• Archive - Nov 07 December 1 - 01:49 pm

Now snowman, the whole purpose of your "peace conference" post was to ridicule.........

Give others freedom to be themselves. Appreciate the differences between their ways and yours.

Don't waste your time and energy on him. He's just not worth it.

That's exactly right k j. It's what he wants so we should just ignore him.

Sigh, I see that. I tried.

Let the comments fly; after all this is the political page. Let's just be somewhat respectful of other's opinions. After having said that I wish I had something to say!!! to get an argument going.
Must be too early in the morning for me. I am patiently waiting for the snow storm to arrive here in NE Wisconsin.

well, I don't agree with the mideast policy even a little bit, but when I read this, "He then left the peace conference to return to the White House to continue planning war with Iran", my first thought was, what kind of BS is that. It may be a correct statement, however, but not proven in any way as being truly what happened.

We all have our opinions about Bush, and I think this entire administration is about as vile as any other killer regime in the history of the world, but sometimes statements like the above just aren't correct.

Man, i hope you were trying to be funny or something when this was posted, David..
"Iran don't have much of an Army or Air Force.All old stuff left over from years gone by. It will not take much planing to turn it into a glass parking lot.Let's go get them".

Otherwise, that type of thinking is just not right. Let's have some peace and loving going on here.

One of these days, we're going to be the target of this type of thinking, more so than any of this terorist fear mongering is going to bring amongst us...and then we will all be wishing we were more into being peaceful with our neighbors than by trying to manipulate them by our military force. I dread to see the day when the people of the US have to endure what is happening in Iraq, or what happened in Hiroshima.
I think a lof of folks that aren't religious now will be begging and prayng for forgiveness, and those that are will be wondering why God has forsaken them when they see their loved ones melting before their eyes, or see their body parts being blown to oblivion. When they see their neighborhoods being bombed to dust.

Yes sir, lets go turn it into a glass parking lot.

I should have put it on the joke page. Just trying to put a smile on your faces. Pardon me while I go wipe off all the tomatoes and eggs that were thrown at me.

btw...for those so inclined, or for even those that incline rightly, you may wish to avail yourselves of some fine reading :

You will find no doubt about where my political orientation lies after visiting these sites :)

Information Clearinghouse news you don't see on CNN...or FOX. This is a great site for alternative news
TomPaine.common sense
Natural Resources Defense Council
The Huffington Post
Not In Our Name
Peace Takes CourageThe young lady that runs this website is a visionary for her age. She has appeared on many TV shows, including CNN, etc.
American Friends Service Committee
Democracy Now!
ANTIWAR.com

when you visit the above sites, find their links section, where you will find tons of information for your learning pleasure.

Oh, I am a member of Move On and a subscriber to the Michael Moore newletter :)

I say, blow the Middle East off the planet and be done with them.

i cannot believe what I am reading on these forums...you guys all so rightious and stuff, wanting to blow people off the face of the earth.

You all should be ashamed of yourselves. If you're Christian, you all better get your butts to church or maybe read the bible or something.

get on your knees and pray to god that he doesn't strike you all down for wanting to kill his children.

no wonder we have a president that can't wait to get us into a war.

you make me wonder what is wrong with America. How can you think like that ?

Whoa Nellie!!! As I said before;

Give others freedom to be themselves. Appreciate the differences between their ways and yours.

I'll apologize for saying what i said HERE...as far as it goes for the freedom of saying what you want, but I also have a right to a response to those statements.

I think the part that gets me a bit riled is the fact , over many years, this site has promoted this great, clean, family, type of spirit..and there have been many critical postings when someone strayed off and talked about politics or said something...most folks here have expressed that they are pretty squeeky clean, god fearing, family types of people.

then you come here when its more open and allowed, and spew forth such dreadful stuff as wanting to kill , what...150 million people or something? Maybe you haven't really thought about what you just said.

If someone doesn't take issue with that, I don't even want to come here anymore. And I did take issue.

I know my statements on this will perhaps hurt a few a lot, maybe make them want to come and kill me or something...or , just perhaps, they will look into themselves and realize they don't really mean what they posted. I hope they don't mean it.

maybe now I understand why the folks that run this site wanted to keep the politics and religion out of it...because this openness brings forth things from people you never really wanted to hear or know about them...their thoughts, such as this.

I suppose though, as you said Snowman ..whoa Nellie..Give others freedom to be themselves. Appreciate the
differences between their ways and yours.

but those difference I am witness to scare the living crap out of me.

Its surely not the first time I've heard such comments, though. I've been around a lot of different people in my life, and believe me when I say there is a great percentage of the population that honestly prefer we just blow the Middle East to oblivion, along with anyone else that doesn't agree with our national agenda. And there are people that would rather kill a gay guy than take the chance he may rub off on their son, or kill a doctor that performs abortions. Or they would rather kick the snot out of someone then try to talk reasonably and come to a compromise over an issue.

I'm sure there are now a couple of people reading what I've posted here that would want to come down here and kick the snot out of me to shut me up...you know, shut up this left wing, liberal, commie •••••••.

Maybe there are just a lot of violent people. I can see where becoming a Christian would be a real boon to our society, as long as they actually practiced what Jesus taught. I believe Jesus was a pacifist, wasn't he? He did away with the eye for an eye deal professed in the Old Testament.

I guess my main point is that if you really are for peace, which a lot of us profess to be, you can't gain peace by preaching violence and acting violently. Honestly examine where your thoughts are. Do you really want your children to grow up and think they need to wipe out arabs, jews, Christians ? wipe out anyone that doesn't agree ?
I think we're more intelligent, more civilized than that. Hopefully. I may have to go back to church and pray.

and if my last postings get me kicked off the site, so be it. Bye to you all...its been a lot of fun.

I'll be hoping some change their thinking.

Hopefully my postings don't influence the owners to stop these open forums. They are a great place to discuss, but I may have come on a bit too strong, even in these forums.

Davesou, you didn't come on too strong at all. That's what this forum should be for - - - to be able to voice your opinions.
Guess we'll just have to start posting like an ambassador, with a little more tact.
By the way, if I haven't been kicked off by now, I really doubt that you will.

Davesou, I agree with Snowman. You did not come across too strong...just passionate in your views. There is never anything wrong with stating your opinion as long as you allow everyone the same right.

I agree with you in theory. I believe we need more diplomacy in foreign affairs. I strongly believe we need to employ some isolationism. Take care of our own house first...bring back manufacturing jobs, shore up social security and protect our country's core values.
However, I further believe we will not find a compromise with the Muslims. They truly believe and are intent on KILLING those they consider infidels. Read "ISLAM UNVEILED" for a starter. And God did say Ismael, the originater of Islam, and his followers would always be at war. Thus, another reason the US should never have entered a war with them...it is endless. I think that is possibly the reason so many people want to go in and blow the Middle East off the face
of the earth...they are frustrated! We are spending endless money and losing many soldiers with no chance of compromise, because Mohammed did not believe in compromise..only in annihilating the "unbelievers".

However, let's not throw the baby out with the water...keep this thread and let all express their opinions.

Well, well, isn't this getting interesting? I'm with Davesou for the most part. However, there are people living in this country who want to kill us. We don't know who they are but we do know that, for the most part, they are arabs. Many people would like to blow them off the map. I've heard it said many times. I think that's a little strong, but I can understand people feeling like that because they are scared for their lives and the lives of their loved ones. The answer is to get all of the illegals out of this country and to stop letting them in. I know a lot of people don't feel that way, but I do. The key word here is "illegal". Why are they here? They are changing everything about our country, and everything that this country has always stood for. I say send them back to their own countries and leave them alone. They don't like it in their country, obviously, or they wouldn't be here. But now that they are here, they want to change our country to be more like their country. And they don't want to be legal Americans, flying the American flag like the rest of us do. They want to fly their own flag. Just go back. If all of this happened, and I know it is not that easy, we could maybe all live in peace and harmony. We leave them alone, they leave us alone, end of discussion. It's a dream, I know. But we all have our dreams. Bring all of our troops home, plant them along our borders, and don't let anybody in who doesn't belong.

