how people
have been rising to it. People, regardless of their political parties,
are trying to rise to the occasion and not use the crisis to gain
political brownie points. I was proud to hear Governor Christie take
an American, rather than a political stand. Whoever wins this
election, we don't need another four years of political
grandstanding where one party votes down and puts down the
other party, and the American people lose out. We all need to
listen, care and compromise. Democracy is about tolerance not

By Heikki (Heikki) on Tuesday, October 30, 2012 - 09:53 pm:

The closest we've come to a totalitarian regime is the 111th Congress with the Executive Branch headed by BHO. The largest takeover (1/6) by government of our economy happened on their watch. It was forced down our throats. They had to pass the bill before they knew what was in it. Tsk..tsk. Democracy is a two-way street.

By Waveaction (Lakelover) on Wednesday, October 31, 2012 - 06:59 am:

I just love getting you all fired up. :)

By Eugene Zuverink (Zube) on Wednesday, October 31, 2012 - 10:06 am:

Well spoken Heikki, can't add anything to that. How true it is.

By FJL (Langoman) on Wednesday, November 7, 2012 - 09:07 am:

Not what I wanted to happen but the 47% plus another 3% did............

By Eugene Zuverink (Zube) on Wednesday, November 7, 2012 - 10:29 am:

Well I don't even know where I am this morning. Am I in America. I can't believe the American people did this.

By Diana P. (Diana) on Wednesday, November 7, 2012 - 12:15 pm:

Zube, disbelief here, too. Looking at the Popular Vote, almost half of Americans are presumably disappointed with the outcome of the Presidential election!

Only slightly more than half of Americans voted for Obama ... but Obama garnered the Electoral Votes, and will be President again.

The Republicans retained control of the House, the Democrats retained control of the Senate. America remains a very divided country.

In his acceptance speech last night, Obama said that he wanted to meet with Romney to hear his ideas on moving our country forward. I hope that Obama meant this. Both sides need to compromise, for the good of America.

By David Hiltunen (Davidcorrytontn) on Wednesday, November 7, 2012 - 12:35 pm:

It's going to be interesting that's for sure.!!

By Shirley Waggoner (Shirlohio) on Wednesday, November 7, 2012 - 01:19 pm:

I have never been so ashamed to be living in Ohio...wish I was back in Tennessee where folks have common sense!!
Okay, Ohio, lets see how you make out in the next 4 years...hmmmmm!!! Evidently you still believe in the 'government Santa Claus'.

By M.P. (Fatdad) on Wednesday, November 7, 2012 - 05:09 pm:

Congrats Prez Obama! Thanks for all your hard work so far, and let's get busy working on the next 4! Might be a *little* easier with the gains in the House and Senate, but not much! Thanks also goes out to the Pasty Cam'ers who helped turn Michigan (and the UP) BLUE!

By Eugene Zuverink (Zube) on Wednesday, November 7, 2012 - 07:32 pm:

Now after all the things Obama said about Romney and how bad Romneys ideas are for the future why would he suck up to Romney. Now tell me who is Obama going to blame in January and after for what he inherited. Just keep George Bush out of this Barack it's all yours now.To me it looks like the same thing. Rep congress,Dem senate and a Dem President.If the President will come up with a budget this time that he knows the congress will pass then he will be on the right track instead of playing these silly games.

By Deb S. (Usedtobeayooper) on Wednesday, November 7, 2012 - 10:41 pm:

Shirley, I agree with you yet again. I am so ashamed to say that Minnesota had no backbone and went blue again. I'm not against blue, mind you. I'm just against Obama. Were it some other blue person running, I may have voted for them, depending on who they were. I think Romney had some good ideas and I thought he could turn the country around.

Diana, hoping they do compromise for the good of the country too. I'm very afraid for the next 4 years.

By FJL (Langoman) on Thursday, November 8, 2012 - 08:42 am:

BLUE, the color of 'hope and change.' Looks like a lot of taxpayers will be feeling blue the next four years...... Note, I said taxpayers...

By Uncle Chuck (Unclechuck) on Thursday, November 8, 2012 - 09:58 am:


By Heikki (Heikki) on Thursday, November 8, 2012 - 12:25 pm:

Let's go easy on Obama. He's only a symptom of the

This anonymous quote was made four years ago and
is still appropriate today:

"The danger to America is not Barack Obama, but a
citizenry capable of entrusting a man like him
with the Presidency. It will be far easier to
limit and undo the follies of an Obama presidency
than to restore the necessary common sense and
good judgement to a depraved electorate willing to
have such a man for their President. The problem
is much deeper and far more serious than Mr.Obama,
who is a mere symptom of what ails America.
Blaming the prince of fools should not bind anyone
to the vast confederacy of fools that made him
their Prince. The Republic can survive a Barack
Obama, who is after all, merely a fool. It is less
likely to survive a multitude of fools such as
those who made him their President."

