June

Keweenaw Issues: Anonymous Ranting: 2001: June
An archive of previous comments

By Humanist on Saturday, June 30, 2001 - 08:30 pm:

Caught a Big 'Un,

Girls who did not know the facts of life have gotten pregnant, not understanding the risks they were taking. I disagree that sex education leads to premature sexual activity, just as I disagree with those who contend that firearms education leads to murder. In fact, I think that a person is less likely to harm oneself or others after receiving firearms education, and is also less likely to harm oneself or others after receiving sex education.

Parents have daily opportunities to point out both appropriate and inappropriate sexual activities to their children as news events unfold and as ads appear on television, etc., and to reiterate to their children in different ways what distinguishes the appropriate from the inappropriate. But that is hard to do if one's children are clueless about sex.


By Some Old News on Saturday, June 30, 2001 - 06:38 pm:

Red Jacket,
Gosh, big fella, pretty brave what with coming out decked in red. Usually you'd be wearing a white collar and a shoeshine.

At any rate, your second link had this interesting historical tidit as an alter-title: HENRY HYDE, THE MAN WHO WILL SIT IN JUDGMENT ON PRESIDENT CLINTON, CONFIRMS THAT HE CARRIED ON A SECRET AFFAIR.

The argument being, of course, that adultery is okay as long as one does not get caught. Gosh, those are the kind of family values I'd look for in a news source.

A very old man who used to milk cows told me last year, "the country is going to h-ll in handbasket," as he sat on an old wooden bench under an older gnarled apple tree. In the distance, an airplane flew.


By Caught a Big 'Un today on Saturday, June 30, 2001 - 05:32 pm:

Appears that the current discussion has accepted one argument (both sides) without discussion.

Children will try to behave like married adults and children will engage in activity that is better left for the marriage bed.

That is one issue that is being ignored. It need not be that way, it is not the way our Creator wanted His Creation to be. That both sides have already accepted that children will have sex is an unfortunate biproduct (waste product) of our times.

But notice the moral high ground taken by those who would argue for sex education by someone other than a parent. The argument is that any parent who doesn't educate their child in the ways of sexual reproduction and biology is ignorant, while the "free-thinking" "liberal" "humanist" would argue that the State or the School should provide this education---why? Because it is a forgone conclusion that kids will have sex.

I think it is about time that the fathers of this country put their pants back on and start being fathers again.


By Red Jacket on Saturday, June 30, 2001 - 03:25 pm:

moi, you say "conservatives hold decent old-time moral values". Here is a small sample of the decent old-time moral values of conservative heroes from the "family values" crowd.

Newt Gingrich started having affairs in high school
Henry Hyde broke up a family with his adulterous affair
Dan Burton's adulterous life is legendary in Indiana
Pro-life Bob Barr paid for his second wife's abortion
Mike Bowers committed sex offenses himself while prosecuting others
Bob Livingston lost the house speakership over his many adulteries
"Helen [Chenoweth] is living proof that you can ____ your brains out."--GOP operative
Newt Gingrich committed adultery even while directing the family values campaign


By D. Berry on Saturday, June 30, 2001 - 03:04 pm:

Ya, what possible connection could there be between sex and the Keweenaw anyway?

Oh.


By Doc Quincy on Saturday, June 30, 2001 - 02:58 pm:

I'm prescribing you a sedative, Confused.
Just take a deep breath and everything will be alright tomorrow morning.


By confused on Saturday, June 30, 2001 - 01:59 pm:

Keweenaw Issues????? What a shame that even this site can't be used for what it was intended. GO TO THE CHAT ROOM KIDS!!!!!


By Eric Jong on Saturday, June 30, 2001 - 12:10 pm:

Whatever “shame” may be connected to sexuality has more to do with human anatomy than liberal or conservative ideology. The sexual-reproductive and “waste management” systems of the human body are positioned like siamese twins in the lower abdomen.
Or, to put it in more colloquial terms for your average boy-about-to turn-man out there:
“Now let me get this straight. You’re tellin’ me that thing I’ve been peeing out of for 13 years is also where half the baby comes from?”
This is a highly counterintuitive notion to the sexually naïve. I think kids should understand the anatomy and functions of the reproductive organs at an early age(though not educated in sexual “behaviors” they cannot really understand until reaching puberty). Perhaps more importantly, they should also be told by Mom and Dad that if some adult takes a strange interest in those parts that this is not good and should be reported back to Mom and Dad. Of course, a little “shame” may accrue from this knowledge but I think it is a healthy kind of shame(i.e. a developing sense of “personal privacy” as it were.) Going to the bathroom and having sex are two areas where human privacy is naturally strived for due, I believe, to biological reasons that transcend such abstract concepts as “shame”.


By Red Jacket on Saturday, June 30, 2001 - 11:29 am:

moi, you are wrong. The hippies were the children of conservatives who failed to teach their kids about sex.


By flaky on Saturday, June 30, 2001 - 10:31 am:

Pampered,
I don't think that it ever would end with "just" teaching them how their bodies work. When they have to start teaching them how to play with themselves, they've gone much, much too far. It breaks my heart to see how young people act, dress, interact nowadays. Childhood is so short, and that innocence should be preserved during that short time. They have their whole life to worry about sex, and the LOAD of worries that occur in adulthood. It is sad to see that it is adults who are usually pushing for the kids to grow up faster and faster. Too many adults try to re-live their youth through their children.


By moi on Saturday, June 30, 2001 - 08:32 am:

Red Jacket,
Because conservatives hold decent old-time moral values, and liberals hold shove-it-in-your-face hippie values that promote sex.


By moi on Saturday, June 30, 2001 - 08:29 am:

Of course kids will talk to each other about sex, usually distorted. It's part of growing up, and won't prevent a kid from asking parents the truth about what he/she's been hearing. If you speak freely about sex and body parts, what's to encourage a kid to abstain? It makes a much deeper impression to set guidelines that you expect to be followed, than to explain something in detail but say "don't do it". Kids are human, they will break rules, but teaching at an earlier age doesn't change anything.


By Red Jacket on Saturday, June 30, 2001 - 07:48 am:

Bigbrotherbilly, what makes sex ed a liberal-conservative issue? This argument puts education and truth and honesty against ignorance and lies. Why should conservative always = ignorance and lies? On sex ed and so many other things?


By Humanist on Friday, June 29, 2001 - 11:29 pm:

moi, Bigbrotherbilly, and Eric Jong,

I respect your beliefs, but your experiences have clearly been much different from mine. My own opinion is that if parents wait until their kids are teenagers to start educating them about sex, almost all of those kids will have received their primary sex education by asking their classmates about it (unless you do home-schooling), and their parents will have lost the opportunity to control the presentation. Kids are perceptive, and if they detect that their parents consider it shameful to be curious about sex, then they won't direct their questions to the very people--their parents--who can give them the proper guidance.


By Eric Jong on Friday, June 29, 2001 - 10:54 pm:

On Sex, Religion and Public Schools:
I've felt for many years now that children should be taught basic human biology as early as possible. It is the single-most important knowledge they will ever acquire when it comes to understanding how the body works and for optimizing personal health. I don't think teaching them the reality of sexual behavior is either necessary or good though until they reach puberty at which point teachers should refer them to their parents for breaking the ice on how adulthood works if they haven't yet been informed just so they don't make any naive mistakes.
The beauty and innocence of childhood is something worth preserving considering how short a period it really is. I didn't have a clue about where babies came from until my teenage hormones kicked in and I'm certain to this day I didn't miss a thing for remaining ignorant about it.

I have no problem with a comparative religion course being taught in public schools just so kids can become more aware that the specific religious tradition they happen to have been inculcated with is neither infallible nor the only one on the planet. Way too much blood is shed by adults arguing over whose unprovable and unfalsifiable belief is the one true faith. Undestanding that there are many beliefs held by people in the larger world helps to give any young person some much needed intellectual perspective.

Now, for those of you worried about mixing another kind of oil and water:

June 29, 2001
In Slap at Bush, House Votes to Bar Oil Drilling in Great Lakes
By DAVID E. ROSENBAUM
WASHINGTON, June 28 — In another slap at President Bush's energy and environment policies, the House of Representatives voted today to prohibit drilling for oil and gas in the Great Lakes.
The president has not taken a specific stand on exploration in the Great Lakes, but his energy policy is based on increasing domestic oil and gas production.

Click here for rest of story

By Bigbrotherbilly on Friday, June 29, 2001 - 09:35 pm:

Moi,

I'm right behind you on this issue. I also believe that kids don't need to know about sex ed until they become develloped and start to question on their own time. Sex ed has no business being taught in the liberal school systems that we have nowadays. The schools figure if it feels good do it because planned parenthood will help them murder their baby if need be.


By moi on Friday, June 29, 2001 - 09:03 pm:

I don't think young kids NEED to know about sex. They have plenty of time to find out. When they hear of it and ask, then a parent can fill them in. If they don't ask, then by late elementary they learn the puberty issues, and at middle school level they can learn about sex gradually. What's the hurry? You don't have to let your young pre-teens hang out with the opposite sex unchaperoned! What happened to rules and discipline? Why rush kids out of childhood? Too many parents treat their kids as adults, then believe that their kids THINK as adults. Not so. Sorry, I don't budge on this one.


By Humanist on Friday, June 29, 2001 - 07:54 pm:

moi,

Would you be opposed to having schools teach just the biology of sex, and have each family be responsible for teaching their kids their own standards for responsible sexual content? Isn't it sexual behavior that engenders controversy, while the biology of it is undisputed?

If you aren't willing to teach children about sex at a young age, how do you give honest answers their many questions about it? I know I was curious about sex from a very young age, and so were many (but not all) of the kids I knew. And my own kids certainly were curious about how they came to be born and, as they got older, other sexual matters.

As for shame and privacy with regard to sex, I don't consider sex to be shameful in the least (and can't ever remember feeling any shame about it, even as a teenager), but I do prefer some privacy.


By Ms. V. - St. Paul, MN on Friday, June 29, 2001 - 04:20 pm:

To "flaky" -
What I take from this discussion is that if parents don't want to teach their kids sex-ed, fine, but don't inflict their ignorance on others (i.e. - no sex-ed equals major problems in relationships where sex is concerned). How many people out there have ended up in a situation where one partner knew more than the other? If in a married relationship - realizing after saving ones self for marriage that they are sexually incompatible with the other? For people in these situations the anguish can be horrible. I would be real curious to know how many "got it right" the first time out, whether married or not. Frankly, I would much rather find out before signing the dotted line than after. Some folks lives are governed by their emotions - and a lot of those people are more in tune with their senses. Being in a physical relationship that is unfulfilling is not only unfair to one's self, it isn't fair to the other person because a real connection cannot take place.
"Moi" -
I can't answer why we cover up, but clothing is just another device to hide one's self - and although in this case we are talking about covering up the physical being - its still a form of deceit (in a way) since we (people in general) dress in such a fashion as to look our best (religious requirements for apparel are not included) to others. I think it may have occured to cover up because as people migrated from Africa, it seemed to get kinda cold - so it would be prudent to cover up to protect the body from harm by the forces of nature.
Moi - as far as jobs in the arts, sports, etc -
you are right, there are, but I didn't seem to find a wealth of them during my college years. I wanted to teach vocal music to high school students. I had wanted to do so from around the 6th grade on. Unfortunately, the political state of affairs during the 80s was one where fine arts education in particular received no funding or support. I switched my major, dropped out of school for lack of funds, and never looked back. I would probably not be a home owner, and still have student loans left to pay if I had finished and actually was able to get a job in my chosen field. I learned job skills in school, but I also learned life skills (which translate well in the working world) at home, just like I did sex-ed. I know I am not perfect, but my lower middle class parents did a pretty good job overall, I think.
By the way, why does the word D-A-M-N get censored?


By moi on Friday, June 29, 2001 - 04:14 pm:

The subjects I listed don't cause controversy. Or rarely, that is.


By pampered on Friday, June 29, 2001 - 03:57 pm:

moi,

How about medicine or biology?


By moi on Friday, June 29, 2001 - 03:47 pm:

Pampered,
You don't think there are jobs in the line of art, history, music or sports?


By moi on Friday, June 29, 2001 - 03:44 pm:

I guess it doesn't pay to ask "pampered", since she doesn't promote religion, but to those others who want to be open about sex: Why did Adam & Eve bother covering up, and why do we, if it's such a "natural" thing that has no privacy or shame? Also, why do young kids have to be exposed to serious things at such young ages? What happened to the innocence of childhood?


By pampered on Friday, June 29, 2001 - 03:27 pm:

flaky,

I guess I just don't understand why some people object to educating children about how their bodies function. Want to get people all riled up? Say the word SEX. Amazing.


By flaky on Friday, June 29, 2001 - 03:16 pm:

Pampered,
You never cease to amaze me. Just because some parents don't teach sex-ed at home, the schools should have to teach ALL children about it? What a crazy world we live in.


By pampered on Friday, June 29, 2001 - 03:03 pm:

moi,

I meant to say that knowledge is power.

You don't have to worry, though....I don't plan on being queen anytime soon ;-)


By pampered on Friday, June 29, 2001 - 02:57 pm:

moi,

I disagree that the purpose of education is to lead to job skills. If that were true, what would be the purpose of teaching history or art or music? Why bother with sports? I feel that the purpose of education is to educate our children into becoming well-rounded and productive citizens.

I understand where you're coming from. But I also believe that information is power.


By moi on Friday, June 29, 2001 - 02:36 pm:

I disagree. Schools should teach education that pertains to knowledge that leads to job skills. The personal things should be taught at home. I don't know of too many teachers that would cooperate in giving a fair inbiased view of all religions, and I doubt that parents and teachers could agree on what to expose their children to. It's OUR decision, not the school's.


By pampered on Friday, June 29, 2001 - 11:39 am:

Oh, one more thing....

The Daily Mining Gazette is conducting a not-so-scientific poll on Planned Parenthood's move to Houghton. You'll need to scroll down the page to find it. It appears that folks are able to vote more than once so the results could be somewhat skewed.

http://www.mininggazette.com/loclnews.html


By pampered on Friday, June 29, 2001 - 11:32 am:

If we lived in an ideal world, all parents would teach their children about the moral and social consequences of having sex and give them accurate information that would better prepare them for making wise choices. Unfortunately, we don't live in an ideal world. Didn't we just have a discussion about parents who do a less than stellar job of parenting? You know the ones who fail to discipline or instill any values into their children? So now we are to expect them to teach their children about responsible sexual behavior? Yeah, right!

I came from a good Christian family with conservative parents who didn't and still don't believe in sex education in the school. Actually, they didn't and don't believe in sex education, period. I graduated from high school in the sixties and NEVER had a "sex talk" with my parents. Neither did any of my four brothers. I heard a lot of "nice girls don't do that sort of thing" but I was never actually quite sure what "that sort of thing" was. Where did I get my misinformation? From my peers, of course. I think that I, and other kids in families such as mine, deserve better--especially in an age where lack of information can kill you.

If I were queen, there are two courses that would be taught in the schools that would be mandatory. One would be a course in religion. It wouldn't promote or debase any particular religion, but would be an overview of the major religions of the world and how they shape and influence the societies in their particular cultures. The other would be a course in sex education. It wouldn't be morality-based instruction, but it would concentrate on providing kids with accurate biological information as to what causes pregnancy, how to prevent it, and the communicable diseases that can result from unprotected sex. Parents could provide their own moral aspect of sexual education if they choose. Another thing, waiting until kids are teens to begin discussing sex is way too late. Responsible sexual education begins when children are very small by giving truthful and accurate information commensurate with the age of the child.

So, having said all that, I think I'll go have lunch……..


By Ms. V. - St. Paul, MN on Friday, June 29, 2001 - 09:32 am:

Sorry "atroll" but you missed the point -
Its not that I was proud - I truly felt sorry for my friends that they had no one better to ask about such important things as sex except one of their peers. That is why I took the responsiblity so seriously - but you must have missed that part of my post. As far as the complex emotional issues involved - you are so right - only time + experience really develops the maturity to handle that intense of a relationship. I don't advocate people having sex before they are ready - not at all, and I think its damaging to do so otherwise, however to do so uninformed seems to me also damaging, because of the psychological/emotional issues involved. We live in a society that blatantly flaunts sex in the faces of our youth - so why we as a society refuse to deal with it head-on just baffles me. Seems to me a type of double-standard exists, and its up to us (society) to do something about that.
To Black Trash -
You are self-employed, which has got to be difficult in and of itself. I don't know all the specifics of your situation, but the fact you have taken so many steps to get your license back indicates to me that you must have integrity if you are willing to drive 8+ hours to once again present the same information. I am sure in some ways you might feel like you are beating a dead horse so to go through all the details for yet another time must be daunting emotionally. Good luck, you are gonna need it. Government bureaucracy is a major drag, and they will put you through it all before its all over with. As others requested, keep us posted.


By Wade Truitt on Friday, June 29, 2001 - 07:38 am:

Blackie:
I should have realized that you would already have handled the political part. I truly hope the board will do the right thing and restore your license.

And yes, the double standard in this sort of thing is infuriating, and it's not only doctors who benefit from it (although they are notorious for getting away with stuff). It seems that the more serious the mistake is, the more likely it is that the person who makes it will escape judgment. Now there is a flap about all the "stock analysts" who do nothing more than hype stocks pushed by their companies, urging folks to "invest" their retirement money in sure-to-go-down-the-tubes startups. They've cost lots of people their life savings, but there is no "license" required at all. In fact I saw the former head of the stock exchange on TV saying that these people should be allowed to "police themselves." And I can think of lots of other examples of this also.

That this is way things are these days doesn't make your situation any easier, but anyway you are not alone in knowing that this is not right!


By Black Trash on Friday, June 29, 2001 - 06:19 am:

Wade,
I sent Rich Brown and Don Koivisto a detailed letter explaining my situation, a circumstance that I've been wading through for some time now.

Mr. Koivisto sent a reply back to me, responded within a few days of my letter to him. His words were encouraging.

I have yet to hear from Mr. Brown and I have no idea where he may stand on what is happening.

I suspect that when my name is called, I will rise from a court of many, all there to plead one variation or another of the same theme--the right to work for more than a hourly wage with the kind and gentle permission of the State.

I work with my hands. I made a mistake. I could have kept my license to work had I paid the customer everything he paid me to complete a job.
I did not want to do that. He did want anything less than a full refund; he had gotten refunds before.

In another situation, a doctor almost killed my wife on the operating table by accidently "nicking" something that shouldn't have been "nicked". Though she went through h-ll as a result, the doctor practised medicine until the day he died.

Currently, I am breaking the law by contracting without a license. I am not at liberty to contract with another citizen of the state for services that I can perform for a wage that I consider fair that the custtomer is willing to pay.