I checked out the sites Davesou listed. Each has their own objective. Seems somewhat narrow. A person could probably find any viewpoint there.
The best thing is to think over the problem facing us and then come up with your solution. Don't just quote others.
Having said that I noted in Iowa the idea of one payer health system came up and had what seemed a lot of voice approval.I don't know who they were.
But remember that if you do not want rationed health care you'd better be talking to your elected officials and asking some pertinent questions about how it will be financed and how the care will be distributed. (rationed) And, will doctors be forced to participate or volunteer?
In Great Britain doctors can stay out of the socialized health system. They make more money than those who join--------of course. Similar in Canada.
What do we want? Longer lines than some procedures already have? Here is an example---sort of----I needed cataract surgery. After a rather poor result from one doctor I wanted to change to a more highly respected doctor. He was full up and not taking on new patients. There being a doctor in our family a few strings were pulled and I became one of his patients. Of course he doesn't deal directly with that screening in most cases---his staff tells people no. But do we want this in all types of medical care?
As it is in many clinics you may have to wait several weeks to see your doctor. Emergencies go through immediately, but, other medical problems require some waiting.
Now change to socialized medicine. Just guess what the waiting would be---------????
By the way, why the fear of waiting? In this country there aren't enough medical providers to service all needs of the population.
I guess you could reduce the standards for med school to get more doctors. Or you could import more doctors who don't speak very good English and whose credentials are questionable. That does not mean to imply all foreign doctors are inferior. By no means. But there are enough marginally good doctors already in the system. We want more???
What is the solution. No idea at this time.

No disagreement here, Deb.

I agree on the illegals, Deb :)
That's not very left wing of me, is it ? LOL

I would add about 15 rows thick of good, sharp. razor wite, just in case a few decide to try getting through it.

As far as the Muslims, or the Middle East...maybe if we were to just get out of there totally, quit supporting the Israeli's....the ME would take care of itself..maybe they could work something out on their own. Doubt it though. They've been fighting each other since the beginning of civilization over there.

Yes, they have and it will continue. We do not need to shed more American blood or spend more American money.

I'm pretty left wing myself, but enough is enough with the illegals. This is getting to be ridiculous now. We have to get rid of them. They have no business being here if they don't want to be a true American. And I believe your wire would be just about the right thickness to keep them OUT!!!

I also agree that we should get out of there completely and leave them alone to fight their own battles. Should Israel lose, too bad for them. Nobody would intervene on our behalf, you can bet your bottom dollar on that. If they can't work something out, again, too bad for them. At least we'd be out of it. We can't go interfering in everybody's affairs all the time and expect the other countries to embrace us for it. This has to stop somewhere and why not now?

David Soumis: Here are a few more to add to your list and check out. These also have exceptional links, regards politics, veterans affairs, philosophy, history, economics.

www.therandirhodesshow.com/live/
www.wegoted.com/
www.thomhartmann.com/

Thom Hartmann is my favorite. He is from Lansing MI and a credit to the state!

need to add. I'm not one dimensional. I do pay attention to the rightside pundits as well..such as Bill Oriely, and the folks on TV...I can't stand Rush..that guy just doesn't hit me right..big mouth blabber face. He talks a lot but is so hypocritical its ridiculous. I think its a coverup for his own problems.
and the skinny blonde woman...It amazes me that the media continue to cover her, but she makes good gossip rag material.

Wow, a lot of opinions being posted. I guess it's true, everybody has one.... An opinion is a personally projected thought, influenced by the individuals profile.......nothing less, nothing more.......and thats all they are..........

Dave, you don't have to go back to church to pray; you can "go away by yourself, all alone, and shut the door behind you and pray to your Father secretly..." (Matthew 6:6)

up above I listed some sites I frequent and support.
Tom stated an important point, the narrowness of their objectives.

I believe that is one of the big weaknesses of a movement, people all trying to put forward their own agenda. To succeed in a movement, you need widespread support and a unified goal.

If your goal is peace, you can't have some for peace in South America, some for legal action in the US, some for getting out if Iraq, etc, etc. Evereyone needs to get together and determine a cohesive direction and goal.

make da love, not da war.

David
I think you should go back to church and ask GOD to take MICHAIL MOORE out of your life. You would be better off to stop listening to his garbage. He MICHAIL MOORE is a LIAR, EXAGGERATOR, and a FABRICATOR. If you beleive him, than you beleive in Benny Hinn.

If we would all get behind this War and support our President and our service men and women, the sooner it will be over. Gene in Wayland

Ditto Gene,
For those who wonder what is wrong with America because some want to go to war with Islamic Fascist's who chant," Death To America" Iran is dangerous. If we don't act now they will have a nuke by 2010. We are the biggest and the badest and it is our duty to see to it that they can not make one.

We as Americans would like to travel anywhere and everywhere in the World without having to worry that other's want to kill us. And other's should be able to come here legally with out fear of being killed.

The term "Islamofascism" dangerously obscures important distinctions and differences between groups of Islamic extremists.

These various groups and countries have different intentions and capabilities, often work at cross purposes and are in some cases ideologically opposed to each other.

Escalating tensions across the region between Shiites and Sunnis only emphasize their divergent interests and intentions.

"By confusing these various threats, we make it impossible to pursue effective policies that has caused the United State's to miss numerous opportunities, where it could have played these groups off of each other to America's benefit.

The term also creates the perception that the United States is fighting a religious war against Islam thus alienating moderate voices in the region who would be willing to work with America towards common goals.

Dividing these groups and dealing with them separately is a far better policy than lumping them together.


The term "Islamofascism was to describe the Iranian Revolution of 1978 by a Marxist, who described (fascist) as any movement of which is disapproved. But we should be grateful for this Marxist for coining a word that enables people on the left to denounce our common enemy. After all, leftists had welcomed the revolution as an amusing threat to Western interests. It is only now that people on the left can acknowledge that they are just as much a target as the rest of us, in a war that has global chaos as its goal.
The word has caught on, not least because it provides a convenient way of announcing that you are not against Islam but only against its perversion by the terrorists. But this prompts the question whether terrorism is really as alien to Islam as we should all like to believe. Muhammad the prophet is portrayed as a mild-mannered campaigner for social justice.

This readiness to take offense is not yet terrorism--but it is a sign of the deep-down insecurity of the Muslim psyche in the modern world. In the presence of Islam, we all feel, you have to tread carefully, as though humoring a dangerous animal. The Koran must never be questioned. Islam must be described as a religion of peace, isn't that the meaning of the word? And jokes about the prophet are an absolute no-no. If religion comes up in conversation, It's best to slip quietly away, accompanying your departure with abject apologies for the Crusades. And in Europe this pussyfooting is now being transcribed into law, with (Islamophobia) already a crime in Belgium and movements across the continent to censor everything at which a Muslim might take offence. Like a name for a Teddy Bear.


The majority of Muslims do not approve of terrorism. But there are majorities where Muslims believe that the bombs were a legitimate response to the (War On Terror.) Muslim leaders treat Islamist terrorism as a lamentable but understandable response to the West's misguided policies. And the blood-curdling utterances of the Clergy, reported in the press, sit uneasily with the idea of a (religion of peace.) All this leads to a certain skepticism among ordinary people, whose racist prejudices are denounced by the media as the real cause of Muslim disaffection.
Now of course it is wrong to give gratuitous offence to people of other faiths; it is right to respect people's beliefs, when these beliefs pose no threat to civil order; and we should extend toward resident Muslims all the toleration and neighborly goodwill that we hope to receive from them. But recent events have caused people to wonder exactly where Muslims stand in such matters. Although Islam is derived from the same root as Salaam, it does not mean peace but submission. And although the Koran tells us that there shall be no compulsion in matters of religion, it does not overflow with kindness toward those who refuse to submit to God's will. It remains as dangerous today as it was in the time of the prophet publicly to renounce the Muslim faith. Even if you cannot be compelled to adopt the faith, you can certainly be compelled to retain it. And the anger with which Muslims greet any attempt to challenge, to ridicule or to marginalize their faith is every bit as ferocious as that which animated the murderer of Theo Van Gogh. Ordinary Christians, who suffer a daily diet of ridicule and skepticism, cannot help feeling that Muslims protest too much, and that the wounds, which they display to the world, are largely self-inflicted.

To recognize such facts is not to give up hope for a tolerant Islam. But there is a matter that needs to be clarified. Christians and Jews are heirs to a long tradition of secular government, which began under the Roman Empire and was renewed at the Enlightenment: Human societies should be governed by human laws, and these laws must take precedence over religious edicts. The primary duty of citizens is to obey the state; what they do with their souls is a matter between themselves and God, and all religions must bow down to the sovereign authority if they are to exist within its jurisdiction.

