Tuesday, Election Day For messages about today's picture, see Cam Notes. This area is for other friendly conversation. Please read our Acceptable Use Policy.

Are animated graphics no longer allowed? What about positng small photos on this page like we used to on the other? Bold text? All CAPS? Italics? I see nothing in the AUP. Try as I might....I seem to get it wrong.

How does Rose rate a 5:56 am note when it just flashed at 7:11 LOL

Good morning

I posted this morning on yesterday's notes and it was put on this page due to the date and time. ( I assume )

Our apologies for accidentally deleting several of the graphics which were posted yesterday. There's a little glitch in the discussion software, and we'll try to get a fix so future uploads won't be lost.

hi to all,i've been reading all the talk on deer season and had to join in the fun.i too have been living and feeling the effects of another deer season.my saturday night fun was going for a ride looking for apples for the deer.{bad season for apples}sunday he hauled them in the bush,monday he sighted in his gun.{came home proud as a peacock showing his one shot bullseye!}today is i.g.a.'s hunters meat sale,etc...i know there is much more to come in the next two weeks.he seems to be ahead of schedule this year.maybe it has something to do with the hot flashes and mood swings we were blessed with this year....

So...which candidate's face did Puxatawney Phil see this morning when he came out of his hole?

Deer season is something that I look forward to all year long. There is just two weeks to go now! It will be a long two weeks. Fall is a great time of year in Michigan.

Dr. Nat from Nevada,
Thank you very much for the information on oil shale. I thought you were a college professor and you didn't disappoint me. Last question: With present technology, how much would a barrel, of crude have to be to make oil shale economical?

vote for family, security, morals, and ethics, vote for GEORGE W BUSH!!!

GET OUT AN VOTE, AND WHEN YOU DO, MAKE SURE YOU VOTE FOR DUBYA GOOOOO BUSH!!!!!!!

Joe Finn:
Honestly, I don't know. I know more about the science behind the oil shales than I do about the economics. I remember when I was younger it was said that the shales would become economic if the price for a barrel of oil rose to $20. It is far beyond that price now and the shales are still too expensive to use.
Economics is a bit out of my realm of expertise. I know from when I do quick calculations of the economics of a mining claim that there are many, many variables that need to be considered in addition to just the value of the resource. For example, even if oil doubles in price, if the permits, taxes, and labor costs of mining and processing the oil shale are still too high, it will not be used. So it is not as easy as just looking at the price of oil, although that is the most important factor.
I hope this rambling explanation made sense. I might be able to get a ballpark figure from one of my colleagues for what the price of oil needs to be to make the shales economic, but just remember that there are other variables controlling if we will ever use those resources or not.
Have a great day!

REGIME CHANGE BEGINS AT HOME
VOTE OUT BUSH - CHENEY - RUMSFELD - ASHCROFT

Go out and vote, whether it's Rep or Dem. It's our privilege as Americans :) Kerry/Edwards 2004!

It is so amazing to me that people can be so naive. Kerry for President? What the heck is wrong with you people, wake up! This is a man that can't decide to turn right or left, and you want him to lead the greatest country on earth. What people need to do, is get the facts and true stories. The fact is, these two candidates (Kerry/Edwards) are not even liked in their own states. Who knows them better............People from Michigan, Florida, etc.? Come on. Talk to people that have a story......soldiers, victims of 9/11, Iraqi women/children. These people are very thankful to George Bush, and are very proud to have him the President. What are you Kerry supporters unhappy with? If your so unhappy, give back the tax money to the government that the President gave you a relief on. Release Saddam Hussein, release the leaders of Al-Qaeda, ask France, Russia, and Germany for permission to put a lock on your door. I can go on and on, but I ask you one thing, what are you personally so unhappy with? Change is good, but not changes made from a person with empty promises and strings attached to him that control his every move. President Bush has stayed strong on his beliefs and decisions. You may not like his beliefs and decisions, but at least have someone that will not change his mind because he wants to be popular.

Mark,
I would gladly give back the chicken feed tax refund I got if Bush would stop spending deficit money on Iraq. All the billions he has spent so far, went directly to the national debt. Which means our grand children, greatgrand children will pay for this war. Not us!!! They will also be fighting this war, because Muslims never forget. Bush doesn't understand to this day that he stuck his hand into a hornets nest, and America will never be able to completely pull it out.

Hi Joesyopper,

You don't seem to be too brave. It used to be Americans stood up for their Country, especially in time of war. Now, we have a Country divided. I believe if the people stood behind Bush, and the other countries (France Germany, and Russia would have stood in solidarity, we could win this War against terrorism. Without their help, it will take longer. If we don't stand strong and get the upper hand, we will live like Israel, never knowing where a bomb will explode. Is that what you want? You are too naive to think this will all go away if we fall on our knees and just "feel" their pain. We have lost many lives to the Terrorists even before 9-11. Stand behind our troops, pray for them and our Country. God bless America!

hope you voted today for who you truly think is the right person. Hope nobody told you who to vote for. We all have the right to vote for who We want, not who the other guy wants.

Why is there so much chatter on this page to get out and vote? It should be on the page titled VOTE???

VOTE got closed down - most sensibly, IMHO. But I'm wondering, too. One exception, with the VOTE-discussion, was ok. But all that generally political, ha-hm, on this site really ... ok, I'll leave it at that.
Guess/hope it'll change again after today.

FogHorn, I beg to differ but happen to think this is the wrong place to question the braveness of strangers, or their ability to think. So, put in your mail-address if you have to be so direct - or mail me.

Now that "our" war with Iraq continues, kiss goodbye Medicare Medication benefits for Seniors, Health care for working families, "no child left behind", secure Social security benefits and welcome more threats of terrorism, more terrorist acts, soaring oil prices (enjoy heating your homes, folks in the U.P.) and social insecurity. And all you rich people out there in yooper land, enjoy your tax breaks at the expense of those less fortunate than yourself.

Hi Danbury,

What difference does it make who I am, my message should be the conscience of good people everywhere. Stayed up all night and woke to a new faith and hope for America. They chose the President who is the man who loves his country. We could say all what Kerry was, a traitor, unAmerican and a phoney. The people saw through him and voted wisely. It is time for the Democratic Party to clean house of all the trash left in it from the Clinton days. Get yourself a man who puts the Country first and the "party" the nuisance. You can't align yourself with the likes of the Hollywood crowd, the filth of the "Whoopi's" of this world, Michael Moore and the dregs of society and expect to win. We people still have good hearts. We haven't sunk to that trash level yet. So get to work, Democratic Party, and give us (Republicans) a run for our money. That is what Democracy is all about.

I agree that we are headed into some BIGGER problems with Bush, but... we will somehow survive, I hope.