Reaching Alexis de Tocqueville's tipping point:

"A democracy cannot exist as a permanent
form of government. It can only exist until the
voters discover that they can vote themselves
largesse from the public treasury. From that
moment on, the majority always votes for the
candidates promising the most benefits from the
public treasury with the result that a democracy
always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always
followed by a dictatorship. The average age of
the world's greatest civilizations has been 200

In short, the takers now outnumber (and so can
outvote) the makers. And so, America's decline
has begun in earnest. Now begins the rejoicing of
those around the world who have so long envied and
resented our freedom and success. It is for us to
figure out how to stop the decline.

By Waveaction (Lakelover) on Thursday, November 8, 2012 - 04:20 pm:

Uncle Chuck's post is the best that I have seen. :)

By Eugene Zuverink (Zube) on Thursday, November 8, 2012 - 07:46 pm:

I guess we have to live with it. I read on the internet if Europe could have voted, 80% would have voted for Obama. What do they see that we don't. Will check em out in four years. The insurance companys love this so called Obama care because they will make millions from all the insurance they will sell starting in 2014. Are we sure Romney didn't win.

By Marianne Y (Marianne) on Friday, November 9, 2012 - 08:44 am:

Oh, Zube, the latest news that I heard is that Obama is going to have two so-called private insurance companies, that are actually backed by the government, so the real private health insurance companies will go "under". That will leave us all with government insurance, like it or not, so we'll be like Britain and Canada. Some are saying not to invest in health insurance companies now. Obama won - sad, but true.

By Heikki (Heikki) on Friday, November 9, 2012 - 11:07 am:


Marc Thiessen | November 7, 2012

After he was defeated for re-election in 1989, New
York Mayor Ed Koch was asked if he would ever run
for office again. “No,” Koch replied. “The people
have spoken … and they must be punished.”

Well, it’s November 2012, and the people have
spoken. Here’s how they will be punished.

Exit polls show that by a margin of 52-43,
Americans want less government, not more. By a
margin of 63-33 they do not want to raise taxes to
balance the budget. And by a margin of 49-45, they
want Obamacare either partially or entirely
repealed. None of those wishes will be honored.

1. Obamacare will now become a permanent feature
of the American political landscape. It will never
be repealed.

2. The unprecedented levels of spending in Obama’s
first four years will become the new floor, as
America sets new records for fiscal profligacy and

3. Job creators will face massive tax increases,
and more Americans will come off the tax rolls—
resulting in fewer citizens with a stake in
keeping taxes low and more with a stake in
protecting benefits.

4. Government dependency, already at record
levels, will continue to grow.

5. Four lost years in dealing with the entitlement
crisis will become eight—digging us into a hole
from which we may not be able to emerge.

6. Obama, unworried about the impact of gas and
electricity prices on his reelection, will finally
wage the regulatory war on fossil fuels the Left

7. He will unleash the Environmental Protection
Agency to impose crushing new burdens on U.S.

8. His administration’s assault on religious
freedom will go on and expand to new areas.

9. The Defense Department will be gutted, with
cuts so deep that America will no longer be a

10. Obama will almost certainly have the
opportunity to appoint more liberal Supreme Court
justices, possibly replacing conservatives on the
high court — ending the Roberts court in all but
name for a generation.

And that’s only the beginning. Welcome to Obama’s
second term. (#3, #4, The Cloward-Piven strategy
still at work.)

By Deb S. (Usedtobeayooper) on Saturday, November 10, 2012 - 08:19 am:

God help us, Heikki!!!!

By Heikki (Heikki) on Saturday, November 10, 2012 - 09:05 am:

That is true, Deb S. Now, I must acknowledge you
were correct so many moons ago. Somewhere way up
the line on one of these threads, you stated voters
should have to pass a test before casting their
ballot. I disagreed. I was wrong.

By Deb S. (Usedtobeayooper) on Saturday, November 10, 2012 - 01:57 pm:

LOL, Heikki!! Hindsight is 20/20!

By Shirley Waggoner (Shirlohio) on Tuesday, November 13, 2012 - 07:14 pm:

I see in today's news that Texas is getting together a petition to secede from the nation. Think I'll move to Texas!!!
Heikki, you hit the proverbial nail on the head.
God, please help us!

By Deb S. (Usedtobeayooper) on Tuesday, November 13, 2012 - 07:38 pm:

I think we should all try that and see what Washington thinks about that. Think they'll finally get the hint?