The Ottoman Empire evolved systems of law which to some extent replicated that wise provision. But after the Ottoman collapse the Muslim sects rebelled against the idea, since it contradicts the claims of the Shariah to be the final legal authority. The Egyptian writer and leader of the Muslim Brotherhood, Sayyid Qutb, went so far as to denounce all secular law as blasphemy. Mortals who make laws for their own government, he argued, usurp a power which is God's alone. And although few Muslim leaders will publicly endorse Qutb's argument, few will publicly condemn it either. What to us is a proof of Qutb's fanaticism and egomania is, for many Muslims, a proof of his piety.

Christian religion, a fact but rarely commented upon today, which is that it is informed by a spirit of irony. Irony means accepting (the other) as someone other than you. It was irony that led Christ to declare that his kingdom is not of this world, not to be achieved through politics. Such irony is a long way from the humorless incantations of the Koran. Yet, it is from a posture of irony that every real negotiation, every offer of peace, every acceptance of the other, begins. The way forward, it seems, is to encourage the re-emergence of an ironical Islam, of the kind you find in the philosophy of Persian poetry. We should also encourage those ethnic and religious jokes which did so much to defuse tension in the days before political correctness. And maybe, one day, the rigid face of some puritanical mullah will crack open in a hesitant smile, and negotiations can at last begin.

You say: "There are persons who have no money," and you turn to the law. But the law is not a breast that fills itself with milk. Nor are the lacteal veins of the law supplied with milk from a source outside the society. Nothing can enter the public treasury for the benefit of one citizen or one class unless other citizens and other classes have been forced to send it in. If every person draws from the treasury the amount that he has put in it, it is true that the law then plunders nobody. But this procedure does nothing for the persons who have no money. It does not promote equality of income. The law can be an instrument of equalization only as it takes from some persons and gives to other persons. When the law does this, it is an instrument of plunder.

Some people seem to think that because we don't support the president's war that we don't support the troops. That is simply not true. We'd have to be totally unfeeling to not support those brave men and women who are over there fighting for a war that, I think, is unwinnable. To tell us to get behing the war so that is over sooner is just ridiculous! I don't think anybody believes that just by getting behind it it'd be over quicker. I think that most of us were behind it in the beginning when we went hunting for Bin Laden. And when we were told that there were weapons of mass destruction we also backed it. However, the weapons were not there and our primary objective is no longer Bin Laden. Therefore, I will not support this war. But God bless the soldiers and may they come home soon and safely.

as a past member of the military, 14 years, I totally support the troops, but I do not support any war, nor did I support the killing going on in the hunt for Bin Laden, nor the buildup of war sentiment over the WMD scare of Iraq, and absolutely did not support going to war against Iraq.

My brother served 2 tours in Iraq. We discussed my feelings openly. He understands where I'm coming from, and I understand what he's doing in the Army...30 years in the army, with the 101st Airborne. I attended his retirement ceremony at Ft. Campbell. During a party at the NCO club, I was introduced to the troops attending. My brother stated I was one of the main reasons he enlisted...to protect my freedom of speech because I was willing to speak up...to be an American. He also understood the fact i went into the military during Vietnam.

I had a couple of reasons for getting out of the military...one of the biggest was a philosophical change...from knowing that becasue I was part of the military, I would at some time , be required to support killing. It is a fact of being in the military..any branch, that you would be in that situation. The planes I worked on in Vietnam shot rockets at people. They died. Others found troop movements and called in air strikes, people died. When we got rocketed and a bunch of Korean Tiger Division troops that were along side us got killed, they went out and burned to the ground 13 villages and killed everything that moved...everything. They came back with ears dangling from their web belts.
I could not accept that fact any longer.

If people could accept each other, actually sit down and work out their differences, not bring people to submission by military might and rape their resources, things would be much better in the world. Terrorism comes from the inability to be heard. People that are downtrodden have no other means to gain respect and equality.

Its simply mind boggling to me that the source of so much peace for people on Earth, and that is religion, can also cause so much hate. So much killing over a few different ideals. Its really pitiful that people can't learn to get along. Accept the differences, try to help each other get along, by sharing resources....make it good for everybody, not just a few.
This from David H. is what's wrong in the world "The law can be an instrument of equalization only as it takes from some persons and gives to other persons. When the law does this, it is an instrument of plunder".
This type of thinking. Its not plunder, its sharing. Equality. What's wrong with that?

Let's just "turn the other cheek" and everything will be right with the world......

Davesou, you say you do not support any war, or the killing going on in the hunt for Ben Laden.
What was our President, George Bush suppose to do when we were attacked Sept. 11 2001 and lost 3025 people, Just say OH WELL they got us again,now don"t you terrorist do that to us again, promise?
If William Jefferson Clinton would have went after Ben Laden instead of spending his time with women when the USS COLE was attacked on Oct. 12 2000 and we lost 17 Sailors and 39 injured we probly wouldn"t be in this mess today.I thank you for 14 years in the Military, but you knew going in you would be trained to kill.What do we have a Military for?
Certainly not to sit around and draw pay as little as it is, it is to defend and that means kill if we have to. We lost half a million in the second world war, 50,000 in my war KOREA
If everyone felt like you do, how would we defend our selves. Gene in Wayland

Look up the name "GENERAL GEORGE SADA" on the internet.He was Saddam Husseins top military advisor. He was a Christian living in a Muslim world.Hussein trusted him because he was a Christian.We went to here him speak in Grand Rapids some time ago. He also was the Number two man in the Airforce.He will tell you for a fact Hussein dad WMDs.In 2002 they stripped a 747 down inside and loaded 56 Sorties an flew them to Syria.
George Bush didn"t go to Iraq and inspect there Country, He took the word of the inspectors that did go, and he beleived them just like most of the Democrats did, but yet he is the LIAR.
Gene in Wayland

Just like the shooting of JFK, will we ever learn the true story of 9-11?

War is ••••, ask anyone that has been in one.

Yes, a few still think Oswald wasn't the only shooter, but now there's gray area's about 9-11...... What don't you understand????

I don't understand 9-11 just like Pearl Harbor.

My goodness, I guess I will have to refer to you as Mr. Conspiracy instead of snowman.....:)

FJL, as I said; Why can't we be friends?
My Mom and Dad were involved in the "Pearl Harbor Alert", it was ignored by the government, just like 9-11. FJL, you can call me anything you want, just don't call me late for dinner.
I know you are a softie, you just won't admit it!

the entire problem is the US foreign policy in the Middle East. It just isn't the fact Muslims want to kill us, if they do at all, and I seriously doubt all of them have the desire to kill non-Muslims.

9-11 was carried out be terrorists..no doubt. They were tied or were Al Qaeda, led by Bin Laden. What are the chances that Bin Laden wouldn't be our enemy if things were different in the Middle East? Do you realize that the United States supported Bin Laden in Afghanistan for many years agains the Russian occupiers? Just like we supported and set up Saddam Hussein, and the same as we instigated the overthrow of Iran, which was the only democracy in the Middle East at the time...for oil.

Also...when I joined the military, yes, i understood what I was getting into. My change of philosophy is the reason I got out. I stated that in my original post. I've never been someone that supported war, however...any war, but when I was in the military, I had a job to do and I did it.

As far as what our President was supposed to do after 9-11?
He should have done just like the Quakers did in Pennsylvania when a bunch of school kids got killed.

Why do we have to be vindictive and revengeful? We do we have to go and kill someone just becasue it happened to us? It just breeds more killing, more terrorists, more enemies.

There needs to be a complete change of heart.

I think a lot of people would change their attitudes if they were inflicted with the same intolerance, the same enslavement of our resources, as we do to other countries.

I enjoy the high standard of living we have, but I do not believe its worth it to have to kill and have wars to maintain it, to ride rough shod over other countries by wielding our military might...or our economic might, which is faltering quickly.

but hey, if you all want to go on having wars and stuff, be full of fear because some terrorist is going to blow up a mall, or a monument, then keep supporting what is going on.

We all have a choice. I would prefer trying to debate, trying to have peace instead of wanting to have revenge and feeling hate. just my opinion.