Just an observation- I moved from the UP over 30 years ago to the East coast (married and followed)- anyway, I was constantly (and still am) struck by the 'life begins and ends with NYC' way of thinking out this way.
Sure the Today Show, Good Morning America, etc. report 'stuff' from all over, but it's made clear that it's definately about NYC and the Metro area.
WELL! Just take a look at who really speaks loudly in this country/who's in charge. Middle America spoke loud and clear. Kerry never saw what America really wanted to hear or didn't care and just kept hammering negative attacks.
Those of us with Middle America hearts want to hear ANSWERS and not "Yadda Yadda Yadda"! Sounded like a childish playground fight!
BOY! I sure hope Kerry and the Dems will take a HUGE lesson and open their eyes or fall flat again- trying!!

God has answered my prayers by helping to guide people in the re-election of George W. Bush, a great leader for this country!!!! Amen.............

It's not over yet people.

Kerry just conceded (to THE PRESIDENT).....FINALLY!!!!! I'm a HAPPY CAMPER!!!!

HAPPY CAMPER, TOO!

hey Bummed out,

It was cold this morning. We had a heavy frost, and I did enjoy heating my house. I grabbed an armload of wood and got a fire going in my wood burning furnace. I don't know about you but when its gets tough to heat my house I get tougher. I have 15 truckloads of wood cut and ready for burning, enough to get me well into next April or May.

If Kerry had won I would be saying, "Let's get behind Kerry and help him to make this world a better world" But since Bush won I'm saying the same thing about him. One man won't make this country a better place--it takes an entire nation to do that.

I have one question, now since John Kerry has conceded from the race, what will happen to him? Is he no longer a Senator or does he get his seat back? Has his seat already been filled and if so by who?

Nate:
You seem to have it a bit twisted around. Our government is supposed to represent the will of the people - all of the people... not the other way around. Bush seems to think that he is above question and anyone who dares to question him is unAmerican. Making the world a "better place" is exactly why I did not want to see Bush win again.

Bush's attitude and arrogance would absolutely sicken men like Thomas Jefferson and the rest of our founding fathers! Let's hope that Bush and people like you don't loose site of the fact that nearly 1/2 of the voters in the nation voted against Bush and his policies.

Building a coalition within America that represents the will and rights of all Americans (including those of us who don't approve of what he has done) will be one of the biggest responsibilites and challenges that face this administration. Let's see if President Bush is a good enough leader to do that.

Yeah Bush!!! He's not perfect, but we'll take him over Kerry anyday! ps Hi nate!

My faith in Americans is restored.
4 more years of stalling the rapid downward spiral of moral decline. People really do know what's important. Instead of gloating, I feel immense relief for the immediate future of our kids. Feel-good garbage is a front. Feel-right prevails!

Dave,

My point was this. Since our nation is so polarized we need to work as people to come to a common ground. I won't blindly submit to Bush's policies, nor will I blindly shun them just because he is Bush. I would have done the same for Kerry. If a majority, no matter how slim had elected Kerry I would have decided to give him a shot. I would not have completely opposed him, I would have looked for policies of his that I could get behind and did what I could to help him get them through.

I am neither Republican or Democrat. I try to believe in the leaders we elect, whatever party. In fact this is the first election I have ever voted Republican for President. So don't immediately group me as a republican.

I do believe that the government is supposed to serve the will of the people. In fact I believe Thomas Jefferson said that when it doesn't its time for the people to change their government. Unfortunatley our nation does not have a will because it is so divided.

The president does not run this country. We do. It is not only our responsibility to vote, it is also our responsiblity to voice our opinions to our elected officials through letters, phone calls, emails, etc. We also have to work with them wherever we can.

So before we can complain about the government not meeting our needs, we need to give a clear picture of what our needs are. I would rather work with you than against you. So rather than have 50% of the people saying we want one thing and 50% saying we want the opposite. Lets ALL open our eyes and see what we can do as a population to become a little less polarized.

One start would be to try and avoid using words that provoke emotion. Lets avoid "arrogance" and words like "absolutely sicken". Lets focus on solving the task at hand, not making it tougher to solve. The administration has a tremendous challenge in building a coalition within america, but in the end the responsibility lies with us.
remember--
"ask not what your country can do for you, ask what you can do for your country" (or something along those lines)--jfk

If Kerry had won I would be saying, "Let's get behind Kerry and help him to make this world a better world" But since Bush won I'm saying the same thing about him. One man won't make this country a better place--it takes an entire nation to do that.
Nate, You said a mouthful I agree totally.

John 18:36 Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight...but now is my kingdom not from hence.

Politics is nothing more then self-aggrandizement. Two men vying for the high-horse, shamelessly bashing one another:

Luke 14:7-11 And he put forth a parable to those which were bidden, when he marked how they chose out the chief rooms; saying unto them, when thou art bidden of any man to a wedding, sit not down in the highest room; lest a more honourable man than thou be bidden of him; and he that bade thee and him come and say to thee, Give this man place; and thou begin with shame to take the lowest room. But when thou art bidden, go and sit down in the lowest room; that when he that bade thee cometh, he may say unto thee, Friend, go up higher: then shalt thou have worship in the presence of them that sit at meat with thee. For whosoever exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted.

Beware of "American Pride": Proverbs 16:18 Pride goeth before destruction, and an haughty spirit before a fall.

May God forgive America

Nate:
It sounds like we agree on the need to try to unite America rather than divide it. But when our leadership refuses to even listen to opinions other than their own, then they no longer represent the people.

If you look up the definition of "arrogant" in Websters you will find it says: "having too high an opinion of ones own position or rights, contemptuous of others". I think that not being willing to even listen to any opinion other than their own seems to meet this definition... as does attempting to impose ones own beliefs on others... I am hopeful that we can change this.

Well Dave, looks like our leader listened to half the people...

Well that is better than not listening to any of us...

The Democrats are in a state of emergency and they risk become an irrelevant political party in the U.S. with the loss of yet another presidential election. Look at the past 40 years:

1964 Democrat Wins (Lyndon Johnson)
1976 Democrat Wins (Jimmy Carter)
1992 Democrat Wins (Bill Clinton)
1996 Democrat Wins (Bill Clinton)

As opposed to:

1968 Republican Wins (Nixon)
1972 Republican Wins (Nixon)
1980 Republican Wins (Reagan)
1984 Republican Wins (Reagan)
1988 Republican Wins (Bush Sr.)
2000 Republican Wins (Bush Jr)
2004 Republican Wins (Bush Jr)

This is in addition to the additions of Republican control of the Senate and the House and the certainty that Bush will get to appoint between 3 and 5 Supreme Court Justices this term that are LIFETIME appointments.

The Bi-Coastal elites just don't understand that the so called "Flyover" section of America is not as liberal as two coasts.

This would probably be a bad time to expect good service at any restaurant in France once they hear your accent. There is going to be a lot of whining from Europe about Bush in the next few weeks and they may be inclined to spit in your soup if you are sporting any telltale Yankee gear.

Dave-Colorado: You seem to be the sane voice here!

Hey John Kerry:

Why the long face? Tee Hee Hee!!!

Seriously, I was wondering if I could enroll in one of your windsurfing classes. Or we could go goose hunting and you'll pretend to shoot the goose and I can carry it past the P.E.T.A. people so they don't get mad at you.