By FRNash/PHX, AZ (Frnash) on Wednesday, November 14, 2012 - 11:18 am:

From The Washington Times, Wednesday, Nov 14, 2012, (click → ) "Some states petition to secede from the United States":


"At last count, 40 states were listed as petitioning the government for permission to withdraw."

Shirley Waggoner (Shirlohio) on Wednesday, November 14, 2012 - 11:55 am:

Just recently learned that the 'head' of the current administration signed a 'law' during his first four years, that gives the government to 'right' to haul any citizen into imprisonment without a 'cause'? Think that can't happen in this country?....it happened under Abraham Lincoln, to citizens of NY and Baltimore, during the War Between the States. This is serious business, folks!

By george piker (Asturgeon) on Wednesday, November 14, 2012 - 03:02 pm:

don't sign these petitions to secede from
the us. it will only get you on a
list of dissidents for the mighty
government and you might become a target.

By Waveaction (Lakelover) on Wednesday, November 14, 2012 - 03:09 pm:

Great link FRNash. That explains it all.
Did anyone get to see Obama's press conference today?

By Shirley Waggoner (Shirlohio) on Wednesday, November 14, 2012 - 03:26 pm:

Not me, Waveaction, been there, heard that. I preferred listening to Rush.

By Waveaction (Lakelover) on Wednesday, November 14, 2012 - 04:24 pm:

How sad that the people of the United States of America have decided who their friends were after this election. It's not right for good friends to hate each other over politics.

Obama was great. All he wants to do for now is "modify" the taxes on the rich by taking their loop holes away. That seems fair. If this act doesn't pass, us "average" Americans will be paying more taxes. That means no Christmas for us "not rich" people.
If you don't agree to this act, then move to Texas because you must have more money than the rest of us. :(

By Waveaction (Lakelover) on Wednesday, November 14, 2012 - 04:37 pm:

Here's the best part of FRNash's link;

"Sore losers are now going to the White House website to petition the government to allow their states to secede from the union. At last count, 40 states were listed as petitioning the government for permission to withdraw."

"Sore losers" is the key word.

By george piker (Asturgeon) on Wednesday, November 14, 2012 - 05:58 pm:

waveaction, you still don't get it -- huh?
still the class warfare stuff.

whether you know it or not -- whether
taxes on the rich can be raised or not --
everyone in the middle class will be paying
higher taxes (and expenses) in the coming
years due to high energy costs and obamacare.
and gee, all because the administration
failed to address the economy in favor
of it's subserviants.

and of course, we all know raising taxes on the
rich won't solve any of the us's fiscal problems.
red herring.

for entertainment, try reading ayn rand.

By Deb S. (Usedtobeayooper) on Wednesday, November 14, 2012 - 06:12 pm:

I wouldn't watch Obama's press conference if I were bound and sat in front of the television. I'd totally tune him out. I've heard all I want to hear from him, and I don't believe a word out of his mouth.

Oh, and I didn't lose any friends over this election, and I'll say it before it's mentioned here. It's not that I DON'T have any friends. I only have one friend who likes Obama. And she and I are still great friends! We just stay away from that topic. The rest of my friends are in the same situation that I'm in....disgusted!

By Eugene Zuverink (Zube) on Thursday, November 15, 2012 - 09:45 am:

Waveaction,why should the rich pay more, isn't that called discrimination.Why should they pay more because they had the brains and the luck to make more. Wouldn't a flat tax be the way to go than everyone pays the same.That way the rich would pay more than the less fortunate and we wouldn't just be picking on the rich.I'm still waiting for someone even you waveaction to tell us one GOOD thing he has done for our country.
Not that he gave orders to take out Ben Laden or that he pulled most of our troops out of Iraq.
Any President would have done those things. Other than that what has he done. I know he lives more in Air Force one than he does in Washington. He sure takes advantage of the office,but it's only some of your tax money waveaction.

By Eugene Zuverink (Zube) on Thursday, November 15, 2012 - 09:53 am:

By the way Deb I did watch Obamas teleprompter speech,and when he was asked questions he answered every one truthfully. He is a very truthful and honest President. LOL

By Waveaction (Lakelover) on Thursday, November 15, 2012 - 11:10 am:

Wow, Eugene....you have all of the answers, why didn't you run for president?

By Waveaction (Lakelover) on Thursday, November 15, 2012 - 04:08 pm:

"Not that he gave orders to take out Ben Laden or that he pulled most of our troops out of Iraq.
Any President would have done those things."