I can't tell you how much I look forward to travelling to Lansing, a day's trip minimum, to present myself, and nothing more--I have nothing more to add to the petition I have already sent them.

At least I won't miss the parades on the Fourth of July.


By Wade Truitt on Friday, June 29, 2001 - 12:05 am:

Blackie:
It sounds from your post like you are fighting some kind of injustice. I'm not sure what board you are dealing with, but Michigan has no reason to keep folks from earning an honest living. You sound like a competent person, so if this board just evaluates competency in some way, then I suspect things will break in your favor.

Please call the offices of both of our representatives in Lansing to ask for some support (whether or not you voted for them, or even agree with them). They generally won't try to influence a decision directly, but it's very likely that they will both ask the board to send them a report on the disposition of your case. That kind of request encourages at least a careful consideration of your arguments.

And please let us know in a couple of weeks how it went. We're pulling for you!


By Black Trailer Trash on Thursday, June 28, 2001 - 09:22 pm:

It's been twelve years, lacking but twelve days, since I began a business in another state. Two years later, I returned to the area where I call home.

In twelve days, I will have the opportunity to travel to Lansing (Okemos, in particular) to argue before a board for my right to work for a living for something more than an hourly wage.

In twelve days I will have the opportunity to ask for what should be a given, the right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. But here in the State of Michigan, I will go before the State, or a board of the State, to argue for that right to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness.

If I do not go there, I will be a criminal. I am now, at this time, acting in a criminal manner, going forth from my home to make a living for more than an hourly wage.

Let freedom ring, O! Let freedom ring!

Let us all stand and proclaim the fuits of liberty as we watch the parades in the coming week and let freedom ring! O! Let freedom ring!


By Chartreuse Refuse on Thursday, June 28, 2001 - 06:27 pm:

Black Trash:
I heard on the network news a few nights ago that International Paper had to lay off something like 6% of their work force.
I've also heard that Glen Tolksdorf has sold that big chunk of Keweenaw Point acreage he bought last fall from IP to an undisclosed buyer. Whether this is true and what it may mean if true remains an unknown to me however.


By Black Trash on Thursday, June 28, 2001 - 06:05 pm:

Not that I want to change the subject, but has anyone else heard about the pressure that LSLC is under from the biggies to sell land in dah area? All of the other corporate heads know about it. But my guess is that the average Joe in the Copper Country knows nothing about it.

Let's hear it for the new news media that is giving us so much.

I understand a deal is in the works, something "we'll" hear about when "they" are ready to tell us.

O! Please let is be so!

Issues, my arse.

This post will self-destruct before you read it.


By Humanist on Thursday, June 28, 2001 - 05:03 pm:

atroll,

Far from feeling pride about the situation, I was appalled that parents would put their own kids in the situation of feeling that they had to ask their classmates about these things. In primary school, I don't believe the kids' questions had to do with "psychological complexities". But I'm sure that it is disturbing to a child to find that his or her parents have lied instead of providing honest answers to honest questions.


By atroll on Thursday, June 28, 2001 - 04:06 pm:

I generally agree with the idea of open and honest conversation about sex, but the fact that you are all so proud of having kids teach sex ed to other kids at school is ludicrous. Of course everyone has to learn about sex at some point, but if you think you can explain the psychological complexities of that to a young child and then have them go to explain it to the other kids you are sadly mistaken. Let each parent choose the time and place to teach their kids about sensitive subjects.


By pampered on Thursday, June 28, 2001 - 03:30 pm:

And now a word from the Surgeon General........

http://www.salon.com/mwt/wire/2001/06/28/satcher_report/index.html


By Humanist on Thursday, June 28, 2001 - 02:58 pm:

Ms. V., Good point about adults talking honestly with each other too. As scary as that can be sometimes, the shared confidences build up a wonderful intimacy full of unexpected pleasures. And if knowing what we are really like would actually repel the partner, then by concealing the truth we're keeping a relationship alive by dishonest means.


By Ms. V. - St. Paul, MN on Thursday, June 28, 2001 - 01:04 pm:

More "hot air" from the plains:
Humanist you are so right. If parents want to stick their head in the sand and pretend these issues don't exist, then they reap what they sow. I was one of those kids in school (albeit not until Junior High)whose friends would ask them the questions they wouldn't ask their parents. I took the responsibility very seriously, and if I didn't know an answer, I would find out the truth from a reliable source and then let them know the answer. It is truly my belief that Americans really have a long way to go with dealing with sexuality issues beyond it being porn vs. chastity. It may not irradicate all that is wrong in the world, but reality and truth based sex-ed would be a good place to start, and that should start at home. Like I've told my nephews, if you can't talk about it, you shouldn't be doing it. The same goes for parents: if you can't talk about sex with your partner, you won't be able to with your children so it might be a good idea to just not have any! Folks need to be dwelling in the realm of reality.


By Humanist on Thursday, June 28, 2001 - 12:37 pm:

This explicit language situation reminded me of a couple of my learning experiences as a parent. We didn't use baby talk with our kids, so they grew up using the adult words (not the slang words) for body parts, excretions, and activities. We learned that some parents were offended by our kids' use of those words instead of baby-talk, because they didn't want their kids to know that adult words even existed for such things.

We also answered our kids' questions about sex as honestly and straight-forwardly as we could, and made sure that there was material available for them to read when they wanted to do so. One day we were called in to a primary school conference because our eldest had (a) challenged the stork story, or some such, that another set of parents had taught their child, and (b) had then become the class "authority" on sexual matters when kids had questions. Directly thereafter, we told our kids that some people didn't believe in honesty with children in sexual matters, and that they needed to decline to answer any more such questions. But I really wonder that parents don't worry about undermining their own credibility when they tell their kids things that their kids know, or will find out, are wrong.


By D. Berry on Thursday, June 28, 2001 - 09:43 am:

I understand now. We don't need to give the kids "flirting lessons" from the eminent jurist.


By pampered on Thursday, June 28, 2001 - 07:58 am:

D. Berry and readers,

Sorry, but I responded to Forrest Sawyer's post by saying I wondered if Clarence Thomas was still "flirting" with the girls at the office. Of course, today the "girls" are Sandra Day O'Conner and Ruth Bader Ginsburg. I then made a reference to Clarence Thomas's episode with the Coke can. Isn't it interesting that that "episode" didn't keep the man off the Supreme Court, but was deemed too offensive for Keweenaw Issues?

My apologies to the editor for being too specific as to what kind of hair Thomas put on the Coke can.


By Jim--Mudcat--Grant on Thursday, June 28, 2001 - 01:47 am:

TOM JOAD
Woody Guthrie

Tom Joad got out of the old McAlester Pen
There he got his parole
After four long years on a man killing charge
Tom Joad come a walking down the road, poor boy
Tom Joad come a walking down the road

Tom Joad he met a truck driving man
There he caught him a ride He said: "I just got loose from
McAlester's Pen On a charge called Homicide, A charge called
Homicide."

That truck rolled away in a cloud of dust,
Tommy turned his face toward home,
He met Preacher Casey and they had a little drink,
But they found that his family they was gone,
He found that his family they was gone.
He found his mother's old fashion shoe
Found his daddy's hat.
And he found little Muley and Muley said:
"They've been tractored out by the cats,
They've been tractored out by the cats."

Tom Joad walked down to the neighbors farm
Found his family.
They took Preacher Casey and loaded in a car
And his mother said "We got to git away."
His mother said 'We got to get away."

Now the twelve of the Joads made a mighty heavy load
But Grandpa Joad did cry.
He picked up a handful of land in his hand
Said: "I'm stayin' with the farm till I die.
Yes, I'm stayin' with my farm till I die."

They fed him short ribs and coffee and soothing syrup
And Grandpa Joad did die.
They buried Grandpa Joad by the side of the road,
Buried Grandma on the California side,
They buried Grandma on the California side.

They stood on a Mountain and they looked to the West And it
looked like the promised land. That bright green valley with a
river running through, There was work for every single hand, they
thought, There was work for every single hand.
The Joads rolled away to Jungle Camp, There they cooked a stew.
And the hungry little kids of the Jungle Camp Said: "We'd like to
have some too." Said: "We'd like to have some too."

Now a Deputy Sheriff fired loose at a man
Shot a woman in the back.
Before he could take his aim again
Preacher Casey dropped him in his track.
Preacher Casey dropped him in his track.

They handcuffed Casey and they took him to Jail
And then he got away.
And he met Tom Joad on the old river bridge,
And these few words he did say, poor boy,
These few words he did say.

"I preached for the Lord a mighty long time
Preached about the rich and the poor.
Us workin' folks got to all get together,
Cause we ain't got a chance anymore.
We ain't got a chance anymore."

The Deputies come and Tom and Casey run
To the bridge where the water run down.
But the vigilante they hit Casey with a club,
They laid Preacher Casey on the ground.
They laid Preacher Casey on the ground.

Tom Joad he grabbed that Deputy's club
Hit him over the head.
Tom Joad took flight in the dark rainy night
A Deputy and a Preacher lying dead, two men,
A Deputy and a Preacher lying dead.

Tom run back where his mother was asleep
He woke her up out of bed.
Then he kissed goodbye to the mother that he loved
Said what Preacher Casey said, Tom Joad,
He said what Preacher Casey said.

"Ever'body might be just one big soul
Well it looks that a way to me.
Everywhere that you look in the day or night
That's where I'm gonna be, Ma,
That's where I'm gonna be.

Wherever little children are hungry and cry
Wherever people ain't free.
Wherever men are fightin' for their rights
That's where I'm gonna be, Ma.
That's where I'm a gonna be.


Folksong Data Base



By St. Eustace on Thursday, June 28, 2001 - 12:39 am:


By D. Berry on Thursday, June 28, 2001 - 12:38 am:

What happened?


By Forrest Sawyer on Wednesday, June 27, 2001 - 07:01 pm:

Just because it isn't "politically correct" to enjoy pornography and to flirt with the girls at work doesn't mean that a man should be kept off the Supreme Court. Why shouldn't people who don't toe the "political correctness" line have representation on the Supreme Court? How can judges rule on issues of real life if they don't have some down and dirty experiences with real life themselves? The first President Bush said that Clarence Thomas was the best man in America for the Supreme Court of all the people who shared the President's judicial philosophy, and the Senate agreed with him. I'm sure that all of the President's other possible candidates for the position had even worse problems, or the President would not have chosen Clarence Thomas. So if he had chosen someone else, then there would have been even more complaints. Leave well enough alone.


By Humanist on Wednesday, June 27, 2001 - 10:22 am:

I notice that the right-wing propaganda machine has had a little breakdown: Clarence Thomas Book Author Says He Lied in His Attacks on Anita Hill, Truth, Sex, Lies and Videotape. I remember reading that book, and it was so obviously a political hatchet job that I couldn't imagine people falling for it, but lots of people did. On the other hand, I listen to Rush Limbaugh (so what!), and I hear lots of people falling for the stuff he says, too. I wonder what those people will say when Rush finally 'fesses up.


By Ms. V. - St. Paul, MN on Wednesday, June 27, 2001 - 09:23 am:

So you got it stuck to ya from an insurance carrier. There's a big surprise. I know many people will disagree, but if we are going to be taxed to oblivion anyway, at least we should have some health care provided. Apparently you run a small business - power to you, I sure don't have the biz acumen to pull it off. Don't know who you go through now, but I hope everyone is at least okay with it (you can never make everyone happy...). Since I work for yet a different government agency now, I realize I am fortunate - but I can guarantee you, I am not remotely overpaid.


By Trout Fishing in the Keweenaw is Great on Tuesday, June 26, 2001 - 06:32 pm:

To the Plain's daughter of an electrician,
Benefits. Gosh. What can I say. I asked my work comp carrier for a health insurance proposal a couple three years back...the guy was smiles and shoe-shines, black ties and good-mornings, and he tried to sell me a blue cross blue plague deal that wasn't even available in the UP. Go figure.

SIgned the guys up for it, waited to begin seeing the paperwork that said what it is I bought into and when that began to come in, I realized that what I bought into wasn't what was being sent to me. I told my insurance carrier that I didn't believe he was being honest with me. He told me that I could feel that way.

He is no longer my work comp carrier. •••••••.
So yeah, take your white collar and shove it up you •••.


Benefits, my •••.

Take you white collar and wipe the sweat from my brow.


Speed trap,
I got news for you. I work my ••• off every day of my life for whatever the rat race can relinquish, and provide. So no, I don't waiste my time with nothings to do, and I'm •••• sure to enjoy my weekends fishing.

Hey, is that Kohs dude still around. If I had a million dollars I could probably make something happen. Have to hand it to that guy, he does make some impressive models...maybe if I had a chance to take him fishing we two could hook up with a plan or something. But then I look back on my own meager history and ask, why.

Enjoy your weekends. You only have so many.


By Ms. V. - St. Paul, MN on Tuesday, June 26, 2001 - 04:49 pm:

Greetings blowing in hot wind from the plains: Seems to me that the whole "have" & "have-not" separation we have in this country came about because, in part, of the "There is no life after high school" mentality (either college-prep or "other"). I couldn't wait to get out of high school, and though I did go to college for 2 years (Northern, by the way)- I still didn't graduate. Turns out that in my case a college degree wouldn't have made a difference: I eventually (9 years after leaving college) got a good-paying job making around $40,000 a year. I loved the job, liked my co-workers. Too bad the administration at my city government job wanted to play fast and loose with civil service rules and deny a group of us shift preference (amongst other things). The job was very stressful (you try answering over 200 911 calls a night - and that's just 1 person's call load!) and it got to the point that I couldn't have a happy life and deal with dysfunction of monolithic proportions and stay sane. What did I do? Found a job making $15,000 less per year - which was the only downside to it. I have a better schedule, and above all, I have my life back. Money isn't everything - and yes its tight to pay the bills - but this myth we have in America of higher education being the panacea to all our ills is bull. Kinda like the mind-set that we OWE our high school graduate children a college education. I did it in the Reagan years on loans, scholarships and other financial aid (like Work/Study). Realizing that financial aid isn't what it used to be (and it wasn't squat in the 80s, either) I think youth today would be better served by learning from the time they can talk that if they want college, they have to study hard, sacrifice much, and start saving early. Otherwise, make sure that your children have basic life skills, such as making a monthly budget, balancing a checkbook, how to comparison shop, how to fix things, how to cook, clean and all the other things we do each and everyday by rote. Many kids today don't even have basic living skills - so how can we expect them to be productive members of society? It goes back to an earier discussion of parent responsibility. Teach everything you can, and when delinquency appears come down hard, fast, and often. I would love to have the opportunity to move, but it takes planning and the almighty $. Besides, its seems the state of employment most places is recession-bound again, I might as well stay put and do like pampered says (and I am not directly quoting) and work, work, and have self-discipline to keep my "eyes on the prize". I have already accomplished this by taking this new job. And its true, you do have to pay a price. In my case that translated to a $15,000 pay cut. I have no regrets. Hey - Ward Scott: I am an electicians daughter and can balance a checkbook - wanna hire me? I am worth $15/hr and then some. Also got all my past performance reviews to prove it. The questions then are: are you Union? Do you have a reasonable benefit package (specifically health/dental)?


By ak on Tuesday, June 26, 2001 - 01:45 pm:

It's sooo hot, saw robins in my yard using
hot pads to pull the worms outa' the ground!
Now that's hot!


By pampered on Tuesday, June 26, 2001 - 11:41 am:

SpeedTrap,

Seems I don't agree with you too often but I'm with you on this one. I still believe that we live in the land of golden opportunity and that a person can be just about anything they want to be. The catch is....they've got to be willing to sacrifice and work, work, work. It also takes discipline and motivation. If your life isn't what you'd like it to be, and unless you have a physical or mental disability, quit complaining and get out there and hustle.

People can make up all kinds of excuses (myself included) as to why they don't have this or that. And I'm not just talking about material things. But I truly believe if you want something bad enough--you can get it--but you have to be willing to pay the price.


By D. Berry on Tuesday, June 26, 2001 - 10:40 am:

Gosh it's hot.


By SpeedTrap on Tuesday, June 26, 2001 - 10:15 am:

Hi Ward Scott & Gosh It's Hot

I wish you would quit feeling sorry for yourselves, justifying being a "bum" because the "job" didn't come to your front door. I agree all kids aren't college material, but there are other jobs==and, if you can't find one here, get off your kiddy-car and leave. You have to have more confidence in yourselves, bury the attitude and enjoy life. Drinking and Drugs just magnify and create your problems. No one has it easy, not even the college grads, they get that good job and the pressure is on to keep it. Life takes courage and faith in God. To to the library and take responsibility. Make yourself and you Mom proud by accomplishing a good thing, even if it is only one good thing.

Why does everyone get so freaked out when you use the word "••••••"? I have to listen to the Lord's name taken in vain most everyday. No one seems to care. No going to jail over that profanity. Just a thought that bothers me a lot.


By Ward Scott on Monday, June 25, 2001 - 09:22 pm:

Gosh,
I know what you mean, man. H-ll, I graduated from a local Finnish ghetto high school in a class of 26. You can walk the hallway there and see my picture. And those of the classes from 1912, on. And though I'm not even 42 yet, five have died from my class, and I was too young to go to Viet fr-ggin Nam. Oh, we prepared every day of recess for that eventual day, that never came, and like Gene and Phinheas (one of those hard-to-spell Finn-E-SSs} we looked for a separate peace that never came our way. And like I said, five of my classmates (out of 26) have died in the less-than-twenty-five years since graduation, magna cum laude none and not one of us.

I think four of the five died because of the quick and the dead. They realized they were not among the quick, fast track, and take-no-name crowd. One walked out in front of a car and was run over and dragged for a quarter mile in Ripley on a cold winter night (long may you run, M-T, you would have made a fine man, had you had a chance.) Two others wrapped themselves around a tree. One fell through the cuts on his snowmobile (they fished his body out in the spring) and the other died of a bad heart.

But none of those who died were fostered in their high school youth with the idea of anything other than "college prep" and since they were not "college prep" and since nothing else was placed before them, they found life where it would be found.

Back in 1976, the voters of the area were asked to approve of a kind of Technical School, a kind of vocational, training kind of place where all of the area youth would have been sent. Of course, the area voters rejected that millage election and the "vocational training center" was never built.

Since then, unless you're college bound, you better keep your friggin skateboard off the city sidewalks, ya juvenile delinquent, (one of those rare, unsupported sports, unlike basketball or hockey).

Anyway, after leaving the ghetto, and returning, I see the same people who took "something else again," as you phrased it, still dipping a line in by the sunken dredge, living life, and not succeeding to anyone's standard, still wrapping themselves around trees, still driving their cars at high speeds on dirt roads during the black of night. And every time I place an ad for a trades-person, knowing I'd pay them at least $15 an hour after a probationary time period, I wonder why I can't find any "college prep" people in the area, why I usually find someone who had moved here from elsewhere.