What and where is the gray area about 9 11
We were attacked by Ben Ladens terroist, plain and simple. Davesou, It is a fact Muslims do want to kill us, where have you been, they have been attaking us around the world for the last forty five years.It will never stop in the middle east. It would be nice if we could all stay home and protect our boarders and forget about other countries and just take care of ourselves,BUT that isn"t the way mankind is made up, sorry to say. Gene in Wayland

Islamic Fascists want to kill us. I don't hear anybody talking about this, but I don't believe Osama Bin Laden is living in a cave in Afghanistan or Pakistan. Iran in 2003 admitted they were holding high level Al-Qaeda members, some of which were Bin Laden's sons and wives and children. We do know Abu Musab al-Zarqawi came through Iran to Iraq. Their goal is to get the US out of the region and come to power in the Islamic countries of the region. From there their goal is to establish a Caliphate, they're Persians. They're not Arabs !!And if we don't wake up as American people we're going to find ourselves in that sea of isolation and desperation and chaos! We have to understand that this is deeper than a nuclear weapon. Iran knows that we can destroy them nuclear wise. They are trying to develop the nuclear weapon to use on Israel and to further the threat of the Caliphate. I just don't understand your lack and our leaders lack of presenting these things. I should not have to tell you. There is one intelligence analyst who was on Fox News one night and stated that he had information that Osama Bin Laden was being protected in Iran. If you don't think that's the case, look at Hekmatyar Gulbuddin, who was the former prime minister of Afghanistan, who publicly has been supported and propped up and protected by Iran since the 1970s. He publicly announced that he was going back to Afghanistan to help the Taliban, and since then, there's been this so-called resurgence. I just don't get why you Liberal people don't see the real threat???
I guess we need some to get up on the roofs with signs reading "Don't Shoot Me Please" while those like me are taking aim inside our homes ready to kill those who want to kill us Americans in our Homeland. Your to much into your Liberalism as your religion.Take your blinders off for Heaven sake. It is bad enough we are going to have to fight them, let alone gain your support. You say you want to debate or negotiate them. You must not have a x wife.

nope...no x wife...been married for 34 years. We negotiate, accept each other's differences, get along just fine. A few spats now and then...who doesn't, but they're not physical, they're disagreements...then we negotiate again and have a mutual settlement and understanding.
There is a basis for this, however..its love.

Ah! Now we've hit on it Dave. The whole basis for your successful relationship with your wife is love and mutual respect. The radical Islamists are driven by hatred.
How do you negotiate with that? Yes we have had some very screwed up foreign policy in that area but to blame it on our policies is not seeing the whole picture. The extremists teach their children to hate anyone who doesn’t believe as they do. They then recruit the oppressed by convincing them that their problems are caused by US instead of the political/religious system under which they live.

Mr. Snowman, why am I not your friend. Responding to the few posts of yours that require one does not make me less of a friend, unless only those that agree with you are considred friendly, as appears to be the case. And you are correct, I am a big softie...... In friendship, FJL......

FJL, I didn't realize I had been so negative toward your responses. I do apologize and I will try harder to keep an open mind. Now if you'll excuse me, I have some crow to eat.

Check out this site;
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/6210240/

From a post by David S. Dec. 6th....."Terrorism comes from the inability to be heard. People that are downtrodden have no other means to gain respect and equality."..... The numerous be-heading video's. The payment to families for their children to use as suicide bombers. The brainwashed young men and women carrying explosives into public markets , blowing up innocent men, women and children. Slaughtering tens of thousands of their own people, just "to be heard."....I may be old-fashioned and not up with the latest Liberal way of thinking Mr. David S. but those MURDERERS are not gaining my "respect" either.........

I agree with you FJL...they surely don't have my respect and don't deserve anyone's respect.

The question becomes, what can we or anyone do to stop their actions?
Why are they doing it? Where did the hate come from?
Is it not possible to talk to these people ? What has to be done to change their philosophy?

or

Do we do like they do and run around and kill them all. I sincerely do not see the justice in killing them. Is it a neccessity to kill them?

If we allow them to kill us, where does that end ?

Are there even any answers? I'm not all that naive to believe there is a simple solution, like love or respect. Maybe there is no solution.

A few days ago someone said maybe we need to turn Iran into glass, and the other comment was to just blow away everyone in the Middle East(paraphrased).....that would solve a big problem, wouldn't it? But then what? Guess we could just push that action deep into the recesses of our minds and try to justify it.

Then what happens when its time to meet our maker. Do you go to •••• because you advocated or took part in killing people? Thou shalt not murder.
but then, there is a problem: from wikipedia, but it tells the story.....
--------
"(Roman Catholic) You shall not kill / (Lutheran) You shall not murder"
The right of states to execute criminals is not absolutely forbidden by this commandment. However, other methods of protecting society (incarceration, rehabilitation) are increasingly available and more in keeping with other Christian moral teaching. Catholics (along with many Protestants) also consider abortion sinful and a violation of this commandment. War, if rigorous conditions of moral legitimacy are met (that is, the "use of arms must not produce evils and disorders graver than the evil to be eliminated"), is not a violation because "governments cannot be denied the right of lawful self-defense, once all peace efforts have failed." (See Catechism 2258–2330.)
------------

so then you have the excuse to allow wiping out a civilization, a country, whatever.

We're really in a pickle, then.

In the current war in Iraq, I think anyone with sense would have to agree this is an illegitimate war from world laws, and before the eyes of the lord.

David, I am not the one stating we should turn the Middle East into glass etc; however, I have heard many variations to this suggestion. I have never taken it to mean literally. When I have heard such comments it was in the context of either seriously fight the war as a war to be won (in other words give the troops the necessary supplies, weapons and discretion to do the job) or get us out. Hemorrhaging American lives and $ is not acceptable.

I do agree with you in that we should never be in Iraq. I supported the position to go after Bin Laden, but then we swerved way off base and forgot the original target.

How many U.S. companies are making money over this war? Aren't all of the wars a money issue?

David if that is the case , than WHAT war was legitimate?
Gene in Wayland

Not to mention the mercenary forces we are paying over there.

Legitimate, means to make lawful, was it lawful for U S to go into Iraq?
Justify, to show to be just,right or reasonable.
Was it reasonable for US to go into Iraq, absolutly yes.Our Government was told there was WMDs there, but were taken out before we got there, So were we justifed? YES
Gene in Wayland

Our government pays the "Blackwater" company for mercenary forces over there $950 a day per person of which the Blackwater company pays each person $350 per person a day! Needless to say our regular Armed Forces are not too happy about this and there is a growing resentment, not only because of the money but the special privileges Blackwater enjoys! The head CEO (owner?) of Blackwater is married to Dick Devoss sister!

On September 11, 2001, over 3000 inocent American fathers, mothers, sons, daughters, grandmothers and grandfathers were brutally murdered by a group of extremist muslims who with grocery cutters took down the World Trade Center. Unfortunately in order to protect ourselves from people who would love to smuggle a nuclear device into a major US city and kill a million innocent people, President Bush decided we needed to send a message to the governments of Iraq, Iran, Syria, Sudan, Samolia, Afghanistan, Lebanon, and other states whose governments would allow groups like Al Qaida and Hezbollah to use their countries to organize and obtain the means to attack the western democracies. Whether you like it or not, this is reality. The saftey your family is directly related to the willingness of America to defend our country and way of life around the world. The only way to do that throughout history has been to make sure the enemy realizes that the price of attacking the United States will far exceed the benefits thereof. In the cold war, the Russians knew if they launched a nuke, they would get dozens in return.
Unfortunately there are many in this country that simply don't get it. The very freedoms they take for granted every day would be gone in a minute if the Bin Ladens of the world have their way. Ask the Jews in Germany of the 1930s. They simply didn't believe that their government could do all of those horrible things.
War is not a wine and cheese party. Bad things happen. But your freedom to live your life as a free person is at stake.

Politics; It would seem that many people in the USA have forgotten that most major civilizations in world history have been toppled from within rather than without. At the present time we have a person who was raised by parents with mideast religious beliefs and then affiliated himself with a Christian church to improve his chances in the political field. This person is running for the President of the United States right now. "Something to think about"

Charlie, I never heard it said any better. You hit it right on the head. Some people just don"t get it , If we had not gone to some of these countries over the years, we would have it right on our door step. Sept 11, 2001 was to close.
Gene in Wayland

Another look at 9-11;

http://mindprod.com/politics/bush911insidejob.html#INSIDEJOB

Charlie Russell (Crussell):
"President Bush decided we needed to send a message to the governments of … Samolia, … and other states …"

Mebby I'm getting rusty on my geography, but where in heck is Samolia?

Ya 'spose their currency is where we get the slang term "samoleon" — a common misspelling of "simoleon" — for the US Dollar, as in "That'll cost you five simoleons."