And then we can set up 12 step rehab programs for gamblers, prostitutes and terrorists, since they present approximately the same level of nuisance to society.

Meat and Potatoes, the close election is over, Bush is going
to be
in office for four more years, and don't we all need to unify
whether we are dem's or rep's? To be gleeful over Kerry's
loss is mean-spirtited, and even Bush praised him today in
his speech. He also stressed unity... let's get rid of this
divisiveness... listen to your prez...please be nice to each
other and to the losing candidate. And it's not fair to put
the felony of terrorism in the same category of vices like
gambling and prostitution.

Mr. Foghorn: Perhaps you have been lax in your reading material. (Probably stacked in a corner somewhere - out of site...out of mind) Bush certainly has not done this country any favors. How about his policies on just a few of these:
Jobs disappearing, Poverty Increasing, Health Care Crisis, Education neglected, Environment under attack, Military spending out of control, and overspending in general. Try reading: www.usfacetoface.org and then use that foghorn on us.

Because this is such a nation of diversity, no President can ever represent the will of ALL the people. President Clinton certainly never represented my will or the will of many other Americans. If many voted on morality issues in 2004, how are we going to "unite" on those issues? I'm not willing to compromise on my core conservative moral beliefs, and others will never compromise on their core liberal beliefs. That's America. We're the melting pot. What a blessing it is to live in a country where we have the freedom to live and believe as we choose. Voting is definitely a privilege, and I said that when the "other guys" were in power, too.

Thanks to God that we have man of faith in the White House. A man not afraid to stand up for what is right and defend the unborn child, marriage, and morals. President Bush is a mature man who truly cares about his country. I believe he will do his best on all issues for the people of the United States.

Does anyone remember when Clinton left office, how he trashed the White House four years ago? The new president (Bush), played it down and did not make waves about it publicly. It just goes to show who is the REAL man here.

With all of that fog coming out of "Berkeley, Ca." we do need a fog-horn.......

Hey SanJose:

I think poverty increased with this illegal immigration and stressed out the health care system. Health care is the best in the world and no one is denied, maybe that is what is stressing out the system? Poverty, why you can't even give away your old clothes--watch TV--even in the slums they are dressed to the nines. I guess you might think poverty if you can't buy your recent M&M tape! They are poor because they make wrong choices. We have put more money into education and it comes down to more family responsibility. Of course the war is expensive, but let's quit griping and get it done. Both parties should curb spending--you can get a grant to put in private utilities--figure that out. So much money out there and so many grabbers whether you need it or not. Government agencies on every corner, for your every needs. We sure are spoiled. I guess the environment takes a beating as more and more people live and work, just makes common sense. All in all, we are a spoiled people, sooo spoiled that we cannot even bother with a War that could save this world of ours. I suppose you could say NAFTA and greed take away the jobs, and both parties like NAFTA Work with you Representatives in Washington keep bugging them, people are not participating. Here's to Bush and our Great Country--America.

I couldn't help but notice that prior to the election, not one word from the media or the candidates mentioned NAFTA. (Where have the jobs gone?)

Ross Perot opposed NAFTA in 1996 and his predictions have come true.

Perhaps we need a national movement for repeal of NAFTA to reunite our country.

Any thoughts and facts would be appreciated

Foghorn:
So you really don't think anyone is denied Health care??!! I can't believe that anyone is really THAT uniformed. Where have you been the past few years?? Do you read??

There is a huge percentage of Americans who do not have health care insurance and very few people can afford to pay for it out of pocket! You speak of building a better world and improving education. Well, guess what? Building a better world requires investment (money) and that requires taxes... You mention putting more money into education and the environment. Where does that money come from?? Taxes! Why couldn't we have used a portion of that huge budget surplus that we had when Bush entered office on education, or jobs, or the environment, or health care? Because Bush promised it to his rich cronies as tax relief!

It is really too bad that you people believe what Bush says - just because that is what you want to hear - and ignore what he is really doing.
"prolife" - more than 130 people were put to death by his government in Texas and he has killed tens of thousands of innocent women and babies in Iraq. So in reality he is only prolife when it helps him get elected.

Just look at his record (his actual record not what HE says he did) He has been so completely focused on getting Saddam (rather than the terrorists)that he has ignored all of our domestic issues, including taking steps that make America safer. Have you forgotten that Saddam had nothing to do with 911 or Al Qaeda?? There were no terrorists in Iraq. (at least there weren't before the war) There were no WMD. It was not necessary to go to war in Iraq to fight the war on terrorism.

War should only be used as a last resort - When ALL diplomatic avenues have been exhausted. This war was not necessary at the time that Bush pulled the trigger.

Think of how much good he could have done with that $241 BILLION (and counting) that he wasted on the war in Iraq. If that money had been invested on establishing hydrogen-based energy we wouldn't even need middle east oil.

The war in Iraq has not made us any safer from terrorist attacks from Al Qaeda... In fact we are most likely more at risk... And while Bush was focused on Saddam several other rogue nations have obtained nuclear weapons. I fear the next attack will come via a shipping container with a nuclear bomb in it that is floated into New York Harbor or San Francisco Bay or Puget Sound. They have done nothing to prevent this sort of attack. The best way to prevent this type of attack is to prevent the spread of nuclear technology... but while Bush publicly claimed that he increased the budget for securing nuclear materials in other countries, he actually cut that budget by $41-Million!

I am tired of this administration twisting the facts around to say what they think people want to hear. People need to look at the action and not listed to the empty words....

Moi - I agree with you. My concerns about how Americans view the big picture are somewhat relieved.
Foghorn's last post summed it up nicely. Most of the issues in the presidential race are the ones we've always had and will continue to work out. Now we have an Islamic fundamentalist cancer that is eating away at places all around the world. The "bloddy borders" are expanding around the world and we've got half the population voting for reasons like the environment and National Parks funding. "Spoiled" is an accurate description but I would have thrown in "shallow" or "shortsighted" as well.

Here is an interesting article by Thomas Friedman that a friend just forwarded to me. Whatever you believe it is worth reading. I’m afraid Mr. Friedman may correct in his wondering: Just what IS America??