On that, "gosh it's hot," you're sadly mistaken. One day you will have a true ghetto and the individuals who grew up here, who were doomed to fail because of the high school mindset, will be those that groups like Planned Parenthood will help out………..


By Gosh it's hot on Monday, June 25, 2001 - 08:14 pm:

Schools,
Gosh. What can you say. When I was going through school, there was "college prep" and "something else again." It was unsaid, but understood, that those on the "college prep" path were upward bound, mobile, bound to make it, while those on
"something else again" were going to swim against the salmom rush on their own strengths and wiles and on whatever they could muster against the game-of-life.

It was never told to us that though one may not take the "college prep" courses that one could enroll in a college when one was 25 or 30 and succeed.

Those not on the fast track to fame, wealth, and college prep life, were bound to live life in the Finnish ghetto of their youth, seasonal work, maybe, unemployment, lah de da.

There is nothing in this area to instill in area youth the idea that one can succeed without college.

someone just said their daughter is at Tech. Well, there are many who are not college bound, who are bound to stay in the wheel-of-fortune we call the Copper Country, and maybe if Mom or Dad or Uncle Jeff knows someone at Tech they can land a "good job" and go on.

So talk to me about discipline. Discipline has been around since the dinosaurs and look where it has gotten us. We are asking and telling our youth to begin earlier, or fail,and unless one was on the "collge prep" path, no one past high school, other than a caring parent, give a flying crap, so discipline away...that is all you have left since you have removed from life the one who means anything.


By moi on Monday, June 25, 2001 - 06:01 pm:

That's something that is important to point out to our kids- that sometimes the troublemaker kids are craving attention that they don't get at home. It doesn't excuse anything, but helps kids to understand a little better. As for the parents, there's not much hope for improvement in many cases. It'll always be part of school, I suspect (unfortunately).


By pampered on Monday, June 25, 2001 - 01:32 pm:

FYI,

What you say makes sense.

My daughter graduated from Houghton High School last year and though she wasn't happy with the school, she's was conscientious about her work and an honor student. That ethic has continued in her course work at Michigan Tech.

I don't know what can be done about the students who continually disrupt class and "refuse" to learn. But I never write anyone off--people can change--it takes some kids longer to "grow up" than others. Then, some never seem to get their lives together.

I just think there are too many kids out there who don't have a supportive and nurturing environment in which to grow up in. Everyone needs to feel loved and valued. As for those kids who always seem to find trouble....one has to wonder what their family lives are like. I feel sorry for them.


By FYI on Monday, June 25, 2001 - 12:24 pm:

Pampered,
I sure hope the Apostolic opposition proves to be wrong. I would be offended myself. I have my own beliefs regarding things but don't believe in forcing others to think the same. As someone said earlier, we wouldn't be using it anyway?!?
I think there are plenty of other issues to concentrate on regarding our children, as School Administrator has brought up. I have teachers express this concern time and time again. My own kids get frustrated in school because they have been taught to respect others and especially the teachers and adminstration, and they feel some days they don't learn anything because the teacher is spending the whole day disciplining. (not living in the u.p. right now, hope situation is not as drastic there)


By pampered on Monday, June 25, 2001 - 07:52 am:

FYI,

I got the information from a reliable source who is in the loop. I already knew that K. Snyder was opposed to the new clinic. If the information I received about the Apostolic oppostion proves to be wrong, and I hope it is, I will profusely apologize for bringing it up. Time will tell.


By jim on Monday, June 25, 2001 - 03:04 am:

When all else fails
We can whip the horses eyes
And make them sleep
And cry

By FYI on Monday, June 25, 2001 - 01:15 am:

Pampered,
Just wondering where you got your info. I'm an "Apostolic" and haven't heard a thing about anyone in my church organizing opposition to PP. None of the congregations nationwide have gotten involved in something like this. (the church I belong to) Maybe people on their own have, but not the church as a whole.


By Groglak the Invincible on Sunday, June 24, 2001 - 09:33 pm:

Someone awhile back brought up the Klamath Falls imbroglio between human and suckerfish that focused on the sometimes unintended legal consequences of the Endangered Species Act.
I thought they might find comfort in this AP news story from the Science Section of today's NY Times.

ps: Me understand what it means to be endangered species. Me used to be part of one till a Cro-Magnon immigration wiped our genetic eccentricities off the higher primate map.

June 24, 2001
An Endangered Act: Sacrifices to a Green Agenda
By DOUGLAS JEHL
The Associated Press

It started with the best of intentions: to protect all creatures great and small by requiring that when a plant or animal got close to the survival line, everything feasible would be done to prevent its extinction and promote its recovery in the wild.

So dictated the Endangered Species Act of 1973, perhaps the most noble-minded of the environmental laws of the 1970's — and perhaps the one that has turned out to be the most practically cumbersome and politically controversial.

Fights between human and environmental interests were always expected, and they have arrived with regularity, most recently in Oregon's Klamath Basin, where 1,400 farmers have been denied vital irrigation water to protect the bottomfeeding suckerfish.

But much of the trouble the act has prompted comes from lawsuits brought by environmentalists who have learned to use the Endangered Species Act as a weapon.

Cast in the name of plants and animals, these lawsuits tend to have humans very much in mind. In their fights against logging, shopping malls, housing tracts and the like, environmentalists have found that they can erect no better barrier than persuading the Fish and Wildlife Service that the land is home to an endangered species. And they enlarge that obstacle by arguing that its home stretches far and wide.

Some groups, including the Arizona-based Center for Biological Diversity, have come to specialize in using the courts and the Endangered Species Act to get the federal government to block timber projects and other development.

Initially, developers, farmers, timber companies and others were left on the defensive. But by now, most have learned how to take proactive action, usually by commissioning studies of their own to give their plans a seal of scientific approval and to intensify and complicate the courtroom struggles.

The wildlife service has been caught in the middle, along with 250 species awaiting consideration for protection.

The service has had to dedicate its $6.4 million budget for listing endangered species and its resources for helping them recover to carrying out court orders won by environmentalists. The orders force the service to engage immediately in the complex process of deciding how much land should be protected as critical habitat.

"For too long we've been spending precious resources on paying lawyers' bills, fighting in court — instead of protecting species, fighting to bring them back from the brink of extinction," the interior secretary, Gale A. Norton, said earlier this year.

Even Bruce Babbitt, the former interior secretary and a noted conservationist, has argued that the law has been exploited and needs repair, reflecting what has become a broad bipartisan consensus.

"Uncertainties undermine public confidence in one of our most important and successful environmental laws," he wrote on the Op-Ed page of The New York Times this year.

To try to cope with the logjam caused by litigation, Ms. Norton proposed that the service be permitted to ignore new lawsuits for a year, so that it could focus on identifying new species in peril. But there were immediate protests that citizens' suits have been one of the forces driving federal action on environmental issues. And last week, the House rejected the plan.

Mr. Babbitt suggested addressing the blockage by allowing the service to put off decisions about how much habitat should be set aside until further studies are completed, and giving priority to identifying new endangered species. But some environmentalists argue that decisions about habitat are essential to protect a species.


AS human populations spread and the list of endangered species grows, the inevitable clashes between man and beast (or plant) increasingly test a law that, by design, tends to give humans short shrift. Still, even among the most vehement critics, no one is calling for the act's outright repeal. Its necessity, and its successes, are too obvious.

There are 507 animals and 736 plants listed as endangered. The California condor, the bald eagle and the gray wolf almost certainly owe their continued existence to the act. And the brown pelican, the American alligator, the gray whale and the American peregrine falcon are among a handful of species deemed to have recovered sufficiently, thanks to the act, to be removed from the list that had warned of their potential doom.


By pampered on Sunday, June 24, 2001 - 07:27 pm:

Humanist,

Your post makes perfect sense to me.


By Humanist on Sunday, June 24, 2001 - 05:06 pm:

Will of the Wind,

Don't try to pull that nonsense. Of course I'm not saying that at all. Keith Snyder (and any other control freak) has every right to state his views...just as I have the right to point out obvious truths about the views that he expresses.

In fact, Keith Snyder and Planned Parenthood both have the right to state their views freely in this country. I presume that Rev. Snyder will continue to state his views even when Planned Parenthood gets settled here. People he convinces will not use Planned Parenthood's services. No doubt Rev. Snyder's suit against the Houghton Schools will also establish that the Nazarene Church and Planned Parenthood both have the right to use public school facilities to promote their views. Free speech is the American way.

If Planned Parenthood were to try to bar Rev. Snyder and his congregation from this area, I'd be just as opposed to that. Why shouldn't people be allowed to associate with Rev. Snyder and listen to what he has to say? Whether or not he is a "bad man" is something for each person to decide individually.

If Planned Parenthood were to try to get laws passed that would force people to use contraceptives or to have abortions, I'd certainly oppose that kind of control freak behavior also. Just as I oppose the control freaks on the other side of the issue.

So, as you are evidently a free speech advocate, let us agree that both Rev. Snyder and Planned Parenthood have a perfect right to express their views freely and to co-exist in our community.


By pampered on Sunday, June 24, 2001 - 05:01 pm:

Hey folks,

Planned Parenthood's tax status is 501c3 NOT 503C.
Sorry for the error!


By pampered on Sunday, June 24, 2001 - 04:23 pm:

Joe Camel,

Anyone with a little knowledge of html or a design program can create a web site. You can make any claim that you want, but that doesn't make it true. I can put a site out there claiming that God is dead. Don't believe everything you read, especially on the web. People simply need to separate the chaff from the wheat, so to speak.

I have been donating money to Planned Parenthood for years. They have IRS 503C status meaning that contributions are tax deductible. The U.S. government gives them millions of dollars to provide their services around the world. They are THE #1 family planning organization in the world. They are financially supported by many major companies from Ford Motor Company to AT&T to Microsoft. Is that legitimate enough for you?

I believe in what they stand for and the services they provide. They provide family planning services to men and women. This includes counselling and contraceptives and even abortion (a LEGAL medical procedure, I might add) in some of the clinics located in metropolitan areas. I don't believe that they will offer any services that are not already currently available through a local MD. They give GYN exams, HIV testing, breast exams, pregnancy testing and provide contraceptives. But they do charge on a sliding scale which will make their services more accessible to lower income people and college students.

Opposition to women using contraceptives is nothing new. A hundred years ago it was a federal crime to send literature about birth control through the U.S. mail. I'm not surprised that there are still people out there who feel that it's their duty to control womens' fertility.

It's a free country and anyone can think what they want. Judging from the rhetoric used by K. Snyder in yesterday's Mining Gazette, he's ready to play hardball. I'd say he's got a game.


By O! The Will of the Wind! on Sunday, June 24, 2001 - 02:49 pm:

Humanist,
You write somewhat adolescently, Trying to keep Planned Parenthood away is simply another way that "control freaks" (to use Nick's term) try to run other people's lives.

So you would be saying then, that there is no freedom of speech in this country, for, after all, what you are saying, humanist though you claim to be, is that anyone can have an opinion, except for anyone who has an opinion contrary to what you happen to believe at the time.


By Joe Camel wearing a thin mint on Sunday, June 24, 2001 - 02:46 pm:

pampered,
So you are saying that "these types of internet sites" are somehow all wrong simply because you disagree with them. What say you then about the couple issues I raised that I found I one of "those types of internet sites"...see previous post.

And are you, then, saying that simply because PP has "been around for a long time" that they are legitimate?

Are you saying that those who are opposed to PP have no footing to stand upon?

What do you really know about Planned Parenthood that you so adamantly voice your opinion that they can do as they please.

Why is our tax dollar funding them?

Legitimate questions and there are others. What would the answers be?


By Humanist on Sunday, June 24, 2001 - 11:44 am:

If Planned Parenthood comes here, the folks who disagree with that organization won't be making use of their services anyway. Only the people who want the services will make use of them. Trying to keep Planned Parenthood away is simply another way that "control freaks" (to use Nick's term) try to run other people's lives.


By pampered on Sunday, June 24, 2001 - 07:43 am:

Joe Camel,

PP doesn't "reach out to the poor" through the use of its web site. Relatively few people worldwide have computers, let alone internet connections--particularly the poor. Also, PP has been providing their services long before personal computers came on the scene.

I see these types of internet sites often. I don't find them credible--they make outlandish accusations and don't use reputable sources to back up their claims. Of course, if you and others want to use them as the foundation on which to base your opinions, then be my guest!


By Joe Camel was innocent on Sunday, June 24, 2001 - 06:19 am:

I have to confess that I know very little about Planned Parenthood. As I recall, one of their spokeman said they reach out to the poor. They do this with the use of a website, I guess.

The organization that pampered provided us with a link to questioned the ethics of this PP website. There was also a page there that questioned PP's use of a character called "Joe Sperm". Their argument against this cartoon character sounded reasonable, as did their argument against McDonald's use of Happy Meals to promote condom distribution.

At any rate, it seems there is enough information on that link pampered provided us with that anyone who is unsure about PP would want to ask themselves whether or not this is an organization they want in the area. Thank you, pampered.

The Gazette also had a link to PP. Does PP preach that condoms are effective protection against HIV? The other link claims that condoms fail 12% of the time and in reality are not 100% effective protection against HIV.


By pampered on Saturday, June 23, 2001 - 10:36 pm:

Check out this web site that was cited in the Gazette article about opposition to Planned Parenthood.

http://www.all.org/stopp/

There's sure to be something to delight, incite or titillate with topics such as these:

Schools should opt out of sex ed:
Abstinence works; why teach anything else?

Planned Parenthood ‘suckers’ kids:
Condom lollipop leads youth away from chastity.

No reason is good enough for abortion:
Including rape and incest.

What’s wrong with six billion people?
World population is no cause for alarm.

STOPP tells students—plan for larger families!
The world faces a population shortage.

Gates’ IPPF Christmas ‘blood money’:
$8.8 million will help eliminate African children.

Hey, even Bill and Melinda Gates made the list! We all know how EVIL they are!

I wonder what this organization's agenda is? Hmmm.


By pampered on Saturday, June 23, 2001 - 08:10 pm:

FYI,

Yes, they are trying to get a petition together. The Gazette article didn't mention them. Give it a little time--the battle is just beginning. Also, the online DMG article is incomplete. Read the paper for the full content.


By FYI on Saturday, June 23, 2001 - 05:55 pm:

Pampered,
Just an FYI. Isn't the Apostolics against the PP. Read the Gazette online.


By Judas Priest on Saturday, June 23, 2001 - 03:07 pm:

Lappi, your prize is a gross of prophylactics from the planned parenthood center soon to open.


By Wee Willie Wonka--Local ELF Spokesperson on Saturday, June 23, 2001 - 12:44 pm:

Thanks for that arson link, Humanist.
Hmmm...a deeply religious one-time spokesman for Arizona's Department of Education driven by inner demons who had dreams about setting houses on fire while posing as a radical environmentalist?
I'm no Freudian, but it makes you wonder just what "house" this guy really wanted to burn down.


By lappi on Saturday, June 23, 2001 - 11:46 am:

It was a "guess" on my part. Since i have an
interest in Finnish history and culture it was
not too hard to figure out, given the gist of the
conversation as of late.
What do i win? Please don't tell me is is
Lutefisk!
Lappi


By D. Berry on Saturday, June 23, 2001 - 09:49 am:

Wow! Lappi, how'd you know that? Congratulations!


By Humanist on Saturday, June 23, 2001 - 09:06 am:

Here's an interesting story today about the Phoenix (Arizona) burnings that were first blamed on eco-terrorists: Religious nut set "eco-terrorism" fires to fool police.


By Judas Priest on Friday, June 22, 2001 - 09:55 pm:

Lappi U guessed it correctly.


By D. Berry on Friday, June 22, 2001 - 06:56 pm:

Judas Priest, How long are you going to keep us dangling before you tell us the answer? I give up already!


By flaky on Friday, June 22, 2001 - 01:02 pm:

Lemon Twist, It's too nice a day to sit in here and respond, so I'll keep it short. I agree. Sounds like everyone is doing a good job of being respectful here.


By Wormwood on Friday, June 22, 2001 - 12:12 pm:

Student Aspirant,
You are mistaken. Screwtape never mentioned any Puritans by name in his letters to a lesser tempter. But the use that the big ugly man down below has made of Puritan has been followed by a like use of words like Apostolic and the like.

Our side is winning. The marjority of the posters here confirm this.

Professor Wormwood, PHd emit notorious


By Student Aspirant on Friday, June 22, 2001 - 12:03 pm:

Judas,
Cotton Mathers. Screwtape alluded to this in one of his letters to one of the lesser devils.


By Lappi on Friday, June 22, 2001 - 11:22 am:

Judas,
Was it Laestadius, founder of the Finnish
Apostolic Lutheran church?


By School Administrator on Friday, June 22, 2001 - 10:00 am:

Lemon Twist,

Although there are always exceptions, of course, I'd say that tends to be true, particularly at the younger ages. You are right to talk with teachers you know personally to find out what is really happening in the schools.


By pampered on Friday, June 22, 2001 - 09:40 am:

moi,

You're absolutely right about there being many different Apostolic churches. I can't imagine any of MY neighbors being involved in such a petition. Then again, I don't know them THAT well and I have NO idea what goes on in their churches. I'm somehow of the opinion that they pretty much "mind their own business" and keep to themselves.


By moi on Friday, June 22, 2001 - 09:28 am:

As far as school behavior goes, I've heard the same comments from teachers, and the honor graduate list confirms this. As for a family with 23 kids, I have a reliable source that says there are 22, and a large portion are college grads. Also, when pointing out that the "Apostolic Church" is doing this petition, remember that there are many different Apostolic churches, many having no connection to the others.


By pampered on Friday, June 22, 2001 - 08:23 am:

Lemon Twist,

Several of my neighbors are Apostolic Lutherans. They are friendly, keep their property tidy, and offer their help if they think I can use it. I know of a family with twenty-three children and to the best of my knowledge, none have been in trouble with the law and at least a couple of them are Tech grads.

I personally don't care what religion, if any, a person believes in. I also don't feel that the number of children a couple has, or does not have, is any of my business. The decision to use or to not use contraceptives is best left to individual women.

I would, however, be very disappointed and disgusted if the Apostolic Church petitions to keep Planned Parenthood out of Houghton.

The bottom line is, if Apostolics or anyone else, choose not to use the PP clinic, that's their perogative. But they have NO business trying to keep a legitimate business from opening because of their religious beliefs. Time will tell, if there is a market base for PP's services they will stay in business and prosper, if not, they'll close their doors like other failed businesses have.


By Lemon Twist on Friday, June 22, 2001 - 06:34 am:

Okay, so I asked around and in the interest of combining issues, after an unofficial poll, one teacher offered an unsolicited opinion, the other teacher confirmed the first opinion, that the children who are raised in the Apostolic Lutheran church are quite likely the most well-behaved, needing the least amount of discipline, and are some of the most likely to cry at the return of a test with score of "B-" on it.