Other than that, I have to agree with Gene in Wayland, you nailed it!

Here's an interesting definition of PATRIOTISM, by Howard Zinn. This is a video.
Democracy Now interview with Howard Zinn and Noam Chomsky

the interview starts at minute 10.

If you can stand it, the interview is with Howard Zinn and Noam Chomsky from April 2007. They discuss the war in Vietnam and compare it to what is happening in Iraq.

There are some interesting points of view here, whether you are right or left wing, it demonstrates a different way of thinking about war and the US involvement in the world.

"Ask the Jews in Germany of the 1930s. They simply didn't believe that their government could do all of those horrible things".

Pretty much as the people here in the US with their blinders on, isn't it ?

torture, bombing, killing, imprisonment without representation, spying, phone tapping, email reading, suggestions that neighbors watch neighbors for suspicious activity, profiling, blind nationalism, accusing those opposed to war as being unpatriotic. Taking pictures of peace protesters so they can be rounded up if needed. Spreading FEAR throughout the country.

what the h___ is that? FREEDOM? DEMOCRACY? HUMAN RIGHTS?

Thanks Charlie ditto's. And that is what the H___ it boils down to Dave S. I never said it wasn't a shame.

Back to Viet Nam - - - has anyone noticed how the country is flourishing? Not only are they making our clothes but they are also making our gym shoes. Soooo, what was that war all about? Another way to obtain "cheap labor" for the all ready rich companies in the good old USA???

Davesou..
Sorry sir.. When you engage in terrorism you forfeit your civil rights.

You are right on again, Charlie; however, those responsible for 9/11 are still at large.

Kathy,
With all due respect. Yes, Osama is still at large although many of his main operators are in custody. There's a culture in the middle east that sees the West as a great satan. This is because these people will not be able to keep their subjects in line when they compare their medieval lifestyle with that of the United States. These people oppress women and send their young men strapped with a bomb into a restaurant filled with families eating pizza to kill as many of them as possible. Unless we make it abuntantly clear that we will not tolerate terrorism in any form, and that the perpetrators thereof will be dealt with in a swift and deadly manor, we will always live with the threat that our children and grandchildren will be killed by terrorism. We may not have Bin Laden but it's been 6 years and we haven't had another attack.

"David if that is the case , than WHAT war was legitimate"?
Gene in Wayland

I would have to place WW2 as legitimate, as much as I hate to admit mass killing as was done is ever necessary. Hitler had killed 6 million Jews, destroyed much of Europe, and would have pretty much done the same to the US, sooner or later. Japan was on the same track, and bombed Pearl Harbor.

The dropping of the A-bomb on Japan was totally wrong. I'm amazed our government did not get charged with that one, but at the time we were honored as ending the war with the Axis....we had the upper hand.

Then you say we are justified, because of the attack on the World Trade Towers , and the death of 3000 innocent people, to run roughshod over the Middle East. IRAQ is wrong. You will never convince me that our top government officials did not know there were no WMDs in Iraq. How bad is our intelligence? We have one of the best in the world. We have satellites that can read the newsprint on a paper from space. We track all movements, especially in a country that we were planning on invading to control their oil.

I think it would be great if Bin Laden could be captured and imprisoned for life. We have the covert ops, and some pretty darn tough outfits in the military, that could gain access to pretty much anywhere, and do what they have to do.
The killing of innocent civilians, as is happening in our quest, is not necessary.

Again, why are these terrorists doing what they do? Why do they hate us? They are not all
Muslim extremist crazies.

I think the bottom line is, however, that we, as humans, as a species on Earth, have to learn to live with one another in peace and love.
This hate filled attitude, closed mindedness, and overall power' John Wayne kick-••• mentality , is the cause of the problems in this world. If we continue the violence, it will never end. If the eye for an eye mentality does not stop, we will never have peace. It has to stop somewhere.

No amount of war, fighting, and killing will ever achieve peace. It just breeds more of the same.

Obviously, no one has checked out my 9-11 link.

Evolution and tribalism

Darwin --- survival of the fittest.

Since the beginning of time, or at least of the human species, its been necessary to group together, into tribes, for survival. We all possess the natural instinct to survive.
It's no different today. If you're weak, you perish, or perhaps you work for $5 an hour, or maybe live in the street. If you're strong, maybe you're an executive, or at least you're in a position to take care of your family...to make it through life. Sometimes it takes a lot of work, of trials and tribulations, but you survive.

Its the nature of things.

Rules and laws came about to create societies that functioned in an orderly manner. To prevent some overzealous, super alpha males, the predators from running rampant over everyone else.

There are some that ignore the rules and laws and do what they want. Some land in prison. Some change the rules to fit what they want to do. So their actions are covered by the laws they create.

Its up to the rest of the tribe to either respect thr orignal laws, or to side with the power lord, perhaps they're afraid of the consequences?

Is preemption a part of the survival game? Suppose it is. Does it fit in with the given laws that have been established over time to create a peaceful environment. NO. It is the actions of the predator, the bully, the super alpha male. The desire to control, to own everything. The power trip.

So, I guess in order to survive, you must destroy the super alpha male...somehow...whatever it takes, by whatever means.

Somehow, that scenario doesn't sound good for peace and happiness, for stability. Maybe there needs to be a movement to eliminate certain human traits. We need the peace gene or something.

Throughout the history of civilization, peace has come through strength. There's only one way to guarantee peace and security. Make sure there's someone with a big enough stick to make it so.

Some dream of a peace not imposed by UN soldiers or weapons of war
The dream of peace where in reality, we must first lose sight of the shore

Some pursue the peace known to them as the little white dove
A peace in which each creed, colour and race can love

Some search for the peace that begins not with war
The peace that men of arms need not die for

Some question the peace that we supposedly have today
The peace in which rain still falls and clouds are grey

Some speak of a true peace in which the world can live free
A peace that is only a hope and will never actually be

"Some speak of a true peace in which the world can live free
A peace that is only a hope and will never actually be "

isn't that a real bummer of a phrase. Doesn't say much for humanity does it?

The big stick theory works only to a certain extent, if you want to live under the fear of terrorism forever.

Obviously, no one has checked out my 9-11 link.

THE LINK DOES NOT WORK

Yes it is a bummer, the truth hurts, so does war. What's really sad is "what is the truth?"

No, the link doesn't work. We don't need that link to prove there are two sides to every story. Some of us all ready know.

SO what was our excuse for going into Europe in WW2, We didn"t know going in that Hitler killed Six million Jews. How many thousands of people did Hussien kill before we got there. These were and are CRAZY men running some countries
In our USA we can call our President HITLER,and call him a LIAR,and get away with it, you wouldn,t dare do it in another country.We still are the land of the free and the brave.
I will say one thing, the Democrats have done one good job of destroying this President,they have got half our country to liturly hate him, what a shame.In all these post you sure can pick out Democrat from Republican. Gene in Wayland

If we can get away with everything you say, Gene, then what happened to my link?

Snowman, I had tried the link, also...but figured it was just my computer ineptness that I couldn't access same.

Gene, I disagree that you can tell who is Republican and who is Democrat from our position on the present political mess. (Although from your comments reflected on anyone who doesn't agree with your viewpoint, I would have to say you are Republican.) I go with the candidate and not the party, which I believe is another right we have in this country. Now if either or any party would just run someone worth a vote.

kind of funny...I'm not a Democrat either :)

As of this moment, other than Kucinich, I wouldn't vote for any of the candidates.

I am taking Unity08 for a ride right now, but I will fall off that org probably pretty soon. I align better with the Green party, or similar, but am not supporting them either.

Totally independent.

quite frankly, I think we need an entirely new party to spring up. One that supports people that make less than 100,000 a year, and especially support for those under 50,000, and the homeless, those with no jobs, or healthcare. A party that is anti-war. Let's get John Wayne out of the government. A party that's willing to talk. I'm all for a strong defense at home. Enough of the imperialistic ambitions. Bring all of our troops home...from Korea, Germany, Philipines, Iraq, the Middle East, everywhere.
A party that will bring back the manufacturing base in this country and get rid of NAFTA, WTO, and all that. Put profit caps on all industries, but allow any excess that is used for R&D and expansion, job creation, and especially for alternative fuels. Get rid of the big oil subsidies. They don't need them when they are making such huge profits. They need to use their money for R&D...not the taxpayers. Public utilities....gas, water, electric....no profit in utilities.