Two Nations Under God
By THOMAS L. FRIEDMAN

Published: November 4, 2004
Well, as Grandma used to say, at least I still have my health. ...
I often begin writing columns by interviewing myself. I did that yesterday, asking myself this: Why didn't I feel totally depressed after George H. W. Bush defeated Michael Dukakis, or even when George W. Bush defeated Al Gore? Why did I wake up feeling deeply troubled yesterday?
Answer: whatever differences I felt with the elder Bush were over what was the right policy. There was much he ultimately did that I ended up admiring. And when George W. Bush was elected four years ago on a platform of compassionate conservatism, after running from the middle, I assumed the same would be true with him. (Wrong.) But what troubled me yesterday was my feeling that this election was tipped because of an outpouring of support for George Bush by people who don't just favor different policies than I do - they favor a whole different kind of America. We don't just disagree on what America should be doing; we disagree on what America is.
Is it a country that does not intrude into people's sexual preferences and the marriage unions they want to make? Is it a country that allows a woman to have control over her body? Is it a country where the line between church and state bequeathed to us by our Founding Fathers should be inviolate? Is it a country where religion doesn't trump science? And, most important, is it a country whose president mobilizes its deep moral energies to unite us - instead of dividing us from one another and from the world?
At one level this election was about nothing. None of the real problems facing the nation were really discussed. But at another level, without warning, it actually became about everything. Partly that happened because so many Supreme Court seats are at stake, and partly because Mr. Bush's base is pushing so hard to legislate social issues and extend the boundaries of religion that it felt as if we were rewriting the Constitution, not electing a president. I felt as if I registered to vote, but when I showed up the Constitutional Convention broke out.
The election results reaffirmed that. Despite an utterly incompetent war performance in Iraq and a stagnant economy, Mr. Bush held onto the same basic core of states that he won four years ago - as if nothing had happened. It seemed as if people were not voting on his performance. It seemed as if they were voting for what team they were on.
This was not an election. This was station identification. I'd bet anything that if the election ballots hadn't had the names Bush and Kerry on them but simply asked instead, "Do you watch Fox TV or read The New York Times?" the Electoral College would have broken the exact same way.
My problem with the Christian fundamentalists supporting Mr. Bush is not their spiritual energy or the fact that I am of a different faith. It is the way in which he and they have used that religious energy to promote divisions and intolerance at home and abroad. I respect that moral energy, but wish that Democrats could find a way to tap it for different ends.
"The Democrats have ceded to Republicans a monopoly on the moral and spiritual sources of American politics," noted the Harvard University political theorist Michael J. Sandel. "They will not recover as a party until they again have candidates who can speak to those moral and spiritual yearnings - but turn them to progressive purposes in domestic policy and foreign affairs."
I've always had a simple motto when it comes to politics: Never put yourself in a position where your party wins only if your country fails. This column will absolutely not be rooting for George Bush to fail so Democrats can make a comeback. If the Democrats make a comeback, it must not be by default, because the country has lapsed into a total mess, but because they have nominated a candidate who can win with a positive message that connects with America's heartland.
Meanwhile, there is a lot of talk that Mr. Bush has a mandate for his far right policies. Yes, he does have a mandate, but he also has a date - a date with history. If Mr. Bush can salvage the war in Iraq, forge a solution for dealing with our entitlements crisis - which can be done only with a bipartisan approach and a more sane fiscal policy - upgrade America's competitiveness, prevent Iran from going nuclear and produce a solution for our energy crunch, history will say that he used his mandate to lead to great effect. If he pushes for still more tax cuts and fails to solve our real problems, his date with history will be a very unpleasant one - no matter what mandate he has.

Dave,
We've all heard your list of things you expect the government to do for you. We've seen your desire to turn away from global dangers and to sit on the power we attained on the backs of thousands of brave veterans all so we can even things out and make sure you have all the comforts. You live in a land where there's more opportunity for each citizen than any other nation in the world. We've heard your ranting and we reject it.
And no, I'm not rich. What's best for the future of my country is what drives my ideology, not how much money my neighbor has.

Patrick:
You are so wrong I don't even know where to begin. My politics tend more toward the Republican side than the Democrats with a few key exceptions. I believe very strongly in the freedoms provided in Consitution and the premise that "All men (and women) were created equal." I believe that in America everyone has the right to the pursuit of happiness. This includes having healthy, meaningful relationships with any person of thier choosing. (and no, I'm not gay, but I do have gay friends) I am a scientist and I believe in science, and education and learning as we live. I do not believe in intolerance, hatred or condemnation and will continue to speak out against those who engage in those behaviors or attempt to impose their views on others.

Gentlemen, gentlemen (and I hope I'm not using the term loosely):

Let's keep it civil!

I'm sure that the political discussion, although always a risky venture, is welcome here, but some terms are pushing the limits of Pasty Cam's Acceptable Use Policy (Personal attacks, offensive language or inflammatory remarks are not welcome.)

George has a huge job to do and needs another 4 years just to clean things up. Oh I know, I know....times are always better when the dems are in office. That's what the old timers tell me anyway. It is so nice to now have someone as president who I feel respect and admiration for. For the sake of our future and that of our children, we must set some moral standards. Gay "marriage"???!!! Read your Bibles, it's wrong any way you look at it. I for one am thoroughly disgusted with the fact that time and money are wasted even discussing such a this idea. I can hardly believe that I actually had to vote on such an idea. Man and woman were specifically made for each other. Next people will be fighting to "marry" their pets! I am not rich (with $ that is) but I still like the Republican party and I am not a prude. I do know right from wrong and I have a very strong set of morals by which I live. I'm sure my statements here will bring up all kinds of remarks but that is just my "2 cents". Amen.

My my Mr. Foghorn: Did you read www.facetoface.org. I didn't think so. While you prefer to sit and watch TV, I prefer to get out and see what is happening on our streets. Surely, you honestly do not believe that drivel. I have seen poverty, they are not dressed to the nines. The only nines they have is probably the nine cents in their pocket. I donate heavily to financial support to the poor and homeless. What do you do? Ah yes, you watch TV.! What slums have you seen and visited, and what's with the M&M tape? I have taken some of them in my home, cleaned them up, put money in their pockets, and sent them on their way to look for work. Sometimes they make the best choices offered them. What about the family that is bordering on the edge, and their home burns down? What then Mr. Foghorn? Ah yes, you sit and watch TV. Yes, a lot of money goes to education. My taxes prove that. Teachers these days are begging for more and more help in volunteer services. When I was in school it was teacher and student, and I got the best education to be offered. So, what's with the teachers that they can't do the job without outside help. What were they trained for. And where is all this money going?
We did not need to go to war in Iraq. Poor choice on Bush's part.
As far as these grants are concerd...it sounds to me like you applied for and used all of them. Obviously, you know how to play the system. You are spoiled...not I. I came from a poor family. I worked and went to night school for a better education. I never applied for a grant in my life, though there were times when I didn't have two nickels to rub together. At my home, I was taught Respect and Pride in myself. Something I believe you have lost.
Please read what Bush favors on our environment...it's enough to make you sick...literally. SPOILED you say. Who started this war in Iraq? Bush did! My gosh, read what you just wrote, and again I give you more reading material.
On Safe Water. You know about the fish that are caught in the water their. The fish have all kinds of ulcers. This should be a concern to you. http://www.epa.gov/safewater/ars/prop_techs.html or http://www.orgenic consumers.org/corp/arsenic.cfm or how about the Superfund.....http://www.sierrachlb.org/toxics/superfund/ and then we have Air Quality at http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A2540-2003Oct22.html What about those little creeks of water that are posted Toxic or Poisenous that I saw just as you are leaving Laurium toward Lake Linden...off the beaten path. I don't see anyone concerned about them. Yet it seems to be my understanding that's OK by you. What about the kids that play around them. Before you spout any more drivel please read the articles, if you had there would be no need for your foghorn.