So what kind of family do the Apostolics have that their families, at least, seem not to be among the families talked about earlier?

School Administrator? Do you believe the above to be true? FLaky? Moi? Pampered?


By D. Berry on Friday, June 22, 2001 - 03:38 am:

Judas Priest, Was it Brigham Young?


By D. Berry on Friday, June 22, 2001 - 03:31 am:

Julian the Apostate, If we could only get those contestants to eat tent caterpillars, we'd be in business.


By Jack-in-the-Green on Friday, June 22, 2001 - 02:26 am:

With red-orange Mars on the southern horizon bigtime, here came and went an eclipsed South African Sun on the First Day of Summer 2001!
Is it just me or does that send spooky New Millennial thrills up your bent and mishapen vertebral chakras too?
(Ouch! Hey...quit hogging the blanket, dear!)

eclipse2.jpg

By always crazy on Friday, June 22, 2001 - 12:01 am:

Judas,
was it Hitler?


By Julian the Apostate on Thursday, June 21, 2001 - 10:41 pm:

Speaking of garish junkyards, here's a great column on the current state of network television.
I don't always agree with George Will, but this time he's really hit the nail on the cultural head.
Can the Roman Circus be far behind?

TV for Voyeurs

By flaky on Thursday, June 21, 2001 - 10:27 pm:

Pampered,
I wasn't "shaming" you personally. I was talking about those who are prejudice against certain religions. Maybe your comment about them wanting 23 kids got to me. I know many of them, and NONE of them have 23 kids. Maybe we should just change the subject--how do the caterpillars look? Are they about gone? What do you folks think?


By james studebaker (Ahmeekguy) on Thursday, June 21, 2001 - 10:26 pm:

Thought,
Let's advertise SC as a historical site and charge tourist to tour the junk yard. There could be a guide that would point out vintage cars and old mining equipment. Afterwards people could sit in some of the crafted furniture and enjoy a pasty and a pepsi while viewing clam operating demonstrations. Hey, it could catch on....


By james studebaker (Ahmeekguy) on Thursday, June 21, 2001 - 10:14 pm:

Judas....was it Jesse Jackson?


By Red Jacket on Thursday, June 21, 2001 - 10:06 pm:

Judas, It was Ken Snyder.


By Seven Hills on Thursday, June 21, 2001 - 10:04 pm:

Judas Priest,

Was it Robert Kennedy?


By Claimjumper on Thursday, June 21, 2001 - 10:02 pm:

Judas,
Was it Strom Thurmond?


By D. Berry on Thursday, June 21, 2001 - 10:00 pm:

Judas, Was it the pope?


By Enoch the Lesser on Thursday, June 21, 2001 - 09:59 pm:

Judas:
Was it the Klingons?


By Judas Priest on Thursday, June 21, 2001 - 09:25 pm:

Who was it that wrote? We shall use no contraceptive and propogate and inhabit the earth with those of our kind? Any takers?


By pampered on Thursday, June 21, 2001 - 08:34 pm:

flaky,

Shame on me for what? All I said was Apostolic--nothing more. The FACT is they do have lots of children--as many as they can. My question is why would they oppose Planned Parenthood from locating in Houghton? If they don't want to use contraception--fine--but perhaps others do. Their "petition," if successful, would deny me my rights to access contraceptive services. That's the problem!

BTW, the rumour is the Daily Mining Gazette.


By Bigbrotherbilly on Thursday, June 21, 2001 - 06:08 pm:

Pampered,

When's the last time one of them held a gun to your head and told you to have 23 kids?


By flaky, new-aged on Thursday, June 21, 2001 - 04:06 pm:

It's rumored???? Wasn't it rumored a while back that WalMart was coming to Copper Harbor? Get a grip! It's always been amusing to me that we have to accept everyone, and everything, but the minute Apostolics are mentioned, all bets are off. Some of the names that people give them are awful, and they are the last "slurs" that are allowed around here--in schools, in public places, and even parents hear their children using them, and don't teach them that it's wrong. Shame on you! I'm not one myself, but have always been appalled when I hear the treatment they receive, from the same people who preach against dicrimination--racial, sexual orientation, sex, religion, or otherwise. Think about it, everyone.


By moi on Thursday, June 21, 2001 - 03:39 pm:

So will we start a church-bashing discussion now? Remember, we also have freedom of religion in America. How does what they believe hurt you?


By pampered on Thursday, June 21, 2001 - 02:36 pm:

Looks as though we'll have some interesting topics to discuss shortly......

Planned Parenthood is moving into Houghton and it's rumored that the Apostolic Church is getting a petition together to try and keep them out. So much for free speech!

Don't they know that not all of us want to have twenty-three kids!


By brittas kin on Thursday, June 21, 2001 - 02:03 pm:

My late dear mother had an expression thats puts
it aptly...
Look to your own backyard.
You can use this philosophy when raising your children or tending your property.
Hyvää Juhanusta kaikille (it is Midsummers celebration in Finland) Have a good one.


By Nick Adams, Christchurch, NZ on Thursday, June 21, 2001 - 01:54 pm:

I'm in agreement with Moi on the increasing control-freak tendencies of modern western civilization. Real human freedom has been slowly but surely reeled in by everything from HMO's, the concentration of industry and mass media into fewer and fewer corporate hands and kneejerk governmental activism in the murky name of compassion and safety.
The adventure is dying.
The thrill is going...going...gone?
That's why I moved Down Under.
G'DAY KEWEENAW!
See you at the world premiere of The Lord of the Rings come next Christmas?


By flaky, new-aged on Thursday, June 21, 2001 - 11:30 am:

School Administrator,
I agree 100% that the teachers have been forced to put their efforts into everything else, but real education. I think it is in large part to parents who don't accept their responsibilities in raising their children. There are a lot of selfish parents out there, who want their time to themselves, and leave important lessons that should be taught at home, to the schools. Many parents don't discipline at all. Is it laziness? Can't be bothered? Want to be seen as "nice"? I think probably a little of everything, but pretty pathetic whatever their reasons.


By moi on Thursday, June 21, 2001 - 10:08 am:

Believe me, you're barking up the wrong tree about discipline here. My kids are expected to follow all rules at school, and after the school's discipline, they get priviledges stripped at home. Laws are needed, yes. But nosy too-much-time-on-their-hands people, no. S.Crafts was there first. Nobody has to build there and look at it. Sure, clean it up. BUT, there are plenty of places right in your neighborhood that are more immediately affecting you. Suggest it, or help them. Whining doesn't help, and more communistic rules we don't need. Instill neighborhood pride to keep things up, instead of forcefully taking away freedom. Remember, there are neighborhoods AROUND HERE where you can't have a clothesline in view because it doesn't LOOK nice. You can easily go way too far.


By moi on Thursday, June 21, 2001 - 09:58 am:

Feel Good Dancer,
You mean the guy in the tutu? That was my neighbor. His house needs painting.


By james studebaker (Ahmeekguy) on Thursday, June 21, 2001 - 09:57 am:

Who was it that took disipline out of the hands of parents and teachers and left our children with a sense of so-called adult freedom? What is more abusive, a quick interaction that stops behavior in its' tracks, or allowed behaviors that continue and cause problems in their adult lives.
Try to disipline some of these children today and they are quick to point out their rights and the consequences one would suffer if those rights are violated. If only they put that much effort to work in other areas!


By pampered on Thursday, June 21, 2001 - 08:52 am:

flaky,

I don't know what in my post leads you to think that moi "touched such a nerve" about the use of the word liberal. I'm a liberal (at least as defined in the dictionary) and proud of it. I was only referring to moi's post that said:

"Allright, clean up Julio's and S.Crafts. Now your land values go up, and people can have something new to crank about..higher taxes. Yes! The liberal's dream. Give it to the higher ups, who can tell us how to live so much better than we can tell ourselves."

Maybe I should have asked "what exactly is the liberal's dream?" And "give WHAT to the higher ups?" It's only that I found the post to be a little ambiguous--along with old age, my mind reading skills are slipping.

On the other hand, if land values go up if the property is cleaned up, then I would also think that land values go down if the property is an eyesore. So now who is reaching into your pocketbook?

It seems to me that the whole issue of "eyesore property" could be remedied by an ordinance. Of course it would have to be enforced.

Sorry for the rambling--I have way too much free time this morning.


By School Administrator on Thursday, June 21, 2001 - 05:48 am:

Flaky,

Teachers and administrators must spend more and more time in schools these days attending to discipline instead of educating the students. If you doubt this, talk to any experienced teacher you know.

The reason for this unpleasant reality is that many students' parents have not instilled in their children a sense of personal responsibility, a respect for law and authority, nor a respect for the property of others. When you talk with the parents of disruptive children, it is easy to see that the children reflect the attitudes taught them at home. Although some of those parents do give lip service to respect and proper behavior, children give much more weight to the parental actions and opinions which show the parents' actual disrespect for the law, disrespect for other people, and disrespect for property. In discussing matters with such parents, it does not take long before they forget themselves and begin to offer opinions such as those I've taken issue with in this forum. That's how I've come to understand that these parents are causing immense damage to our country by destroying the moral fiber that made us great.


By One of the Feel Good Dancers on Wednesday, June 20, 2001 - 09:17 pm:

Raiford,
I tell you what, I went for a ride and not that I was in any hurry, but one of the good foke of'n the Copper Country was doing his utmost to prevent the global-type warming what's been an issue of late. Dude was driving about 40 mph down the highway, 40 myopic in a 55 mph zone.
Well, I tell you what, but I was getting' impatien. Passed the dude. Just before a curve, no less.

Then I gets to thinking. Hey, dude, slow down. Globe warming up, and all, and I starts to driving 45. Well, that dude I passed must have forgot all about the globe warming up, man, cause here he come, right on my tail, impatien and all.

Took my time turning to the left to go out to the place where I trespass come fall. Deer were out and about, but the place looked like autumn, what with all the leaves gone and all. Don't know if there will be an acorn crop at all. So dat, my friend, would be big sad times, big sad tears. Now dere is an issue I culd relate to, and all. You know, after the big push, come August. One o' dem comin' attracshuns, no doubt. And all we gotta worry 'bout, man, is the chronicle of wise dudes.

P.S. Was tht moi I saw smokin'! on the corner of 6th and Oak!


By Mae West on Wednesday, June 20, 2001 - 08:17 pm:

Sparky, did that neighbor put his air conditioner in today? Curious minds want to know, and so do the rest of us.


By flaky, new-aged on Wednesday, June 20, 2001 - 07:36 pm:

Bigbrotherbilly, you're right on! Isn't it funny that Moi touched such a nerve with Pampered over the definition of "liberal"? Why does pampered get so defensive sounding about it? If you know that you disagree with someone about an issue, discuss it, but why worry about what someone is labeling you, especially when you know darn well that it describes you!
Another thing I am left wondering about is what School Administrator meant he/she mentioned that our schools are being brought down by what the flaky, new-aged are teaching their kids at home. What exactly do you mean by that, S.A.?


By School Administrator on Wednesday, June 20, 2001 - 07:31 pm:

It's heartening to read that I was wrong about some posters' attitudes toward personal responsibility, obeying the law, and respecting other folks' property. What I don't understand, then, is the defense of those in our area who don't live up to those standards. Just because people do some good things, like providing jobs, doesn't exempt them from the tules of normal human decency. To say that the rules apply except under certain circumstances is "situational ethics" at its worst. And, to me, situational ethics are part and parcel of the new age philosophies that I despise.

Bill Clinton pardoned the swindler Marc Rich because of all the "good things" Rich did, giving people jobs, giving huge sums to charity, and donating money to politicians. What is the difference, except in magnitude, of letting local people off the hook because they provide jobs and have personal relationships with local politicians? It seems to me that these are both symptoms of the same kind of new age thinking and are equally and totally wrong.


By Sparky Raiford on Wednesday, June 20, 2001 - 07:06 pm:

I've got a complaint and I'm going to air it. Just this morning my neighbor was contributing to global warming by burning some smelly debris in his wood stove. Someboy ought to tell him to open his damper or don't smother the flames, cause it was stinking up the neighborhood and like I said, contributing to global-type warming.

Then, I come home from a long hot (70 degrees plus) day of workin' in da Copper Country, and the sum-bit-h is struggling with an air-conditioner in his upstairs window. Did I offer to help? You crazy, man! He claimed he was going to sleep well tonight, global warming or not. I can hear it humming as I type, air-conditioner in the window. Probobably has it set full blast. Neighbors! His house needs paint!


By Bigbrotherbilly on Wednesday, June 20, 2001 - 06:02 pm:

I'm also for obeying the laws and the codes of any county. But I get sick and tired of the whiners bawling about the few that don't care or don't have the funds to comply. if you have a legitimate beef about something go to the authorities to remedy them. Whining fixes nothing.


By flaky, new-aged on Wednesday, June 20, 2001 - 05:41 pm:

School Administrator,
I couldn't argue with most of what you just posted, except for the idea that the beliefs of Moi and Bigbrotherbilly are what is tearing down the morals of our country. I'd never go that far! But I, too, believe in personal responsibility, obeying the law, and respecting other's property.
Maybe we all have to quit worrying about labeling everyone. Call us flaky-new-aged, call us anything, but I think it is the beliefs most of "us" hold that are keeping this country from COMPLETELY falling apart.


By Charles Lawton on Wednesday, June 20, 2001 - 03:49 pm:

Alexander, for a Harvard and Lawrence man, one would think you'd speak better English than that.


By School Administrator on Wednesday, June 20, 2001 - 01:07 am:

Flaky New-Ager,

Yes, these people who constantly push freedom without responsibility are tearing down the morals of this country, and I do believe that they've fallen hook, line, and sinker for the "me, me, me" philosophy of the flaky new-agers. I've been conservative all of my life, and conservatism has never meant personal irresponsibility, it has never meant flouting the law, and it has never meant tolerating those who destroy the property values of others.

If you believe that believing in personal responsibility, obeying the law, and respecting others' property makes me a liberal, then that is just another example of a very flaky belief.


By ALexander Agassiz on Tuesday, June 19, 2001 - 11:04 pm:

MOI
Been to plenty of dem der county kangaroo board meetings. Nothing against the small employers, whats the problem? Cant stand the truth? Liberal my •••!!! You have a perfect handle, big brother who thinks he knows all and what is best for everyone else. NOT!!!!!!.


By Flaky, New-aged on Tuesday, June 19, 2001 - 09:57 pm:

Hey pampered,
I tend to agree with bigbrotherbilly and moi quite often, and I have to say I don't know who you, ALexander Agassiz, and School Administrator are referring to either. For example, school administrator talking about this flaky new-age philosophy that moi and bigbrotherbilly have. FLAKY? NEW AGE? Wow, you guys are amusing. And, well yes, LIBERAL sounding.


By pampered on Tuesday, June 19, 2001 - 09:33 pm:

moi,

You lost me on that one.

If you can't attach a definition to the word liberal, isn't it meaningless to use it?

Then again, perhaps you've created your own definition, which would explain why you use it so freely, yet some of us are clueless as to whom you are actually referring to.


By Bigbrotherbilly on Tuesday, June 19, 2001 - 07:43 pm:

ALexander Ag***iz,

Sounds like all the whiners are whining up the wrong tree. If you had the spine to back up your yap you would attend some board meetings and speak your peace. If you can't do that much to help your crusade against the Little Guy employers then I guess you might as well stay on this page with your tail tucked between your legs.


By moi on Tuesday, June 19, 2001 - 05:58 pm:

Pampered,
Descriptions don't necessarily fit the subject that they apply to, when the subject has evolved over the years. JFK was nothing like the modern democrats, yet he was a democrat. When I say liberal, I mean the modern-day liberals. Forget the dictionary, it has nothing to do with it.


By pampered on Tuesday, June 19, 2001 - 03:42 pm:

moi,

You use the term liberal, well, rather liberally. You obviously have your own definition as to what you THINK it means. My guess is that you use it to describe anyone who doesn't think like you. You ought to look the word up in the dictionary--you might be surprised at its meaning.


By moi on Tuesday, June 19, 2001 - 03:08 pm:

Oh,no,the liberals aren't "me" people- they're pushing their ideals on us because they CARE. They only want to HELP. (But it would make things a lot easier if we'd donate just a few dollars from our paycheck.) If only the brainless business owners would listen, they could shut the U.P. down to nothing more than seed-munching treehugging low-income scenery. Those darned job-providers around here!


By there's no such thing as a free lunch on Tuesday, June 19, 2001 - 02:41 pm:

Here's more reading material, but this article focuses on acid rain and its effect on our forests......

http://www.northernexpress.com/


By D. Berry on Tuesday, June 19, 2001 - 02:15 pm:

School Administrator, in France we called it the "moi" generation.


By moi on Tuesday, June 19, 2001 - 09:08 am:

We can't smash all the old buildings down. We're supposed to re-use them so as to curb the "frightening" mass rural spread that was a past argument here. Loonies.


By Winston Smith on Tuesday, June 19, 2001 - 04:06 am:

Here's your fundamental question, K-folk!
Who's gonna decide the ultimate real politick fate of Keweenaw County?
A handful of guys on some commissary board with their pinkies on the county purse-string or vox populi?

IT'S UP TO YOU'SE!


By Forest Service Smoke-Jumper on Tuesday, June 19, 2001 - 01:45 am:

Hey, I've gotta reverse-engineer me one of those free-floating water-buckets!
It'd be really handy in the deepwoods U.P.!


By Former Toot on Tuesday, June 19, 2001 - 01:33 am:

Farewell Sweet Sampson Street Atelier!


By ALexander Agassiz on Monday, June 18, 2001 - 11:08 pm:

Yo, Big Brother.
Get real, SC, and the other ones are definitely eyesores. Keweenaw County zoning ordinance requires a fence and or berm around that junk, period. IT is right in there own zoning book. So why has it not been done? He has a poor rock pile right on his property to build a berm with? Also K County has a junk car ordinance, ride from Ahmeek Location to Copper City through •••• town and tell me why those people are allowed to continue to break the law. OR ahmeek Village? I know of people who have sold there homes there in the village, because of the irresponsible people and there junk, Take a look at all the junked logging trucks, skidders, slashers etc. and you tell me that it does not look like ••••. Not all people are like that, many take care of there property and have pride in the appearance of there homes. Ride by the junkyard on US forty one in Negaunee right past the MSP post. Cant see in, fence. Get the picture.
School Administrator. I agree with you wholeheartedly.


By School Administrator on Monday, June 18, 2001 - 10:43 pm:

BigBrotherBilly,
All of the eyesores are the products of the "freedom without responsibility" cult, including those left by long defunct businesses. We've always had some of it, but it's getting worse and worse. Didn't anyone ever mention to you that someone else's misdeeds are no excuse?