First of all; it's Bin Laden, second of all, if any president could have done that, then why didn't Bush?

By Eugene Zuverink (Zube) on Thursday, November 15, 2012 - 07:43 pm:

Waveaction "Joanie" If you read my post again. I said "any President would have". But President Bush didn't know where he was. President Obama got lucky to find where he was and took him out.
Maybe next time I will run.

By Heikki (Heikki) on Thursday, November 15, 2012 - 09:35 pm:

Actually, all G.W. did was give the nod to the CIA
to go after OBL. After OBL was found and a plan
formulated and rehearsed by the SEALS, all BHO did
was give the nod to get him. If not for the
waterboarding of Khalid Sheikh Mohammed, the CIA may
still be looking for OBL. It was from Khalid Sheikh
Mohammed the CIA learned the name of the courier who
ran errands for OBL and eventually led us to OBL in
Pakistan. Just one of those things BHO 'inherited'
from the previous administration and gladly took the

By Eugene Zuverink (Zube) on Thursday, November 15, 2012 - 09:57 pm:

I agree and you said it so well Heikki.Thats just how it went down. You or I or even Waveaction could have given the nod after Bush did what he did.

By Deb S. (Usedtobeayooper) on Friday, November 16, 2012 - 07:59 am:

So true Heikki. BUT, I will say that in my opinion, Bush shifted focus off of Bin Laden and onto Saddam Hussein, which I did not think was right. Bin Laden is who we were after, not Hussein. But that's just my opinion!

By Shirley Waggoner (Shirlohio) on Friday, November 16, 2012 - 09:31 am:

No hate in my heart....just frustration, disappointment and sadness for our country because I feel this was an illegitimate (se)lection!

By Heikki (Heikki) on Friday, November 16, 2012 - 11:08 am:

Agree, Deb S., but as you commented six days ago,
"Hindsight is 20/20". At the time, it was believed
by most (including Dem. members of Congress)
Saddam Hussein had WMD. This is the reason GW was
given congressional approval to take whatever
military action necessary. The concern over Iraq
having WMD started during the Clinton
Administration. Much 'ballyhoo' was made of this
on the news by then Sen. Hillary Clinton, the late
Sen. Ted Kennedy, Sen. John Kerry, etal. You may
be able to find their comments yet on
It wasn't the first nor will it be the last time
military action was taken on an enemy's bluff or
bad intel.

I still think Saddam hid some WMD's during the
long delays in the U.N. Security Council. He did
bury some high performance jet aircraft in the
desert. That has been verified. So, if he was
inclined to do that, why not WMD's?

By Deb S. (Usedtobeayooper) on Friday, November 16, 2012 - 10:43 pm:

Agreed, Shirley!!

Very true, Heikki, but I still didn't like the decision.

By Heikki (Heikki) on Saturday, November 17, 2012 - 07:22 am:

Those are the conditions decision-makers on a high
level must deal with at times. A darned if you do,
darned if you don't situation. To err on the side of
security is the one most chosen, something
apparently not done in Benghazi.

By Deb S. (Usedtobeayooper) on Saturday, November 17, 2012 - 08:42 am:

Exactly, Heikki. It'd be nice to see the right person held accountable for THAT blunder. That was awful!

By Eugene Zuverink (Zube) on Saturday, November 17, 2012 - 10:22 am:

Stryker Corp headquarters in Kalamazoo to lay off 5% of there employees due to "Obama"care. They want to cut back before it hits. They have 20 thousand plus employes. Hostess,18,500 employes done because of the union.They want to just push and push until the company says lock the doors.
Never satisfied. Now they can get in the bread line and the tax payers can pay for them.When will it end.

By Shirley Waggoner (Shirlohio) on Saturday, November 17, 2012 - 04:04 pm:

Eugene, hope they won't be looking for "Wonder" bread in that line....nor "Twinkies", nor "Ding Dongs", nor "Hostess Cupcakes", nor....
Unfortunately, it won't end until people wake up! If memory serves me correctly, John F. Kennedy wrote a book called "Why England Slept" ...someone needs to write one called "WHILE America Slept".

By Deb S. (Usedtobeayooper) on Saturday, November 17, 2012 - 07:52 pm:

Never thought about that, Shirley. Why oh why are we sleeping? Well, I'M not sleeping.

By Eugene Zuverink (Zube) on Sunday, November 18, 2012 - 10:30 am:

Thats good Shirley. They will have to find something different than Wonder bread. They won't live the same life style they did when they were getting a pay check from there company. Stupid foolish people. Now where will they find a job.