Arrogance was mentioned above. Talk about arrogance! San Jose presumes someone who disagrees with her is uneducated, watches t.v. only for all his information, and doesn't read? Maybe Mr. Foghorn doesn't care to get his information from the website of a non-profit organization created to help the United Nations Population Fund (facetoface.org) which lists Malcom X as a contributor!

You all better start pulling together before we are soooo divided, the enemy comes in the back door and takes over. It could happen! Don't be stupid!

A lot of soap boxes out there....... What a great country!!!!!!

B the cute one
I could've guessed even if you hadn't said it yourself. Glad you chipped away and finished Community College and can now speak as an expert and intellectual. I don't think you were exposed to a lot educated discourse growing up. Am I right? Maybe you were weary from helping the homeless all day but you sure can recite the disgruntled, liberal rants that your adjunct professor at night school passed on to you.
That you read seems to please your ego. You're now a college grad AND you READ! Super.
You pass on a handful of websites that form the base of your views. Weak.
Scary thing is how many there are out there like you who decided after so many years, to get a degree and now shout at the rest of us who, I'd bet, are a lot more knowledgeable and wise than you'd think.
Sorry, but you guys just make my blood boil. Guess I'll looke at some pictures of trees and lakes.

Love your website. Never posted before in the five years I've followed it (every day, just about). I've posted just three times in that time period, but I think I'll stick with looking at the pictures as I noticed you edit my posts (just slightly, which is just as disappointing somehow).
By the way, the singular "handful" in my last should have matched the verb "forms" with an S at the end. You're slipping, editing dep.

Thanks for the Love! ;-) If you'd like to email me at gallery@pasty.com, I'd be happy to explain why the slight editing was done. As for your handful sentence, that one wasn't touched, it's posted above just the way you originally typed it! We don't edit punctuation, grammar, spelling, etc., since we have enough trouble making sure our own is correct!! :-)

Patrick:
Are you so insecure in your self that you must sling insults and sarcasim at Bthecute1? or for that matter, anyone else who has a different opinion from yours? One with true wisdom would respect the rights of others to express their views and perhaps even listen to what they have to say... who knows, you might actually learn something...

As Thomas Friedman indicated in his article (above) This election was about much more than simply electing a president. It seems that we Americans are debating and deciding what America IS and what we will try to make it. Do we intend to move forward into enlightenment or step backwards into the dark ages?

George Fan: The Christian Bible is a wonderful set of tales and stories about how people can live in harmony.... Very much like the Tora is to Judaism and the Koran is to Islam. It is just too bad that so many people who quote scripture seem so intolerant and judgemental of anyone who has different beliefs. The bible stories I remember told us that Jesus was loving, non-judgemental, compassionate, forgiving and inclusive. Do you believe that you know better than Jesus? Perhaps we all should try to emulate His example a bit more, rather than judge and condem. But either way, I'm sure you will be forgiven...

Dave-

The Bible does tell how Jesus was loving, kind and compassionate. But it also tells of his judgement, and righteous anger. Instead of "remembering" maybe you should try reading it now and see for yourself. He is a Holy God who has the right to be both kind and judgemental. People who believe the Bible believe Gods ways are the RIGHT ways, but its unfortunate that people who don't know much about them label us as "Intolerant". If you lable us that way, then you must see God that way.

I am happy for you in that you have found the Christian Bible to be a guide to help you live a wholesome life, but as I mentioned above, the Christian Bible is not the only such guide. There are other beliefs and religions that equally valid. And while I embrace the "christian principles" (ie golden rule) that all major religions teach, I do not accept fundamentalist extremist interpretations of any of the major religions.

When I was about 10 or 12 years old I realized that some of the stories in the Bible, beginning in Genesis, simply could not have happened in the way the the stories were written. The people who wrote those stories did the best they could to explain our world without the benefit of the science we have available today.

My interpretation of the world and the universe is based in science... Without science we would still be living in the dark ages without medicine, energy, computers, automobiles, or any of the common technological advances we enjoy in our lives.

I think religion provides spiritual guidance for us, for example how we can be good people and treat others with kindness, but I strongly believe that America's future, our strength and our safety are based in science and technology.

I fear that there are some people who would turn away from science and teach only faith based beliefs to the exclusion of science. If that happens, then America will lose our position as a world leader and step back into a secondary role in the world, albiet a self-rightous one...

To Love My Bible: Thank you. To Dave: I'll pray for you and many others like you. I am not judging, I just know right from wrong. Yes science is wonderful and I am very thankful for todays technology. Jesus will come to judge us. We will have to answer for all of our doings here on earth. The end of the world cannot happen until all people on all the ends of the earth have been told about Jesus and his teachings. The way technology is today and the communication abilities we have, I believe it will be sooner than we realize. I could go on and on, all I know is I am ready and not afraid. I wish the same for you.

Dave-
You seem to me to be a very smart person. And I really mean that. I think you are way smarter than I am, and I could never beat you in a debate. But all the smarts and education in the world will hold no water when we stand before God and answer to Him one day. Before I became a Christian I would probably have agreed whole heartedly with you on many issues, but not anymore. I can't explain to you what you cannot see for yourself, but any "born again" christian will know what I am talking about when I say He turns darkness into light.

Still:
I try to follow christian principles in my life because that is the kind of person I hope to be and try as I do I fail to be the person I aspire to be a lot. I attend church because I find it is a good place to meditate and be reminded of how to live in harmony with others. But I think the greatest benefit of organized religion is in the form of all the support our church provides to needy people in our community in the form of food and clothing donations, shelter for homeless, youth programs and habitat for humanity. And I'm not saying that you are like this, but I just don't understand how some people who claim to be "christians" can be so intolerant and judgemental of others. I apologize to anyone who takes offense to those words, but if hearing them causes you to become angry, then perhaps it is because your conscience knows that you are guilty of this... and it is wrong!

Dave, put the soapbox away and try to have a good relaxing weekend. Your fingers must be in pain from your long disertations.....

cj...
thanks, I will... and my fingers are very strong and they are just getting started...

Christian or non Christian, anytime we disagree with anyone else's opinion that is different from what we strongly believe in can be seen as intolerant.

Its a circle, you're intolerant of of intolerance. :)

Pat, Florida
I have one comment. We agree to disagree.
As to your reference to college. That would be the Detroit Institute of Technology, University of California and am now attending San Jose State University.

Well, well, well! Aren't we all frisky today. And I thought things would calm down after Tuesday. Silly me. Dave (C.?), I thought you would have blown an artery by now...and I just have to ask you...did you attend Cal Hi class of '68?? Would love to know where you live here in this amazing state of CO. But alas, my heart will always be in the UP.