By Bigbrotherbilly on Monday, June 18, 2001 - 10:20 pm:

School Administrator,

Please Oh-Wise-One tell me what we are to do about the mining relics that are scattered all about that don't look any different than Superior Crafts or Julio's. They all look like eyesores to me.


By School Administrator on Monday, June 18, 2001 - 10:02 pm:

Some of those posting here about the local eyesores, especially Moi and BigBrotherBilly, show the flaky new-age philosophies that infected the "me" generation. Those "gimme" philosophies are all about freedom without responsibility. Your schools are being brought down by the children who've learned those lessons all too well at home. Here are adults who constantly demand more "freedom", but when anyone brings up the concept of "responsibility" they start yelling "communist!" Their kids do the same thing on the playgrounds.

It wouldn't be appropriate for me to comment on specific properties, but the truth of the matter is simple. People who lack the responsibility to keep their homes and businesses neat do hurt the property values of their neighbors and the surrounding community. In doing so, they have taken something of value from others, and are no better than thieves. It's too bad when people have to turn to laws to force their neighbors to be responsible. If we'd get back to "freedom with responsibility" instead of going down the flaky new-age road of Moi and BigBrotherBilly, then we wouldn't have all the problems we see these days.


By Humanist on Monday, June 18, 2001 - 09:39 pm:

Greenhouse Willie,

Thanks for the reference to the global warming article. It contains a lot of interesting background and history on the scientific effort directed toward understanding the serious dimensions of the global warming problem.


Quote:

The scientific method has worked spectacularly. In ten years it has taken a physics and chemistry problem of enormous dimensions, used every tool of the modern scientist, especially the supercomputer, and reduced it to a set of maxims agreed upon by virtually everyone working in the field.


There is no rational doubt that we face a very serious problem. The political dilemma is what to do about it when the necessary actions draw unrelenting opposition from those who make huge profits from damaging our world.

The article points out over and over that Clinton and Gore, who did understand the problem, still did almost nothing to address it during the past eight years. Now the current administration, bought and paid for by the polluters, brazenly announces its intention to increase the damage as much as possible during their watch.

We can only hope that President Bush now understands some of the material in his recent briefing on global warming. If he really has the moral fiber many people think he has, he will address this problem despite any short-term political damage he may suffer. I'm sure that millions of us in America and the rest of the world will be looking at this to determine how much personal character he really has.

By Greenhouse Willie on Monday, June 18, 2001 - 07:57 pm:

Here, for the Humanist, Crazy and others interested in this subject, is one of the best overall articles I've found on the political battle over Global Warming. If increasing overall temps do to Europe(via an alteration in the upper Atlantic gulfstream) what some computer models say it will, it's no wonder they're angry about the Bush administration approach. The relatively isolated North American continent, on the other hand, may be affected the least by a warming planet.

July 5, 2001 New York Review of Books
Some Like It HOT
by BILL MCKIBBEN
The two documents listed here, each issued since the first of the year, offer competing blueprints for the twenty-first century. They are diametrically opposed in their implications; paying heed to one would mean ignoring the other. Since they concern the greatest threat to Earth’s physical stability in human history—the warming of our planet caused by the consumption of fossil fuels—the choice between them carries unusual significance. In fact, it would not be hyperbole to say they outline the first great choice of the new millennium, a choice that may well affect the planet throughout the thousand years to come.

I
Climate Change 2001: Third Assessment Report
by the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change


The Scientific Basis
by Working Group I

Impacts, Adaptation, and Vulnerability
by Working Group II

Mitigation
by Working Group III and (“Summaries for Policymakers” available on line at www.ipcc.ch)

II
National Energy Policy: Report of the National Energy Policy Development Group
by Dick Cheney, Colin L. Powell, Paul O’Neill, Gale Norton (Secretary of the Interior), Ann M. Veneman (Secretary of Agriculture), Donald L. Evans (Secretary of Commerce), Norman Y. Mineta (Secretary of Transportation), Spencer Abraham (Secretary of Energy), Joe M. Allbaugh (Director, Federal Emergency Management Agency), Christine ToddWhitman (Administrator, Environmental Protection Agency), Mitchell E. Daniels (Director, Office of Management and Budget), Lawrence B. Lindsey (Assistant to the President for Economic Policy), Andrew D. Lundquist (Executive Director), and others
$21.00 (paperback)
published by US Government Printing Office

Click here for rest of story

By Bigbrotherbilly on Monday, June 18, 2001 - 06:38 pm:

To all the whiners,

In case you haven't noticed the properties in question are all privately owned. Are you trying to make us a communist society? What about all our "Mining Heritage Buildings"? Should we just knock them all down and plant trees?


By Scott on Monday, June 18, 2001 - 02:44 pm:

To moi;
Huh?


By Ms. V. - St. Paul, MN on Monday, June 18, 2001 - 12:09 pm:

Jiminy!
Nice to hear from you. Yes, the rain can stop. Anytime. Like now.
To the rest of the forum - hello.
Finding the recent debate on the virtues/detriments of the junkyards up there in Copper Country rather interesting. I have to agree, that not only the junkyards up there are looking kinda rough. I wondered if it was a case of too short a summer or what, but some definite lawn/home care is in order. I am not talking about being "lawn beautiful", just pick up the trash, mow the lawn occassionally, and keep the screen door closed. Doesn't take much. I certainly do not have a beautiful house - but the lawn does get mowed (when it doesn't rain - which hasn't happened much since May), the trash gets picked up, and my screen doors are closed when not in operation. I live across from 10 lanes of Interstate 94/U.S. Hwy 61 - and at least the state is nice enough to have a grassy berm up that they mow a couple 3 times a year - so if I can have my place look minimally okay (and I live in the "low-rent" district") what is the excuse others have? I mean, we pay some of the highest taxes in the nation here - and still lack services - however a lot of us lower-income folks still somehow manage to make our places look at least tidy if not "Better Homes & Gardens" beautiful. Sounds like its time for those youth who are out of school for the summer to start doing some work - ya know, mowing the lawn, maybe some painting, and definitely pick up trash. You folks have a returnable law there, so it should be pretty easy to do.


By Headlamp on Monday, June 18, 2001 - 11:21 am:

Hey moi, are you sitting on your brains? Number 1, KC is so broke we need to sell all our good land to rich trolls to raise the tax base. Number 2, if the slum cleanups happen, the property tax caps will keep the taxes low even when the values around there go way up. Number 3, if someone who lived by the old slum still wants to live by a slum they can sell their now expensive place and buy a cheap place with the profit. And they'll have money left over for beer too. But at least keep the slums away from the lake and the main roads.


By moi on Monday, June 18, 2001 - 10:17 am:

Allright, clean up Julio's and S.Crafts. Now your land values go up, and people can have something new to crank about..higher taxes. Yes! The liberal's dream. Give it to the higher ups, who can tell us how to live so much better than we can tell ourselves.


By PAUL EAGLE RIVER on Monday, June 18, 2001 - 09:44 am:

Now we have some issues!!!!!! A.A., good thinking on your part. I have a small problem with my tax dollars being spent to save frontage on Rivers & Superior when it should be everyones in Michigan.
Most people will agree the Keweenaw is one of the top five spots to see in Michigan. So with all the tax money collected from the gas to get here why not spend those dollars to keep some of this beauty instead of taking the local tax dollars???
I know the board is trying to do its best but I think the tax dollars and profits from the mountain lodge should be put into needed infrastructure throughout the Keweenaw. I would be more in favor of spending our money on what we have and maintain a more positive view on keeping our waters clean. Natural lagoons ??????


By Headlamp on Monday, June 18, 2001 - 08:02 am:

OK the messes at Patrick's and Julio's and some homes look bad but do they really hurt anything? I think they do, they make their whole areas look like slums and that hurts the value of all property around them. And Julio probably messes up the water, to say nothing about the piles of crap that HC keeps at Ripley. HC is a total mess and you HC people should clean yourselves up before giving us advice about KC.


By always crazy on Sunday, June 17, 2001 - 11:03 pm:

hey Keweenaw, 2 comments,
Ski Hill first: One of the means of getting a grant is to employ a certain amount of people at a reasonable wage, right. I would like to know exactly how many Keweenaw residents were employed by Mr. Glieberman and if most got anything more than a free ski pass,and that is, if they were from the Keweenaw! I'm sure there has to be a way to find this out cause I know Lonnie wont tell us.
Global warming: For many years I've been saying that we keep pumping oil and gas from the earth, miles down, we have to be removing some of the thermal barrier from the surface. The core of the earth is very hot right? Now I have finnally seen some reports to that effect on the news. Now they want to drill under the great lakes, what will that do to water tempertures and the quality of not only the water but the fish? Geeeeez I dont like to think that superior could be producing more fat fish as the temps go up.


By moi on Sunday, June 17, 2001 - 09:51 pm:

A business owner should have enough pride and advertising sense to keep his appearance neat. However, nobody needs whiners to tell them how to look. Ever notice that these complaining fix-the-world types rarely smile? Too uptight about everyone else's lives, as though their own is already as good as it will ever get.


By Roger Somero on Sunday, June 17, 2001 - 08:06 pm:

I'm glad someone else finally noticed and commented on the view from the Ramada Inn. When can something be done about this travesty?


By Scott on Sunday, June 17, 2001 - 07:29 pm:

To give me a break...If you feel the gate at 41 lumber is causing a safety problem by blocking the "clear vision" area onto Lake Linden Avenue (M 26), just make a call to MDOT offices in Ishpeming. I'm sure they will investigate to see if it is a safety problem. If it is found to be, they most likely will require the business to take some form of corrective action.
As for Mr. Patricks superior crafts south of Mohawk, my vote would be to have him put a fence around his business, Julio's in Ripley also. Seems to me, if I remember right, most townships in the area do not allow junk cars to be stored in your yard, let alone right out in the open for all passing by to see. Although I have seen some yards that appear worse than either of the aforementioned business'.


By Boston Jack Barleycorn on Sunday, June 17, 2001 - 01:12 pm:

T'is one goes out, a day late and a dollar poorer, to Jimmy Joyce holding court up t'ere at ta Cliffview:

Behold the mansion reared by dedal Jack
See the malt stored in many a refluent sack
In the proud cirque of JackJohn's bivouac


And 'ey, y'ouse Goot Ol' Boys, if your gonna run a road to the mout' of da Gratchet dere, upgrade t'at one along the sout' bank and leave da nort'side alone. T'ere's already a parkin' lot and trashbarrel at ta end of ta sout'road and ta swimmin's just cheery!

By Amused and Amazed on Sunday, June 17, 2001 - 10:47 am:

Big Brother Billy:
OH yes, I am sure many a guest at the Ramada in Houghton sit for hours in sheer joy over the scenic view they have from the beautiful dining room windows. Reminds me of putting a diamond necklace on a pig.
As for K county, it is so amazing that they have been able to generate all that money in one year. I was in attendance at public hearings last year when those officials whined to the DEQ about how broke they are. Also the whining they did at the public hearings for the ski hill on how broke they were. I dont think even David Copperfield could equal the magic that the K County board has been able to do.
Now how much is it gonna cost to push that road to the mouth of gratiot? Where does the money come from? Would it not be better if the Road Commission continued upgrading the road between Betsy and Lac La belle instead of spending money on the road to gratiot river?


By Headlamp on Sunday, June 17, 2001 - 09:03 am:

Bigbrotherbilly,
Thats why you live in HC. That stuff doesnt bother you. In KC we care. Or most of us do.


By Bigbrotherbilly on Saturday, June 16, 2001 - 11:51 pm:

GetsSickEveryTimeHeWHINESInMohawk,

Some people just need something to b--ch about I guess. We have the same problem in Houghton County and it's called Julio's. But you don't hear us whining about it "every time we drive by,sob". And they're right on the lake!


By Give me a break on Saturday, June 16, 2001 - 05:02 pm:

When I first heard people complaining about the disposal site south of Mohawk last year, I made a point of looking what was there when I passed. I passed by again, today, and it's my opinion that the piles have diminished.

A gate is forever.

I'm reminded of the gate by the 41 Lumber store in Laurium. Pull out of their parking lot when you find the time, pull out to head south towad Lake Linden. You can't see traffic coming at you until the nose of your vehicle is sticking out into the traffic.

Look the other way. I've said it before: Better there than in every ditch and gulley in the C.C.

(shake off, and zip up, back away, ashamed of your own urine, or in this case, your old reefers, five-lug wheels, and wrought-iron railings.)

And where does it end? The length of the grass (or weeds) in one's yard?


By Tom Cat on Saturday, June 16, 2001 - 08:50 am:

Lets face it Patricks junk yard is a reflection on everyone in the Keweenaw.Asking Patrick to put up a fence is not a outrgeous request.He does a service for the community that needs to be done. We all have junk that we have to get rid of. I would think a fence would help his business.Image is everything. It's true, no other community
would put up with it.


By Elmer on Friday, June 15, 2001 - 11:35 pm:

MOI:
Are you insinutating I should be afraid of Mr. Pat$$$K. For what reasons? The county is more commited to passing and enforcing a no barking dog ordinance after ten then they are their own zoning laws. Read above what I get sick everytime I drive to Mohawk. Yeah a profitable business could be run there even with a berm and fence up. But the post is correct this is the |Keweenaw, ruled by the good ole boys. Funny the county was soooooooo brooooookkee a year ago when they did the under the table deals with breakwinds. Well just goes to show you the neighbors who wave to ya are the same neighbors willing to sell out for a few dollars more. Sell the lodge? Are you kidding me, too many people that have milked the county would be out of a country club and their lazy relatives out of a job. Charlie why not pose a web question to the people of the keweenaw, or for the matter, maybe the whining gazette could do one asking the people about the disgraceful eyesore in Mohawk. I know that a few commissioners not so many years ago started to raise some issues with it and were told by the good ole boys to keep their mouths shut.Maybe the real reasons is in Keweenaw Family takes care of family. Look at the lodge and the courthouse? Keweenaw is run by a few to benefit a few, and if you aint one of them forget it.


By One more time, with feeling on Friday, June 15, 2001 - 09:52 pm:

I thought I posted this before, but it either one, didn't go through, or two, was censored by the censor.

The Gazette had an editorial in Thursday's paper by Kathleen Parker. I posted a variation on the editorial:
CAN anybody say "••••••"? Oh, let's. For "••••••" is the simple answer to so many questions these days, such as: Why are children "freaking"?

…. It's not specifically about skin color; it's about breeding and manners and civility. Today, "••••••" knows no ethnic boundaries.


The editorial actually had the words "white trash" where you read "••••••" above.
I thought it was interesting that if the post made it here, and I believe it did, that it was censored by the censor. Curious, isn't it, that "white trash" is the only permissible racial slur allowed in public? Censor?


By Get'sSickEveryTimeHeDrivesToMohawk on Friday, June 15, 2001 - 04:56 pm:

I have to weigh in my 2 cents worth here about the superior crafts discussion. It's been one of my peeves for several years now. I agree with elmer/emf. It's a mess. Just love the keweenaw folk, b**ch about septic systems, but if it's Mr $$Patrick$$, a local, they pay no attention. Maybee a call to the DEQ is in order. Contamination exists at the superior crafts site, and it ain't left over from the mines, it's the current owners.
Come on Keweenaw people, isn't it time to start a little b**chin about the eyesore, or disgrace ???
A profitable business, one that employs people, can be run from that location, even after it's "cleaned up". Anywhere else in the state, a fence would HAVE to be erected.


By School Administrator on Friday, June 15, 2001 - 12:15 pm:

The Minor Few,

You wrote


Quote:

The Gazette had an article about the cheating that went on during the MEAP tests, that happened in two local school disticts [sic], Dollar Bay and South Range.


Your description of that article is not accurate. In fact, there is an investigation into why a few students gave similar answers to a couple of questions on the test. If you'll read today's Gazette, you'll find the reason why: some students remembered the material they were taught.

By Humanist on Friday, June 15, 2001 - 10:41 am:

It looks like we could take a lesson from China about reducing greenhouse gases: China cuts CO2 emissions during rapid economic growth. I guess their leaders had their global-warming seminar ten years ago. Or, maybe, they can even read for themselves...

Seems a shame that a bunch of decrepit old communists take better care of the earth than we do!


By SpeedTrap on Friday, June 15, 2001 - 09:58 am:

You could have knocked me over with a $l.00 bill Keweenaw County didn't have a few months ago when the Keweenaw County Board said they were broke and we need a "Ski-Hill" for tax purposes. Now they buy the Gratiot River Area! Mr. Agassiz nailed it when he said it was a "good ole boy" deal. When they shoved the "Ski-Hill" down our throat, the Board said we needed business because the County was broke. Now, they take the money from the very Economic Development Fund, which is supposed to attract and encourage business that would create a tax base, and buy the Gratiot Area. Also, they have a Rainy Day Fund of $284,000! Was this $ amount acquired in just a year, after they told the voters of Keweenaw County they were broke? Are you shocked or don't you care? What deception.. Do we ever see the figures ($) on the "Good Ole Boy's Club" (Keweenaw Mountain Lodge)? Do they make money or not, and, if not, I agree with Sandy Britton, it needs to be sold to a private enterprise. But then, the "good ole boys" woudn't have their private golf and country club. But, I digress..

I suppose then that the Gratiot River Acreage, bought and paid for by taxpayer money, that wasn't there a year ago, will be a boon to the Land Company and the Greedy. I suppose that is what they will call Economic Development! Mr. Griffith should have saved his money. People are too complacent..hasn't the airwaves educated all of us enough to know subversive dirty politics, practiced by our own people, people that live here, were raised here, but look at their neighbor only to expolit them. Wake up and kick the bums out of office. We should get rid of the "good ole days" that spawned the "good ole boys".


By moi on Friday, June 15, 2001 - 09:18 am:

EMF,
Lucky for us to have such intelligent ones as you. Why don't you stop by there and find out what they do. Then, tell them to put up a fence to block the ugliness. Oh, and let me know when you go, I wanna watch.


By A Quebecan Cryptozoologist Scrubbin’ Up in his Rub-a-DubDub Tub on Friday, June 15, 2001 - 03:57 am:

Zo’ now ve ‘ave conclusive pwoof zat zee albino sasquatch inhabits zee Upper Great Lakes, do we? Zees “sighting” vas captured a few miles sout’ of Rhinelander back in ’79, was it? I played for a local Geneva band called Sensuous Tiger then and our vain claim to fame remains on exhibit on zis video-cassette(see picture down below) in an unforgettable ski-bunny cabin dance scene that would 'ave left Lonnie slack-jawed.