By Shirley Waggoner (Shirlohio) on Sunday, November 18, 2012 - 11:24 am:

Well Eugene, guess they'd better get their 'shovels ready'! But afraid there's nothing out there to 'dig' for anymore.

By Marianne Y (Marianne) on Sunday, November 18, 2012 - 01:58 pm:

If I understand it correctly, 300 bakers put 18,100 people out of work because of their selfishness. Not very bright of the 300, if you ask me. I can't understand how they were thinking - that's for sure!

By Eugene Zuverink (Zube) on Sunday, November 18, 2012 - 07:17 pm:

Marianne, Hostess made the union one last offer and 90% of the union people that voted,voted NO so Hostess said lock the doors. So lock the doors they did,sorry folks to late now,go find another job if you can.

By Eugene Zuverink (Zube) on Sunday, November 18, 2012 - 07:38 pm:

Now Government Motors is going to increase entry level pay by $3.00 to $19.00 per hr. The UAW wanted $8.00 to $10.00 more per hr. Total cost to Government Motors 242.2 mil. They owe The US taxpayers 27.2 Billion which they are not going to pay back. Pretty good deal,eh

By Shirley Waggoner (Shirlohio) on Monday, November 19, 2012 - 10:11 am:

Eugene, wouldn't that be nice for folks who want to buy a car or house.....get the loan and just walk away 'owing' nothing! The American 'DREAM'?

By Eugene Zuverink (Zube) on Monday, November 19, 2012 - 04:58 pm:

That would be Shirley,but you have to deal with President Obama to get these deals.Solyndra was another one of his smart, excuse me 'stupid' deels
787 billion dollars down the drain. It's only taxpayer money that our great great grandchildren have to pay back.

By FJL (Langoman) on Saturday, December 8, 2012 - 09:14 am:

Michigan becomming a "right to work state" is something I thought would never happen. Good things occur with the right party in charge......

By Deb S. (Usedtobeayooper) on Saturday, December 8, 2012 - 01:39 pm:

What does that mean, FJL? Not being sarcastic here, I just really don't know.

By FJL (Langoman) on Saturday, December 8, 2012 - 03:12 pm:

It means you will not be forced to join a union to work. The choice is yours.

By george piker (Asturgeon) on Saturday, December 8, 2012 - 04:04 pm:

finally, a small step in the right direction.
it may not be a done deal yet.

By Shirley Waggoner (Shirlohio) on Sunday, December 9, 2012 - 06:06 pm:

That's strange, FJL, I thought the Democratic party was the UNION party! They've pushed unionizing companies for years. Remember Walter Reuther? Big Democrat, big union leader!

By Eugene Zuverink (Zube) on Monday, December 10, 2012 - 06:40 pm:

Michigan is the largest unionized state, 17.5 workers belong to a union, and not by ther choice.
Indiania just passed the right to work law. Michigan is the 24th state to do it. To me the union is like the Mafia, you pay me I protect you.
And it's wages wages wages they don't stop. It is no wonder things cost so much,and it's no wonder companys move out of our country. And today Obama had to go to Detroit and stick his nose in it. He is against it and says it is the wrong way to go, Ya he's a good one to make comment after adding
6.5 trillion to our debt, what does he know.

By Shirley Waggoner (Shirlohio) on Monday, December 10, 2012 - 07:29 pm:

Amen, Eugene! Good post!!

By Deb S. (Usedtobeayooper) on Monday, December 10, 2012 - 08:12 pm:

I'm with ya to, Gene!!

By Eugene Zuverink (Zube) on Monday, December 10, 2012 - 08:16 pm:

Obama wants people who make $250,000.00 or more to pay more, I think they do now, they sure pay more than the guy that makes $10,000.00. Why does a person that makes that kind of money be picked on. It seems to me that is discrimination. Why should they be penalized because they have the brains or what ever to get to that level. Why we don't through out our whole tax system and go to a flat tax is be on me. How much less paper work would there be. We could get rid of thousands of government workers. Just think of the people that
sit around all day thinking of other ways to tax us. A flat tax would get rid of so many useless

By FJL (Langoman) on Tuesday, December 11, 2012 - 08:06 am:

What is happening now in Lansing is what took place for 1&1/2 years at Madison Wi. Harassment and continued disruption to vistors and workers by paid union thugs and radicals from all over the nation. The union threats against Gov. failed then as they will now in Mich.....

By Eugene Zuverink (Zube) on Tuesday, December 11, 2012 - 10:55 am:

I am watching the Michigan House in session on TV right now discusing the right to work bill and hearing Democrat after Democrat get up and sob about how this is being shoved down there throat.
We didn't hear any of this from them when the so called Obama health care was shoved down our throats.