I must comment on your views of God's Word. Don't trifle with it. He is the Creator of this universe who loves each of us and sent His Son to die on the cross for our sins (see The Passion of the Christ). As you put it, Christ should be our example. Since that is true, it isn't about being intolerant. It is taking God at His word. He says murder is a sin, as is envy and taking His name in vain etc. In other words, none of us is perfect. We are all in need of God's gift of His Son's death in our behalf. I can't begin to understand the cost of the price Christ paid. The Bible is the living Word of God. I take Him by faith and how He changes lives and hearts. Science has some of it correct...so much wrong. So many theories and they should be presented that way. Instead institutions continue to deny both sides from being given to our students. God created this earth and each of us in it. I did not evolve from an ape. You can't claim part of the Bible and make up the rest yourself. If you were honestly a seeker of TRUTH you would study the Bible from cover to cover and keep it along side your other textbooks. If you say other books are also good tales as well...then you'd better toss out God's Word the Bible because HE says "I am the way, the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father but by me" or John 3:16 "For God sooooo loved the world the He gave us His only Son, that whoever believes in him will not perish but have eternal life..v.17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. My point...and I have one...really...we can't pick and choose what we want to believe regarding the Bible. The claims of Christ are so extraordinary that we have to blieve by faith or chuck it because he would have been a lunatic to make such claims. And I personally don't stake my eternity on lunatics but the loving God who created me with freedom to choose.

By the way, were you ever on the debate team...I know you were always yakking!? Would love to be in touch with you if you are the Cal Hi grad I went to school with.

Twin B, 1968 Calumet High Grad!!!!

Hi Fellow Americans:

I think it is good to debate--no one has all the answers and to believe in the Bible is to have hope and faith. I think that is what the happy person grabs onto each day and enjoys it. We all tend to be too negative, although you Democrats sure make it a little harder on yourselves. Why don't you see the good in your country too and have a little hope? Just because you have had some bad years with Clinton and Gang, doesn't mean you can't come back, get your heads on straight and put your Country ahead of the Party. We are all in this together. Do you not understand that moral values still are cherished in this Country? You aligned yourselves with the Whoopie - Moore crowd; no human being want to wallow in dirt, we strive for something brighter. Give Bush a break, he picked up on Clinton's down economy and an attack on New York City blew in his face. Would you take a chance and do nothing? He did the only thing, to fight for his country and protect us. Who knows how long this war will take? If we have no Country, what good is health care and on the social graces mean to us. My gosh, what is there to be bitter about, we live in a free country--colleges for learning--open to all, freedom of religion, cars, television, holidays, you name it. Why gripe--what can you complain about? We have to have laws to protect ourselves. Who are you to judge the Bible? If you have faith, you believe it is all true. And, it is that faith that put joy in the hearts and hope to put smiles on our faces. God Bless America

I can't get over the complacency among the evangelicals
here. Shame on you for thinking that Christianity should be
the dominant religion on this planet.

TwinB:
No, I did not attend Cal high '68, however, I did study the Bible, and I did see the passion of the Christ. And frankly, after seeing the enactment of what Christ endured on the cross, I can't believe more Catholics aren't completely outraged at what the Church did to cover-up the child molestations by priests! SHAME!! They should fire the Pope and all Church leaders involved with that mess! but that is another matter...

I agree with you in that that we did not evolve from an ape. The truth is both apes and Homo sapiens evolved from a common ancestor that lived several million years ago.

You make a very interesting point regarding how some people decide which parts of the Bible they will believe and follow. You also state that murder is a sin. The actual WORD says "Thou shalt not kill". Well, if killing another human is a sin, then how do you reconcile the killing of tens of thousands of innocent Iraqi women and babies and more than 130 criminals in Texas? I guess one would have to split hairs on what constitutes killing... or else you add fine print to the Commandment that says: "well, no killing unless they do not agree with your religious beliefs".

The same logic you use above (ie not choosing what part of the Bible you believe) can be applied to science. If you accept that the scientific process is valid and you believe in medicine, mathematics and physics, then you must accept that the universe and the human race are far older than the Bible claims, and that evolution is also a fact. This is no longer a "theory"... it is the way things are... but that doesn't mean that the rest of the teachings in Bible are wrong! We can still believe in the "treat others the way you want to be treated" and "love thy neighbor" teachings of the Bible, Torah and Koran. You also seem to suggest that of those three books only the Bible is "Gods word"? Hmmm, sounds a bit sketchy to me, maybe you should debate that point with some fundamental Islamic or Hassidic Jew.

This is not the Dark Ages, there is hope in truth and facts... The path to enlightenment lies in knowledge... Have a great weekend!

The God concept always confuses me. I have thought long and hard on the existence of a Supreme Being and there are too many variables. If you start with Zarathustra and follow religion and prophets down through history, Christianity seems to borrow the popular bits from many cultures to form a highbred user-friendly answer to all of life’s moral and spiritual questions.
Far be it form me to tell anyone they are wrong. Each and every one of us should hope for relief from such a cruel world. I am only searching for an answer, and I personally need a better understanding than provided by one book that has different meaning depending on who interprets that meaning.
…But when I go over my interpretation I come to conclusions like these
adj. omnipotent all-powerful
adj. omniscient all-knowing
These are adjectives often applied to the christian god - he is all-powerful, unlimited in his ability, and knows all that can be known. We are often told that God knows all things throughout the entirety of time and space. Everything that can be known, he knows. Everything in the past, present and future is known to God. Fair enough. I wouldn't expect anything less from the Creator Of The Universe.
There's just one small problem...
Free Will. Religion teaches that God gave us free will, so that we may make our own decisions, decide our own futures, with no coercion from God. If we do good things or bad things it is entirely down to us, God just sits back and watches over us.
This makes no sense at all.
If God knows all things throughout time (as he must, if he is omniscient), then he knows every action I perform, every decision I make throughout my life, before I have done them. If God knows exactly what I am going to do on 10th July, 2030, then how can I do anything other than that?
God, however, being the Creator, had prior knowledge of your actions at the time of the Creation, billions of years ago. He set the universe in motion, knowing all that would happen throughout time
As an example, let's say you are walking down a corridor:
At the end of the corridor are two identical doors. Does God know which door you will take? If he does, is it at all possible for you to take the other door? You have no choice in the matter, you have no free will.
If God does not know exactly which door you will take, then he quite simply is not omniscient.
Another example:
Does God know what I am going to eat for breakfast tomorrow?
I'll make it easy for Him : it could be either toast, cereal, porridge or nothing. Four options. Is it possible that God, who is infinitely powerful, in all places at once, having knowledge of all things, who created the space/time universe, who is utterly un-restrained by any physical laws and exists outside the space/time universe, does not know what I'm going to eat for breakfast in the morning?
How ridiculous is that? This omnipotent mega-being cannot accurately look 24 hours into my future? Think about it.