Total support for the schools. No war, plenty of money for schools and healthcare. Build homes for the homeless....I don't mean to build homes for those not willing to work for them...but homes for those who can't. Is this socialism? Partly ...
but its about time we start thinking of others instead of ourselves.

David Soumis (Davesou):
"THE [9-11] LINK DOES NOT WORK"

Well it wasn't that hard to figure out, just use the part that was there, then copy and concatenate the rest ("#INSIDEJOB") to the link in your browser's address window, and you're there.

As to the target site, all I can say is "You really are kidding us, right?"

DaveSou, I agree with all your points in the last post. I'm all for a viable 3rd party. It cannot be a fringe group, as I mistakenly voted green (Nader) which played a big part in getting "W' in the position to screw things up.

Sounds like I have to eat my words,maybe we don't have any Democrats posting., but I did get a rise out of few of you. Sorry David your link will not work.I hope it does not have anything to do with an in side job, that I will never go for. Sorry David ,but I took you for a Hillary guy, My apology. Gene in Wayland

kathy , be nice.
Gene in Wayland

Snowman, the link doesn't work because the #INSIDEJOB has to be within it. I'll try. http://mindprod.com/politics/bush911insidejob.html#INSIDEJOB

The link seems to work the same either way, just scroll down.

David Soumis (Davesou):
"The dropping of the A-bomb on Japan was totally wrong."

Horrific though that was, I'm not so sure I agree. Would the alternative have been better, or dramatically worse? We could debate that unto eternity, but perhaps we can never really know.

Consider the centuries long Japanese traditions of Bushidō, and the Samurai, especially as manifested in the so-called Banzai charge, or human-wave style suicide attacks mounted by the infantry forces of the Imperial Japanese Army, and the airborne variant, the Imperial Japanese Navy's Kamikaze attacks on ther US Naval Fleet in the Pacific.

Consider also our experience on many of the Pacific islands, such as Saipan, Iwo Jima, Guadalcanal and Okinawa, for example, where the Japanese were determined to fight to the last man.

There was little doubt that the Japanese would have fought to the death, to the last man, woman and child had we undertook Operation Downfall, the planned invasion of Japan, which would have resulted in far more massive casualties on both sides.

---

Quote:

Because the U.S. military planners assumed "that operations in this area will be opposed not only by the available organized military forces of the Empire, but also by a fanatically hostile population", high casualties were thought to be inevitable, but nobody knew with certainty how high.

A study done for Secretary of War Henry Stimson's staff by William Shockley estimated that conquering Japan would cost 1.7 to 4 million American casualties, including 400,000 to 800,000 fatalities, and five to ten million Japanese fatalities. The key assumption was large-scale participation by civilians in the defense of Japan.

Outside the government, well-informed civilians were also making guesses. Kyle Palmer, war correspondent for the Los Angeles Times, said half a million to a million Americans would die by the end of the war. Herbert Hoover, in memorandums submitted to Truman and Stimson, also estimated 500,000 to 1,000,000 fatalities, and were believed to be conservative estimates; but it is not known if Hoover discussed these specific figures in his meetings with Truman.

---

---

Quote:

Could that nuclear-arms race have been avoided had we not first used atomic weapons?

Could the worlds best scientists have realistically avoided the study of nuclear technology?

Would the "missile age" have come as quickly without the atomic bomb?

What about the space age in general? Would that also have been put off into the indefinite future?

Was space exploration - missile technology, hydrogen bombs, all the rest of it - a natural outgrowth of the atomic bomb?

---

Hillary...I think she may have some good ideas, but she waffles so much, you can't tell what she really stands for. It may be that she will stand for anything that will get her votes, and change those stances as needed to influence other voters.

It also may be a ploy to get elected, then her true self will come forth, but I surely am not willing to take the chance. I do know she votes for quite a few bills I'm against.

My philosophy...I really and truly would like to see The US regain what she had...maybe a generation or so ago. I think we were headed on the correct path...or were we already on the current path? Its hard to say. Back in the 60s, the peace movement was pretty strong. People in general were not as vicious or self centered. Or am I completely deluded?

Arlo Guthrie, on a History Channel program by Tom Brokow that I watched tonight, titled 1968, made a statement near the close of the show..this is paraphrased as i can't remember his exact words...he perhaps had higher illusions of worldwide peace. He felt more people would jump on the peace train, but it did not happen. He still has hope.

One of the reasons the US dropped the a-bomb on Japan was to send Russia a message. That's a fact.

With the world in as much turmoil as there was, I can see why the soviets built a bomb...and i can see why Iran would love to have one now. How else can you equalize another country? We threaten Iran all the time. The a-bomb is an equalizer, a deterrent to aggression. We have ours for the same reason. But where does it end? With one day using them, or perhaps one day we will all decide to do away with the weapons and live in peace?
Hopefully its the latter.

"Every gun that is made, every warship launched, every rocket fired, signifies, in the final sense, a theft from those who hunger and are not fed, those who are cold and not clothed"-

Dwight D. Eisenhower (Republican)!

"Here is your country. Cherish these natural wonders, cherish the natural resources----the history---the romance, for your children and your childrens children. Do not let selfish men or greedy interests skin your country of its riches or its romance"

Theodore Roosevelt (Republican!)

" Those who are rich and whose troubles are few may come around to see my point of view--
What price the Crown of a King on his throne
When you're chained in the dark all alone!"

From Edgar Allan Poes "Tales of Mystery & Imagination"

PEARL HARBOR: The intent of the strike was to protect Imperial Japan's advance into Malaya and the Dutch East Indies for their natural resources such as OIL and rubber by neutralizing the U.S. pacific fleet......

The Liberal left seems to think that the only reason we are in Iraq is because of (the sin of all sin's) OIL......There migh't be some truth to that and than maybe not. I don't know. But what is OIL?? It is the life blood of civilization. Without it we don;t exist in todays way of living. There are those that call for all U.S. Military to be brought back to this country and become isolationist's to do nothing but protect our borders. Thats exactly what the powers of the Middle East and the terrorests want. They say thats the only thing standing between peace. They give us their word. Would you bet your life on that word, because that's what you would be doing. If all of the foreign oil was witheld from us what would happen? In a matter of weeks our country would be at a standstill. You could use the military to try to quell the civil unrest that would follow, if they could get to those places. No oil to grow, process and transport food. No oil for production of any kind. No transportation of any kind. We would be then truly in isolationism. So now how important is oil? Without it we don't survive..... Lets not kid our-selfs, we will be dependent on fossel fuels for a long, long time.....I for one want our military presence in the Middle East. If you don't understand why I do, read my post again...........

Did you also know that the US has approximately 23 oil companies? Now who do you think is going to reap from this war????

Mr. Snowman, the U.S. could have 100 oil companies. Where do they get their oil? Maine, Vermont, Florida?? Where in the U.S. is it??? Please tell me so I don't have to worry about Foreign oil again!!!!!!!!

Iraqi oil workers are waking up to the fact that a proposed hydrocarbon law the Bush administration wants the Iraqi Parliament to pass will effectively place the country’s massive oil reserves in the hands of big U.S. and British oil giants for decades.

Many Iraqis are only realizing now what experts have been saying since 2003: that the invasion of Iraq was about oil and Israel, and not about America’s security.

The new law would transfer ownership of the majority of Iraq’s oil from the Iraqi government and hand it to multinational oil companies linked mostly to the United States, though the British would have a slice of the action.

There would be no benchmarks establishing how much of the profits oil companies would have to share with Iraq.

Hmmm, don't Bush and Cheney have a "bit" of an interest in the oil industry??

My point being, that these penny energy stocks can be tremendously rewarding if you get into the right equity before its run up.

Because Tamm Oil and Gas Corp. (OTCBB: TAMO) is still fairly new, not many on Wall Street have picked up on it yet.

As of Nov. 12, 2007, (OTCBB: TAMO) is the brand new trading symbol for Tamm Oil and Gas Corp, a newly formed exploration-stage company whose stock has already been up a sizzling 116 % in less than a month!

And that's one reason I'm telling you can buy shares of TAMO now, before Wall Street analysts realize that Tamm Oil and Gas Corp. could make early gains like oil sands giant, Suncor. Its stock gained 10,500% when $60-a-barrel oil made Alberta's oil sands a viable source of crude.