By Waveaction (Lakelover) on Tuesday, December 11, 2012 - 01:41 pm:

No unions, less pay. :( I am a union backer. If it wasn't for my husband's union, we would have no health care or pension.

By FJL (Langoman) on Tuesday, December 11, 2012 - 03:57 pm:

Not all pensioners with health care belonged to unions. There are a lot of people out there that did it on their own. Thats called initiative...

By Waveaction (Lakelover) on Tuesday, December 11, 2012 - 04:02 pm:

No FJL, that's called using your own money.

By Eugene Zuverink (Zube) on Tuesday, December 11, 2012 - 07:47 pm:

Waveaction who do you think is paying for your husbands pension and health care. The consumer is lady.

By Eugene Zuverink (Zube) on Tuesday, December 11, 2012 - 08:17 pm:

This is how nasty some unions are. they think of themselves and no one else. This was in 2008 have no idea what it is today. Lifestyle drugs--chiefly ••••••--are costing General Motors $17 milliona year and the cost is passed along to car, truck and suv consumers. The blue pill is covered under GM's labor agreement with .United Auto Workers, as well as benefit plans for salaried employees.It is the worlds largest private purchaser of ••••••. General Motors adds $2000.00 to each vehicle to pay for health care.
So again,who pays for this. And all this kind of junk goes on and GM owes the US taxpayers $27.2
Billion dollors which they say they can not pay back. THANK YOU OBAMA!!

By Shirley Waggoner (Shirlohio) on Wednesday, December 12, 2012 - 09:23 am:

Listening this morning to the reports from Michigan on the union shenanigans yesterday. Lots of innocent folks injured! You're right, Eugene, thinking only of themselves! My response?....it figures!!

By Waveaction (Lakelover) on Wednesday, December 12, 2012 - 11:19 am:

Study up on the Construction Trade Unions. It might do you some good.

By FJL (Langoman) on Wednesday, December 12, 2012 - 12:11 pm:

Sadly, the union thugs in action at the Capital don't have a name tag identifying them. So even though the Construction union members aren't there they will also be blamed. Or are they there??

By Shirley Waggoner (Shirlohio) on Wednesday, December 12, 2012 - 12:22 pm:

My husband was a member of a construction trade union for over 20 years.....and believe me, we saw how they operated. He made better money in the construction industry after he left the union.

By Eugene Zuverink (Zube) on Wednesday, December 12, 2012 - 01:41 pm:

Tell us about the Construction Trade Union Waveaction. Yes they were all there even many school teachers skipped school. They sure showed what a bunch of thugs some of them are.You are right Shirley this is not about wages and it proves it if your husband did better without the union. Just watch how many union members that are paying now say I don't want to pay union dues any longer. Just where does all the union dues go.
Rush said this morning that many many dollors go to support the Democratic Party. He said when there is an election they put there money behind
a Democratic candidate.So that is a great thing to pay dues for.

By Waveaction (Lakelover) on Wednesday, December 12, 2012 - 01:42 pm:

Well folks, this Democrat is outta here. Best of luck to you all.

By jbuck (Jbuck) on Wednesday, December 12, 2012 - 02:53 pm:

My Dad was a contractor and had nothing to do with the unions; they paid their employees better than union wage. The trouble came when they won a contract to build a post office. The union thugs came in and beat the %$#@ out of all the men there that day. Were there any arrests? This was in Flint ~ what do you think?

By Shirley Waggoner (Shirlohio) on Thursday, December 13, 2012 - 10:52 am:

Yes, Eugene, Rush hit it right on the nose yesterday. And as per your Monday post (12/10) referring to the union as a 'protection' agency...my husband and I came to that conclusion years ago. And even at that, it depended on how close one was with the 'leaders of the local', and of course if you played your cards right!

By kosk in Toronto (Koskintoronto) on Thursday, December 13, 2012 - 11:53 am:

If you want to read an amazing story that has nothing to do with
politics, please see yesterday's What's UP. That's a story I bet we
can all agree about this Christmas season.

By Shirley Waggoner (Shirlohio) on Thursday, December 13, 2012 - 01:27 pm:

Well, Kosk, I guess that's the reason it's on What's Up instead of this 'Politics' page.;>

By dan belo (Djbelo) on Wednesday, January 23, 2013 - 03:16 pm:


By FRNash/PHX, AZ (Frnash) on Thursday, January 24, 2013 - 01:55 pm:

dan belo (Djbelo):
Is your caps lock stuck, or were you really SHOUTING?
Perhaps the former, as I see your spelling checker must be out of service as well:

"DISSAPATING"?, "DECISSIONS"?: [dissipating, decisions]
"… WE CAN JUDGE A PERSON BY THERE [sic] EFFECTS …": [Where effects?]
"… SOME USE THERE [sic] ENERGY TO DESTROY …": [Where energy?]