My Spirit Runs Free can still be had for your very own at Playboy CD’s.commy sumpin’ or ‘nother OMIGOD if my wodka wuns out what Wussian spy will I turn to? I’ve 'eard dere’s a weputable wong-wunning asylum in Black River Falls ohhh t'at •••• Tommy Whommy “Who(in the fruck) Do You Think You Are” Thompson!
Where frickin' ever in da legibly written name of Albino J. Bigfoot did you get t'at funky notion to cancel my weakly welfare paycheck?
You want me to work?…
WORK?!
What in God’s Name of Community Service is zis t'ing called WORK?
(Hey...could somebody help me out here...yeah flap me vigourously wit’ another one of yer wet towels now dere would ya'...good criminy Christmas it's 'otter den a sow-na in 'ere now t'aint it?...)

The Capture of Bigfoot 1979

By A Humble Lock of Chequamegon Bay HAIR on Friday, June 15, 2001 - 01:55 am:

You are a strange species like no other
And you would be surprised at
How many others there are
Who are intelligent but savage

You are at your very best when
Things are at their very worst
And this is what I find
Beautiful about you


starman3.gif

By Peer Pablo Patriot on Friday, June 15, 2001 - 01:03 am:

flag.gif

By High Jumpin' Jiminy Jeff on Friday, June 15, 2001 - 12:50 am:

Now that El Nino and La Nina have been safely banished to some meteorological realm ethereal, I now know what “Global Warming” means for Minny Sota(a uniquely turbulent realm where no less than 3 global weather systems regularly intersect and trade shop-talk for our entertainment):
Yes, it means long snowy winters and endless spring flooding daily punctuated in the late afternoon and early evening with thunderstorms and tornadoes.
Ahhhh...the Good Ol' Days!
Oooh, it’s too hot and dry.
Please somebody STOP IT!
Hey there Ms. V? Havin' trouble gettin' replies? Hope you too are enjoyin' our record-makin' rainfalls!


By The minor few on Thursday, June 14, 2001 - 09:08 pm:

The Gazette had an article about the cheating that went on during the MEAP tests, that happened in two local school disticts, Dollar Bay and South Range.

It was interesting the words used by the students in their answers. Interesting, too, that a local person was involved, somehow, with the birth of the tests. I don't know, but with everyone being on a fist name basis here in God's Country, I have to wonder how it is that the students seemed to have been prepared for the specific questions.

I don't recall specifics to that degree while I was in school. But the times they have been a changin'.

On another note, I wonder how many tree-huggers will be applying for the position that is being retired?


By ALexander Agassiz on Thursday, June 14, 2001 - 07:04 pm:

A county road to the Mouth of Gratiot? Hmm sounds like we wont lose our false teeth anymore going fishing eh fellas? But wait, could there be other benefits? Why yes, you see the north coast from Sedar Bay to Seven mile point is un accessible except fo the two tracks from sedar bay allouez road to mouth of the Black Creek. Or the north side and south side access two trackers along the gratiot river. Hmm a road to The mouth of gratiot will open up the lakeshore from Mouth of Gratiot to the Mouth of the Black Creek. Hmm, you see no way the Big Bad Land Company can sell lakeshore lots in that area unless? Whola, a road to the mouth of gratiot is built giving them access to their lakeshore lots. Is that what all of those stakes are at the Mouth of Black Creek, looks like a road layed out along the lakeshore to me boys? Just a good ole boys, never meaning no harm, just wanna line our pockets with gold. IF it quacks like a duck, walks like a duck and flys like a duck it is a duck. The mouth of Gratiot Purchase is a BS, they rejected the donations from those people for good reason. If they accepted no road, no lakeshore lots, boo hoo. So they have it made, the county pays for the Mouth of Gratiot under the guise of it is "for the People" Build a road, now how much is it gonna take to build that road boys? Taxpayers dollars spent for a few fisherman. Not, spent to benefit the Big Bad Land Company. Take paradise put up a parking lot.


By EMF on Thursday, June 14, 2001 - 06:54 pm:

MOI it is ignorant individuals such as you that keep this county the way it is. I will surely look where I please when I drive my car. Thanx for the suggestions though. AS far as it being a business give me a break, you sound like you must ahve worked for C&H and crosssed the picket lines in sixty eight. Anything goes for the company man right.


By moi on Thursday, June 14, 2001 - 10:23 am:

Superior Crafts may not look pretty to you, but when you realize that it's a working business, with freedom found only in America, it ain't so ugly anymore. Look straight ahead when you drive by, then we're all happy. Keep your nose inside your car, now.


By SpeedTrap on Thursday, June 14, 2001 - 09:48 am:

At the Grant Township Meeting in Copper Harbor last night, there was Black Bear (Lonnie Glieberman) and his SideKicks, Mr. Sullivan and Mr. Niemala from the Tourism Council, begging for a $900,000 Grant from the Township to put in his Septic System. He said if we don't give him the Grant (tax money to the informed), he will put it in himself. But, if we give him the grant, he can spend that $900,000 for the lodge, wilderness cabins, and other beautification projects (like planting flowers on the hill). He claims the Grant Money is just government money and some people do agree with him. When asked why we should go for a grant for him only and possibly risk getting one later if LacLaBelle should need one, they say--Oh, there's always money available. Do you wonder why your taxes are high with mindsets like this from supposedly informed educated people.

The facts are--the Ski-Hill is a mess, muddy, yurts and all, unpaved parking lot built right by the road, and, he won't show his books to show actual economic need for a grant. What a charlatan. How foolish the people were to not see through this sham. The Township Board will schedule an open meeting with the DEQ to answer questions about the viability and responsibility of a Septic System owned and operated by the Township. This meeting will be posted when confirmed with the DEQ.

Remember, the Keweenaw County Board would not apply for a Grant for Mr. Glieberman because of the liability and maintanence issue ($). Let's hope the Grant Township Board will have the good sense to do the same.


By Lynn Torkelson (Ltorkelson) on Thursday, June 14, 2001 - 07:55 am:

It's good to see that Dick Armey is questioning some of the Big Brother methods of the federal government: Internet snooping system questioned.


By sTrike on Wednesday, June 13, 2001 - 09:24 pm:

eLMER,
BETTER YET, have the gubment build a fence, keep folk out, and call the product finished.


By Elmer on Wednesday, June 13, 2001 - 08:05 pm:

Heres a suggestion, why not spend the money on a berm and fence around that Pig stye called Superior Crafts in Mohawk. Superb Scenic views I guess so. Enforce the zoning folks then maybe buy land for public use.


By Ms. V. - St. Paul, MN on Wednesday, June 13, 2001 - 09:59 am:

Morning all from the almost night-like, soggy end of the plains:
Weather is really bad today, the streetlights are still on and it's almost 9 AM. Was catching up on reading the DMG and saw the feature story on Saturday involving the Charlie Brown statues down here. The "sunburned" CB referred to is around the corner from my job here in downtown St.Small. These statues are unbelievalby popular - the Snoopy exhibit last year was a summer-long event! If any of you folks are down this way this summer, its a good family activity - although there are lots of people of all ages who have gone around town to see them all. Hope all is well with you folks of the Keweenaw.


By Forrest Sawyer on Wednesday, June 13, 2001 - 12:59 am:

If KC takes the grant money, we won't be able to put a garbage dump at the mouth of the Gratiot even if that is the best place for one. If we spend our own money, we will be able to do what we want.


By Billion Dollar Baby on Tuesday, June 12, 2001 - 10:12 pm:

Tom Cat:
Cause this is Keweenaw. Why buy the mouth of gratiot with taxpayers dollars? when the funds will be available from others? Seems the Good Ol Boys are at it again. Spend the taxpayers dollars to benefit a few. Now thats the keweenaw we all love.


By dandelion on Tuesday, June 12, 2001 - 10:09 pm:

Any word on the County Board meeting tonight. IF the county is so friggin broke why have they decided to spend money on aquiring Gratiot River?
Broke my petutti.


By Tom Cat on Tuesday, June 12, 2001 - 06:03 pm:

Why would a tourist map show Garden City Pond as a good fishing spot and the road commission have a sign on the road for a place that has no water?
The Garden City Pond is gone.

Tom Cat


By pampered on Tuesday, June 12, 2001 - 10:26 am:

Another interesting article about global warming research from scientists' perspective.

Incidentally, Michigan Tech is connected (via Internet2) to the supercomputer centers that are mentioned in the article .

http://www.nytimes.com/2001/06/11/science/11CLIM.html


By moi on Monday, June 11, 2001 - 11:17 pm:

Are these caterpillars good for bait?


By John Doe on Monday, June 11, 2001 - 10:15 pm:

"Justice is the law of the great Manitou"
Tamenund
Chief of the Delaware

mohicans.jpg

By moi on Monday, June 11, 2001 - 10:43 am:

Kurt, Where'd you get a last name like that?


By Lynn Torkelson (Ltorkelson) on Sunday, June 10, 2001 - 03:14 pm:

Kurt,

Most environmental issues come down to evaluating costs against benefits. Honest disagreements arise when people evaluate costs and benefits differently. Just because in a particular case a person judges that the benefits of an enterprise outweigh its costs, it doesn't follow that his or her motivation is greed, apathy, or stupidity. If that person does judge wrongly, then the people opposed to the enterprise didn't do a good enough job of explaining its costs. Or maybe they did so in such an abrasive manner that no one cared to listen.

In the case of global warming, I'm confident that President Bush, after his recent seminar, now knows that the problem is a real one. He may not be studious, but he is quite an intelligent man. The tough problem, as always, is figuring out what to do about it. Of course I'm guessing, but I think President Bush will take whatever steps he can toward a solution, so long as he can do so without completely alienating his political base.


By Humanist on Sunday, June 10, 2001 - 01:30 pm:

Kurt Manners,

I disagree with your classification. People have lots to do and many demands on their time. Just because people haven't taken the time to read up on every issue doesn't mean they are apathetic. Global warming, for example, does not pose an immediate threat to us, so it is only natural for many people to defer making a judgment on that issue when they do face more immediate threats.


By Kurt Manners on Sunday, June 10, 2001 - 12:37 pm:

moi, it's easy to tell who is pro- and who is anti-environmentalist. The antis are made up of the self-interested, the apathetic, and the dunces. Everyone else is pro.


By Bourques Buddy on Sunday, June 10, 2001 - 08:09 am:

Mission Accomplished. Way to go Avalanche.
Ray Bourque has won the cup finally. I predict he will be back with the B's next year.


By moi on Saturday, June 9, 2001 - 08:05 pm:

Where do we find a list of local companies that donate part of their earnings to environmental groups?


By pampered on Saturday, June 9, 2001 - 06:58 pm:

Here's an interesting site posted by The Center for Science in the Public Interest. It's a database of over 1,100 professors and scientists who consult for or have other affiliations with chemical, gas, oil, food, drug, and other companies. The site also provides partial information about nonprofit and professional organizations that receive industry funding. See if your favorite nonprofit is on the list!

http://integrityinscience.org


By moi on Saturday, June 9, 2001 - 05:57 pm:

You wanna hear something cool, drive slowly with your windows open. You'll hear snapping..it's those army worms popping!


By Humanist on Saturday, June 9, 2001 - 11:31 am:

Home on the Range,

I'm not sure exactly what you are asking with your question, "What do you know personally about global warming?" I am a private citizen, was not involved in forging the Kyoto agreement, and do not work with any company or organization having an interest in the global warming matter one way or the other. I have read quite a bit of material on both sides of the issue, some clearly financed by groups with an axe to grind, some not, and some that I can't be sure of.

It is clear that greenhouse gases do trap heat from the sun and that the proportion of these gases is increasing in the atmosphere as a result of man's activities. There is growing evidence that the earth's surface temperature is rising as a result, as one would expect from the increase in greenhouse gases. However, the last proposition is obviously much more difficult to establish because we haven't had delicate sensors all over the earth for a hundred years and have to rely upon less precise data.

Those who attack the idea of global warming use several approaches. One approach is to point out the unreliability of some of the measurements used to show the rise in the earth's surface temperature over the past hundred years. But this approach does not contradict the logic that if you add more heat-trapping gases, you are going to get more heat. And this attack gets weaker and weaker as more evidence comes in.

Another attack is to say that nature will, over time, be able to absorb the additional increases in greenhouse gases created by man in the same way as it handles variations in greenhouse gases created by nature. If true, this would be great, but no one seems to have a clue about the specific ways that nature will do this. It's presented more as a matter of faith.

A third attack is to say that global warming is a fact, but that the results will be beneficial. Again, this is having a lot of unjustified faith, in my opinion. With the ice caps melting, cities will be flooded, salt water will crowd out fresh water, and storms and droughts will probably be more severe.

A fourth attack is to agree that global warming is a fact, but that to do anything about it now is too expensive or too inconvenient. However, the longer we put off addressing it, the more expensive and inconvenient it will become.

To me, the evidence for global warming is strong, and the arguments against it range from speculative to laughable. By objectivity, I mean making up one's mind about an issue on the facts alone, without regard for financial or other personal considerations.


By billy12 on Friday, June 8, 2001 - 10:49 pm:

Yeah, good use for Army worms, but what a waste of Viagara!


By Bigbrotherbilly on Friday, June 8, 2001 - 09:17 pm:

Finally found a use for these army worms. I've been spraying my trees with diluted VIAGARA then I pick up the worms and sell them as pipe cleaners! You can also use them as twist-ties!


By O! Home on the Range on Friday, June 8, 2001 - 05:10 pm:

Humanist,
Thank you kindly for the link. What do you know personally about global warming? I know very little, other than what I have read. But I will not make the accusation that those who argue one way or another, for or against warming, are "working for the oil companies".

Yeah, right, and the communists are infiltrating our school systems. Be uh-fraid, be vairily, uh-fraid!

I guess that means that the links that suggest otherwise are provided by the oil companies, too?
What does objectivity mean?


By Humanist on Friday, June 8, 2001 - 04:27 pm:

The Minor few:

What motive do you suppose the vast majority of scientists have for "trying to provoke fear in the rest of us about global warming [so] that we should ignore that minor few who argue intelligently against it"? You suggest that the relatively few scientists who dispute the evidence do so intelligently, and you imply that the vast majority of scientists who tell it like it is are really on a witch hunt. But the fact is that it is the power of the evidence that has determined the opinions of the vast majority of objective scientists, just as it was the evidence that determined the opinions of objective scientists about the links between smoking and cancer.

The greenhouse gases are known to trap heat--in fact the amount of heat that each greenhouse gas traps is well known and these objective facts are not disputed by any reputable scientist. Since the industrial revolution, the natural balance has been disturbed by man's introduction of more and more of these greenhouse gases into our atmosphere. That, too, is indisputable--the increases of these gases as a percentage of our air is measurable. The result of this is that the temperature on earth should be rising. Well, that has been measured too, and the effects of the increased temperatures have been more violent weather and rapidly shrinking polar ice caps.

In any system as complex as the earth's weather system, there are indeed many uncertainties. Scientists recognize them and are working to resolve open questions every day. That's why we can state with much more confidence today that global warming is real than we could in 1990.

In the U.S. alone, our greenhouse gas emissions are about 1.9 billion metric tons per year and rising. The onus is on the anti-global warming people to explain exactly how this tampering with our atmosphere can continue without causing more of the warming that we've already experienced:
How global warming happens.


By moi on Friday, June 8, 2001 - 04:04 pm:

Absolutely not!


By The Minor few on Friday, June 8, 2001 - 03:06 pm:

Humanist,
You argue that because a majority of scientists are trying to provoke fear in the rest of us about global warming that we should ignore that minor few who argue intelligently against it.

If we took that argument and ran with it, then anytime a majority of people decided something is, than it darn well will be. i.e. The rest of the world is a Third World and deserves nothing less than to be treated like a Third World, third place, third in line, third served.
After all, the majority of the industrial world considers the ancient civilizations of the Third World to be inferior and in need of civilization.

Either that, or Santa Claus has visitor hours at the North Pole every day of the year except New Years, because 99.99% of nine-year-olds believe and know that Santa can be found there at those times.

In another time, that small minority of scientists [that] dispute the majority's claim, would be burned at the stake (you will recall that argument...crusades, blah blah, blah blah, etc.). And I suppose all 17,000 of them work for Exxon. Gosh, with a payroll like that, I can see why our universities are suffering. Yeah, right. Give me a break.


By The Wooly Mammoth Guild on Friday, June 8, 2001 - 02:58 pm:

I represent the Wooly Mammoth Guild, yes, the Wooly Mammoth Guild and in the name of the Wooly Mammoth Guild we kindly ask of you to please refrain from digging up and disturbing the hallowed fields of our forefathers as they rest in their ancestral burial grounds. Our Wooly Mammoth forefathers deserve to lie unmolested by the heathen foragers of antiquities. Please refrain.


By O! I be hot and all! on Friday, June 8, 2001 - 02:23 pm:

Humanist,
You really don't understand, though I realize you are trying to be understanding. Think of me as a heretic, questioning the status quo. I know it is unlikely that I will be burned at your stake, but what do you really know about global warming? Recently, we read here an article about placebos, read that placebos aren't all they are stacked up to be. But few questioned placebos over the course of their fifteen minutes of fame.

So while some may want to cower with fear under their school desk, drop!, and cover!, I refuse. I admit my knowledge of global warming is only what I've read, written by infallible man, unlikely to have been inspired by God, and considering the wrath of other men when it comes to the things of God, and using that argument, I refuse to believe you. That there are those with more knowledge and credentials than I possess, lends credence to my heresy.


By Quebecan Cryptozoologist on Friday, June 8, 2001 - 02:07 pm:

An ability to feel guilt is one of the foundations of the human conscience.
Global warming is here and we are contributing to it. Will it lead to "catastrophic" changes?(probably not in our lifetime) Who will ultimately suffer the most from those changes?(Hard to say)
In the meantime, shall I feel guilty for not driving a high mpg fuel-cell alternative, or not putting up solar panels, or using a wood burning stove, or even eating meat?
YES!
(Though my sole concern is how zis global warming will effect Sasquatch habitat. Zees is za sine qua non of my very voyageuristic being and to not proclaim it befo' zee world would be high trea-zone!
Do you really know where the "beef" in that Whopper you just ate actually originated?
La Leche Leaguers unite!
Adopt and nurse a baby Bigfoot today!)


By Forrest Sawyer on Friday, June 8, 2001 - 12:25 pm:

The last time I looked, smoking was still legal. As for the scientists, there has to be something besides smoking involved, probably heredity as well, to cause lung cancer. My father smoked all his life and never got lung cancer, and neither have I. If one of your parents or grandparents got lung cancer and smoked, then you might have something to worry about if you smoke. Otherwise I don't think so. And anyway global warming and smoking are apples and oranges, so why bring up smoking? Just another way to make things harder for the greatest generation the world has ever known, us.


By Humanist on Friday, June 8, 2001 - 11:16 am:

moi, would you happen to be a smoker, by any chance?


By moi on Friday, June 8, 2001 - 10:08 am:

The environmentalists also have a theory on "global cooling". In the old days these fluctuations were called weather patterns. Now they're an invented problem.