Dave S. said this up above. quote
I think we need an entirely new party to spring up. One that supports people that make less than 100,000 a year, and especially support for those under 50,000, and the homeless, those with no jobs, or healthcare

And I now ask..? Why look to goverenment to slove these problems? The less government in a persons personal life is a good thing.I would like to have a party,after a party gets in that gets the H*** out of our way! Snowman,you reap what you sew. Are you cursing me?

Snoman..
I can't believe a person of your obvious talent and intellect buys into this gobbledegook.

Fossil fuels, like it or not, are the very foundation of our economy. You can't run your snowmobile without it. Without an adequate supply of fossil fuels you wouldn't be able to live more than a mile or two from work. ( I hear it's real rough up there when you have to hike to work at -15.) The entire American economic engine runs on petroleum products. Petroleum gets products to market efficiently. That's why you can enjoy fresh fruit in the UP in January.
It powers tractors and combines,ships and trucks that bring goods from all over the world. It powers your SUV so you can drive to work. It gives Americans freedom to travel at will and grow from the experiences and opportunities such travel provides. For the forseeable future, there is no alternative to fossil fuels. So my question to you is, assuming you're correct which you aren't, what is wrong with assuring our country a reliable supply of fuel for many years to come? What is wrong with insuring that the standard of living that you have come to take for granted continues?

What is right with paying over $3.00 for a gallon of gas???
I was trying to be tactful but obviously too tactful since no one got the picture.
Now if you'll excuse me, I have to wipe the rotten eggs off my face.

Now snowman, their not rotten, their just eggs. I think you missed a spot. In friendship, FJL

Whew, thank goodness, fresh eggs. Yep, FJL, I'll wipe off that other spot, thanks buddy.

i personally would rather walk than have a war for oil.
Plant a garden and grow my veggies like in the old days.

and maybe we just might have to live closer to work and stuff. That's why cities are all built up...to fit the people. We didn't have suburbs before. The old timers used to grab their horse and buggy and ride into town every once in awhile for supplies. I'm all for that.

ALTERNATIVE FUELS..we haven't done s--t to actually do anything about this.

And YES...oil is used to produce just about everything we use...and eat...but maybe its time to think outside the box and come up with something else.

and to continue...
all kinds of excuses to do nothing. Go over and kick butt...get the oil. yee haw...bunch of cowboy gunslingers.

the Africans make it...they all look to be walking to me. bunch of lazy spoiled brats.

When i was a kid we used to walk everyday with 4 feet of snow on the road and -30 degrees, with hand me down clothes. My choppers had holes.

What's wrong with the young pups nowadays?

How can I go to the mall? WALK you little pita. Quit whining and go pick that corn. WAAAAAAA...you mean I have to get up at 11am? I need my beauty sleep....waaaaaaaaaaaaa

yikes

Yes, the "good old days". Were they the good old days because politicians weren't as greedy? Or were they the "good old days" because we were too young to care?
There's more to oil than fuel, the oil by-product produces plastics that supposedly we need. When you go to the grocery store and they ask you "plastic or paper", please respond with paper, it helps the UP.
As far as alternate fuels go, I have worked at many nuclear power plants and even though the word "nuclear" might scare you, there are no oil spills, no wars, no pollution, just the fear that we have not been educated in that field, and the "N" word scares us. Windpower and solar power are another alternative, just for your home. As far as fuel goes, the biodiesel plants that they are building will be history after this oil war is over. Another fleecing of America.
Want an electric car? Plan on spending an arm and a leg for that. Are we just becoming more mature and finally opening our eyes to what we used to just shrug off? Sigh, we can comment and voice our opinions till we're "blue in the face", but it will never help the human race.

Another favorite saying that I have; "Quit your bit_ _ _ _ and go for a walk. It clears the mind so you can face reality.

David you have all the answers.
there is still time to throw your hat into the ring, you could be our next PRESIDENT.
All our troubles would be over.
Gene in Wayland

Gene, he is "special" isn't he???

"nuclear"?

Geez, I see you folks didn't attend the George W. Bush school of spellin' and pronunciatin'.

That would be "nucular" (or is it "nuculer"?, or nuke-u-ler? Hmmm.)

Snowman,
If we don't start pumping our own oil, you may be paying $10 a gallon.

well, I think I have better answers than kicking butt and warmongering all over the place.

quite frankly, I have never seen so many satisfied with the situation, people in my life as I see here. You all must be pretty content with the way the country is being governed. There is no reason to continue on with all this hate and US superiority, imperialistic vision. War so we can keep our standard of living? You all better take a look around, cause that standard is dropping off the cliff.

Actually, Gene, I did write myself in the last election. I voted for Mickey Mouse 2 elections ago. Ralph Nader, and Ross Perot.

anyway, you guys have convinced me that its useless to say anything else around here. its been fun to actually get to know some of you a bit better. I didn't realize how divided we really are in this country. There is no way I could ever be swayed into believing the way some of you believe, and I'm sure it goes around the same way that you will never think the way I do.

I'm quite tired of the rhetoric..and the word games aren't even fun anymore.

So with that bye and good luck to you all. No matter what is said here, the crap will just keep on going..nothing will change anyway, so its just a waste of energy and time.

I'm pretty tired myself. I'm outta here too! One good thing that happened on this thread, I made friends with FJL, always knew you were a softie.

Believe all you want people, but there are always and I repeat, always, two sides to every story. Wish I could live in "La, La, Land" like some of you do.

David you sound like a fun guy , don't give up.
It's a lot of fun. Some Muslems still want to kill us and there is no gray area about 9/11, Ben Laden and his people and thats it.
Don,t leave us David.
Gene in Wayland

LOL Frnash!

By the way David, you'd have my vote!!! Don't quit. There are more people on your side than the other way around.

Talk to the Terrorists.. Author unknown.. sung to the tune of Talk to the Animals...

If we could talk to the terrorists
Learn their hopes and fears
Maybe we could find some common ground.

And when we talk to the terrorists
Surely they'll tell us how
Many Jews should die so they'll calm down!

If we just talk to the terrorists
Show how nice we are
Find a way that we could all agree

We could offer up some soverign soil
Maybe hundred dollar oil
What a neat achievement that would be

We could sit down and talk in fluent terroreize
With a slightly racist president Mamhoud
We could ask him what would make Iran less mad at us..
He'd say "kill yourselves, that'll do!"

If we sat down with that little nut,
Kim Jong little Il,
maybe see a movie, two or three
and take in forced stadium shows,
seacrest sandwiches, and concentration camps powered by Clinton nuclear reactors..

I'm sure that he'll play nice.......

look's like a lot of people detest Big Oil. Yes, they are making money. So are all of the people that have mutual funds, pensions, I.R.A.s, stocks, with Big Oil in their portfolios. The moral thing for those people, would be to divest themselves of all traces of Big Oil money in their stocks, etc. Then be morally free to bash Big Oil.

For those of you who think the "imperialist" attitude of the US at times is new---------it has been going on since WWII at least. We became the world's "savior" and none of our elected officials have the desire to change anything. They are continuing in that vein probably to keep tabs on as much of the world as they can. For exploitation? Perhaps.
We would not want some of the underdeveloped countries to band together and surprise us with some initiative, military or economic. Saying that does not mean exploitation is excused.

Why We Resist

By Chris Hedges

12/11/07 "TruthDig.com " --- The refusal to pay my taxes if we go to war with Iran, and the portion of my taxes spent on the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan if we do not cut off funding for these two conflicts, is not a means. It is an end. I do not know if my refusal, and the refusal of others, will be effective in halting these wars. All I know is that it is worth doing. The alternative, a complacency bred from cynicism and despair, is worse. Refusing to actively resist injustice and flagrant violations of international law, refusing to attempt to turn back the tide of American tyranny, is surrender. It is the death of hope.

Acts of resistance are moral acts. They begin because people of conscience can no longer tolerate abuse and despotism. They are carried out not because they are effective but because they are right. Those who begin these acts are few in number and dismissed by the cynics who hide their fear behind their worldliness. Resistance is about affirming life in a world awash in death. It is the supreme act of faith, the highest form of spirituality. We remember and honor the names of those who, solitary when they began, defied their age. Henry David Thoreau. Jane Adams. Dietrich Bonhoeffer. Mahatma Gandhi. Milovan Djilas. Andrei Sakharov. Martin Luther King. Václav Havel. Nelson Mandela. It is time to join them. They sacrificed their security and comfort, often spent time in jail and in some cases were killed. They understood that to live in the fullest sense of the word, to exist as free and independent human beings, meant to defy authority. When the dissident Lutheran pastor Dietrich Bonhoeffer was taken from his cell in a Nazi prison to the gallows, his last words were “this is for me the end, but also the beginning.”