By Shirley Waggoner (Shirlohio) on Saturday, January 26, 2013 - 11:02 am:

Good point, Dan Belo!
Some people have to be shouted at because they have no understanding....nor manners!

By Waveaction (Lakelover) on Saturday, January 26, 2013 - 11:42 am:

FRNash/PHX, AZ (Frnash); You always seem to have "a way with words". :)

By dan belo (Djbelo) on Sunday, February 17, 2013 - 03:35 pm:

Form of ridicule

The use of sic can be seen as an example of the linguistic device of appeal to ridicule, whether intentional or not, because it highlights perceived irregularities. The application of sic with intent to disparage has been called the "benighted use" because it creates a "false sense of superiority" in its users.

By dan belo (Djbelo) on Sunday, February 17, 2013 - 03:52 pm:

The adjective öéëüëïãïò (philologos) meant "fond of discussion or argument, talkative", in Hellenistic Greek also implying an excessive ("sophistic") preference of argument over the love of true wisdom, öéëüóïöïò (philosophos).

By FRNash/PHX, AZ (Frnash) on Sunday, February 17, 2013 - 05:41 pm:

dan belo (Djbelo):
"The adjective öéëüëïãïòc (philologos) … öéëüóïöïò (philosophos)."

Or perhaps: "Φιλόλογος" (philologos)
and "Φιλοσόφου" (philosophos)?

By Eugene Zuverink (Zube) on Monday, June 3, 2013 - 01:48 pm:

Has anyone ever seen such corruption in one party
as what is going on now, Watergate was nothing.
Just one lie after another. And some people didn't
like Bushes administration,WOW! Now let's see who
is going to prison first. Just like the old saying
Politicians should serve two terms, one in office and one in prison.What is going on in Washington
is beyond belief.

By george piker (Asturgeon) on Tuesday, June 11, 2013 - 04:27 pm:

zube, it depends on which party one supports.
we democrats believe that obama is doing
the correct thing. it is important to us that
conservatives, tea party supporters be
destroyed, suppressed -- whatever it takes
to eradicate them. we don't worry about
republicans because they're really
democrats in disguise. so we're happy.
it's haymaking season. fun, fun, fun.

By Eugene Zuverink (Zube) on Friday, June 14, 2013 - 12:21 pm:

George seeing you are a Democrat you wouldn't admit to any wrong doing on there part. So it would be hard to discuss it with you. What right thing is Obama doing right. I can't think of one thing he has done for the good of the country.
Believe me George not ALL democrats feel the way you do, Many are fed up with him. After four and a half years and you still haven't seen the light.
The next three and a half--- watch out.

By Deb S. (Usedtobeayooper) on Friday, June 14, 2013 - 05:53 pm:

I'm with Zube. I'm not a Republican but I would never say this
guy has been good for our country. I would say just the
opposite is true.

By george piker (Asturgeon) on Saturday, June 15, 2013 - 05:36 pm:

zube, what obama is doing to the country is
what we believe should be done. he is being
masterful and no conservative can stop it.

certainly, some democrats have some misgivings.
for example, why is obama continuing to give
aid to al qaeda -- and he just announced that
he would give aid to syrian rebels (he's been
doing it all along and as in the case of lybia --
the rebels are al qaeda). i don't support
this. but i guess i understand his feelings.

back to domestic politics. in my opinion, it is
becoming clearer that most americans are
liberals -- no matter what they say they are.
they love the idea of unlimited government
support no matter who pays. they want the
security and fear that it might disappear
under republican or conservative

you cannot fight the insecurity, zube.

By Eugene Zuverink (Zube) on Monday, June 17, 2013 - 10:07 am:

George your funny. Also Deb says she is not a
Republican but I know different,down deep she is,
right Deb. George you still haven't said any thing
good Obama has done you said all things that are not good so why don't you change partys like Deb is ready to do. George Obama is a bad man, he
doesn't have a clue what he is doing or what to do next and his VP is another story.

By george piker (Asturgeon) on Monday, June 17, 2013 - 03:39 pm:

zube, i guess you're not listening.

what i said was that obama is assimulating
republicans and alienating republicans
against conservatives. very important to
we democrats as it will be easier to
incorporate liberal programs. just wait
for the 2014 elections and you'll
understand -- and maybe you, too will be

obama understands that it is extremely important
to most americans to have a guaranteed
security and that's what he's been doing
for 4+ years. you can't fight it, zube.

obama has also enlisted big business support
along the way --- in many ways.
nobody can fight big government and
big business.