Payer to me, this seems to be a form of meditation - a chance to take a break from the day's chores and calm down, gathering your thoughts, sorting out your feelings, deciding what path to take to overcome some problem. Also, it seems quite significant that people always say they talk to God - God never seems to initiate the conversation (have you ever heard "Oh, you'll have to excuse me, God wants to tell me something. I'll call back in a minute.").
If taken as something more than personal meditation, the most obvious criticism of this type of prayer is - what's the point? God, being omniscient and omnipresent knows what you are feeling every second of the day anyway, probably better than you do. He knows all your problems, concerns and desires before you do. Why should you bother to spell them out to him? It could even be argued that your problems are a direct result of god's will - part of his Divine Purpose for you, to test your faith or build your character. Surely, to question that purpose is almost blasphemy?

Now I may be way off base, and I hope I have not offended anybody. I would respectfully hear what others might have to say. I applaud Pasty Central for creating a space in their world to share discussion on politics, religion, and simple pleasures like what a porcupine thinks when he’s out for a walk.
I believe we can benefit from civil communication. Respect and tolerate each opinion expressed. Learn something new about the world around us.
Thanks.

ra...I sure don't have all the answers, but one answer to the free will question might be that if God made us all worship him what's the point? Is the love of someone "forced" to love you really worth having? With free will we have that choice...which make our love of Him precious to Him. Enjoy such discussions as yours as there are lots of questions and no rancor or YOU MUST BELEIVE THIS WAY statements.

I certainly have to agree with Susan, Fl's observation:
"Enjoy such discussions as yours as there are lots of questions and no rancor or YOU MUST BELEIVE THIS WAY statements."

I have always held that us mere mortals "looking at God" is as though we were looking toward the center of a diamond, each person or sect clinging to a different facet, most of which facets bear imperfections.

The tedious exhortations and scoldings of all of the self-appointed preachers, on the other hand, could quickly turn this section into a carbon copy of the "Letters to the Editor" section of the Gazette.

T'would be ever so considerate if those folks could reserve such rantings for their church or similar meetings of "kindred spirits", and not oblige the rest of the world to endure it. Hmmm, maybe we need a seperate "Pulpit" thread in "What's UP", for such rants. Of course then we'd need a separate "pulpit" to encapsulate each denomination, sect, cult or whatever.

Hi:

To you aetheists, agnostics, superior minds==Why do you spend your time denegrating a God that you believe is non-existing. If there is no God, why waste your time? Is that all you have to do? You must live lives in fear and no-hope. Why don't you go out and enjoy the world that God created and at least be happy! If you believe you rolled off of some rock into existence, go out and look at the lakeshore, you may meet a friend rolling in. Why do you pick on Christianity? Is it threatening? Any good answers out there? Really what does Christianity have to do with you and how does it upset your lives? Please answer. Thanks.

Simple: It's not Christianity. It's not religion.
It's the so-called christians who believe they have the right to tell everybody what's right or wrong, and what to do or not to do. Not their business to deny anyone of any believe any right. They keep saying God will judge. For a believe that contains the virtue of humility, SOME feel surprisingly compelled to deal out judgement.

But that's not what I came to tell you about.
Why should we back up the US in attacking a country that hasn't attacked you itself?
The US got kicked in the (AUP-violation) on 9/11 and reacted in good ole conservative right wing manner - by lashing out and hitting upon the first scapegoat they could make a cause against (a really weak one to boot). No consideration, just plain ole revenge plus several other reasons.
there were the final battles of two global wars in this country, millions and millions killed (among them more than enough GI's) and whole landscapes burnt and ravaged. You had no war in the last 150 yrs on your own grounds except perhaps Pearl Harbour. You don't know what you're talking about.
There is a difference between standing up and lashing out, and more often than not it requires more strength to stay calm and work on a problem than simply taking a gun and blowing someone's head of.
President Bush claims to be a christian. While I am not christian enough to be considered as such by any maior church, I feel I am christian enough to question the christianity, not to mention the morals and values from somebody who believes in killing for vengeance, in war, in weapons designed to kill people and conquer and/or destroy whole countries. If that's what your conscience tells you is right, I can't help but thinking you've got some very interesting values.
And now I'm going out and enjoy my life without denigrating anybody. Sitting on a mountain top in NH, I felt closer to whatever deity there is than after reading posts speaking of God on these sites.
Of course, although I do not care for your identity, y'all are still free to mail me! :)

Sidenote: "But that's what I came to tell you about": that's a quote. Arlo Guthrie.

ra:
That was a very well written piece and your discussion of the paradox between omniscience vs free will is absolutely right on. Both cannot exist at once...

And Foghorn: The thing is it really doesn't matter how you define "God" or even if there is a "God" as defined by organized religions. The point is - regardless of whether or not a God exists - many of us believe that every person has a moral responsibility to treat others with respect, compassion, and kindness and to try to help those who are less fortunate. I am not speaking out against christianity at all. I have said that I try to incorporate "christian values" into my everyday life. The problem as I see it, is religious fundamentalism. I speak against those individuals of any religion who would try to impose there belief system on others through legislation, intimidation or out and out terrorism. If you happen to find yourself in this category, then we are clearly at opposite ends of this arguement.

ra: Thanks for taking the time to put your thoughts down... very good insight...

Danbury:
I always enjoy your posts. Once again you have provide an interesting perspective. Thanks...

You're welcome. But I apologize for the "so-called christians" part. That was improper.
Same applies to all who fulfill the criteria, christian or not.
ra: Disagree. Only because the result of a decision is known to a party not involved does not influence your choice. Just to one it is known aforehand what you'll choose. You might as well have choosen the other option - but that would of course have been known as well.
However, while I do not believe like those who wrote about their believes here before, I feel I know one thing: if you want to find God, you have to search more with feelings and instinct than sheer rational logic. Applying logic to something as elaborate as concepts of deity will just fry your brains.
Does it really matter, anyhow? Either way, one has to make his/her choices and accept the consequences.
anthropologist: that's not what they think, it's what they believe in, which is theirs to choose. Of course, seems like some should remember the difference.
Dave: while I'm more inclined to agree, there's one small issue I have with the science crowd which is the fatal believe that science contains the answer to any question. This is especially not so when it's the wrong question that is examined.
Logically, I've come to the conclusion that this world is in need of a drastic reduction of human population. But I won't pull the trigger (even if I could) because I feel it would be wrong to kill billions of people.
We're both: rational and irrational, feeling and thinking, one being basis/control for the other.
It is not a question of light and dark. Denying either is denying reality.

Oops, wrong button. Sorry. Well, will leave it at that.

Dave: on a spontaneous urge, I'm curious as to who you are and what you do. No obtrusiveness intended, just curious.

Since religion seems to be the topic here, I'd like to note that
there are three websites now for former members of the Old
Apostolic Lutheran Church (which was the subject of some
heated debate here not so long ago).
http://extoots.blogspot.com
http://leftheoalc.blogspot.com
http://oldapostoliclutheran.com

Danbury and Dave, keep conversating, as GWB would say. I'm
enjoying it immensely. Fundamentalism of all kinds is the
antithesis of reason and must be resisted.