Bonhoeffer, who returned to Germany from Union Theological Seminary in New York to fight the Nazis, knew that most of the citizens in his nation were complicit through their silence in a vast enterprise of death. He affirmed what we all must affirm. It did not mean he avoided death. It did not mean that he, as a distinct individual, survived. But he understood that his resistance, and even his death, was an act of love. He fought for the sanctity of life. He gave, even to those who did not join him, another narrative. His defiance condemned his executioners.

“Cast your whole vote, not a strip of paper merely, but your whole influence,” Thoreau wrote in “Civil Disobedience” after going to jail for refusing to pay his taxes during the Mexican-American War. “A minority is powerless while it conforms to the majority; it is not even a minority then; but it is irresistible when it clogs by its whole weight. If the alternative is to keep all just men in prison, or give up war and slavery, the State will not hesitate which to choose. If a thousand men were not to pay their tax-bills this year, that would not be a violent and bloody measure, as it would be to pay them, and enable the State to commit violence and shed innocent blood.”

Those who recognize the injustice of the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan and a war with Iran, who concede that these wars are not only a violation of international law but under the post-Nuremberg laws are defined as criminal wars of aggression, yet do nothing, have forfeited their rights as citizens. By allowing the status quo to go unchallenged they become agents of injustice. To do nothing is to do something. They practice a faux morality. They vent against war on the Internet or among themselves but do not resist. They take refuge in the conception of themselves as moderates. They stand on what they insist is the middle ground without realizing that the middle ground has shifted under us, that the old paradigm of left and right, liberal and conservative, is meaningless in a world where, to quote Immanuel Kant, those in power have embraced “a radical evil.”

“I must confess that over the past few years I have been gravely disappointed with the white moderate,” King wrote from another era as he sat inside a Birmingham jail. “I have almost reached the regrettable conclusion that the Negro’s great stumbling block in his stride toward freedom is not the White Citizen’s Councilor or the Ku Klux Klanner, but the white moderate, who is more devoted to ‘order’ than to justice; who prefers a negative peace which is the absence of tension to a positive peace which is the presence of justice; who constantly says: ‘I agree with you in the goal you seek, but I cannot agree with your methods of direct action’; who paternalistically believes he can set the timetable for another man’s freedom; who lives by a mythical concept of time and who constantly advises the Negro to wait for a ‘more convenient season.’ Shallow understanding from people of good will is more frustrating than absolute misunderstanding from people of ill will. Lukewarm acceptance is much more bewildering than outright rejection.”

This lukewarm acceptance, this failure to act, is the worst form of moral cowardice. It cripples and destroys us. When Dante enters the “city of woes” in the “Inferno” he hears the cries of “those whose lives earned neither honor nor bad fame,” those rejected by heaven and ••••, those who dedicated their lives solely to the pursuit of happiness. These are all the “good” people, the ones who never made a fuss, who filled their lives with vain and empty pursuits, harmless no doubt, to amuse themselves, who never took a stand for anything, never risked anything, who went along. They never looked too hard at their lives, never felt the need, never wanted to look.

We face a crisis. Our democratic institutions are being dismantled. We are headed for a state of perpetual war. We are paralyzed by fear. We will be stripped, if we do not resist, of our few remaining rights. To resist, while there is still time, is not only the highest form of spirituality but the highest form of patriotism. It is, if you care about what is worth protecting in this country, a moral imperative. There are hundreds of thousands who have died in the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan. This number would be dwarfed by a war with Iran, which could ignite a regional inferno in the Middle East. Not a lot is being asked of us. Compare our potential sacrifices with what is being inflicted on and demanded of those trapped in the violence in Iraq, Afghanistan and soon, perhaps, Iran. Courage, as Aristotle wrote, is the highest of human virtues because without it we are unlikely to practice any other virtue. Once we find courage we find freedom.

DebS-- You are right on about that!
I hear more & more & more each day calling in to "Air America" Progressive talk radio "where truth and common sense prevail" In the Detrot area it is 1310 on the AM dial Dearborn MI

DaveSou, thanks for that kick in the pants.

Dearborn Michigan largest Arab population in the state.

An al-Qaida group claims responsibility for twin suicide bombings in Algeria that killed dozens, including some U.N. staffers and children in a scool bus. More innocent lives lost that will be blamed on G.W by the left instead of al-Qaida..... ALGERIA,,,,it's spreading.........

Mikie, doesn't Dearborn have the largest Arab populstion in the States?

Kathy it probably does but I am just concerned with Michigan right now. I don't have the stats on the whole U.S. but Dearborn has a large Muslim population. The Caldeans are Arab also and live in that area, but they are Christian and their rights in Iraq are being violated. They are being killed if they wont convert to the Muslim religion. Entire families are being wiped out by the extremist. I don't feel comfortable discussing religion or politics, since I am not educated in that field. I served with the Third Cavlary and they are in Iraq now fighting, I belong to the alumni assoc. and read about the attrocities commited against the Christians. It is sad that some people hate so much that they will kill another just on religious priciples. Oh well I guess I should be in my shop and not bothering you all with my ideas.

Yes Michael, Where is the OUTRAGE by the left about all of the ATTROCITIES being commited by the terrorests. Where is the MORAL OUTCRY. Not a word. Not a whimper. Just Bush bashing, calling him Hitler and a murderer......Then we have Hedges, chastising the american people, not the terrorists, wanting us to "rise up and riot". Also wants us to "turn back the tide of American tyranny". Not a word about the terrorists.......... Funny how quiet the left can be when they want too...

Where is the OUTRAGE by the left about all of the ATTROCITIES being commited by the terrorests?

Where are the Attrocities of things that could still happen?

The U.S. government is in a frantic race to stop a weapons of mass destruction attack on an American city.

In the exclusive report's I get I find out things like these.
Futurist Dr. Marvin J. Cetron, who has consulted for the U.S. government, and in 1994 prepared a report for the Department of Defense warning that terrorists were planning to use commercial aircraft as guided bombs to strike major landmarks.
Cetron, working with some of the top experts in their fields, gives a surprising list of the most vulnerable targets today — featuring the 30 Most Unthinkable Targets.

He reveals the most diabolical plots for which people are least prepared.
The tragic reason why Cetron’s 1994 report was disregarded

How just four well-placed car bombs could cripple America’s crude-oil processing capacity and cost the U.S. $1.2 trillion

The dark secret that makes the North American power grid an easy target

The Boston Massacre: A small explosives-laden plane strikes a liquefied natural gas depot — and kills nearly 200,000

How anthrax, nerve gas, and even E. coli can be used as devastating weapons

The surprising reason Saddam Hussein faked having weapons of mass destruction

How U.S. and British agents thwarted a second 9/11 plot

The chilling terrorist scenario that would target major American theme parks

The real story behind the grenade attack on President Bush in Tbilisi, Georgia

Why the public knows just the tip of the iceberg” about terrorists

The worst case scenario - a suitcase nuclear weapon

The officials who form America’s front line against terrorist attacks

A frightening fact: China has lost 17 pounds of weapons grade uranium to thieves

How a carefully placed electromagnetic pulse bomb could severely damage the Internet

Khalid Sheikh Mohammed’s arrest and the turning point in the war on terror

The CIA’s high-tech tools for monitoring possible terrorists

The Empire State Building, the Panama Canal, Big Ben and other terrorist plots that were averted

Why 100 percent cargo inspection is impossible

FBI Director Robert Mueller’s biggest frustration

How regular folks could use cell phones to help fight terror

Other high probability targets: shopping malls, oil pipelines, schools and churches, freight trains, tunnels, and national parks

Just thought you might enjoy reading this while waiting for the daily page to come on today and be glad there is not much to worry about..David H

The only real prison is fear, and the only real freedom is freedom from fear.
Aung San Suu Kyi (1945 - )

If any one has destroyed the moral of this Country, it's the LEFT with there Tongues'
The Left evens blames George Bush for Katrina,
What are they calling him, GOD.
They wanted control of Congress, they have had it now for almost a year, What have THEY done.
Gene in Wayland

You are so right. It is time to stop the tongues of the left from hiding under the freedom of speech law and start doing what is done to those who commit treason.

WHEW!! What a lively discussion fueled by a lot of emotion. I would comment that this isn't about left or right... our problems stem from simple