By Humanist on Friday, June 8, 2001 - 08:20 am:

Hot and All,

A small minority of scientists dispute the overwhelming evidence that man-made emmissions contribute to global warming.

Not so many years ago, in exactly the same way, a small minority of scientists disputed the overwhelming evidence that cigarette smoking causes cancer. The testimony of those scientists helped to block legislation that would have saved the lives of many people, but such legislation would also have lowered the profits of the interested corporations. Later on, in courts of law, lawyers from those same corporations argued that "surely no one believed those studies we publicised that said cigarette smoking might not cause cancer--everyone knew that we used those studies to cover our 'butts'."

The profits of many large corporations will be compromised if they have to stop belching their waste into our air, so it's not surprising that scientists can be found to provide some obfuscatory cover for our political "leaders". Many of those "leaders" depend upon receiving vast sums of money from those same corporations.

I wonder how long it will be before lawyers for those very same corporations argue that "everyone has known for years that we were causing global warming, and did nothing to stop it, so now everyone is responsible for the costs of reversing what we did."


By We Are Concentrating on One Suspect at This Time on Friday, June 8, 2001 - 06:25 am:

Since we've rid ourselves of religious guilt, we may as well try to find more of it in the form of the guilt of being. I understand that one of the frozen mammoths that scientists have shamelessly disturbed in its frozen gavesite actually died of a heart-attack atop a bait-pile of mammoth pellets and Siberian apples.
Oog-oog, Son of Ooo-U-Lugg, is believed to be responsible for the event. Evidence for this is found on the birch bark fossilized record of Aye-Aye-OnU, Son of Shoulder Patch, possibly the first game warden, made famous during the Stone Age for catching poaching Neanderthals.


By Thunderbolt on Friday, June 8, 2001 - 06:11 am:

Perplexity Perplexus: Back when I studied our local history, I did learn that the Methodists have a long and distinguished history in the Copper Country. My recollection is that a Reverend Sunday from Canada began preaching to the Ojibway around 1834 and that Reverend Chandler was appointed missionary to the Keweenaw around 1837. The Reverend Pitezel of the Methodist Mission in L'Anse was a contemporary of Father Baraga in the 1840s, and both of those clergymen used to trek up and down the Keweenaw, on showshoes during the winter, to minister to their respective flocks.


By O! Id be hot and all! on Friday, June 8, 2001 - 06:10 am:

From the Media Research Center:

CBS News on Wednesday night again hyped a report on how industrial pollution is causing global warming, as they always do with anything which advances the theory and liberal solutions to
it, while not airing stories when contrary evidence is developed.

"The findings may put a harsh light on Mr. Bush's global warming policy," Dan Rather intoned on the June 6 CBS Evening News. John Roberts warned that "a team from the National Academy
of Sciences found compelling evidence that the Earth is getting hotter as a result of human activity" and noted how "environmentalists, who met with the Vice President yesterday,
today declared it is time to wage all out war on global warming."

But seconds later, Roberts undermined the environmentalists' premise that reducing CO2 emissions would have any impact, as he conceded the scientists "can't say precisely how much of the warming is man-made and how much might be part of a natural cycle."

Rather set up the piece, as transcribed by MRC analyst Brad Wilmouth: "America's top climate experts today gave President Bush their latest read on the threat from global warming. It was an
assessment the President asked for. CBS News has gotten hold of a copy, and as John Roberts reports now, the findings may put a harsh light on Mr. Bush's global warming policy."

Roberts began: "In the most comprehensive assessment yet of the issue of global warming, a team from the National Academy of Sciences found compelling evidence that the Earth is getting
hotter as a result of human activity. The report, prepared at the request of the White House, found that global temperatures have increased one degree in the past hundred years, and that with
current production levels of Greenhouse gases, the pace of warming is predicted to accelerate another 2.5 to 10.4 degrees by the end
of this century. Environmentalists who met with the Vice President yesterday, today declared it is time to wage all out war on global warming."

David Hawkins, Natural Resources Defense Council: "The debate over the science is over. When we burn coal and oil, we pollute
the air. It causes global warming. We know what the problem is. We know what the solution is. The time now is for action."

Roberts: "President Bush has been under attack from our European allies for abandoning the Kyoto protocol to curb Greenhouse gases and reversing a campaign promise to cut down
production of carbon dioxide, the most prevalent Greenhouse gas."
Bush in March: "And the idea of placing caps on C02 does not
make economic sense for America."
Roberts: "When he travels to Europe next week, Mr. Bush is expected to offer interim steps to reduce production of certain pollutants, but there will be no comprehensive strategy in the
near future."

After a clip of Condoleezza Rice promising the administration will take the problem seriously, Roberts concluded: "The President
may find some wiggle room in this report because while scientists confirm levels of Greenhouse gases are higher now than at any time
in the past 400,000 years, they can't say precisely how much of the warming is man-made and how much might be part of a natural
cycle."

That's "wiggle room" on a raging scientific debate the networks refuse to report accurately.
As demonstrated in a recent MRC Special Report, "Clamoring for Kyoto: The Networks' One-Sided Coverage of Global Warming," during Bush's first three months in office the networks pretended no scientist believes global warming
is not fueled by pollution. To read the study, with links to contrary evidence, go to:

http://www.mediaresearch.org/specialreports/fmp/2001/globalwarmingexec.html

Over 17,000 scientists have signed a petition which states: "There is no convincing scientific evidence that human release of carbon dioxide, methane, or other greenhouse gasses is causing or
will, in the foreseeable future, cause catastrophic heating of the Earth's atmosphere and disruption of the Earth's climate.
Moreover, there is substantial scientific evidence that increases in atmospheric carbon dioxide produce many beneficial effects upon
the natural plant and animal environments of the Earth."

For more on the petition, go to:
http://www.oism.org/pproject/s33p37.htm

For details on who has signed it so far, go to:
http://www.oism.org/pproject/s33p357.htm

TechCentralStation.com currently features an illuminating interview with Dr. Sallie Baliunas of the Harvard-Smithsonian Center for Astrophysics. She asserted: "The science altogether is unsettled, but we know for sure that the models that make the predictions into the future are exaggerating the warmth."

The interview with James K. Glassman begins:

Glassman: "Dr. Baliunas, we've heard that temperatures have increased on Earth over the last century. Now, is our assumption
essentially that they had been stable before that?"
Baliunas: "The temperature of the Earth has increased over the last 100 years. We have instruments -- thermometers -- at the
surface of the Earth that tell us that. The warming began early in the 20th century, late in the 19th century. But before that, there
was a very long, protracted cooling that began in the 14th century that continued to the mid 19th century -- a 500-year relative cold
spell called the Little Ice Age. Before that, 800 or 1,000 years ago -- the early part of the second millennium -- the temperature
was even higher than today, worldwide."

For the rest of the discussion, go to:
http://www.techcentralstation.com/BigShotFriday.asp

Is there room under the school desk for everyone?


By Goodnight Sweet Bigfoot on Thursday, June 7, 2001 - 10:37 pm:

Thursday, June 7, 2001 Time Magazine
A Wooly Whodunit — Man Killed the Mammoth
Two new studies support the hypothesis that human hunting played a significant role in the extinction of large animals in North America and Australia.
BY KATHERINE BONAMICI
What killed the great North American wooly mammoth? That question — which has bedevilled scientists for decades — may be closer to an answer this week with the release of two studies in the journal Science.
The two studies support the 'overkill' or 'blitzkrieg' theory of extinction, developed in the 1970s by Paul Martin at the University of Arizona. Martin blamed the extinctions on the arrival of humans, and likened their passage down the continent to a "bloody wave," resembling the passage of German tanks through Europe during World War Two. At the time, other scientists objected to Martin's thesis, sugesting that climate change or a sudden virus was a more likely culprit in the extinction of the giant animals.
It's those darn spear carriers
In the first of the two new studies, John Alroy of the University of California, Santa Barbara, used a computer simulation to determine whether overkilling by human was a conceivable cause of the wave of extinction, which occurred about 1200 years after humans are believed to have arrived in North America 13,400 years ago. The simulation took into account factors ranging from population density to hunting ability, and was able to correctly predict the extinction of 32 out of the 41 species studied.
The second study, which examined the disappearance of large animals in Australia, sought to specify the time frame of the extinction rather than the cause. According to the study, every Australian land mammal, reptile and bird heavier than 100 kg and most of those weighing 45 to 100 kg died out 46,400 years ago. The study, which used optical dating to pinpoint the age of fossils from sites across Australia, narrowed the previously fuzzy timeframe of the extinction. But the new dates makes human influence a more likely factor because scientists believe humans arrived on the continent between 52 and 60 thousand years ago.
"It is clear that the downward spiral of these animals was after the arrival of humans," said Linda Ayliffe of the University of Utah in Salt Lake City, one of the researchers on the project.
The studies have their detractors. Some scientists cite the lack of archeological evidence as one of many problems with Alroy's study, and Ayliffe says it is unlikely that hunting was the sole cause of the Australian extinction. She suggests that the human use of fire, combined with hunting, may have been too much for the species to bear.


By Perplexity perplexus on Thursday, June 7, 2001 - 08:59 pm:

Thunderbolt:
The following, in reference to mid 19th century Central, is from the Grand Callithumpian chapter of Boom Copper by Angus Murdoch--

“No chanting and ceremonial rites for the Cousin Jack. Whenever original ideas of the hereafter occurred, he liked to stand right up in church and air them. He was highly articulate, if uneducated, and took turns with fellow Wesleyans in preaching the weekly sermon. In fact, Methodist churches had no regular preachers during the early days on the range; competition, it was felt, made for livelier sermons.”

Kind of reminds me of this KI forum…


By Forrest Sawyer on Thursday, June 7, 2001 - 04:36 pm:

I agree 1000% with Whew! It's been hot! Who cares about global warming today anyway? Environmentalists want us to give up something now to help out those pantywaists of the future. We've given up too much already! Let the people in the future buy bigger air conditioners or something! What about us? Yes, us! Now let's get out on our boats and enjoy this warm weather before the environmentalists take it away again!


By Where's my Gazette! on Thursday, June 7, 2001 - 04:35 pm:

The young lad who will be bringing the Gazette to my house just stopped and introduced himself as my new carrier. I was impressed. He looked like he was about eleven years old. His name is Keith. No doubt a future salesman, his partner was there and informed me that he would be doing the route in month, as Keith would be busy with a much-needed vacation. Probably from hefting all those sales inserts.

When I carried a canvas sack through the wilds of a local Finnish ghetto, braving unchained demons (unfriendly dogs) and pals who walked with me (friendly dogs), the heaviest delivery I had was around Labor Day, before the back-to-school sales took place. That was one day out of the year and the weight I carried for two miles to bring the news to 26 customers, for four long years, was enough that I split the stack and delivered half at a time.

I salute the kids who carry the Gazette. You deserve every dollar you are paid to deliver the news.


By Whew! It's been hot! on Thursday, June 7, 2001 - 04:23 pm:

pampered,
The "Kyoto Protocol" was what, approved by all of one country in Europe? Romania, was it? What happened to the other European countries, the other leaders. The article says this of them: European leaders expressed outrage in March when Mr. Bush rejected the global warming pact known as the Kyoto Protocol. Like I said, I believe only one country in Europe approved/passed/swallowed hole the Kyoto Protocol. So it is interesting that the other European "leaders" are criticizing President Bush. He did the right thing by throwing it out with the rest of the garbage.

The Kyoto Protocol-nonsense limits us, but gives a green light to other countriesMs. Rice said," One would want to be certain that developing countries were accounted for in some way, that technology and science really ought to be important parts of this answer…"
But I guess when American corporations are moving across borders, this helps them out as it limits the competition that stays in the US.

I say the science is not conclusive about global warming, and the article agrees with words like: the warming of the last 50 years is probably because of …
Probably? Probably what? Followed by: …large uncertainties limit predictions of the extent and consequences….[of global warming]….and again: …climate warming could well be a dominant environmental problem … Could? Yeah, right, and there are communists in Hollywood.

These inconclusive words are followed by the unabashed statement: The president can no longer wiggle out of aggressive action by arguing that the science is inconclusive…

Seems to me there is something inconclusive about it, otherwise the wise men looking into their crystal balls at the New York Times wouldn't have to resort to the language they used.

But I guess when our country has lived its life with the thought that the Soviet Union may launch missiles at us one day, as we cowered under our school desks, then global warming gives us a reason to stay there, eh?


By yourmama on Thursday, June 7, 2001 - 02:36 pm:

Mothers who breast feed their babies have a lower rate of cancer...so put that in your pipe and smoke it.


By Forrest Sawyer on Thursday, June 7, 2001 - 01:53 pm:

Rough and Ready Kilowatt,

A national grid will let foolish people take their power from areas of the country that have thought ahead to build the plants they need. Most likely then, the foolish people will never build the plants they need. Instead, hundreds of plants will be built next to coal mines to supply California and New York with power over the national grid. The article you mentioned says that, "the Bush plan to connect the grids involves taking land by eminent domain." So they'll confiscate private property instead of letting foolish people feel the consequences of their own stupid decisions. Here we go again.


By pampered on Thursday, June 7, 2001 - 01:09 pm:

mindboggled:

You wrote:

"Why is that woman still breast feeding a 18 month old? My two kids were stopped at 12 months."

Whose business is it how long a woman chooses to breastfeed her child? Because you stopped nursing at twelve months, does that means every mother should? And what's so magical about twelve months? My daughter nursed (occasionally) until she was four years old. She seemed to need that closeness and comfort. Maybe that's WHY she's so well adjusted today!

Sometimes this site just cracks me up!


By Sally Forth-Wright on Thursday, June 7, 2001 - 01:06 pm:

mindboggled:
You ask, "Why is that woman still breast feeding a 18 month old?" I think that you know the answer to that! And of course
the La Leche League recommends nursing your toddlers, although they keep quiet (in print anyway) about their real reasons for doing so. Why should we continue with these primitive practices when infant formula is nutritious and plentiful and does not have those horrendous side effects?


By mindboggled on Thursday, June 7, 2001 - 12:17 pm:

Sally Forth-Wright:

I just read the ban breast feeding bull$%@!.

Why is that woman still breast feeding a 18 month old? My two kids were stopped at 12 months. If that woman is as aroused as claimed, she should be charged with some crime!

As for the founder - she is probably single and jealous that she can't get any.....

I was breast fed - I don't do drugs, smoke or drink. The correlations in that essay are in my opinion ludicrous. By the way I was well into college before I had my first sexual experience....

It is people like them that has contributed to the government passing so many laws that the average person can not hope to obey them all. If a law was passed as proposed, at some point the law will be broken. Then what? take money away from a family that may not be able to afford it? Take the mother away from a young child?

I think they are promoting the break down of the family unit...and that does not need any more help!


By Humanist on Thursday, June 7, 2001 - 09:06 am:

Good article, pampered. It looks like our president is getting some on-the-job training about the reality of global warming. Sure hope it does some good. Maybe he'll change his current plan to increase our greenhouse gas emissions by 35%.


By pampered on Thursday, June 7, 2001 - 08:25 am:

Sorry about changing the subject, folks, but here's an interesting article about the Bush Administration and global warming in today's New York Times:

http://www.nytimes.com/2001/06/07/science/07WARM.html


By D. Berry on Thursday, June 7, 2001 - 04:39 am:

Well, BillyBob, guess you're going to have to lay your essays on us. Can't say we haven't been warned though.


By Thunderbolt on Wednesday, June 6, 2001 - 10:29 pm:

Perplexity: No, I hadn't heard of that tradition. Was that an intentional permanent arrangement or was it done because a circuit rider came by so infrequently? In any case, whole congregations must have been pretty well versed on their methodist discipline.


By moi on Wednesday, June 6, 2001 - 02:19 pm:

That appears to be a wacko site, or just a farce. Breastfeeding is natural & healthy. But, there's also no need to make an uncovered public display of it. If someone thinks it's a sexual thing, they're sick in the head.


By Ms. V. - St. Paul, MN on Wednesday, June 6, 2001 - 01:21 pm:

Sorry, no support here to abolish breast-feeding. Didn't know if I should laugh at the absurdity or sigh in resignation that we have people in the world who are so uptight (American's specifically) about a natural process. My friend nurses her infant daughter, and has not once spoke of any erotic connection (read the blurb - its so unbelievable you almost have to believe it) while nursing. It may happen - but I have met enough adults breast-fed as infants to know that it takes a LOT more than that for a child to develop his sexual proclivities. I think I'll go with the research that shows breast milk is best for baby (and formula is fine if its needed) but the world survived before there was formula and I am sure it will still. By the way, have you priced formula lately? Outrageous.


By Sally Forth-Wright on Wednesday, June 6, 2001 - 10:35 am:

Finally someone is challenging the LaLeche League! Many women don't seem to be able to restrain themselves from certain activities, so unfortunately the government must take action to set things right. Child abuse takes many forms, but one of the most long-standing forms of child abuse has been increasing in recent years as the LaLeche League has successfully propagandized for its radical agenda. Please help us combat this threat: The Poison in Mothers' Milk. You will be doing the children of the 21st century a big favor, and you will also be helping to preserve the livelihoods of many of your fellow citizens who work in the infant formula industry. Thanks for your support!


By Henry Wadsworth-Hall Longfellow on Wednesday, June 6, 2001 - 03:37 am:

From Christus Introitus:

PROPHET.
Oh tell me, for thou knowest,
Wherefore and by what grace,
Have I, who am least and lowest,
Been chosen to this place,
To this exalted part?

ANGEL.
Because thou art
The Struggler; and from thy youth
Thy humble and patient life
Hath been a strife
And battle for the Truth;
Nor hast thou paused nor halted,
Nor ever in thy pride
Turned from the poor aside,
But with deed and word and pen
Hast served thy fellow-men;
Therefore art thou exalted!


By Rough and Ready Kilowatt on Wednesday, June 6, 2001 - 02:33 am:

Go figure...
Apparently there are those out there who disagree with my skepticism about a Comprehensive National Energy Grid:


June 6, 2001 NY Times
Wattage Where It's Needed
By ROGER ANDERSON
President Bush's energy plan, to its credit, takes on in a coherent way all of the supply and demand elements that make up the nation's energy system, something not attempted since the Carter administration. And as the long view demands, the plan calls for a national system of power transmission — a national electricity grid. Our increasing use of computers, requiring ever more electricity, makes this grid an absolute necessity.

click here for rest of story

By Perplexity perplexus on Wednesday, June 6, 2001 - 02:08 am:

Thank You thank you Thunderbolt thunderbolt
It's good to see that some common-sense christians dwell among US as well

ps: Are you aware of the 19th century Central methodist tradition which positioned a new parishioner as the preacher every week?
Talk about your American participatory democracy, eh?