Ok, unless someone's busy pulling legs here, I'd love to, but honestly, this is no chatroom.
And who's ... ok, got it. A little early in the morning here. Good night!

Mary and Charlie...you deserve an award for tolerating all this ranting and raving! I would just be sitting in your chair hitting DELETE!!!! Somehow people just don't get the picture that the United States is in big trouble and we need to begin to work together and not spend our time attacking each other. So THREE CHEERS for Mary and Charlie! May you live long and not break out in nervous hives from all the nonsense!

TwinB, I can hear Pastor Hart's voice in your words! Music to my ears...

I like the idea of feelings over logic. Grandpa advice was always go with you gut. Anyway logic is taking another four years off. Thanks danbury.

Sunday, a day of peace and quiet...... See you all in Church............... Have a good one..

So we should sit back, be tolerant, and accept foreigners coming in to blow up our buildings? Unreal, the way some feel. They hit us, we hit them back twice as hard. How do you think we're a superpower and they're not?!! The other option is to negotiate, sign peace treaties, impose sanctions, etc. and they'll blow us up anyhow. These people are programmed from infancy to hate America, and they live to die. You can't reason with that mentality. You can only prevent them from doing it.
Sorry, the truth hurts and it's costly. But what a sacrifice our soldiers do for us to be able to sit here and freely opine! Heroes, all. They love our country with a depth that we can only hope to understand.
GO ahead, say that the Al Quaeda loves their country and are called heroes too. They're animals. We are fighting for freedom. They're brainwashed to think they're pleasing God. A huge difference.

Good Morning Danbury!
In response to you question... I was born in Michigan, went to college in Marquette during the last half of the 1970's, then moved to Colorado in 1981. I am an environmental scientist and a partner in a company that works for the oil and gas industry (acquisitions, permitting, spill clean up). My job has taken me all across the country, but most of our work is in the Rocky Mountain region/Great plains and Texas. So, if I may ask, what do you do?

Moi:
Iraq had nothing to do with 911 or the Taliban or Al Qaeda, but our president justified the war against Iraq based on the fabricated claim that they had WMD. Then, after it was proven that Iraq didn't actually have any WMD, or even the ability to produce WMD, this administration has tried to justify the war in Iraq as a "pre-emptive strike" claiming that the Iraqis MIGHT have someday done something to help terrorists.

Well, I'm sorry but that approach seems very flawed to me and I think it is very dangerous to try to justify the position we have chosen in Iraq. Basically, we are saying that we will go to war against anybody who MIGHT pose a threat to us or MIGHT support someone who MIGHT someday commit an act of terrorism or some other crime.

The problem with that position is the collective governments of the world have an established a legal process for addressing POTENTIAL threats to world peace and human rights and our war against Iraq is in violation of that process. And the real problem is - our war against Iraq has sentenced tens of thousands of innocent Iraqi women and children to DEATH - all because, as we claim, someone in their country MIGHT have done something at some point in the future that could have harmed us. To me, a death sentence to an Iraqi child based on the evidence seems just a bit harsh in this case...

What if our government decided that our domestic laws should be enforced based on that same "potential-threat" philosophy? Well MOI, you MIGHT someday break a law or do something that MIGHT be construed by some as conspiratorial or un-American, so perhaps Moi, you should be arrested and put to death based on the evidence against you...

You say "Iraq had nothing to do with 911 or the Taliban or Al Qaeda"
So why does Bin Ladin mention Iraq and Al Quaeda in the same defensive rantings? Do you honestly think they're NOT connected? And do you also think that the liberal press has all the classified information? We only know what they report, which is only one side of the story.
Sorry, but I have much more faith in our government, and ours now is much more effective than a uselessly-negotioating Kerry would have been.

Good evening, Dave.
You're welcome.
I'm attending unversity, did a stint at architecture years ago, but now forestry and environmental sciences. Well, mostly forestry, the latter was added last year due to budget cuts, and some departments were united. I'll be finished in another 1 1/2 years, and then there's a big question mark ...

Moi:
Bin Laden mentions Iraq NOW because it is the latest and most egregious example of American policies that have killed tens (if not hundreds)of thousands of Arabic-speaking citizens. It looks to me that the situation in Iraq has the potential to become the "Alamo" of the Islamic/Arab world against America. So in that regard, I see our actions in Iraq and the continued Arab hatred of America may very well be "connected" as you say...

Moi, my opinions do not come solely from what I read in the news, regardless as to whether the information was reported in the New York Times or on Fox News. I also review the proceedings of the U.S. Senate and Department of Defense web pages where they provide text of the actual discussions that occurred on the floor of the Senate back in 1991 when Paul Wolfowitz recommended going to war against in Iraq as a cornerstone of United States policy for the middle east in the new millenium. Now perhaps this policy is sound, I do not have access to all of the information upon which this policy was developed. However, I do know that it makes me very uncomfortable to find out that I have been lied to by my government.

Cheney said repeatedly that they had irrefutable evidence that Iraq had WMD. There were no WMD, so obviously the evidence was not irrefutable. The way I see it Cheney lied. Then, during the debates Cheney flat out denied that Haliburton was fined for any wrong-doing that occurred while he was the president of Haliburton. That turned out to be a bald-faced lie too. I looked it up... Halliburton was fined more that $7 Million for things that happened while Cheney was thier president.

Once an individual has lied about one thing I begin to wonder what other lies has they have told. Cheney lies so often and so smoothly it seems to me that he no longer knows the difference between truth and lies or right from wrong. I am certain that I do not want to entrust the future of America with someone whom I do not trust.

Danbury:
Good luck at University and please stay in touch... It is good to hear how academic types in Europe view this mess... I must admit there are times I cringe when I hear some of the views expressed by my fellow Americans... sometimes it is even a bit embarassing...
good evening..

I'm embarrased of liberals too. All feelings, no common sense.

Thanks, Dave. But I hope you understand that I won't be posting a running commentary on US and international politics - definitely not the right place, don't you think? Albeit this siding surprisingly has not yet been closed, but still - while I do not agree with some of the more picture-oriented pasty.cammers, I agree with those who don't think this is the right place for dialogue. Exceptions happen, obviously.
But I'll stay on site, so even when not posting, I'll be there, piping up when (I deem) necessary and acceptable.
Hang in there. Four more years to come up with an alternative!

MOI:LOL. Seems we think precisely the same about each other. :)
Except I'm not embarrassed, I feel (!) sorry.
(For the record: I'm pretty sure I'd qualify as liberal as far as you're concerned.)

Pat of Florida and Mr. Foghorn:
To conclude; I have studied Environmental Sciences as that was my business, also studied Phycology and Business Law. So I believe that I know of what I speak.
Mr. danbury: Surely you don't want your legs pulled, I am very good at that too.

WOW,,, three "environmental scientist's" on this site....... How did we get so lucky????

Danbury:
Yeah, you're pretty sorry.........
Kidding.
You're free to have your opinions too.

You won't believe it, Frank, but we enjoy pictures of beautiful environment, too! :)