By Eugene Zuverink (Zube) on Monday, June 17, 2013 - 04:19 pm:

Well George, Today the question was asked if they trust the President 48% said no 48% said yes
so in other words the President is a liar.
When they ask him a question he says he doesn't
know anything about it.Do you believe him George.
If he is telling the truth then he is not a well
informed President and he is spending to much
time on the golf course and to much time on
airforce one. Now George you just sit all by yourself and just think about this man, and if
you really get serious you well say ya I think
old Zube is right. And by the way George 2014
the Republicans well take over the Senate because
of Obamas poor showing.I think you well change
partys soon George, it's just a matter of time.

By Shirley Waggoner (Shirlohio) on Wednesday, June 26, 2013 - 01:41 pm:

George, I'd guess you have a 'first class' ticket on that 'basket' that's on its way to you know where! Enjoy the ride!

By Deb S. (Usedtobeayooper) on Wednesday, June 26, 2013 - 01:51 pm:

Right on Shirley.

By george piker (Asturgeon) on Wednesday, June 26, 2013 - 03:57 pm:

shirley and deb,
i don't have a clue what you're talking
about. can you explain your surmises?

By Waveaction (Lakelover) on Thursday, June 27, 2013 - 08:26 am:

No one is listening, George, except for me. :)

By Eugene Zuverink (Zube) on Thursday, June 27, 2013 - 08:37 am:

George the US is 17 trillion in the hole and still
Obama went to Africa with his family "vacation"
and that will cost about 50 bucks. You still
haven't said one "good" thing he has done for the country.

By Shirley Waggoner (Shirlohio) on Thursday, June 27, 2013 - 02:12 pm:

Heard yesterday that BO's 'vacation' to Africa will hit $100 MILLION! Just think what the folks in flood/tornado ravaged towns could do with that amount! Boggles the mind!

By george piker (Asturgeon) on Thursday, June 27, 2013 - 02:52 pm:

zube, 17 trillion is nothing in an economy as
robust as the us economy. all we have to do
is print more money and that's just what
president obama is directing to be done.

obviously, the president has different views
on global matters than you do. it is
probably extremely important that he
meets with african leaders.

c'mon zube, what about ACA? all americans will
love this law once we understand it.

By Waveaction (Lakelover) on Thursday, June 27, 2013 - 04:15 pm:

Zube is like a UP sandhill crane, he has his head stuck in the sand. :)

By Deb S. (Usedtobeayooper) on Thursday, June 27, 2013 - 09:18 pm:

Can you go nowhere without insulting somebody, Joanie?

By Eugene Zuverink (Zube) on Thursday, June 27, 2013 - 09:29 pm:

George I know you and the lady from Ontonagon
are Democrats because you both sound like one.
George you say we have a robust economy,where are you getting this from. Don't you understand there
are more than 14 million plus out of work.The
national rate is about 28% because the ones that
do not qualify for unempolyment are not counted
so you call that robust, thats what Obama would say also. Now the lady from Ontonagon never
has said anything intelligent. You print money
George when you have no place to borrow money
from anymore and when you print money the value
of the dollar goes DOWN
Now I have no clue what ACA is American Canine
Association or American Correctional Association
or what.we will all love this law once we understand it---What!! Thats like Plosie saying
lets pass it so we can find out whats in it.

By Eugene Zuverink (Zube) on Thursday, June 27, 2013 - 09:35 pm:

George why do you think Obama had to meet with
the African leaders, I can think of NO reason
other than to teach them to play golf.

By Shirley Waggoner (Shirlohio) on Friday, June 28, 2013 - 08:37 am:

I don't know, Zube, I don't think BO's even good at golf.
His trip to Africa??....visiting his 'homeland'!!

By george piker (Asturgeon) on Friday, June 28, 2013 - 03:40 pm:

careful, shirley

evidence so far shows hawaii is bho's

remember the NSA is watching.

By Shirley Waggoner (Shirlohio) on Saturday, June 29, 2013 - 09:04 am:

"Evidence"??....yeah ~ right!

Your last statement?....shakin' in my boots.:>

By Deb S. (Usedtobeayooper) on Saturday, June 29, 2013 - 12:20 pm:

The only person who has me shaking in my boots is BO.

By Waveaction (Lakelover) on Saturday, June 29, 2013 - 04:38 pm:

“Look at what you've got and make the best of it. It is better to light a candle than to curse the darkness.”

By Mary Drew at Pasty Central (Mdrew) on Monday, September 20, 2021 - 01:12 pm:

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