By Booby-billy on Tuesday, June 5, 2001 - 05:17 pm:

The first thing I saw as I climbed the creek bed was the remains of a small beaver dam and further on, through the over-hanging boughs of cedars, I could see the water that I had searched for two days to find. The day before I had hiked up steep hills and down ravines and up even steeper hills and I had found two large bodies of water that didn't appear on the topographic map I carried in my camouflaged raincoat pocket. But I could not find the fishing hole that the map said was there. (I still don't know if a path leads to it.) I had been wet and cold and before the day ended I had been exhausted, but this day I emerged out of the creek bed that whispered between two hillsides and there it was. Shimmering windblown water. The wind was blowing onto the edge of the lake clearing as I ducked under an overhanging evergreen and finally stood on the water's edge. Simply seeing the water was reward enough. But there was more. There were pines scattered on the shore, forty, fifty, or sixty feet high--the first branch thirty feet off the ground. And on the left boulders the size of Volkswagens fell into the water from a high hill, while to the right a hill just as high was covered with just as many trees as the other. I was standing where few people had stood before. The fishing was great, too, even though I wasn't having much luck, about the same as the large raptor that circled overhead. I felt like a kid at Christmas. Just another tourist in the Keweenaw. When I left, I avoided stepping into the water of the smaller beaver dam where earlier I stepped into four feet of vegetation growing from what seemed like a shallow bottom. My waders would have all week to dry out.


By Rough and Ready Kilowatt on Tuesday, June 5, 2001 - 12:31 pm:

I too entertained the notion that Assuredly saved was a gag agitator as well, but since he singled out my "Electronic Pearl Harbor" post as the work of SATAN, I felt it only gentlemanly to go a few rounds with him.
So now I'm ready for a Billybob essay. Come on Billybob, don't disappoint me.


By pampered on Tuesday, June 5, 2001 - 10:49 am:

Am I the only one who thought that Assuredly Saved was just being factitious?

Where's your sense of humor, folks?

Assuredly Saved, please tell everyone you were just joshing? Please.


By Ms. V. - St. Paul, MN on Tuesday, June 5, 2001 - 09:46 am:

Morning all: I'm done with dealing with @$$uredly Saved so BillyBob you got your wish.
I still wanna know the answer to my Lac La Belle question, though.
The weather is really lousy here today - rain, cold, and a November-like gray.


By Thunderbolt on Monday, June 4, 2001 - 10:01 pm:

Perplexed: Here's another good Web example of people who pretend to be Christians, but are not: Westboro Baptist Church spews filth. I guess Assuredly Saved would fit right in with these scumbags. But real Christians wouldn't get within smelling distance of them.


By Thunderbolt on Monday, June 4, 2001 - 09:31 pm:

Perplexed: Here's a good Web example of people who pretend to be Christians, but are not: Christian Identity group cheers for Timothy McVeigh. All real Christians retch at the thought of being associated with these wretches. Their biblical "reasoning" is on a par with Assuredly Saved's.


By BillyBob on Monday, June 4, 2001 - 09:18 pm:

Jeez, you people are BORING. Why are you trying to match wits with Asssuredly Saved. He is obviously some 15 year old punk (male) with semi-intelligence, and a knack for pushing the rest of you'alls buttons. Get on with the important stuff, or I will have to get involved and treat you to a LONG daily essay. I don.t want to do this, but I will. The choice is your's.


By Perplexed on Monday, June 4, 2001 - 04:38 pm:

Thunderbolt: Please give us some examples of those "who distort Christianity to bolster their decidedly unChristian extremist agendas" so that we all may determine whether we're walking the straight and narrow.
Thank you.


By moi on Monday, June 4, 2001 - 02:59 pm:

Sour Grapes,
It seems that a small minority of the people in little cars are, in fact, NOT okay. Their noses are so long that they reach into private property.


By Ms. V. - St. Paul, MN on Monday, June 4, 2001 - 10:41 am:

Morning from the end of the Plains:
Could someone get me up to speed about what restaurant failed in Lac La Belle? I was there a year ago May - everything seemed fine. Also, hadn't heard about the new hotel/motel/resort/tourist trap up there either, so could someone give me the "Cliff Notes" version?

•••-uredly Saved:
The only heaven you are aware of is the one up your backside where it seems you head must dwell. Since the rest of us are all heathen/pagens beyond redemption/salvation, why do you even bother us with your rantings on the worship of the almighty dollar? What's the matter? Not enough dollar bills to wipe your tush with? Maybe if you used both hands and pulled your head out of your @$$ then you could actually breathe the cleaner air up there and clear out the debris from your obviously polluted head. You need more than an attitude adjustment, a labotomy might be more in order. As far as God's ecomomic plan is concerned: Fine. Let's not contribute to anything - and that includes tithing. Survival of the fittest - are you fit enough? Remember 10% of your gross belongs to God - you OWE Him. So, do you tithe? You obviously have no clue of what God's economic plan really is.


By Catfish on Monday, June 4, 2001 - 01:01 am:

Is it true a motel is going to be built in LacLabelle. I wonder if Mr. Olson will be able to get the financing. A bank will think twice about loaning him over a million dollars when someone borrowed alot less to build a restaurant in LacLabelle and could not make a go of it. I am sure Mr. Olson does not have the type of money to finance it himself. I don't think a bank will give him that much money since the ski hill plans on building it's own lodging.


By SOUR GRAPES on Monday, June 4, 2001 - 12:02 am:

O.K., I'm A Wings fan. As I see it, there's 2 kinds of people : Wings fans who admit it, and Wings fans who don't.
Hey, can I get to a deeper point here ? Hockey is a great game. We sure love it up here. We'll hate the "other" team, fiercely defend our team, and take offense to smack-talk about 'em.
But, it's just a game. And we all know that. The bigger-than-life emotions are part of the fun. ( Hey- did you know that the original word that "fan" came from was "fanatic" ?)
In closing, Mr. Larochelle taught me that our system of government is deliberately slow. That way, we govern according to our convictions, not our emotions. Emotions are cool for watching sports, Woo'ing your misses, making music, whatever. ( Heck, they even can get A public posting web-site rockin' !)
But emotions are not a part of government, or religious discussion. These are about conviction. And our government is wasting time, effort, money,and good intentions, by trying to react to our pathetic, wussy emotions.
C'mon, people ! We all are more hopelessly alike than our pride will let us admit. I work at a job that lets me see & get to know all types. I don't care if you drive a truck or a Subaru, an SUV or a mini-van. Everyone's O.K.
Just watch the play-offs.
Bourque, you deserve one.


By Liz Benson on Sunday, June 3, 2001 - 09:14 pm:

Justin,
Congrats on your fly fishing adventure! Arthritic thumbs now limit my enjoyment of placing flies for those elusive slurpers. Instead, I take my godsons, 13 and 15. Started them on the Firehole River in Yellowstone, moved to the Ranch in Island Park. Now teaching rowing techniques. The peace and serenity of the line, fly, nature and self are undescribable to the non fisher. Enjoy every tangle and every adventure!
Idaho Auntie Spud


By Thunderbolt on Sunday, June 3, 2001 - 10:08 am:

Confused: Real Christians should not be disturbed by the posts of Assuredly Saved, and they surely shouldn't take those posts as mocking their faiths. People who follow Christ's teachings contribute a lot to the community and have little or nothing in common with Assuredly Saved. The only people who should be disturbed by Assuredly Saved's posts are those who distort Christianity to bolster their decidedly unChristian extremist agendas.


By Confused on Sunday, June 3, 2001 - 06:04 am:

Assuredly Saved,
Your posts are disturbing. I believe your intent is to mock Christianity, rather than to uplift it.
For example:


Quote:

By Assuredly Saved on Tuesday, May 15, 2001 - 11:26 am:
In heaven, we will be able to watch those in hellfire as they writhe in agony and pain, forever. Oh, what a joy that will be!



I don't recall reading any information provided by God in the Bible about this coming attraction, an event that you seem to be eagerly awaiting.
I do read, however, words to the effect that everything will be made new, and that God will wipe every tear from every eye (Revelation chapter 7, Isaiah chapter 65) an event that suggests to me that there will be joy in heaven only after the old has passed away. I realize you may actually be a son of thunder, but I'm confused.

By R&R KWatt on Sunday, June 3, 2001 - 05:51 am:

As.s:
I love God and I love Free Enterprise(especially the Mom & Pop type), so I don’t quite know what ugly ideological mud you dredged up your last kneejerk response from(perhaps a new sewage-holding pond North by Northwest of Lac La Belle?).
But anyway, here’s to all our Future’s.
It is spread upon the Earth yet men see it not.
Not yet anyway…


By Assuredly saved on Sunday, June 3, 2001 - 05:01 am:

Rough and Ready Kilowatt--People like you who mock God and who despise His holy Free Enterprise System will NOT SUCCEED in replacing our Way of Life with your damnable ATHEISTIC COMMUNISM! You may belittle His Plan, but HIS Powers are far greater than those of PUNY MEN like you.


By Progress Hornsby on a Bad Hair Day atop Mt. Bohemia on Sunday, June 3, 2001 - 02:26 am:

They put out the fire.
It’s cool here now.


If you have a Real Player click here for streaming audio/video


Goodnight Sweet Cocoa Imogenie...
By R&R KWatt on Sunday, June 3, 2001 - 01:11 am:

•••(uredly) Saved:
Since you quoted scripture first, I can only assume that you are in even deeper collusion with the Dark Lord(and having visited ••••, I can assure you, it's an interesting place to harrow but you wouldn't want to live there).

I can only reply to your voodoo mojo with hmmmm again. Whom shall I believe, Assuredly Saved’s "interpretation" of the Good Lord’s words, or the words of Jesus himself?

The Kingdom of Heaven is spread upon the earth, but men see it not…(until they be reborn?)


By Assuredly saved on Saturday, June 2, 2001 - 11:53 pm:

Rough and Ready Kilowatt--Even SATAN can quote scripture to try to fool the gullible. As you well know, the meaning of the verse you quoted is that earthly riches are not taken with us to heaven. To suggest otherwise is to mock Our Saviour, and is doing the work of SATAN!


By Rough and Ready Kilowatt on Saturday, June 2, 2001 - 10:30 pm:

Assuredly saved: The Bush Administration is taking action against this Windows achilles heel so I guess they are just Satan-controlled puppets as well. As for your equation of (true) Free Enterprise with Multinational Corporate Capitalism and your homo economicus religious philosophy which you use to identify who are the “True” Christians, I can only quote scripture in turn:

Verily I say unto you, that a rich man shall hardly enter into the kingdom of heaven. And again I say unto you, It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God
Jesus
Matthew 23-4


Hmmm…let me see now. Should I believe Assuredly Saved’s economic interpretation of God’s Plan(which seems to worship Big $ no matter how it was acquired, yes let's welcome the murderous Drug Cartel chiefs and rich child pornographers, it's all part of God's infallible Plan) or should I believe the Beatitudes of Jesus?
Hmmmm…
That is a tough one.
I guess we all reap what we sow.

By Bourques Buddy on Saturday, June 2, 2001 - 10:05 pm:

Patrick Roy and the AVS 2 Devils 1 at the end of two. Aw to sip from the cup Ray.


By Bigbrotherbilly on Saturday, June 2, 2001 - 09:29 pm:

Bourques Buddy,


All it takes is a tape measure to show that most lots are too small for a legal septic system. Most camps are so close to the water that you could pee out the window into the lake. If you need proof flush a toilet and run out to the beach and watch the brown trout swim by.


By Chester Wader on Saturday, June 2, 2001 - 08:59 pm:

Does anyone know if the HELMA Bus Line still goes toward the Lost Lake, or is that only a rumor? If Lost Lake isn't lost, how many bread crumbs must one carry to find it?


By Bourques Buddy on Saturday, June 2, 2001 - 07:17 pm:

Sour Grapes
You must be a wings fan. Whats the problem, put your wings jacket in the closet with the mothballs for another forty years. Go Bourque Go,

Big Brother Billy
I would like to see proof of your statements. I know of a good many camps in the lac la belle area that have brand new septic systems. So show me the facts or find a pine tree to hide behind.
Seems the DEQ will be monitoring LLB this summer. WE shall see who is full of what by the end of summer won't we.


By just a dumb native Keweeneese on Saturday, June 2, 2001 - 07:09 pm:

HMM<Heikki
U hear that da deputy dog is gonna built a model down where da wilderness used tabe.
Yeah, seems like a perfect place for da trolls to put der feet up and have a few beers after da skiing.
Wonder if he will hook up to lonnies poopy ponds or maybe he can pipe it to da lighthouse and spray it all over dat kohs land.

Geez, I sure hope dat Mr. Colman from dat UP engineers can get us some of dat dere grant money to send us to finishing school. We do have some cultural issues to deal with ya know.
I thot dat Mrs. Sullivan, Mrs. Gregorich, Mrs. Salata, and Mrs. Kuusisto did a good job at the Keweenaw Elementary. Just goes ta show ya dat we yooppers/keweenaw natives have alot to learn eh?

Dats ok Heikki, we go fishing tommorow!!!!!


By Lynn Torkelson (Ltorkelson) on Saturday, June 2, 2001 - 04:31 pm:

According to this link (thanks, Constance!) we have only one more month to deal with these tent caterpillars until we get to the moths: Eastern Tent Caterpillars on the march.


By Bigbrotherbilly on Saturday, June 2, 2001 - 03:34 pm:

Scott,


Why start worrying about septic systems in Lac Labelle now when 99% of the homes there don't have adequate systems themselves? Most of their waste gets filtered in the world's largest treatment plant nameley Lake Superior. If you don't want this motel feel free to buy the site yourself and do what you want with it.


By SOUR GRAPES ? on Saturday, June 2, 2001 - 10:40 am:

Hey, is it just me, or is it really sickening to hear Bill Clement say beautiful things about Ray Bourque every time the camera catches him ? How about the long-standing infatuation that ESPN has with Patrick Roy ?
Of course, there's no denying it - these guys are good. But, they need to be on great teams. Remember Roy's exit from the Canadians ? C'mon. Bill. Act like you've been somewhere.
The Jon Madden style, and the Wayne's World "We're not worthy !" gets too dumb for me.
I have grown to appreciate Don Cherry. ( ! )
To make it worse, our reason to root for the Devils is hurt.
If we give this one to the Avs, will they ( and ESPN ) go away ?


By Justin on Friday, June 1, 2001 - 08:30 pm:

It was raining and the air was calm and I was standing knee-deep in pond-water when I caught my first trout with a fly. A watershed event. First Friday. I caught Mr. Trout by accident. Luckily for me, nobody was around as I cast my muddler minnow to the sky and water. New to this, I was doing it right and I was doing it wrong. When the line twisted around the back of the rod and wrapped around my wrist, and as the fly lay floating on the water, the trout hit. He hooked himself and after I untangled the line I reeled him in. A keeper. Later, the wind picked up and the small circular ripples stopped appearing on the previously smooth surface of the water. Trout fishing in the Keweenaw is a thoroughly enjoyable experience. I don't know how the line got so tangled.


By sky king on Friday, June 1, 2001 - 08:05 pm:

I meant to say Wilderness Bar in Lac La Belle


By sky king on Friday, June 1, 2001 - 08:03 pm:

The motel will be built at the site of the old widerness Bar by Rick Olsen


By Scott on Friday, June 1, 2001 - 07:23 pm:

Thanks Lynn, glad we don't have that problem down here this year...yet.
As for this motel in Lac La Belle, anyone else heard this??? Is it true ?? or just another rumor. I know how they can spread in the good ol' Keweenaw !!!
A few questions about this project:
Where's it going to be built ??
How many local people will it employ??
Will they have there own septic??
Are they going to buy used weight training equipment from a motel in Canada??
Are they going to use "temporary yurts" 'till the motel can be built??


By Lynn Torkelson (Ltorkelson) on Friday, June 1, 2001 - 01:57 pm:

Scott,

I used a metal scraper to get the nest off the tree with all the little caterpillars crawling around inside it and got rid of it. I also removed the loose caterpillars that I saw on the tree. I could have miised a few, but I had hoped that I'd minimized the damage. Foolish me.

Lots of trees in my area have long fibers hanging down with one tent caterpillar on each fiber, and they kind of swing in the wind. There are so many now that I just don't see much to do but ride it out. L


By Trapper John on Friday, June 1, 2001 - 01:54 pm:

I understand that a motel is in the works for Lac La Belle. A friend of mine was shown the blue prints which were done by a engineering firm from Houghton. He said that the person who will have this built works for the sheriff department and it is said to cost over $1,000,000 as it has a swiming pool, sauna, weight room and a conference room.


By Scott on Friday, June 1, 2001 - 01:41 pm:

Lynn:
You mentioned you "cleaned" them from your ash tree. How do you do this ?


By Forrest Sawyer on Friday, June 1, 2001 - 11:27 am:

Here we go again: Government interferes with family's freedom in Idaho. Why can't the damned government ever butt out of people's private affairs?


By Lynn Torkelson (Ltorkelson) on Friday, June 1, 2001 - 11:00 am:

moi,

I was wondering about those flies too. I hope so. When I'm out running, I notice that the road has more tent caterpillars crawling over it every day. We must have billions of them. I cleaned them from an Ash tree a few days ago, but now they're back more than ever.


By Humanist on Friday, June 1, 2001 - 09:30 am:

Split-shot,


Quote:

...where the myth is perpetuated: It's not whether you win or lose, it's how you play the game...


This aphorism lacks the scope, breadth, and character development of a traditional myth. You might call it a false statement though, if that is your opinion.

Teachers, even good teachers, will sometimes make false statements unintentionally. But the good teachers will have given their students the reasoning skills to identify and revise those statements as more information becomes available. And the good teachers will have done that intentionally.

Religions, although they do change slowly over time, do not lend themselves to constant revision based upon new information. Most religions don't even look kindly upon critical examinations of their tenets, using words like "heresy" to describe the results. This rejection of critical thinking works against the goals of a public educational system.

That said, I have no problem with people exercising their religions so long as they don't harm others while doing so. Evidently many people obtain comfort from their belief in the dominant myths of their particular culture, and it has been that way for over a million years. Perhaps we even encounter less anti-social behavior because many people here believe in a system of rewards and punishments after death. I say perhaps because many European and Asian countries have a much lower percentage of people who believe in a god than does the U.S., and yet their crime rates are also much lower than ours.

Your post alludes to some events, sporting events I think, that I'm not in a position to comment upon because I did not witness them myself. If they were conducted inappropriately, as you seem to suggest, I encourage you to elaborate on them. By raising yet another local issue, you might draw additional posters into the discussion who have personal knowledge of the events you describe.

By moi on Friday, June 1, 2001 - 09:11 am:

Enjoy the leaves while you can, they're going fast. Are these big flies w/red eyes the ones that eat the tent caterpillar eggs?


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